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ok I have a question for you that bugs me for weeks now, and I need an answer:
why is a fast third viable against Protoss FFE, but not viable against terran?
because like... what can a terran throw at you early on (regardless of gas opening or 1rax expo, if it's no 2rax)... marines without shield and stim, lol? hellions? and where can he reinforce from... his base? stalkers and zealots reinforced from an overlooked pylon are much MUCH more dangerous to a third than anything a terran can throw at you. HF trying to take out a third with hellions. so.. why is noone playing fast third vs T? like.. really really fast third at 21 or something.
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On June 22 2012 21:03 Mahtasooma wrote:
ok I have a question for you that bugs me for weeks now, and I need an answer:
why is a fast third viable against Protoss FFE, but not viable against terran?
because like... what can a terran throw at you early on (regardless of gas opening or 1rax expo, if it's no 2rax)... marines without shield and stim, lol? hellions? and where can he reinforce from... his base? stalkers and zealots reinforced from an overlooked pylon are much MUCH more dangerous to a third than anything a terran can throw at you. HF trying to take out a third with hellions. so.. why is noone playing fast third vs T? like.. really really fast third at 21 or something.
Hi there, i was discussing this in here a few pages ago, and ive just opened my thread, its still a BO in order but you might find it intresting as a place to start
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=347114
has some Ideas and questions about some of the hows and whens in it so feel free to have a look and let me know what you think, i have refined it a lil bit more from the BO there im now doing 3 45 hatch before queens then have 3 come up together to then double queen after to make the 6 queen wall that T's are QQ'ing about atm :/
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Thank you very much for your effort, but I', really looking for reasons and opinions from higher level players because virtually noone is doing that and I really can't come up for a reason as to WHY this is the case, because I'm figuring "if pros don't do it, it's probably not a good idea".
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On June 22 2012 21:03 Mahtasooma wrote:
ok I have a question for you that bugs me for weeks now, and I need an answer:
why is a fast third viable against Protoss FFE, but not viable against terran?
because like... what can a terran throw at you early on (regardless of gas opening or 1rax expo, if it's no 2rax)... marines without shield and stim, lol? hellions? and where can he reinforce from... his base? stalkers and zealots reinforced from an overlooked pylon are much MUCH more dangerous to a third than anything a terran can throw at you. HF trying to take out a third with hellions. so.. why is noone playing fast third vs T? like.. really really fast third at 21 or something.
Fast third is viable vs CC first opener, thats what i can say. In different settings it really depends on many factors.
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defending with just queens against hellions is not a good idea anyway.
They will drop 4 hellions on your main, and as you move your queens, the rest of the hellions will get in and fry everything.
been there, lost to that. now im back to ~28 gas+rden and make some roaches to defend the hellions, get the towers and allin if he is too greedy.
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On June 22 2012 22:45 ElPeque.fogata wrote:
defending with just queens against hellions is not a good idea anyway.
They will drop 4 hellions on your main, and as you move your queens, the rest of the hellions will get in and fry everything.
been there, lost to that. now im back to ~28 gas+rden and make some roaches to defend the hellions, get the towers and allin if he is too greedy.
By the time medivacs are out you don't have just queens defending. It has nothing to do with the queens you just overdroned
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On June 22 2012 21:03 Mahtasooma wrote:
ok I have a question for you that bugs me for weeks now, and I need an answer:
why is a fast third viable against Protoss FFE, but not viable against terran?
because like... what can a terran throw at you early on (regardless of gas opening or 1rax expo, if it's no 2rax)... marines without shield and stim, lol? hellions? and where can he reinforce from... his base? stalkers and zealots reinforced from an overlooked pylon are much MUCH more dangerous to a third than anything a terran can throw at you. HF trying to take out a third with hellions. so.. why is noone playing fast third vs T? like.. really really fast third at 21 or something.
The major diff i see is that by going FFE, P's delay their tech (gateway, core, WG) which a terran is not doing by going 1rax FE. Pushing out as P with gateways is almost not conceivable (baring any proxy 2gate play) so that's why we are almost free to take a 3rd if he goes FFE. Terran can assemble a force faster than a P off a FE build so that's why we can't go on a as early third.
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Marines without upgrades are still frikking scary off of creep.
If you think they're not your opponents aren't controlling well. You can't take a 4 min third against terran unless he cc's first.
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I searched a bit but couldn't find too much, I had a question about pylon block/canon rushes
Pretty much every P seems to be doing this now, and I can't stop it. Even when I see the probe, you can't catch it and kill it, workers move around the same speed. On top of that, if a pylon does go down, do I target the pylon, or the building canon? Because then the worker starts running around dropping more crap and I just get confused as to what order I should deal with those things. This is a 15p/15h build.
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On June 23 2012 00:43 Chillton wrote:
I searched a bit but couldn't find too much, I had a question about pylon block/canon rushes
Pretty much every P seems to be doing this now, and I can't stop it. Even when I see the probe, you can't catch it and kill it, workers move around the same speed. On top of that, if a pylon does go down, do I target the pylon, or the building canon? Because then the worker starts running around dropping more crap and I just get confused as to what order I should deal with those things. This is a 15p/15h build.
The probe should be the focus and main priority, but you can't let him complete the cannons either. You should try and get a few drones to land an attack or two for big dps on the probe when it moves close, but for the most part only have one drone chase the probe. I have found 4 to be the magic number of drones to shut down a building pylon/cannon. As soon as you see the cannon rush you should pull workers and react accordingly. In my opinion, in general attack the building cannon. If the probe stops to build another cannon he takes 2-3 hits from your drone chasing it.
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I don't ever see any high level players do this in ZvT, but I've found it to be a simple way to deal with drops: I simply leave 6-8 lings at every base behind the mineral line, and if a dropship comes, my lings have the luxury of picking off each marine as they drop one by one. Although my overall army is weaker by maybe 15 supply, it allows me to be aggressive without worrying about drops at my back, especially once I add a spine or spore in the mineral-floating stages of the mid-late game. Is there a particular reason this isn't a more popular approach to defending drops?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 23 2012 00:43 Chillton wrote:
I searched a bit but couldn't find too much, I had a question about pylon block/canon rushes
Pretty much every P seems to be doing this now, and I can't stop it. Even when I see the probe, you can't catch it and kill it, workers move around the same speed. On top of that, if a pylon does go down, do I target the pylon, or the building canon? Because then the worker starts running around dropping more crap and I just get confused as to what order I should deal with those things. This is a 15p/15h build.
You should always 14 pool-16 hatch against Protoss, especially on 2player maps, as he is definitely going to Pylon block your natural, also, you have the risk of him triple blocking the ramp (which is utter cheese, but Diamond players always do this, from what I've seen, 90% of Diamond players are cheesers - first 9 games against Diamond players=8 cheeses). I always have the following:
1 Drone chasing the Probe
1 Drone patroling down at the ramp
If he DOES decide to Cannon Rush the natural, I instantly pull most of my workers to deal with it.
Also, I punished a Protoss Cannon Rushing me, as I went 14p/16h (well, I ended up getting 21h at my third) and he even tried to Cannon Rush that. I just sent all my lings to his base as I knew he does not have any formidable defense, avoid the first cannon and straight up won the game. Protoss needs to severely delay their tech buildings if they are cannon rushing (Pylon-100 Minerals, Cannon-150 Minerals), since they want to expand behind it, Nexus-400, Forge-150 and a Cannon behind it, then they start to get the Gateway (150 Minerals). You can straight up try to punish the Protoss for playing such a cheese.
On June 23 2012 02:48 Hemingway wrote:
I don't ever see any high level players do this in ZvT, but I've found it to be a simple way to deal with drops: I simply leave 6-8 lings at every base behind the mineral line, and if a dropship comes, my lings have the luxury of picking off each marine as they drop one by one. Although my overall army is weaker by maybe 15 supply, it allows me to be aggressive without worrying about drops at my back, especially once I add a spine or spore in the mineral-floating stages of the mid-late game. Is there a particular reason this isn't a more popular approach to defending drops?
Because when the drops become the backstabber, you should have spines at your bases regardless of having an army there. And when you're on 4-5 bases, if you have 8 lings per base, that's around 30 lings just sitting back, and that's a whole flank attack on his main army. Most Zerg players cannot afford to have units lying around as when they engage the Terran stronghold (usually in the middle of the map), as they are trying to get map control back and you want to come in from every possible side to reduce the Siege Tank firepower in one direction only. Then roll in Banelings (assuming he is Marine/Tank/Medivac) and crush him, with Mutas/Infestors following up.
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On June 23 2012 02:48 Hemingway wrote:
I don't ever see any high level players do this in ZvT, but I've found it to be a simple way to deal with drops: I simply leave 6-8 lings at every base behind the mineral line, and if a dropship comes, my lings have the luxury of picking off each marine as they drop one by one. Although my overall army is weaker by maybe 15 supply, it allows me to be aggressive without worrying about drops at my back, especially once I add a spine or spore in the mineral-floating stages of the mid-late game. Is there a particular reason this isn't a more popular approach to defending drops?
I do something a little different then you (obviously not a pro either) but I got the idea from sen. I leave a group of lings and make a couple banelings at two bases at the most (main can normally cover main/nat/third pretty easily) and a group at the fourth. Not a lot, just 10 and 2 banelings or something and then obviously spines. I have found this incredibly effective zvt and makes it much easier to deal with drops ^_^.
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On June 23 2012 04:12 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 02:48 Hemingway wrote:
I don't ever see any high level players do this in ZvT, but I've found it to be a simple way to deal with drops: I simply leave 6-8 lings at every base behind the mineral line, and if a dropship comes, my lings have the luxury of picking off each marine as they drop one by one. Although my overall army is weaker by maybe 15 supply, it allows me to be aggressive without worrying about drops at my back, especially once I add a spine or spore in the mineral-floating stages of the mid-late game. Is there a particular reason this isn't a more popular approach to defending drops? Because when the drops become the backstabber, you should have spines at your bases regardless of having an army there. And when you're on 4-5 bases, if you have 8 lings per base, that's around 30 lings just sitting back, and that's a whole flank attack on his main army. Most Zerg players cannot afford to have units lying around as when they engage the Terran stronghold (usually in the middle of the map), as they are trying to get map control back and you want to come in from every possible side to reduce the Siege Tank firepower in one direction only. Then roll in Banelings (assuming he is Marine/Tank/Medivac) and crush him, with Mutas/Infestors following up.
Sure I'll have spines, but I remember seeing calculations in terms of a spine trying to kill a marine/marauder being healed by a medivac, and it takes it an eon to take care of one simple unit out of the 8 that can be dropped. I've never seen a high-level drop play get shut down simply by static Zerg defense, and I'd much rather be short 30 lings than 30 drones in the lategame.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Spines aren't there to clear the drop, they are there to buy you time.
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On June 22 2012 23:20 Clarity_nl wrote:
Marines without upgrades are still frikking scary off of creep.
If you think they're not your opponents aren't controlling well. You can't take a 4 min third against terran unless he cc's first.
Yeah you hit the nail on the head. Fast third dies to strong marine pressure, and even with the buff, your queens won't save you. Then there's marauder-hellion that will probably kill you, too. Zerg takes gas earlier vs terran (compared to vP) simply due to the strength of unupgraded marines and hellions and the quicker timing at which terran can hit, we need tech to handle their basic units and we need it fast enough that a fast third puts you in danger to those attacks.
As for fast third against CC first.. I personally find that it stretches teraan thin enough than a baneling transition does serious damage, terran at that point has gotten so greedy that you don't need to out-greed him, you can also punish him.
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Hi there,
A quick question which is a follow up to the previous post. I've recently been promoted to platinum (on EU servers), I am doing relatively good, but ZvT which was my strongest suit became my lowest. It happened as the same time as the queen buff. Many terrans dropped the good old hellion harass for a gas-less fast expand with one / two rax and one or a few bunkers, expecting me to spend my supply toward queens while they macro.
As I am usually a macro player, I tend to go for a quick 3rd myself. But, to give some variety to my playstyle, what kind of bust is strong against that without going all in. I am basically looking for something that would force them to, at least, lift the CC and prevent mining there for some time. I thought about taking 1 or 2 gas as soon as I am sure they don't take gas themselves (sacrificing the drone scout to do so) and go with a sling/bling bust on the bunker.
But if someone has a more precise and working BO or/and replay for this scenario i'm interested. Not being a big fan of roaches in ZvT, I'd like to find something that doesn't involve them except if it's really really good.
Thanks 
edit: also my usual opener in ZvT, is well, very standard. 15 hatch, 15 pool, then usually 4 queen. I also do a 3 queen opener with 1 gas depending on scouting.
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How do you defend cheese? I'm 14 14 against 10 pools that don't even pull their drones and I'm still losing. What exactly am I supposed to be doing?
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On June 22 2012 21:03 Mahtasooma wrote:
ok I have a question for you that bugs me for weeks now, and I need an answer:
why is a fast third viable against Protoss FFE, but not viable against terran?
because like... what can a terran throw at you early on (regardless of gas opening or 1rax expo, if it's no 2rax)... marines without shield and stim, lol? hellions? and where can he reinforce from... his base? stalkers and zealots reinforced from an overlooked pylon are much MUCH more dangerous to a third than anything a terran can throw at you. HF trying to take out a third with hellions. so.. why is noone playing fast third vs T? like.. really really fast third at 21 or something.
Because of the hellion more or less. you can't protect your third and natural from hellion runbys.
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Say I spawn top right on Antiga Shipyard, where should I send my first Overlord?
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EPT
