EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 288
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Alex-Berker
United Kingdom117 Posts
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
We need to get a build order or some timings on Dimaga's ling/bling drop ZvP. He just demolished Naniwa with it. | ||
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Vralaren
Sweden130 Posts
On June 19 2012 03:22 BatesC wrote: Fuck guys... We need to get a build order or some timings on Dimaga's ling/bling drop ZvP. He just demolished Naniwa with it. I agree! But we also need a solid counter to the immortal pushes that just raped our god, Stephano T.T | ||
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
On June 19 2012 03:54 Vralaren wrote: I agree! But we also need a solid counter to the immortal pushes that just raped our god, Stephano T.T Ha ya, this tournament is turning a lot of tables in the matchup Im curious how Dima's style actually works against it, will probably find out if he gets the finals | ||
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Kluey
Canada1197 Posts
On June 19 2012 03:54 Vralaren wrote: I agree! But we also need a solid counter to the immortal pushes that just raped our god, Stephano T.T Dimaga's baneling drop seems like a strong counter to it. You can instantly kill the sentries which are the core of that push. | ||
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SnetteL
Belgium473 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=278534 Change the macro hatch for a third I guess, back in the day maps were smaller, there was more cheese and thirds weren't as easy to hold. | ||
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
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DW-Unrec
492 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 19 2012 04:41 BatesC wrote: It's going to suck when dima's build is countered a week from now I actually think there are ways for it not to be so easily countered. I think there should always be a roach warren just to handle 7 gate all ins or that archon/zealot. I feel that would be strong so that if your opponent is blindly (or calculating) counters the build you can just make roaches and not die to it. | ||
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
On June 19 2012 08:46 blade55555 wrote: I actually think there are ways for it not to be so easily countered. I think there should always be a roach warren just to handle 7 gate all ins or that archon/zealot. I feel that would be strong so that if your opponent is blindly (or calculating) counters the build you can just make roaches and not die to it. True true, as they learn to counter it we learn to expand it. Should be fun to mess around with. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On June 19 2012 04:26 SnetteL wrote: I used a similar ling bling style a year ago. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=278534 Change the macro hatch for a third I guess, back in the day maps were smaller, there was more cheese and thirds weren't as easy to hold. I used that style as well. Morrow popularized a ling/bane/drop style a little over a year ago. Day9 even did a "steal this build" on it: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJTuR4yEmxs). I played the strategy out until the new year. It stopped working around that time because the counter to mutas (which was REALLY popular at the time) also countered baneling drop while blink stalkers and high templar cut apart lings easily. It was most popular when toss just sat on two base and constructed a colossus-based deathball. The build certainly had its charms: banerain could wreck a probe line instantly and attacking a third while dropping the main almost guaranteed toss would lose a base. Dimaga's execution seemed similar to the way Morrow adapted his style when 3 base openers became the new metagame. He had an early third, two evos for upgrades, bane nest for attacks, and a roach warren in case of two base all-ins. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this build is not a "beginner's build". Coordinating baneling drops with ling flanks is EXTREMELY micro-intensive. All the while you NEED to hit injects since lings are so larva-intensive. If a beginner STILL wants to learn the style I suppose no one can stop them, but it would definitely be better to learn a more established strategy to master mechanics. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
what's the most common ZvZ cheese against 15h? 10 pool, drone to 12, pull 8 of 12 drones, single spine by mineral line and rally lings constantly. 10 pool is blind, but you should be worker scouting to see if it's hatch first or not, to see if you should grab gas and 2nd queen to transition into normal game without making any lings, or all-in. That's the only zvz cheese against hatch first that works (that and 10 pool baneling, check style). 14/14 ling/bane all-in is terrible. There's a reason no one does it at high level play anymore. On maps with ramps it doesnt work, and the queen buff made it much worse (although it's not like it was necessary to stop this all-in anyways). Unless the map has no ramp to main, like TDA or belshir, on those maps never hatch first and always ling/bane all-in reactively to hatch first. I'd like some help on positioning your army and scouting, more specifically; should I be active with my lings? Is it good to be inactive with your lings early game? And finally, how do I deal with early Banshees? I played two games today and 6 banshees absolutely destroyed me, even if I had spore crawlers with extra queens. I'll edit this with a replay later, but I remember that I was destroyed by drops in my main and didn't scout him. On that, how do I stop drops v t? or P, I was absolutely demolished by warp prism harass, in fact I'm having problems with drops in general. Thanks in advance. Of course. In both of my guides, I talk about lots of spines ZvP and patrolling baneling in ZvT + small numbers of spines, so that you can be active with your army. Having to pull back your army just because of a drop/small harass like prism means your opponent knows where your army is, and your entire army is suddenly useless (that's 20k/20k if you have 20 mutas, that is temporarily in the trash, for example, or maybe a little less than that considering you kill a drop but lose a muta or two, etc, but you get the point - you need the opponent fearing your army always, you need to always threaten a counterattack, et cetera). early banshees is 1 spore at outer bases and 2 extra queens. When you realized he was making more than 2 banshees you should have had made a second spore at outer bases and more queens... why wasn't your tech out either? mutas/infestors. If it was a 1 base terran, then you should ahve made way more queens right away fearing an all-in, and made 2-3 spores per base as soon as you realize it's double starport... | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On June 19 2012 08:46 blade55555 wrote: I actually think there are ways for it not to be so easily countered. I think there should always be a roach warren just to handle 7 gate all ins or that archon/zealot. I feel that would be strong so that if your opponent is blindly (or calculating) counters the build you can just make roaches and not die to it. Yea, when morrow used to do this style in every ZvP, he always made blind roach warrens but never made roaches. | ||
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Sadform
United Kingdom79 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 19 2012 17:37 Sadform wrote: Idra was doing this ling/bling style on his stream about 2 months ago now. I have copied it off that and it is actually really effective. I lost loads at the start because it is quite hard to pull off. Overall I personally find the 12 roach max better. There are so many ways to incorporate drops in ZvP, whether you're maxing out with roach/ling, roach/hydra, or ling/bane. I almost always research drop and speed, and rarely don't get my 300minerals/300gas worth. | ||
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Asukurra
United Kingdom50 Posts
15Hatch 15pool 16Ovi 17 queen (extractor trick if needed) 19 queen (Nat) <double inject> 1x Lings 21 Hatch (3rd) 2xQueen(when your other queens finish) <Creep spread> Then the style is up to you, 1gas just for speed and bane nest if needed/ wanted, or double gas at main for upgrades, or can make 4 for a early Lair for Muta or festors and so on ect ect the use of the 3rd is discussed a little bit below The reasoning First off im Only Gold getting into Plat level so this is a asking if it sounds likely in about Dia+ Ive been talking to a few T at Masters and a few Z i know at Masters and one thing that always seemed to pop up is CC before Factory, if they bother to do it any more for Hellions, into whatever strat they do for vZ, but they all say they only really push out ect at around 10 mins with marine tank or later (13-15) with Bio Mech for a poke and maybe kill off some army or take the 3rd for them, and the Z have been saying that T are getting Laxed with using the Hellions for scouting as the Queen buff and either dont bother with them or sac'ing them to get a few drones kills as the Z dont prepair properly anymore (Q buff) This is a very rough build atm and ive only had about 2 hours trying to refine it vs AI and fellow Goldies,and with Discussion with the few people I know high enough to give detailed discussion The Idea Bit greedy but helpful for greedy T's! Fast 3rd base for Larva and Eco, and all that 3rd base goodness Current working ideas Use it to speed Droneing to do a similer max out to the ZvP Use it as a macro match for extra army if attacking/ defending Use it as a Sac to delay a T all in/ get ready for that Cloak banshee you didnt see coming Extra Gas for super fast Tech/ greater number of Tech units Best case is they dont look early enough and you are ahead with a full working base before they think to expand In gold at least, i have the 'spare' 300 mins as having no Larvee for drones and as no gas is taken early for min increase Defence The idea behind defense is using lings on creep with Queens to repel early marine pushs and Hellions, and ofc Queens for Banshee, Tanks should come after speed and if they decide to kill of the 3rd gives you a long amount of time get more army/ position/ speed to finish going 5 queen is a bit pushy but useful if you think they are 2 base timing, lay down 4-6 creeps and leave the 3+4th queen to gather energy for transfuse and then you have 2Q injecting and 3Q for defense with Lings and Spines if you feel SUPER put out Please Discuss ^^, im happy with any crit, good or bad, im a big boy! | ||
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Alex-Berker
United Kingdom117 Posts
On June 19 2012 22:07 Asukurra wrote: Hi all, first post on here and what not, I have a question, half discussion ect,(can't make new Topic as less then 3 days account) Ive been working on a fast 3rd vs T, similer to the current ZvP meta, using lings for early game defence, the basic idea 15Hatch 15pool 16Ovi 17 queen (extractor trick if needed) 19 queen (Nat) <double inject> 1x Lings 21 Hatch (3rd) 2xQueen(when your other queens finish) <Creep spread> Then the style is up to you, 1gas just for speed and bane nest if needed/ wanted, or double gas at main for upgrades, or can make 4 for a early Lair for Muta or festors and so on ect ect the use of the 3rd is discussed a little bit below The reasoning First off im Only Gold getting into Plat level so this is a asking if it sounds likely in about Dia+ Ive been talking to a few T at Masters and a few Z i know at Masters and one thing that always seemed to pop up is CC before Factory, if they bother to do it any more for Hellions, into whatever strat they do for vZ, but they all say they only really push out ect at around 10 mins with marine tank or later (13-15) with Bio Mech for a poke and maybe kill off some army or take the 3rd for them, and the Z have been saying that T are getting Laxed with using the Hellions for scouting as the Queen buff and either dont bother with them or sac'ing them to get a few drones kills as the Z dont prepair properly anymore (Q buff) This is a very rough build atm and ive only had about 2 hours trying to refine it vs AI and fellow Goldies,and with Discussion with the few people I know high enough to give detailed discussion The Idea Bit greedy but helpful for greedy T's! Fast 3rd base for Larva and Eco, and all that 3rd base goodness Current working ideas Use it to speed Droneing to do a similer max out to the ZvP Use it as a macro match for extra army if attacking/ defending Use it as a Sac to delay a T all in/ get ready for that Cloak banshee you didnt see coming Extra Gas for super fast Tech/ greater number of Tech units Best case is they dont look early enough and you are ahead with a full working base before they think to expand In gold at least, i have the 'spare' 300 mins as having no Larvee for drones and as no gas is taken early for min increase Defence The idea behind defense is using lings on creep with Queens to repel early marine pushs and Hellions, and ofc Queens for Banshee, Tanks should come after speed and if they decide to kill of the 3rd gives you a long amount of time get more army/ position/ speed to finish going 5 queen is a bit pushy but useful if you think they are 2 base timing, lay down 4-6 creeps and leave the 3+4th queen to gather energy for transfuse and then you have 2Q injecting and 3Q for defense with Lings and Spines if you feel SUPER put out Please Discuss ^^, im happy with any crit, good or bad, im a big boy! Outsanding first post! Just wondering what you would do versus 2 port banshees. No evo chamber and no lair so if he/she masses 4-6 banshees it would be an insta loss. you can relly on scouting and an emergency ev chamber but that only works on paper not in the real game. Eager to here your thoughts! -Alex | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On June 19 2012 22:07 Asukurra wrote: Hi all, first post on here and what not, I have a question, half discussion ect,(can't make new Topic as less then 3 days account) Ive been working on a fast 3rd vs T, similer to the current ZvP meta, using lings for early game defence, the basic idea 15Hatch 15pool 16Ovi 17 queen (extractor trick if needed) 19 queen (Nat) <double inject> 1x Lings 21 Hatch (3rd) 2xQueen(when your other queens finish) <Creep spread> Then the style is up to you, 1gas just for speed and bane nest if needed/ wanted, or double gas at main for upgrades, or can make 4 for a early Lair for Muta or festors and so on ect ect the use of the 3rd is discussed a little bit below The reasoning First off im Only Gold getting into Plat level so this is a asking if it sounds likely in about Dia+ Ive been talking to a few T at Masters and a few Z i know at Masters and one thing that always seemed to pop up is CC before Factory, if they bother to do it any more for Hellions, into whatever strat they do for vZ, but they all say they only really push out ect at around 10 mins with marine tank or later (13-15) with Bio Mech for a poke and maybe kill off some army or take the 3rd for them, and the Z have been saying that T are getting Laxed with using the Hellions for scouting as the Queen buff and either dont bother with them or sac'ing them to get a few drones kills as the Z dont prepair properly anymore (Q buff) This is a very rough build atm and ive only had about 2 hours trying to refine it vs AI and fellow Goldies,and with Discussion with the few people I know high enough to give detailed discussion The Idea Bit greedy but helpful for greedy T's! Fast 3rd base for Larva and Eco, and all that 3rd base goodness Current working ideas Use it to speed Droneing to do a similer max out to the ZvP Use it as a macro match for extra army if attacking/ defending Use it as a Sac to delay a T all in/ get ready for that Cloak banshee you didnt see coming Extra Gas for super fast Tech/ greater number of Tech units Best case is they dont look early enough and you are ahead with a full working base before they think to expand In gold at least, i have the 'spare' 300 mins as having no Larvee for drones and as no gas is taken early for min increase Defence The idea behind defense is using lings on creep with Queens to repel early marine pushs and Hellions, and ofc Queens for Banshee, Tanks should come after speed and if they decide to kill of the 3rd gives you a long amount of time get more army/ position/ speed to finish going 5 queen is a bit pushy but useful if you think they are 2 base timing, lay down 4-6 creeps and leave the 3+4th queen to gather energy for transfuse and then you have 2Q injecting and 3Q for defense with Lings and Spines if you feel SUPER put out Please Discuss ^^, im happy with any crit, good or bad, im a big boy! Hi! nice 1st post indeed  What you suggest is quite unusual: most z will stay longer on two bases, or if they want to expand and take a quick third, will make a bunch of roaches before. Quite nice to hear such new suggestions! I see three kinds of potential problems: - make sure he is not all ining you on one base before doing that kind of things! (a marauder /helion push would be devastating for instance, although it isn't common for sure, or some 4 rax marine early push). But can you make sure he is not all ining before you actually take your third, or are you just praying that he will play standard? - even if he is not all-ining you, what if he brings like a couple of marines and deny your drone going to your third, or even block your third with some building? true, you have queens, but it'll take some time before you actually get there with them. - is it actually worth it ? just have a look at the moment where your hatch pops out: can you send drones there to exploit it or not? the risk being that you take 300 minerals away from drone production in very early game. I feel that a slightly later hatch would be as useful... ( you may tell me that you can do it vs protoss, but here I am afraid the comparison is a bit misleading, as terrans can be more aggressive early than FFE toss). Also, what would be your gas timings? Having said that, I wouldn't say this is a deadend strat, just check how you deal with these things . Maybe just use this strat when you are pretty sure your opponent actually 1 rax expand? | ||
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autoexec
United States530 Posts
I was wondering what would be the best way to do queen inject macro? I have my hotkeys set up in the following: 1- Units 2- Units 3- Units 4- Main base (macro hatches are included here for injects) 5- Natural 6- Third 7- Fourth 8- Creep Tumors 9- Upgrades 0- All hatches I double tap the number corresponding to each base and then queen inject on them. Is there a better way to do it? If not, what do I do once I get over 4 bases and want to macro? | ||
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Maxamix
Canada165 Posts
On June 19 2012 23:20 sc2fan007 wrote: Hi! I'm a gold level terran that is switching to zerg. I was wondering what would be the best way to do queen inject macro? I have my hotkeys set up in the following: 1- Units 2- Units 3- Units 4- Main base (macro hatches are included here for injects) 5- Natural 6- Third 7- Fourth 8- Creep Tumors 9- Upgrades 0- All hatches I double tap the number corresponding to each base and then queen inject on them. Is there a better way to do it? If not, what do I do once I get over 4 bases and want to macro? Diamond zerg here, Here is my hotkey setup 1-main army 2-1st harass squadron (mutas, small ling group) 3- 2nd harass squadron (infestors, corruptors) 4- T3 units (Ultras / Broods) 5- queens (all of em except spreading creep) 6- All hatches 7- most recent expo 8- Spawning pool (becaus i always forget crackings @ hive timing) 9- OS-OV 0-Evo chambers I have left ALT remapped to replace the backspace so when i need to inject i usually go 5, V+SHIFT (hold those) and then a spam alt and click the center of the screen. I use finger one (pinky) and 4 (index) to hold the shift and V and finger 3 (middle finger) to hit the alt button. | ||
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