EPTCorruptors would be more of a reactionary unit.
I don't really get what you are getting at though. I don't know if the game is really looked at that way anymore.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 284
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Corruptors would be more of a reactionary unit. I don't really get what you are getting at though. I don't know if the game is really looked at that way anymore. | ||
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Thienan567
United States670 Posts
On June 14 2012 11:25 PieTaster wrote: Are mutas a reactionary unit or a unit depending on your style? Mutas are mostly a style unit, a lot of EU zergs like to use mass mutas. Mutas aren't really built to counter anything, except maybe mass drop play from Terran sometimes? Mutas give you map control and allow you to harass and keep your opponent in his base, in which case you should expand and tech and drone. Hard. An example of reactionary unit would be hydras to stargate play, or roaches vs mech. Hope this helps. | ||
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Tritone
Japan76 Posts
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On June 14 2012 19:18 Tritone wrote: I'm a new Starcraft 2 player (been watching games since the beta but just bought the game last week). I would like to practice just 1 Zerg build I can use every match until I am fairly comfortable with the game (at least until I make it out of bronze league). Any suggestions? 14gas/14 pool is what dApollo was recommending from his vods I believe morrow used the same also since it works in ZvZ and ZvP. Against terran you just want to 15 hatch/15 pool. Apollo's vods are kind old though right now most builds are Hatch first in ZvZ and ZvT and 15 pool/15 Hatch in ZvP. I'd say starting out 14g/14 pool is a good basic build that is stable in most cases just to start till you get use to playing the game. Good luck Im sure others will chime in with better suggestions than mine. | ||
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Tritone
Japan76 Posts
I have seen those "working up from bronze" videos from Dignitas--they are partially what inspired me to try to pick up Zerg (I've been playing mostly Protoss the first week of owning the game). I really like the map control and easy scouting that zerglings, overlords and mutalisks provide. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On June 14 2012 13:29 Thienan567 wrote: Mutas are mostly a style unit, a lot of EU zergs like to use mass mutas. Mutas aren't really built to counter anything, except maybe mass drop play from Terran sometimes? Mutas give you map control and allow you to harass and keep your opponent in his base, in which case you should expand and tech and drone. Hard. An example of reactionary unit would be hydras to stargate play, or roaches vs mech. Hope this helps. Something I've been noticing, that I like quite a bit, is pros (I've noticed Idra and Ret doing this quite a bit, but I think DRG has been pioneering it) starting to rely on mutas in ZvP to punish toss when he gets sentry/immortal and uses it to be safe when he takes a fast (10m-ish) 3rd. It's not exactly an autowin, but when the protoss greedily expands like that he usually has no stalkers, but mostly sentry/immortal, because he's worried about defending a stephano-style 12 minute roach bust. Mutas seem to pop, at the latest, at like 11 minutes, and suddenly toss HAS to stay home until they get blink stalkers or templar, so the zerg uses that time to snag a 4th, (and a 5th sometimes) transition to ling/infestor if he hasn't taken too many muta losses, and get a quick hive. The weakness of this style, of course, is that it simply dies to 2 base allins, which hit before mutas pop. I believe that was visible in the game + Show Spoiler + that DRG dropped to Alicia in the MLG Spring finals Has anyone else been playing around with this? One way I've been making myself safe is by throwing down a roach warren at the normal time (I didn't see if the pros also did this, because I'm stupid) and flooding emergency roaches if I see a push coming. The biggest trick is knowing how to spot an incoming greedy third - any scouting tips? It seems impossible to distinguish from a 2base gateway allin if you are only able to get one ovie in and he doesn't see all the gateways. I'd love to hear thoughts from high masters/above players on this, and corrections if there are any. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339136 | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
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Shmu
Canada27 Posts
On June 14 2012 19:18 Tritone wrote: I'm a new Starcraft 2 player (been watching games since the beta but just bought the game last week). I would like to practice just 1 Zerg build I can use every match until I am fairly comfortable with the game (at least until I make it out of bronze league). Any suggestions? Hey Tritone, Check out Filter's Bronze to Masters series: Here he outlines some benchmarks with a very simple build that you can use in all 3 matchups. It's designed to be used in Bronze league, but I was using this up to mid-Platinum and still keeping a decent win rate. | ||
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ravEzi
Israel44 Posts
What do you think I lost here to mech? I think I should have wait, also i should have been preperd for that push and start roach production earlier. thanks a head | | ||
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theBOOCH
United States832 Posts
On June 14 2012 13:29 Thienan567 wrote: Show nested quote + Mutas are mostly a style unit, a lot of EU zergs like to use mass mutas. Mutas aren't really built to counter anything, except maybe mass drop play from Terran sometimes? Mutas give you map control and allow you to harass and keep your opponent in his base, in which case you should expand and tech and drone. Hard. An example of reactionary unit would be hydras to stargate play, or roaches vs mech. Hope this helps. Something I've been noticing, that I like quite a bit, is pros (I've noticed Idra and Ret doing this quite a bit, but I think DRG has been pioneering it) starting to rely on mutas in ZvP to punish toss when he gets sentry/immortal and uses it to be safe when he takes a fast (10m-ish) 3rd. It's not exactly an autowin, but when the protoss greedily expands like that he usually has no stalkers, but mostly sentry/immortal, because he's worried about defending a stephano-style 12 minute roach bust. Mutas seem to pop, at the latest, at like 11 minutes, and suddenly toss HAS to stay home until they get blink stalkers or templar, so the zerg uses that time to snag a 4th, (and a 5th sometimes) transition to ling/infestor if he hasn't taken too many muta losses, and get a quick hive. The weakness of this style, of course, is that it simply dies to 2 base allins, which hit before mutas pop. I believe that was visible in the game + Show Spoiler + Has anyone else been playing around with this? One way I've been making myself safe is by throwing down a roach warren at the normal time (I didn't see if the pros also did this, because I'm stupid) and flooding emergency roaches if I see a push coming. The biggest trick is knowing how to spot an incoming greedy third - any scouting tips? It seems impossible to distinguish from a 2base gateway allin if you are only able to get one ovie in and he doesn't see all the gateways. I'd love to hear thoughts from high masters/above players on this, and corrections if there are any. DRG does get a roach warren at the normal time and even gets roach speed in that game vs alicia. He doesn't build a single roach until the very end of the game (when he has already won). | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On June 15 2012 06:00 theBOOCH wrote: DRG does get a roach warren at the normal time and even gets roach speed in that game vs alicia. He doesn't build a single roach until the very end of the game (when he has already won). Based on the post that Belial linked to, it seems like whether you need a roach warren depends very much on what you see - if you don't see gas at the natural, it's more likely that you're going to face a gateway allin, and then you need roaches with speed. Do you remember if DRG had scouted something that might have suggested gateway pressure? | ||
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DW-Unrec
492 Posts
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PandaGuns
United Kingdom12 Posts
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Sigil
United States44 Posts
On June 15 2012 08:16 PandaGuns wrote: I feel like I'm real bad at knowing when/remembering to spawn Overlords. Does anyone have any particular tricks they use to remind them? Every time you inject, look up at your supply. | ||
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optical630
United Kingdom768 Posts
On June 14 2012 19:18 Tritone wrote: I'm a new Starcraft 2 player (been watching games since the beta but just bought the game last week). I would like to practice just 1 Zerg build I can use every match until I am fairly comfortable with the game (at least until I make it out of bronze league). Any suggestions? id reccomend for zvz to stick to 14 gas 14 pool and only move to hatch first once you have better control etc for holding off early zerg rushes. | ||
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SurroundSound
106 Posts
Having a TON of trouble with toss not opening FFE as horrible as it sounds. One toss did a no gas 1 gate FE. The other did 2 gate zel pressure... My problem is i have no idea how to react and i usually get punished for my indecisiveness.. help! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Against a proxy 2 gate, you need to morph 2 spines asap, and get gas, ling speed asap. Then you start injecting and making lings and overwhelm him. If he doesn't proxy the gates, you only need 1 spine. Deny his expansion with the speedlings, but if he walls off quickly you will need to stop as soon as his pressure stops. If protoss expands, you need to take a third (only exception is 2 gate DT expand, in which case you need to go 2 base lair and lots of drones on 2 base then lair then lots of roaches to pressure and deal with archon/zealot pressure). If toss is not going for SG/DT/Robo tech, then he's going to do pressure. Just like against a no gas FFE with 6 gate +1 all-in, if toss is doing a gateway expand into gateway pressure with no gas at the natural, you need to make lots of roach/ling. You should start roach warren and back on 1 gas when you take your expo and make roach/ling as necessary. If he goes for tech instead of a gateway push, then you need to drone up and get lair, then at like 70+ make units. This is why you always need to sac an overlord into Toss' base and scout after he expands, to see his follow up after expanding. Check my ZvP guide for replays where I handle non-ffe expands: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 here's also a recent replay where someone did a 3 gate expand. In it, you can see I'm weary of what he's doing, and have no clue what's going on, so I start a roach warren and evo and put back on gas at ~35, just as you should against 4 gate, 1 base DT/SG rushes, and 4 gate robo all-ins. Then, when I see him expand and his sentries, I just not make any roaches, and take my third (if I knew exactly what he was doing, i would have taken the third first, then the roach warren, but it's okay and I'm still ahead), and a 2nd gas, lair, at about 50+. I have no idea what his follow-up is, so I sac an overlord while making a reasonable amount of roach/ling, to be safe against anything (i also morph an overseer at home just in case of DTs, which I usually do if I am not 100% sure what toss is doing). My overlord doesnt see anything, but he has to kill it with his air units in order to hide his stargate (so one way or the other, i would know what he's up to, because if he killed it with his gateway units I'd realize his army is pitifully small or I'd see what I need to see) and so I make spores at my bases and pressure with the roach/ling I have. I end the game with my roach/ling pressure, but if he hadn't gone double stargate what likely would have happened is I would have denied him from taking his third while I get mutas/infestor/mass roach OR I would defend his all-in with that roach/ling while my economic lead slowly takes over and I push back (and subsequently deny his third while getting muta/infestor/mass roach). http://drop.sc/197991 Treat gateway expands just the same as FFE, the only difference is you need a quick ling speed and a roach warren when taking third (you can be a tiny bit greedier based on map distance, since sentries are slow and he has to walk them over to do 3 gate zealot/sentry pressure and it's obvious with mass sentries). Just the same as FFE, you need to be ready against mass gateway pressure with a gasless expansion and high gateway count and gateway unit count. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I feel like I'm real bad at knowing when/remembering to spawn Overlords. Does anyone have any particular tricks they use to remind them? Copy when pros make them up to about 50 supply (note it's different if you take a quick third). After that it's just making them in time so overlord pops when inject pops. Play way, way more. Watch all the replays you lose and keep track of your supply blocks and when you make overlords too early and see how it affected the game. realizing you lose all your games at your level because of your supply blocks will do a lot to teach you to pay more attention. what is the optimal number of roaches (and why) in a baneling drop push on 2 bases? This sounds like a terrible build. Bear in mind that any sort of attack that doesn't involve a deathball, is a timing attack (eg roach/bane drop will never work against 200/200 marine/marauder or mass carriers, to put it to an extreme). I have no idea what you are talking about or what match-up you are talking about. \ Based on the post that Belial linked to, it seems like whether you need a roach warren depends very much on what you see - if you don't see gas at the natural, it's more likely that you're going to face a gateway allin, and then you need roaches with speed. Do you remember if DRG had scouted something that might have suggested gateway pressure? I've seen quite a few pros incorporate what nestea did into their play - for example, making the roach warren as standard, but then scouting as usual and if they see something that particularly clues them off that they don't need to make roaches (fast third, stargate opener, any sort of tech opening that isn't a timing all-in) they will go for spire, not make any roaches or get any upgrades or roach speed or burrow, and just hit a minute later than nestea does (mutas popping at about 11:33 instead of 10:33). | ||
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Tritone
Japan76 Posts
On June 15 2012 09:12 optical630 wrote: id reccomend for zvz to stick to 14 gas 14 pool and only move to hatch first once you have better control etc for holding off early zerg rushes. Thanks, yeah, I'll definitely practice that build. Is it basically this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252865 ? On June 15 2012 05:23 Shmu wrote: Hey Tritone, Check out Filter's Bronze to Masters series: WOW. This is EXACTLY what I was looking for. I had seen Filter's Terran videos but wasn't aware he had one for Zerg. THANK YOU! | ||
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