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On June 13 2012 06:03 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +next time, got pretty angry in chat
well the IT thing is...hmm. it works sometimes but if he has storm one storm kills like 20-30 ITs = a LOT of energy.
so happy air vortex is out in HOTS. thx anyway, will try some more things. ^^ Once you have about 10+ broodlords, there is no way he can really field HT anymore. Broodlords outrange HT by a lot, and kill them quite quickly. He'll need a lot more than 1 storm to kill the many IT you spam. You should really be on pure bl/infestor, probably off of 4 bases, definitely 5. .
no he storms my IT (not the BLs) which i have to spam right in front of his army where his mothership will be. will try adding some ultras/hydras/blings.
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You aren't hearing me at all.
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http://drop.sc/196065
ZvP
I hold a gateway all in despite missing the pylons near my third. (I probably should have lost there, but I think the protoss was sloppy.) Afterwords, I drone up and scout 2 robos immediately after, and in response, I start my tech. He also tries to sneak a third which I made units and punish it. However, about this point I'm nearing max on roach ling and I don't really know if I can force my way up his ramp vs immortals, so I take my fourth. I start the tech to broodlords, and put up 15 spines as I'm maxed. He rolls out with a death ball and kills my maxed roach/ling with ease along with any reinforcements. Was I just supposed to attack immediately after the gate all-in or what? Also, minor nitpicks are appreciated, I'm trying to clean up my play as a whole. I raged quite a bit after this game, probably due to the fact I was demoted this season.. trying to grind my way back into masters.
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My ZvP is really taking a nosedive right now. I don't really even need to scout protoss since apparently the only strat they do now adays is FFE and most just pylon block my nat and even my third. I typically go 14 pool, but even with that opening, the pylon block really hurts. If I get an earlier hatch then I just get cannon rushed and then i have to make lings and spines which essentially make the rush efffective in itself. I've tried roach ling all-ins on some maps off of two bases, it works on some maps, but not on others.
I know this description is kinda general but what are typical openers now for ZvP and how do I play out againsta toss who goes for the typical FFE w/ pylon block?
Additionally how do you beat Immortal blink stalker all ins?
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On June 13 2012 07:14 XXhkXX wrote:
My ZvP is really taking a nosedive right now. I don't really even need to scout protoss since apparently the only strat they do now adays is FFE and most just pylon block my nat and even my third. I typically go 14 pool, but even with that opening, the pylon block really hurts. If I get an earlier hatch then I just get cannon rushed and then i have to make lings and spines which essentially make the rush efffective in itself. I've tried roach ling all-ins on some maps off of two bases, it works on some maps, but not on others.
I know this description is kinda general but what are typical openers now for ZvP and how do I play out againsta toss who goes for the typical FFE w/ pylon block?
Additionally how do you beat Immortal blink stalker all ins?
Are you talking about placing a pylon to block the hatchery or putting 3 pylons at your ramp? The former will happen in almost all your ZvP's - learn to love it! The latter is cheesy abuse of the ladder maps and you're pretty much dead if you can't block it with a patrolling drone or drone stack and destroy them. You can't drone stack on all map positions, and you will be so far behind that the game is hardly worth playing. I just leave if the 3 pylons go down and I can't stack; if they want my ladder points so bad they can have them.
If you're talking about blocking an expansion with a pylon then read on:+ Show Spoiler +
What I do is go 14 pool and at 16, when I have 200 minerals I pull 2 drones from my main and bring it to the natural. There's an overlord at the natural, so I can see the probe. I attack move with one of the drones and move command the second drone to the third. If a pylon warps at my natural I just expand to the third. If the drone moves away or gives good space I put down the hatch in the natural (uncommon).
If the natural gets blocked I take the attack-moved drone and attack the probe. This way the toss needs to spend APM keeping the probe alive and if it puts down additional pylons to canon rush then I rally my 4 lings plus a few additional to the third.
The most important point is that if the natural is blocked I must immediately make an overlord. Normally the ovie would come after the hatch, but 16/18 is close to supply capped and I won't be able to make many lings or extra drones.
The rest of the opener is business as usual. I transfer drones to the third, but not everyone does this. Zenio, in his replay pack last month, gets an ovie at 16, tries to expand, gets blocked, builds a queen and 4 lings, and then destroys the pylon and takes the natural at 21. The block sets you a little bit behind where you would be without it, but the toss is also a little bit behind, especially if they let the pylon finish.
As for the rest of your questions:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038
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Can someone explain/point me to a hatch first ZvZ build that doesn't die against this. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310142
I cant play ZvZ any other way than doing this build, it just wins me countless games, even against masters (im in diamond). I never hatch first because i know how strong it is. Every hatch first build i see seems to involve roaches, sorry im not going down that road, mass lings still beat that or if I decide to drone up puts you behind.
I just keep playing people who just make drones, some might build A spine, or AN extra queen thinking that's a good defense, maybe against a couple banelings, but Tangs build, as much as i hate it, works a lot of the time.
And because of this build im cautious of it done to me if i go hatch first, so i never do and i just execute this build time and again with a lot of success and it sickens me to be honest (there is basically no depth to it, no offense Tang).
I cant seem to find a solid build i can repeat over and over to put me in a situation where i can react to something like this. 15 hatch, 15 pool, 17 gas, then what, speed or banes? all drones in gas? then what?
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Does anyone know a good baneling allin for ZvT?
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On June 13 2012 10:54 phrenzy wrote:Can someone explain/point me to a hatch first ZvZ build that doesn't die against this. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310142I cant play ZvZ any other way than doing this build, it just wins me countless games, even against masters (im in diamond). I never hatch first because i know how strong it is. Every hatch first build i see seems to involve roaches, sorry im not going down that road, mass lings still beat that or if I decide to drone up puts you behind. I just keep playing people who just make drones, some might build A spine, or AN extra queen thinking that's a good defense, maybe against a couple banelings, but Tangs build, as much as i hate it, works a lot of the time. And because of this build im cautious of it done to me if i go hatch first, so i never do and i just execute this build time and again with a lot of success and it sickens me to be honest (there is basically no depth to it, no offense Tang). I cant seem to find a solid build i can repeat over and over to put me in a situation where i can react to something like this. 15 hatch, 15 pool, 17 gas, then what, speed or banes? all drones in gas? then what?
Very easy to block with some banes and some micro I feel. There are a lot of times earlier in ZvZ's where I used to lose to a lot of early mass ling pressure, however mass ling loses too easily to ling bane. The most important part of hatch first is to have good scouting on your opponent. If my opponent does not expand at the same time as me or speedling expand I immediately react, either by cutting drones for units or throwing down tech to counter. If you see mass speedlings, I would suggest immediately rushing for a baneling nest. Alongside with this you want to make an efficient sim city at your natural, this means creating a choke with evo chambers, and maybe spines in the back/in the wall. Along with one or two queens and a few banes, you should technically be able to repel any ling atk and with the extra hatch you should be in a good position. However, something to be noted about not having speed early is that you surrender map control. A smart opponent may use that map control to quickly secure a third while droning.
tl;dr: scout well (overlord on 4 player maps or 10 drone scout on 2 player maps) --> suspect mass speedlings -->fast gas and simcity-->baneling nest ---> lings and maybe an extra queen spawn in banes --> hold and then drone and tech to victory
EDIT: I believe this should work, if anyone has anything to fix please do so :/
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On June 13 2012 06:57 Belial88 wrote:
You aren't hearing me at all.
hm i dont think you know what i exactly mean. i really appreciate your help and perhaps i dont get what you mean 
here is what i face exactly:
i am on BL/infestor and attack. he has stalker/archon/colossi/HT/MS deathball with his MS hovering above his army.
so i spread BLs and keep infestor under or a little behind them and attack. he goes ahead with his MS and vortexes some BLs, then the next pack of BLs and after double vortex he blinks under the rest of my BLs.
vortex has range 9, BLs range 9,5, infestor and HT both range 9. so basically if i spam IT i have to spam them between BLs and his army (because there is MS and vortex) and he can easily storm those IT + kill them really fast with his deathball. its not like his MS will float there by its own, the army is at max 2-3 hex away since vortex and BL range is the same.
if you spam the IT elsewhere (and how many: i spam like lets say 40 if possible (so if there is no choke etc. preventing to spam more)) etc. plz tell me. would be really nice to not having to hope toss fucks up. 
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On June 13 2012 12:43 XXhkXX wrote:
Very easy to block with some banes and some micro I feel. There are a lot of times earlier in ZvZ's where I used to lose to a lot of early mass ling pressure, however mass ling loses too easily to ling bane. The most important part of hatch first is to have good scouting on your opponent. If my opponent does not expand at the same time as me or speedling expand I immediately react, either by cutting drones for units or throwing down tech to counter. If you see mass speedlings, I would suggest immediately rushing for a baneling nest. Alongside with this you want to make an efficient sim city at your natural, this means creating a choke with evo chambers, and maybe spines in the back/in the wall. Along with one or two queens and a few banes, you should technically be able to repel any ling atk and with the extra hatch you should be in a good position. However, something to be noted about not having speed early is that you surrender map control. A smart opponent may use that map control to quickly secure a third while droning.
tl;dr: scout well (overlord on 4 player maps or 10 drone scout on 2 player maps) --> suspect mass speedlings -->fast gas and simcity-->baneling nest ---> lings and maybe an extra queen spawn in banes --> hold and then drone and tech to victory
EDIT: I believe this should work, if anyone has anything to fix please do so :/
Did you read the build or the title? I expand at 30-40 secs after hatch first (blindly). The massing of speedlings is from two hatcheries, not one. I have very easily won games, where the other player, has 2 queens blocking the ramp + 2 spines and a good sim city + banelings. You have so many lings you target one queen and its over. Because they have 2 spines, bane nest and 3 or more queens they hardly have any moeny for banelings esp if they have been making drones and even then its a very small number its no problem to pick off.
Also as i said, i need a solid build order against this, i dont know what to build and when, i cant find a guide on how to open except for Blades roach opener.
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United States8476 Posts
On June 12 2012 23:49 Decendos wrote:
whats your "perfect" army composition vs lategame P if mothership is out?
like: how many BLs, infestors, corruptor, drones, queens, unit x (hydra, ling, bling etc.) should you have to fight the deathball. i honestly hate how stupidly easy and strong it is to do 2 vortexes which means at least 2/3 of your army is gone and he just blinks to kill the other 1/3. BL/infestor is just so weak without 20 spines under it...
would be really nice if anybody has a good idea and plz NOT "split BLs better" (its impossible to split vs 2 vortexes AND after that you still need enough army to fight the rest of Ps army) or ideas like "NP mothership". already tried spamming ITs to prevent archons from getting in but with HT in the mix infestor get either feedbacked or IT stormed so archons get in anyway.
eventually just go some BLs defensively behind spines and dropharrass toss with other units since he is spread on at least 4 base?
You really need to post a replay.
The best zerg unit composition is Infestor/bl/corruptor. The general answer to your problem, even though you might not want to hear it, is to split BLs better, simple as that. If you're getting hit by vortexes that get 5+ broodlords, you're doing something wrong. Keep broodlords in packs of 2-3 so that one vortex only hits that one group. Keep your bls under spines and infestors when you're being defensive. Use infestors to fungal, throw infested terrans, and threaten neural parasite against motherships. If the map allows it, you can walk spines to his base. Always move your broodlords in formation. ~18 well-split broodlords supported by ~15 infestors, and an appropriate amount of corruptors cannot be directly beaten by any protoss ground army that doesn't involve absurd amounts of carriers.
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What is the optimal way to respond to a terran getting an ebay block off (like 10% health before I kill the scv, if it matters)
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What is the current ZvZ meta? I'm getting soooo frustrated playing this matchup. Either I get 6pooled or I just can't keep up with Muta production. I was thinking of using Roach/Infestor but I find it hard to grab a 3rd because if my opponent makes Mutas, they'll just keep me at my Natural. I could just go attack him head-on but it'll become a base trade which I feel is so stupid.
I've read around that a ling/infestor transition into ultra was getting popular or something but I just feel if my opponent was to go mass roach, I lose -_- BTW, I'm silver league so yea... 
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So I was a plat player 5 seasons back and now I'm starting to play again.
What's the current metagame and common goals for zerg for all 3 match-ups?
What's your opinion on the viability of hydralisks now that zergs in general have gotten better at creep spreading? Is there something else about them that renders them completely unviable?
Keeping a few overlords with speed in your composition to spew creep appears to be something with a lot of potential, especially for a hydralisk build, but is virtually nonexistent. Opinion on the idea and it's viability?
Why don't zergs drop more? How much has drop been experimented with? Theoretically it seems they could be useful in breaking siege lines in PvT. Since zerg is the 'mass units' sort of race, wouldn't that make them better for drop harassment and trading off?
Finally, what's the current build order for lair rush -> spinecrawler siege for FFE protoss? Is it viable anymore?
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How do you respond vs a protoss that puts a pylon on the low ground like a FFE but does double gateway or just gateway first and chronos a ton of zealots? Obviously you have to get the defense but what kind and when? And how does it affect the protoss?
Does it affects the protoss' tech timings, economy, third timing, etc?
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On June 14 2012 05:19 PieTaster wrote:
How do you respond vs a protoss that puts a pylon on the low ground like a FFE but does double gateway or just gateway first and chronos a ton of zealots? Obviously you have to get the defense but what kind and when? And how does it affect the protoss?
Does it affects the protoss' tech timings, third, economy, third timing, etc?
In my opinion, you getting defence (as in spine crawlers or more than two queens) is probably the wrong thing to do. If he's going 1 gate expand or 2 gate expand, you should be punishing him for it. As soon as you scout his gateway(s), get gas and start working towards ling speed. In the first minute (before ling speed is started), just make exactly enough lings to beat back his zealots (4 lings per zealot) and the rest drones. Your scouting drone should see everything in terms of how many zealots he's making and if he's chronoboosting or not, so there's no reason for you to not have enough units. Once ling speed is started, you can decide to make pure ling to try to kill him or use your map control to get a 3rd.
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On June 14 2012 04:44 Clarity_nl wrote:
What is the optimal way to respond to a terran getting an ebay block off (like 10% health before I kill the scv, if it matters)
You should see the SCV coming, so what I do personally is pull about 4 drones to kill the SCV quickly and take down the ebay. If you let the ebay get more than 10% then you'll just be forced to pool first, possibly even take gas if you are delayed that much (since you need to spend that money somewhere whereas terran basically has 125 minerals frozen, so you need to gain an advantage by spending more money than terran is).
For him to pull an ebay block off he needs to pull an SCV after making his depot (maybe quicker), and by doing that all he does is start an ebay when you are about to throw down your hatch, so your overlord should see the quick SCV and so you need to pull 2 drones anyways due to him scv blocking you.
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On June 14 2012 04:44 Clarity_nl wrote:
What is the optimal way to respond to a terran getting an ebay block off (like 10% health before I kill the scv, if it matters)
If you get your hatch block you just have to immediately put your pool down. It just delays your hatch but it's not that big a deal. Produce 4 lings to clear the Ebay, put your hatch down and play normally.
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EPT
