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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 16 2012 09:56 PieTaster wrote: How can you tell the difference between a 2 rax with 1 rax proxied and a 1 rax cc before the 2nd supply depot? Some players scout common proxy locations with their scouting drone (I've seen DRG do this), another indication is more than 1 scv moving across the map. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
Just played this game vs a teammate. Obviously, I'm the Z. I have been trying to beat this guy and other tosses for well over two weeks now to absolutely no avail, and it feels like everything I do is a total waste of time because of games like the above where ff's shut down every thing I try to do. I feel, in this game, I had him several time but ff's literally saved his life at least twice. Honestly, I don't know what I'm doing wrong here. I will be the first to admit that I should be making more drones as the game goes on. I can take care of that quite quickly, but, even so, I do not believe that will fix my problems, considering my main problem with zvp are the engagements. Forcefields prevent me from doing anything meaningful. | ||
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BlueKatz
68 Posts
So if I save larva and keep pumping zergling will I be able to out numbered him? Will I be able to do enough damage if he build Spine? (Note I'm talking about Mass Queen opening, like 3 queens). If I mass ling then I would only have like 11 mining drones and 3 on gas. Should I get only speed or bane as well? Or maybe I should only make some speedling and try to poke him and hope he overreacting with 3 queens (or 2 and miss a lot of inject blocking the ramp) and spines while expanding behind. Also if enemy go for eco is it safe enough to tech to Roaches or it is still better get Bane Nest? I many time still get killed by extreme push And is it worth getting double upgrade in ZvZ or it's better to get 1 then 1/2? | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On June 16 2012 09:56 PieTaster wrote: How can you tell the difference between a 2 rax with 1 rax proxied and a 1 rax cc before the 2nd supply depot? Count the scv's with your scouting drone. A 1 rax FE will have almost 2 scv's per patch (14-15 scv's), a 2 rax with have 10-11 scv's, so only 2-3 patches will be doubled up. Sorry this isn't more exact, but most the time just eyeballing it is all the time we have before going back to base vision. | ||
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BadBinky
Finland649 Posts
On June 16 2012 12:05 Amaterasu1234 wrote: http://drop.sc/198609 Just played this game vs a teammate. Obviously, I'm the Z. I have been trying to beat this guy and other tosses for well over two weeks now to absolutely no avail, and it feels like everything I do is a total waste of time because of games like the above where ff's shut down every thing I try to do. I feel, in this game, I had him several time but ff's literally saved his life at least twice. Honestly, I don't know what I'm doing wrong here. I will be the first to admit that I should be making more drones as the game goes on. I can take care of that quite quickly, but, even so, I do not believe that will fix my problems, considering my main problem with zvp are the engagements. Forcefields prevent me from doing anything meaningful. I just watched this. Looks very standard. You engage in the middle of the map at around 13min with 150ish food. You could have been maxed at around 12min and attacked him, deny his third or at least trade some units. You had the money, you had the larva. Not much else to say here. If you go for this ling roach composition and he goes immortals into 3rd base, you NEED to trade at 12min or so. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
How can you tell the difference between a 2 rax with 1 rax proxied and a 1 rax cc before the 2nd supply depot? 2 rax is very obvious - they will have to send 2 scvs out on the map to make the rax, so that's 9 of 11 workers, and they usually send 2-5 workers, so it may be even less than that. His mineral line will look cmpletely empty. If he's got near double workers on every patch, it's an expansion. If he has just a completely empty mineral line, with many patches not being mined, or just maybe 1 worker per patch, then it's 11/11 rax. Meanwhile, 1 rax CC will make a CC on the low ground right when the marine pops, so you should see with your drone that's leaving his base, or with your overlord, and SCV on the low ground. If you keep a drone or overlord there, it will take a few shots before escaping but see the CC, or it will die for staying around and actually see it. It'll be pretty obvious - his marines aren't running straight to your base, he doesn't pull SCVs, he clearly has 14 SCVs, or nearly 2 workers per patch... Not everyone drone scouts in zvt, which is fine, but I would recommend it unless you are higher level. At higher level play, you can tell it's a 2 rax by the timing of the scouting worker (it comes too late to really react to a 6 pool if they went like cc first which is only time they'd care about scouting), at 17 supply, so if you dont overlord scout, and your overlord cant go over their base safely and across like close air shakuras (yay overlord speed buff, you can make it all the way past their base on close air on shak now) or other maps, then you should prepare for the 2 rax 11/11 if a scouting worker is in your base around 16-17 supply. A 2 rax will be obvious because marines and bunkers or more than 1 scv is in your natural right before your pool pops. As soon as you see an initial scouting worker and you dont know what's going on (because you dont drone scout), you need to patrol a drone at the ramp (and, on maps like shakuras with a choke out of natural, another drone patrolling there to stop select style 3 bunker block or on TDA between main and nat to stop mvp style 3 bunker block like he did on belshir vs nestea). The good 2 rax will hit at 17 supply, so make sure he doesnt block your ramp with clearly more than 1 worker and marines in your natural by 17 supply. Respond as usual - deny bunkers aggressively with queuing shift+attack multiple times with 2-3 workers on each bunker building scv, and then attack marines, while making a single spine when you can, and 8-12 lings until the spine pops. Make a queen, and/or a 2nd spine at nat, if he pulls all his scvs or is continuing to make marines. I have been seeing a lot of Hatch first in ZvZ with a lot of queens lately. How should I punish this properly? I think the main problem that I was a bit greedy and try to drone up then attack. So if I save larva and keep pumping zergling will I be able to out numbered him? Will I be able to do enough damage if he build Spine? (Note I'm talking about Mass Queen opening, like 3 queens). If I mass ling then I would only have like 11 mining drones and 3 on gas. Should I get only speed or bane as well? Or maybe I should only make some speedling and try to poke him and hope he overreacting with 3 queens (or 2 and miss a lot of inject blocking the ramp) and spines while expanding behind. Also if enemy go for eco is it safe enough to tech to Roaches or it is still better get Bane Nest? I many time still get killed by extreme push And is it worth getting double upgrade in ZvZ or it's better to get 1 then 1/2? You can't. Hatch first is a very, very safe build, and very defensive, with it's quick mass production, and double queen with transfuse and a quick spine on the low ground to transfuse (he wont inject if he sees no expo by 21). Roach all-ins are absolutely terrible, he will have speed in time and it takes 3 speedlings to rape a roach, in small numbers lings just rape roaches, especially with 2 hatch 2 queen larva produciton, not to mention he will make a spine or two, and 2 queens, and quick reinforcements vs no reinforcements at all. 1 base roach is a terriblebuild that no one uses at high level play for a reason, it's worse in every way from 1 base ling/bane, and is even owned much harder than ling/bane even if the hatch first player prepares his response as if you were going ling/bane all-in. Hatch first also 'beats' 14/14, especially 14/14 ling/bane all-in, extremely easily, it will never work if the map has a choke at the natural (it's great on maps like TDA or belshir though that are stupid) in high level play (in diamond or low masters, yea, 14/14 ling/bane all-in is like a build order win against bad players lol...). 10 pool with 8 of 12 drones pulled with a single spine and rallying lings build order counters hatch first with an autowin (according to conventional knowledge, some pros recently have been testing a solution that wouldnt work against other 10 pool variations though), but that's a blind cheese. So unless you went 10 pool and pull 8 drones blindly, there is nothing you can do against hatch first. hatch first isn't that far ahead of standard 14 pool builds (14 pool gasless 16 hatch or 14/14/21 expand and only making drones and no more than 4 lings initially), so just play normally and only be behind by an insignificant amount that is smaller than the loss you suffer for being momentarily supply blocked for 5 seconds. If you are facing a hatch first, just drone up hard and know they won't put pressure on you immediately, so expand, then get a baneling nest and 2-4 defensive banes and just catch up quickly as you dont need a spine until later, whereas the hatch first player had to get a quick spine and bane nest. You should never pump mass ling for defense, that's terrible,and hatch first will overrun you. Hatch first can be dangerous and very offensive, because of production, and will win if hatch first just masses speedlings, but it wont work if you get banelings after expand (take off gas after speed, or leave 1, or put back 2-3 after taking expo then get bane nest)... which is why hatch first is considered an aggressive opening, if you dont get banelings you will lose to mass ling or ling/bane. If someone is massing queens and spines though, the proper response is take advantage of your map control because his is all static defense, and take a third (or, if you are doing a 2 base build like muta/infestor, just dont make any defense or units yourself because you know you will be safe, so you can be greedy, but dont do any aggression against it... aggression is bad against spines, 2 spines and 2 queens shut down any sort of ling/bane all-in easily, even 1 spine 2 queens and baneling nest does as well). 2 spines 2 queen or 1 spine 2 queens with reactive lings from the mass larva own roaches even harder. I just watched this. Looks very standard. You engage in the middle of the map at around 13min with 150ish food. You could have been maxed at around 12min and attacked him, deny his third or at least trade some units. You had the money, you had the larva. Not much else to say here. If you go for this ling roach composition and he goes immortals into 3rd base, you NEED to trade at 12min or so. I dont know how much I agree with this - yes, you need to be maxed by at least 12 minutes (ideally 11:30) if going for a roach/ling max or you suspect an immortal/sentry all-in or immortal/sentry expand (so you can deny his third on more open maps, otherwise you will need tech against it will trying to do pressure but not losing too many units). If someone is going immortals into 3rd base, you need to start teching immediately. Hopefully, you recognize its not an all-in but rather an expand play because he isn't pushing out with 2 immortals at ~9:15-9:30 and setting up aggressive pylons and start teching to spire/infestors and taking extra gas right away instead of making more gas heavy roaches, which is the trade-off - if he goes expand, and you max out on roaches against immortal/sentry expand, you will lose because your tech is way too far behind. If he goes for an all-in, you need to be massing roach/ling and be around 140+ supply at around 10:00 when he hits your base. | ||
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eXeel
Denmark62 Posts
When I get my pool at 14 and hatchery at 16, when should the first queen come? - Should I save the supply at 16/18 to get it? - Should I make and overlord at 16/18 and then continue drones or some lings? - Extractor trick in some way? If we talk about the most normal way to play, which for me is droning up if opponent isn't aggressive. And does it change your answer, for the games I go aggressive? | ||
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ravEzi
Israel44 Posts
What do you think I lost here to mech? I think I should have wait, also i should have been preperd for that push and start roach production earlier. CAN SOMEONE PLZ HELP ME | ||
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eXeel
Denmark62 Posts
- You spot 2 factories with overlord. You know they will come mech - You got fooled with your roaches, where he headed back. That happens. Run themback ASAP, move your workers, get your two queens down to the helions. Split the workers (keep them around the sunken and queens) - Your first gas was very early compared to when you used it. That start forces you to drone up again and stop with the roaches. Not good. That is all I have time to comment on, hope you can use some of it  | ||
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Alex-Berker
United Kingdom117 Posts
On June 15 2012 16:54 Tritone wrote: How useful, generally, is the overlord speed upgrade? Should I be getting that as a matter or course or only if I have a specific need--e.g. I'm planning on doing drops? Any thoughts would be appreciated  You should get it mid-late game when you have the spare resources. Much faster scouting for minimal investement is great! also helps you get in a terrans base and contaminate factories  | ||
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Tribuno
Italy261 Posts
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On June 16 2012 22:54 ravEzi wrote: http://drop.sc/197306 What do you think I lost here to mech? I think I should have wait, also i should have been preperd for that push and start roach production earlier. CAN SOMEONE PLZ HELP ME You lost because it didn't seem like you had a solid game plan, you kept losing workers to hellions, and you engaged in poor battles. First of all, what was your plan? You got an early roach warren and that's fine, it's a legit early game strategy to have roaches. However, you didn't seem to capitalize on them, suffered macro lapses, and took a later third. 4-6 roaches can keep 8-10 hellions at bay while you get an earlier third. At what point did you realize you were playing against mech? For me it would have been scouting the second factory with the ovie sac, but it's not like the replay tells me that's when you figured it out. You lost too many drones to hellion runby's. You should build a sim city with spines around your minerals or keep a group of roaches at attack paths. You did a good job droning and replacing the dead drones, but you could have had a LOT more roaches had that larva not replaced your economy. The "big" attack was about 5 tanks, a thor, 12 hellions, and 5 scv's. This is an unimpressive army where mech is concerned, but you spent so long replacing economy that your army was small. You finally engaged with roach/ling/infestor, but you can't just a-move and fungal the hellions. There were five sieged tanks and you attack right into the strongest point of the army. If you're going to do this at least throw down a bunch of infested terran eggs to absorb the opening siege volleys and then attack. If you had 30 more roaches you probably would have won with the a-move, so once again it comes back to losing workers and larva to hellions. This terran's mech style was pretty basic: "if I scout roaches make a lot of tanks and if I scout lings or mutas make lots of thors". Once all those tanks are sieged it becomes absolute hell to engage mech with a frontal assault. You either need to wait for the mto unsiege before attacking with your roach army OR build a spine crawler wall with enough roaches to repel hellion harass, tech to BL, and wreck havoc on his army that doesn't shoot up. Terrans that play "the counter game" will then make a ton of vikings and thors, but you could easily remax on roaches and contain them for a long time. | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On June 17 2012 20:13 BoxingKangaroo wrote: How do you tell the difference between a regular 4 gate and a DT rush? Played a game on Daybreak where my opponent proxied the Twilight and Dark Shrine, so all my overlord saw was 4 gateways. Got owned by DT's. Is there a way to tell, or better yet, is there a defence which can handle both? Um, the fact that you didn't get attacked by a certain time means it's not a 4 gate. You should always throw up a 6 min evo chamber against 1 base protoss unless you've already been attacked by the 4 gate, in which case it's not needed. I'm assuming he pushed out with a tiny amount of units and cleared your xel naga, and you just made units and waited for an attack that never came? You have to do more. - When he clears the xel naga, run lings around them, check for expo, check for forward pylons, see if you can get lucky and run up his main. - Run a ling into his army, see if it's increasing (a 4 gate should be increasing units 4 at a time, so count his units). If his units are still the same as last time, he obviously teched in some way. - 6 min evo chamber. 1 spore in each mineral line, OR you can just put 1 spore at your natural and queen block your ramp (or block it with roaches on hold position). That's what REALLY good players with a good sense of DT timings do though, it's generally much safer to just make a spore in main and nat. This will also help if he went 3 gate void and hid the void rays/SG. On an unrelated note, if he DID go 3 gate void, make sure to move those 2 spores you made to the front of your natural if he decides to attack. | ||
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K1llSw1tch
1 Post
Im gold level zerg and im wondering how can i open most efficently vs t. And how do i follow to infestors and BL. If anyone has a build order or some nice replays i would be glad. I almost all games go for ling/bling/muta but it seems so gas heavy that it is hard to transition out of it...  Is mass ling/bling/infestor bether than ling/bling/muta? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Felvo
United States124 Posts
or are mass lings the better way? | ||
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Alex-Berker
United Kingdom117 Posts
On June 18 2012 00:42 Felvo wrote: How does one handle mass bio more aimed towards marauders? I recently played a game where the terran went mass bio and I couldn't really hold off his 2/3 marauder 1/3 marine army with ling bane infestor. After I was pretty much already dead I attempted hydras but because of how far behind I was I couldn't do anything. Are hydras the best answer when facing mostly marauder armies? or are mass lings the better way? Considering equal upgrades and the mauraders hp and armor it takes way to many ling shots to kill em. Youll need infestor baneling roach. You can cut out roaches if youre teching to spire for mutas or broodlords. | ||
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ETisME
12683 Posts
On June 16 2012 13:16 BlueKatz wrote: I have been seeing a lot of Hatch first in ZvZ with a lot of queens lately. How should I punish this properly? I think the main problem that I was a bit greedy and try to drone up then attack. So if I save larva and keep pumping zergling will I be able to out numbered him? Will I be able to do enough damage if he build Spine? (Note I'm talking about Mass Queen opening, like 3 queens). If I mass ling then I would only have like 11 mining drones and 3 on gas. Should I get only speed or bane as well? Or maybe I should only make some speedling and try to poke him and hope he overreacting with 3 queens (or 2 and miss a lot of inject blocking the ramp) and spines while expanding behind. Also if enemy go for eco is it safe enough to tech to Roaches or it is still better get Bane Nest? I many time still get killed by extreme push And is it worth getting double upgrade in ZvZ or it's better to get 1 then 1/2? I think I heard this from TLO's stream when he was explaining it out. what he does is just to grab a really fast third while producing nothing but lings behind it. the opponent either will have to go all in to kill off your third (which you will have the lings ready for) or he will have to play standard and behind. | ||
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BladeZerg
United Kingdom19 Posts
On June 16 2012 12:05 Amaterasu1234 wrote: http://drop.sc/198609 Just played this game vs a teammate. Obviously, I'm the Z. I have been trying to beat this guy and other tosses for well over two weeks now to absolutely no avail, and it feels like everything I do is a total waste of time because of games like the above where ff's shut down every thing I try to do. I feel, in this game, I had him several time but ff's literally saved his life at least twice. Honestly, I don't know what I'm doing wrong here. I will be the first to admit that I should be making more drones as the game goes on. I can take care of that quite quickly, but, even so, I do not believe that will fix my problems, considering my main problem with zvp are the engagements. Forcefields prevent me from doing anything meaningful. Having the exact same problem as this guy. Every single engagement seems useless due to ff's. No matter the supply difference, or how much you out-macro the toss, they come out on top of every engagement. 'Forcing forcefields' becomes void when he has 4/5 or more sentries. | ||
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