EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 290
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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learning88
United States160 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Another question. What unit compositions should I be having in ZvZ - early, mid, and late ZvT - early, mid, and late ZvP - early, mid, and late Thanks! yea that's a terrible question. that game is not like that at all. Check out my zvt and zvp threads as well. zvz early - ling/bane into banes and a couple roaches to take third (need roaches to take third, OR you can go mutas/infestors but that means you need lair before third, generally in zvz you take third before lair, like in all match-ups). You secure third with 4 banes and some lings at 45+, but you keep the third by making roaches after 50+ drones to make sure no all-in off lair/third kills you (you cant take third if they are roach/ling all-inning with 30 or less drones, so obviously check for that first, unless you go 2 base lair style, which just hard counters 2 base roach all-ins) Midgame - mutas/infestor ling + spines to secure third, or banes into roaches. You can stay on infestor/muta tech into 3 base ultra, or you can go roach/hydra into 4 base roach/hydra/infestor. Dont go infestors before hydras unless the opponent goes 2 base lair, in which case you need infestors (either against 2 base infestor play or 2 base muta). lategame - if you made lots of roaches, infestors on 4 base, hive started for 3/3 (dont throw down spire when starting hive because you cant go broods that quickly). You should slooowly add broodlords, as the game should be roach/hydra/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor and going broods too quickly gets owned by mass roach counterattacks, it's very progressive. If the opponent goes 3 base ultra, you will probably need to go ultra/infestor yourself and cut roaches, that hasn't been figured out yet in the current metagame though. if you didn't make many roaches, then you will need ultras on 3 base to secure your fourth as well as deny the opponent bases. Eventually, one way or another, you will transition into broodlord/infestor into pure broodlord/corruptor with only 1-4 infestors. Pure broodlods/corruptor owns broodlord/infestor, but only when you have just a critical mass of broodlords that no infestor can get close enough to FG or spam ITs under you in a threatening way, so you can back off if he spams It and then push back when he has no energy. But that is soooo rarely seen by most people. 99.8% of games are won in the roach/hydra vs roach/hydra stage, and if it goes past that, a small amount in the roach/hydra/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor, and then a small amount in broodlord/infestor vs broodlord/infestor. ZvT - ling/bane with late upgrades or double up'd lings with late baneling nest (or roaches instead but later lair, more drones earlier third), into 3 base muta/infestor. You can either go ultras if you make just a couple mutas/infestors, and then broodlord/corruptor/infestor, or you can go straight into broodlord/corruptor/infestor if you make lots of muta/infestor. Ie - if you stay on lair tech a long time until you are finally on 4+ bases, you can afford to go straight to bl/infestor, otherwise you will need ultras. benefits to both styles. zvp - ling/roach on 3 base (or muta/infestor on 2 base) into mutas/infestors/mass roach style (which may or may not include things like hydras, baneling rain, or even infestors). If you dont make many roaches, you can go ultras symbol-style, otherwise you will need to use mutas or spine/infestor/corruptor to deal with the 3+ colossi 3 base toss push before you have broodlords. Then you will need broodlord/infestor. Going ultras in zvp is a very new thing though, but the idea is instead of making lots of roaches as well as muta/infestor, you make very few infestors as soon as toss goes for 3rd base and no more roaches (still need to get roach speed in case he goes 2 base though), then rush hive while making lings instead of roaches for ground army, get NP and ultras before he push comes (contrasted to not having broodlords when he does push, but using mutas/mass spine+infestor+corruptor/mass roach to buy time). | ||
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repulsive
Canada27 Posts
I know roaches should be in front, hydras behind. But what about ling,infestor,baneling,ultras? Do I just 1a? Also what are the suggested hotkeys. Typically I do 1 for ling,ultra,baneling, 2 for air units if any. 3 for infestor Also I have problem spending my money... I tend to float a lot of minerals when trying to go for ultras. Should I just pool them all into lings? Also ... what is the best method for creep spreading? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Otherwise, you should watch replays of pro players to see what they do and get your question answered in 5 minutes, which is less time than it would take for me to write a response to you... Using patrol is a great way to split up your army as well. For example, if terran is pushing westward toward you, patrol north/south and a balled up army is instantly well spread out. A-move or move command then a-move as necessary, the larger the patrol route and more time you give it to fan out the better. Go in unit tester and play around with ctrl, shift, and ctrl+shift in combination with right click and left clicking on units in a balled up army of multiple unit types to learn how the mouse works. Using that, you can do things like ctrl+left clicking on a baneling in the army to select all of them so you can move them in the front, or ctrl+left clicking on a baneling in the portait box in the bottom middle, and have them all selected so you can move them up to the front... You could also of course spread out your units, boxing over a portion and set up a flank (you can even still 1a as they are all are on the same control group and are equidistant from the enemy army). In fights, pros tend not to use hotkeys, but will instead box over units to control them (for example, they dont put lings on 1 and banes on 2, instead, they 1-right click move command, then 1a when got a surround, then quickly box over the banelings, even if they get a bunch of lings in that box, and move command them past so they dont blow up on those siege tanks they are about to run into). Spend hours in unit tester. Hours. | ||
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silentdecay01
United States106 Posts
 heLp) Dim lvl zerg, Been away for a bit. my zvz has been really bad latelyWhat is currently the flavor openerin zvz, I notice in pro lvl gm/master on Korean ladder zvz they open 14 pool 15 hatch, is that the way they open now? I think I'm playing to old fasion with 15 hatch or 14/14 pool/gas I'm a macro player, rather have a good macro game while able to hold chesse, I been having issue with +1 roach all ins on 2 bases, | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
14/14, hatch first, any opening is fine, especially in anything under code a level. +1 roach all-in should not be a problem. That's not really a build that anyone does. If you are losing to roach/ling all-ins, then basically if anyone makes a roach before 50 supply, that should be setting off huge alarm bells in your head that you are being all-inned (send in a speedling when your speed kicks in... overlord at natural, ivf you overlord sac into main). If they dont make a lair or third by 50 supply, that should be a clue that they are doinga roach/ling all-in as well... as well as no early ling or ling/bane aggression, or a really empty mineral line compared to your full 2 base saturation around 50 supply. Just go 2 base lair mutas or infestors or even mass speed roach and hold with 4+ spines and speedlings and banelings and then you have a huge tech advantage and should autowin with counterattack. Standard play in zvz right now is fast third taken ~50 supply with 4 banelings, then go up to 55-65 supply then lair, use speedroaches to secure it vs 2 base all-ins like mass speedroach (you shouldnt drone up your third much after taking it and only make roaches vs mass roach or infestors vs muta/infestos... but 2 base mass speedroach is not really seen at all in high level play... but for a reason, you should hold it easily with fast third... but just saying). 2 base infestor into thirdmass spine/infestor/ling into 3 base ultras (and then the standard bl/infestor into pure bl/corruptor, as is standard) is becoming oddly common. | ||
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silentdecay01
United States106 Posts
Basicly they blindly it seems alot of times as I deney scouting pretty well, they assume I'm teching @ lair with infestors and it around that time. My roach count is always lower, I have 1/1 when he hits. I'm only Dim lvl on North america so prob not to common in higher leagues, But almost every zvz i been playing they end up cutting drones very early and just alling on 2 base with a absurd amount of roaches. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
A +1 roach all-in is just late. You should have +1 done or lair even done, as well as a huge econ to easily mass spines.You should only lose to any sort of roach/ling all-in if you make a third hatch. You should always have an overlord over the zerg opponent's mineral line. if he didn't take any gas or third, and he clearly has way less drones than you have at your mineral line (if you aren't pro enough to count, just compare his vs yours), then be worried. Roaches made before 50 supply, even 60 supply really, is 100% an all-in as well (unless you see a third and roaches, then it's okay, but a third is really easy to spot....). Ling or an overlord by his third, overlord by his natural. No extra gases taken at natural and no third base taken by 50 supply, means he isn't going fast third or 2 base lair. Which means he is 2 base roach/ling all-in. Cancel that third, make 4 gas and lair yourself, and mass spines. You should really, really not have 1/1.... why in the world would you have 1/1. First off, 2/0 is WAY better than 1/1 roaches (2/0 roaches SMASH 1/1 roaches), and you should not be making a 2nd evo until shortly before lair is done (and even then, this is only when you clearly knwo what the opponent is doing). That's why you are losing. Why in the world would you have 1/1. And also, there is no way in hell you are going to have more roaches when you spent the last 9 minutes making drones and tech, while he spent only 4 minutes making drones, and then 5 minutes on roaches. He literally has a 5 minute head start on you. That's ridiculous. There is no way you are going to have enough roaches (especially if you got upgrades, and a good roach/ling all-in has no upgrades, you are just losing to bad people... which makes me really think macro is your problem, as well as terrible scouting). You need to hold with mass spines and speedlings. Now yes, he could just turn away when seeing 5+ spines and take his third. But you have 20 drones ahead of him, and while 20 drones may be roughly equal to a quicker third, the difference is you should have just an overwhelming tech advantage with a lair on 50 drones vs 25 drones on 3 base. That's why you need to go 2 base lair. Dim? diamond? roach/ling all-in used to be common 2 years ago, and is probably still common at lower levels (not common in higher levels though, but once in a while to make sure people are honest). And no one gets +1 with it, that just makes the attack super late and bad. it's very simple. As long as you dont take your third, and youve been droning properly, you'll hold it. You'll see he actually made roaches before third base (that's really it - not even roaches before 50 supply, just roaches before third base), because you sacrificed 2 speedlings into his base or sent in an overlord... you'll go "OH SHIT", plant 5 spines, and make a ton of speedlings. Roaches are slow. The spines will be done on 90% of maps by the time he arrives, and you hold it easily (you need to morph banes if he morphs banes, which is why most people dont morph banes at all with roach/ling, because it's stupidly easy to beat with defensive banes, but just saying why you never see it). You are probably macro'ing poorly. Also. seriously. really, really easy to scout. roaches before a third base is taken. roaches made before 60 supply. Your overlord by his natural (you DO keep an overlord by his natural mineral line or by his gas, RIGHT? EVERY pro does this btw... for a reason) sees he suspiciously has no third base OR extra gas by 50 supply. If he took gas at nat, that's 2 base 4 gas lair muta/infestor/something bad but isn't roach/ling all-in, or took a third base, it's not a roach/ling all-in. If he still hasn't taken gas at nat and has no third, or has an oddly smaller drone count than you do, it's a roach/ling all-in. | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
1) What is the earliest warpgate timing that can hit me if they open forge Fe? And what if they open gate expand? 2) When they open gate expand, they often do some harass with 2 zealots or 1 zealot 1 stalker or even 2 zea 1 stalker. What's the best way to react? Btw, i use the ling bane dimaga style, so i don't make roaches, i get fast gas after third and speed when 100gas. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
2. Maps like shakuras with tight choke to natural, single spine. Otherwise, you need speedlings. Really, you need to get gas ASAP against gateway expands. Since 14/14 is terrible against FFE, that's just the coinflip you are taking - gasless 14 pool is better against FFE, 14/14 is better against gateway expands because then they cannot go 1 gate FE against you nor can they do stalker pressure. But if they went gateway expand and you went gasless, the sooner you get gas, the better. If you get it before expansion, you can safely get ling speed. If you get it after expansion, you will just be forced to make a spine in your main then walk it to your natural if toss chrono's a stalker. On a map with a choke like Shakuras, just use queen micro and make it in natural and dont bother with gas (against stalker pressure that is). On maps wide open like XNC or Dual sight (i know, bad maps), you need ling speed asap and a spine made pre-emptively in main before natural pops. However, I Strongly recommend you get gas before expo against gateway expands, if you can find out that fast. So you can get ling speed in time to easily stop 1 base play, as well as deny stalker pressure. But you know, its up to you. Just see if they are chrono'ing a stalker with your initial ling scout or with drone scout maybe, whatever.You know.... play the game. tldr 1 spine on maps with choke, ling speed on wider open maps, if you didnt open ling speed you will just have to micro with a queen, maybe even a spine made pre-emptively, until speed kicks in. its a trade-off, play the game, watch to see if he sends a stalker by having watch towers or ling in front of his base and if he chronos his gateway get ready. roaches would not work either way, and i dont know why you are telling me about dimaga ling/bane style. That's like saying "i play mass broodlord style, how do i stop 6 pools?". like... play against it. By the way, if someone opens gateway, only take third after Toss takes his natural, and then, you NEED ling speed before taking your third, AND you need to make a roach warren when taking third in case of sentry/zealot pressure. My guide talks about all of this... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 | ||
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Asolmanx
Italy141 Posts
Do you suggest that i make a roach warren when i see gateway first or no gas at natural, and then, after holding the allin, transition into ling bane? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
again, my zvp guide talks about this. i literally talk about this is in my post right above you. I know it's a little different what you are saying, but I'm telling you it's not. You need ling speed against gate openings. Then take third after he takes natural. Sure you should re-root your spine to more useful locations that are more likely to be attacked... Make as few lings as possible, but if you don't have speed, your going to have to make a ton. Thats why you need speed. Leave queens to inject. You need to make a roach warren when taking third due to sentry/zealot pressure. I guess to really get into the nuances of what your opponent is doing though... you could also just get the gas a little later, since you really want it vs stalkers... but you should really get speed first, and learn how to be greedy when you have a better grasp against gateway openers. You can handle this zealot aggression with roaches, but you need to make a quick roach warren. You could also just do a 2 base all-in like roach/ling all-in reactively, like 35 roach warren nestea style all-in with speed. I mean theres a reason you dont see pros do that build. But you should only make the roach warren if you see no expo by 5:30 (which is not the case here), or when taking the third. It sounds like you aren't making that roach warren either, so you also suffer. | ||
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DeaDHazza
England5 Posts
I would like to ask what the best reaction to a Protoss wall in (at the bottom of your ramp, with 3 pylons and then mass cannons behind that) assuming you've done a 14pool 16hatch. I have lost to these annoying cheeses repeatedly recently, mostly because I don't know what to do when the pylons go up. Most of the times it happens to me, I just nydus, but the protoss predicts it because it's one of the only things I can do on one base, then they get vision on of their whole base, preventing any nyduses finishing in their base. | ||
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repulsive
Canada27 Posts
On June 20 2012 13:31 Belial88 wrote: ^ Use boxing over parts of your army instead of a hotkey to split and maneuver your army in battles (unless you are literally MKP and can micro each individual unit, even most pros, including MKP, will often box 2-3 units sometimes as opposed to micro'ing individual units - pulling back 3 roaches that are hurt is better than nothing at all, much better). Otherwise, you should watch replays of pro players to see what they do and get your question answered in 5 minutes, which is less time than it would take for me to write a response to you... Using patrol is a great way to split up your army as well. For example, if terran is pushing westward toward you, patrol north/south and a balled up army is instantly well spread out. A-move or move command then a-move as necessary, the larger the patrol route and more time you give it to fan out the better. Go in unit tester and play around with ctrl, shift, and ctrl+shift in combination with right click and left clicking on units in a balled up army of multiple unit types to learn how the mouse works. Using that, you can do things like ctrl+left clicking on a baneling in the army to select all of them so you can move them in the front, or ctrl+left clicking on a baneling in the portait box in the bottom middle, and have them all selected so you can move them up to the front... You could also of course spread out your units, boxing over a portion and set up a flank (you can even still 1a as they are all are on the same control group and are equidistant from the enemy army). In fights, pros tend not to use hotkeys, but will instead box over units to control them (for example, they dont put lings on 1 and banes on 2, instead, they 1-right click move command, then 1a when got a surround, then quickly box over the banelings, even if they get a bunch of lings in that box, and move command them past so they dont blow up on those siege tanks they are about to run into). Spend hours in unit tester. Hours. I dont think you understood my question. I'm asking what kind of formation should my units be in when I engage. I'm not asking how to move units around. Unless... you're telling me it doesn't matter as long as I attack from multiple directions. | ||
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Verax
Sweden180 Posts
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Maxamix
Canada165 Posts
On June 21 2012 01:46 DeaDHazza wrote: Hello I would like to ask what the best reaction to a Protoss wall in (at the bottom of your ramp, with 3 pylons and then mass cannons behind that) assuming you've done a 14pool 16hatch. I have lost to these annoying cheeses repeatedly recently, mostly because I don't know what to do when the pylons go up. Most of the times it happens to me, I just nydus, but the protoss predicts it because it's one of the only things I can do on one base, then they get vision on of their whole base, preventing any nyduses finishing in their base. The best answer is to not let it wall you up. If you see a probe down there (which you should with your OV) makeyou rally you 15-16 th drone down there to prevent the wallin to complete ... but if you get walled in and you were going for a 14p-16h, cancel the hatch if's it down, you are not going to save it. You can try the drone drilling thing, which is to take your drone, right click on a mineral patch at your natural, and once they are all stacked up, you attack the pylon. They will all attack at once, and you rince repeat this... If you don't feel like going this way, the i would just go for a late 7RR or some nydus.. There is another responce that i need to test more before actually reommanding it. It involves two spines as soon as you see the pylons go down and creepspreading instead of injecting when your queen pops, abusing high ground to take the pylons without getting fired by the cannon since you have high ground. But like i said i require more testing with that before actually reommending it (there is a lot of variables map dependant...) | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
just go 14 pool, send down 2 drones at 15 supply and build one more drone to 16.one drone patrols at the bottom of your ramp so he cant wall off, the other one moves immediately to your 3rd and builds a hatch. send your ovi from natural to your 3rd so you see potential cannon rushes. if he doesnt build a pylon at your natural and keeps his probe at your natural keep patroling until your lings are out. if he builds a pylon at your natural or leaves with the probe move your patroling drone back in main to mine. then just go 15 ovi, 15 1 pair of lings, 16 queen and expand with the next 300 and make a queen at your 3rd.dont transfer any drones to your 3rd. you will be slighty oversaturated for some time, but keep droning in main and transfer drones at natural when hatch finishes. if main and natural are saturated rally to 3rd. this way you dont lose mining time by transferring drones to 3rd. | ||
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Keyas
United States1 Post
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 21 2012 04:16 Verax wrote: Hey so ive been demolished by all the protoss cause of their new shiny immortal twobase allin, how can i defend that ? You're not going to like the answer... The answer is going to be better creep spread, and engaging in front of his base or at the middle of the map. If he gets to the front of your base with 2-3 immortals as he warps in stuff it's usually too late if they have decent forcefields. On June 21 2012 05:57 Keyas wrote: I was looking for zerg builds for sc2 and I couldn't find a really good place to get the info... I did find this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=73314, but it is for BW... is there something that is written in the same style as that, because I really liked how it was written and it would be helpful if it was SC2... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023 No zvz ones yet but I imagine one is in the works. The best way to learn however, is to play a ton and if you're ever lost just get a pro replay pack. In general it's much better to at least have some idea of why it's something is good instead of it getting spoonfed, although directly copying a pro's build and learning why it's good is perfectly fine too. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
http://drop.sc/201076 This should be the game in which I lost to it, along with Gateway units as he used Warp Prism for reinforcements, I could not stop it, otherwise, I try to snipe pylons with lings. After this game, if I sense an all-in coming my way, I mass up Spines at my third (if I scout 3-4 Immortals, or even 6-7 gates), I throw crisis-mode spines (5-6), usually, it can actually hold the pressure off. My macro was a bit off that game and I should have engaged him before he reached my third, but I did not have enough units to do so. I can hold off a 7gate allin, but with Immortals added to the mix, they can be a pain in the ass. Especially if there are 3-4 of them. Also, any way you can make a guide for ZvZ? Sure there are a lot of "IFs" and "BUTs", but a guide with general build orders should do. I usually go Hatch first if I scout my opponent doing 14 pool or Hatch first. Thanks in advance  | ||
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