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Arterial
Australia1039 Posts
On June 23 2012 08:44 Monsyphon wrote: Say I spawn top right on Antiga Shipyard, where should I send my first Overlord? I generally send it counterclockwise, where your overlord will go behind their main. | ||
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
My question is: Muta or Infestor? | ||
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AceLight
New Zealand220 Posts
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Monsyphon
Canada190 Posts
On June 23 2012 16:07 BatesC wrote: The Terran TvZ metagame has essentially become Marine/Marauder/Medivac while being extremely mobile on the map. My question is: Muta or Infestor? Both styles are perfectly fine, and is really up to you. Keep in mind that going muta means you want to have a longer mid-game, while infestor pushes towards a faster end-game composition. Ask yourself, "Do I want to have ling/bling/muta vs marine/tank, which is multitask heavy but safe to drops or a fast transition towards a hive composition while being vunerable to drops? " and you'll have the answer to your question | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On June 23 2012 16:07 BatesC wrote: The Terran TvZ metagame has essentially become Marine/Marauder/Medivac while being extremely mobile on the map. My question is: Muta or Infestor? It comes down a lot to preference, in general mutalisk builds lend themselves more toward counter attacking, and generally more active play. Infestors on the other hand are much more passive-oriented. It's my opinion that an infestor style should be slightly superior in theory, but mutas remain effective at the highest levels, just slightly more hit-and-miss. | ||
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They_
Japan62 Posts
I used to be high diamond on KR and now I want to be back on track. I also heard that zergs have been doing better than in the past because of the queen buff? Is the range buff that significant? :/ Most importantly, can someone give me some insight on the current metagame for each match up? Thanks. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 24 2012 00:56 They_ wrote: Hey all, I've just come back from a long hiatus and decided to spend some time with starcraft again. I used to be high diamond on KR and now I want to be back on track. I also heard that zergs have been doing better than in the past because of the queen buff? Is the range buff that significant? :/ Most importantly, can someone give me some insight on the current metagame for each match up? Thanks. Belial has good guides: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 (ZvP) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023 (ZvT) ZvT: The metagame has changed that Zergs are getting 5-6 Queens nowadays and use them primarily from any Hellion harass while spreading creep like mad and droning behind it. All metagames have been focused on end-game now, and hence why the community is vocal about it. Zerg want to get to end-game as soon as possible while Terran tries to deny that by constantly harassing and forcing resources and larvae spent on units to deal with drops and trying to end the game before the Zerg gets crazy amount of Brood Lords/Corruptors/Infestors. However, many Terrans still go Hellion, but instead of 2-4, they now mass them, some even go up to 8-12. If they go 2-4, they most likely just want to deny the creep spread as long as possible. Some even rely solely on Queens for defense, but that can be risky as the Terran can go Hellion/Marauder allin and really punish the greedy Zerg player. Some Terrans prefer Mech over bio nowadays in TvZ as they can turtle on 3-4 bases (especially on Daybreak) and just push out before Zerg reaches the end-game. Some Zergs even rush to Hive nowadays, while relying on T1 units to defend them from the Terran early-mid game onslaught. Also, since Terrans have discovered in order to keep up with the Zerg economy they have to play greedy as hell, they'll often put a third OC in their main to ramp up their SCV production. Zergs can punish a greedy Terran with a timing Ling/Bling/Roach timing attack, or just Ling/Roach if the natural ramp is too big (like Antiga's for example). Usual unit compositions are: Against bio/tank: ling/bling/muta - ling/bling/infestor Against mech: roach/ling for run-bys, but do not use too many lings as Blue Flame Hellions will rip through lings ZvP: Almost everyone goes Stephano's style, meaning, Ling/Roach max at 12mins on 3 bases (if the Protoss went FFE). Protoss can successfully rip you apart with the Immortal/Sentry allin which you MUST, again MUST engage constantly BEFORE the force reaches your third (most use Warp Prism for reinforcements, so you cannot snipe it). The reason why you must engage them before they reached your third is to force Force Fields, because they will kill you if Sentries are left unchecked. SG(Stargate) openings are also prevalent in ZvP. Usually, it is 1-2 Void Rays and 4-5 Phoenix who try to snipe your third/Queens as you do not get 5-6 Queens in ZvP. Also, many Protoss like to do early Zealot pressure on your third (as you get it as soon as you confirm that the Protoss did FFE), they send out 4-8 Zealots to snipe your third. Some Zerg players like to go pure Mutalisk/Ling, later on, just pure Mutalisk instead of Roaches, in order to pin the Protoss in his base while sniping everything you can. Usual unit compositions are: ling/roach stephano style/destiny's build ling/mutalisk ZvZ: Worst MU ever, to watch and to play. 3base Hive Ultralisk is a good build if you can survive potential allins with pure Roach/Mutalisk/Baneling busts etc, with ling/bling/infestor play, basically, you play ultra defensive until you get your first set of Ultras, while getting melee upgrades (both attack and armor) as you're rushing to Hive, getting a lot of spines at your natural and 3rd and just rush him in the end. | ||
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Kraelog
Belgium194 Posts
ZvZ: Sling/Bling are a rarity now, usually both players 15h15pool and build up roach/infestors with also the option of muta harass ZvP: Mass sentry/immortal is the new Toss fad, most likely developed to crush the 12min roach max. You can't make roaches against it and even mass ling is veeeery difficult since they have infinity forcefields. The only options I have so far discovered are DiMaga style Bling drops on the sentry's or superfast muta's and snipe the sentry's while they travel to your third. ZvT: Terran is having a hard time adjust to the queen range buff now that queen can hold off hellions very easily. The more popular response I've seen is pure marine/medivac into MMM or MMT. Mech with heavy banshee harass is also becoming more prevalent. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 23 2012 08:50 Arterial wrote: I generally send it counterclockwise, where your overlord will go behind their main. Against protoss I send it counter clockwise, so I can send my second ovie clockwise, and my first ovie goes over my third if they're not there! (3rd ovie to nat) Against terran always counter clockwise or you might lose it to an early rax. Against zerg always clockwise because it's slightly farther away than counter clockwise. | ||
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emperok
United States8 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 24 2012 03:59 emperok wrote: In the current metagame, what is the best way to respond to an e-block as Zerg? You just have to 15 pool and wait till it dies to take your expansion. This slows the terran build down a lot as well and isn't really worth it lol. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 23 2012 08:50 Arterial wrote: I generally send it counterclockwise, where your overlord will go behind their main. Though it's pretty much just preference either way, I strongly prefer sending it clockwise, so that I can check for an early CC, then hide behind the natural (assuming he's spawned immediately clockwise). I prefer to check for an expo to determine if I need to sac an overlord. Having that second overlord ready to sac doesn't seem to be a problem on antiga. My recommendation is to try both a few times and see which is more comfortable. | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
 how many fungals does it take to kill a roach with no upgrades? and with upgrades? Thanks! | ||
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Anacletus
United States733 Posts
On June 24 2012 05:14 Macpo wrote: just a quick question how many fungals does it take to kill a roach with no upgrades? and with upgrades? Thanks! Fungal growth does a total of 40 damage to armored units over 4 seconds.
Roaches have 145 health so it should take 4 fungals to kill a roach. Armor doesn't affect the amount of damage a unit takes from fungal. When burrowed roaches have 5 regen/second, so it will take double the amount of fungals considering fungal does 10 damage per second.
I also want to point out that in ZvZ fungals are not only used for dps. A huge portion of their usefullness is the positioning advantage you gain over your opponent by fungaling a block of roaches out of range to attack thus skewing the fight so more of your roaches are engaging against a fewer amount of his because some are held out of combat distance. | ||
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hersenen
Belize176 Posts
EDIT: Thanks Anacletus! | ||
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Anacletus
United States733 Posts
On June 24 2012 09:09 hersenen wrote: Hey guys where can I get some recent replays (reps that have the queen buff lincluded)? I downloaded all available Dreamhack replays but I want more... You can check out drop.sc and it will display replays by most recently updated, you can also filter them by player name to find your favorite players. This shows mostly ladder games though, but is still a good utility. GosuGamers is awesome as well and has tournament replays, I use this site quite often and find it quite easy to navigate. http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays Here's another good reference listing those that I listed as well as others.
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
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Anacletus
United States733 Posts
On June 24 2012 11:31 Najda wrote: What do you do lategame ZvT to defend from drops when all your infestors+broodlords are attacking the enemy base? Do you usually set up a bunch of spines+spores at your bases? or what? Yes, spines and spores are used to buy time for your lings to arrive to clean up drops. You should also consider leaving an infestor or two in key tech areas or mining bases. Here's a good read for dealing with drops. There is also a late game section which addresses your specific problem. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/General_ZvT_Strategy#Dealing_With_Drops | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
What do you do lategame ZvT to defend from drops when all your infestors+broodlords are attacking the enemy base? Do you usually set up a bunch of spines+spores at your bases? or what? Check out my ZvT guide, I talk about drops in an entire section! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023 ZvZ: Worst MU ever, to watch and to play. 3base Hive Ultralisk is a good build if you can survive potential allins with pure Roach/Mutalisk/Baneling busts etc, with ling/bling/infestor play, basically, you play ultra defensive until you get your first set of Ultras, while getting melee upgrades (both attack and armor) as you're rushing to Hive, getting a lot of spines at your natural and 3rd and just rush him in the end. I completely disagree! Watch Leenock vs violet MLG, or the many ZvZ's played recently in the GSL by Nestea, Symbol, and in the GSTL. ZvZ right now, as has been since about Nestea vs Losira finals, has been undergoing a complete revolution despite no patches really affecting it. The metagame has just been a complete roller coaster since those GSL finals, and it really saddens me when people say zvz is (incorrectly) a coinflip, or it's a boring match-up, and it really bothers me how ignorant every single popular caster is on it (Tastosis, Wolf, Khaldor, MrBitter, Rotterdam - although to be fair, none of them are zerg except mrbitter but hes not a gsl caster - for example, mocking someone going ling/infestor for not making roaches because they didnt understand what ling/ifnestor was, for some reason always saying that you can hold 10 pool with hatch first, that a 16 pool is somehow 'really greedy', etc). Much quicker than PvP, ZvZ has turned into a very macro oriented match-up - for example, my personal ZvZ average game length in 1.2k points masters, is 17:58 long. There's nothing coinflippy about the early game - get speed, then 4 banelings and you can reactively hold any pressure that comes your way. No micro really involved there, just get 4 banelings and you are fine as you reactively make more if you see lings stream out of the opponent's base. You can check out Blade5555's guide on ling/infestor in ZvZ, it's the recent metagame craze. Basically, instead of 2 base muta lair, you go 2 base double evo 1/1, lair, 2/2 and infestors. You mass spines if the opponent makes roaches, and when your infestors pop off of 2 base lair infestor with macro hatch, you secure your third. The more roach aggression the opponent does, the more spines and infestors you make, but the idea is to get hive going when your third is up and running, and go 3 base ultra to secure map control and take your fourth as you transition into broodlords. The 'standard', however, in ZvZ is as it's been for a few months now: ~40 evo, +1 missile ~50 roach warren, third secured with 4 banelings, 2nd gas (make sure he isn't roach/ling all-inning but instead going to lair or third before taking your own third) ~60-70 Lair (depending how greedy you want to be), 3rd and 4th gases eventually And from there react to what the opponent is doing. You should hold any 2 base lair all-in easily, but just make sure not to drone up your third until after you know what's going on. From there, you max out on roach/hydra and kill anyone who goes for infestors before hydras, and you go infestors first only if the opponent goes 2 base lair infestors/mutas. Then get hydras for a roach/hydra/infestor max, take fourth, and get hive, 3/3, pressure back and forth . The more infestors you make, the less broodlords you have and slower they come, but the less infestors you have, the harder roach pressure is to deal with. The more hydras you make, the better you do against mass roach and against infestors, but be careful, if you are slow or are behind, and you attack when the opponent has a good number of infestors, you will get hurt. Assuming an even game though, where you both go fast third, if you go roach/hydra, you will steamroll the opponent if he goes infestors before max. With good macro though, in lower levels you tend to see a lot more infestors because timings aren't exploited. ZvZ is an amazing match-up, but it really takes a long time before most people understand it. Recently, in high level ZvZ play, you ONLY see hatch first or greedy pool/hatch builds, and you never see ling/bane all-ins (and ling/bane aggression itself is rare), nor roach all-ins of any kind. The match-up has progressed a lot - unfortunately for lower level players though, you will still see a lot of this, as it's quite frankly, hard to hold if you don't know what to do. On a side note, the whole 'stephano style' of roach max is rarely done in ZvZ anymore. Even stephano himself doesn't do it, and does the new 'stephano style' of cutting roaches as much as possible, and going for 4 base, infestors, mass spines asap with 100+ drones and making 30+ spines while rushing hive, bl tech. Generally, infestors are what's most popular in ZvP - it seems a lot of maps just aren't really friendly for mutas right now (cloud kingdom, entombed valley, antiga) so they aren't as popular as they were in the older map pool, but they are still great on maps like, say, condemned ridge or daybreak. | ||
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Monsyphon
Canada190 Posts
What came into mind was a 14 pool 16 hatch build that starts off as if it was a zvp, where you get 2 sets of lings and a queen real quick, but then from there you take a gas for ling speed and banes, and then transition into normal zvz, as Belial has just described. Does this sound like a sound idea? What are some flaws or problems with this idea right off the bat? | ||
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