EPTAs I mentioned before, suggestions on how to make the most out of practice session would be about all you could add to help on-hand learners.
The guides are more like for diamond+. They aren't meant for that low of a level.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 281
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
The guides are more like for diamond+. They aren't meant for that low of a level. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On June 12 2012 09:56 Belial88 wrote: When vs FFE, how do you deal with zealot/stalker pressure? I literally lost a game because someone chrono'd 2 zealots then a stalker out. I was like... what am I supposed to make against that? A spine takes too long and they just go to another base (i guess on some maps a spine is okay, but shakuras no way). Roaches kill your econ, lings won't work. wtf. What's even the cost to Toss. There's not like any timing that could abuse that, so they have like 2-3 less sentries at the 12:00 mark when they can have like 8 sentries with lots of support anyways against an all-in roach max. Your 4 initial lings + 8 additional lings was the relatively standard old method. These days, 2 queens at your 3rd works too. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 12 2012 09:56 Belial88 wrote: When vs FFE, how do you deal with zealot/stalker pressure? I literally lost a game because someone chrono'd 2 zealots then a stalker out. I was like... what am I supposed to make against that? A spine takes too long and they just go to another base (i guess on some maps a spine is okay, but shakuras no way). Roaches kill your econ, lings won't work. wtf. What's even the cost to Toss. There's not like any timing that could abuse that, so they have like 2-3 less sentries at the 12:00 mark when they can have like 8 sentries with lots of support anyways against an all-in roach max. Well let me first note that they lose the chronoboost on their upgrade/warpgate so any attack later on will be weaker or later. In response you will need to make 4-6 lings and whatever lings are still alive from the start, and simply fight with your queen. Whenever possible hit the stalker with the queen and micro some drones around if needed. The reason most protoss don't do it is because your sentry is so late, a bane bust would kill them. edit: ninjad  , although I feel 8 might be too many? I say this because of the queen range buff =] | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On June 12 2012 10:08 Clarity_nl wrote: Well let me first note that they lose the chronoboost on their upgrade/warpgate so any attack later on will be weaker or later. In response you will need to make 4-6 lings and whatever lings are still alive from the start, and simply fight with your queen. Whenever possible hit the stalker with the queen and micro some drones around if needed. The reason most protoss don't do it is because your sentry is so late, a bane bust would kill them. edit: ninjad , although I feel 8 might be too many? I say this because of the queen range buff =]Yea, I mentioned it was what you could do before the queen buff. But 8 additional lings also allows you to engage without queens, so you get the additional benefit of being able to deny proxy pylons, which a lot of the time, is the entire purpose of the gateway units. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 12 2012 10:51 NrGmonk wrote: Yea, I mentioned it was what you could do before the queen buff. But 8 additional lings also allows you to engage without queens, so you get the additional benefit of being able to deny proxy pylons, which a lot of the time, is the entire purpose of the gateway units. Fair point, although a pylon in some annoying corner with a zealot next to it still goes up I feel :p | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 12 2012 07:46 Servius_Fulvius wrote: I didn't say the guide was bad at all. Where guides are concerned it's actually very well written and helpful! They give early/mid/late game explanations, curcial benchmarks, how to interpret scouting, and how to react to given situations. I truly believe that lower level zergs looking to improve should have his comprehensive guides in small set of resources when learning about the game and improving. I also didn't say the guide should be rewritten, but I gave some suggestions that would help intuitive-based learners grasp the concepts. Specifically, I recommended that some practice techniques be included. Ultimately all learning styles will have to practice a whole lot As for your last sentence, this is a problem in academia, especially in my field (chemical engineering). Relatively few people actually KNOW their learning style and what study methods work best for them. SC2 isn't so different. This requires some introspection and a LOT of trial and error with ladder matches/practice games and not everyone is willing to do it. Those unwilling obviously won't do very well. I've done a lot of thinking about learning styles and improving at SC2, but don't worry, I don't plan on starting up a larger debate any time in the near future! Also, if you want a guide that specifically caters to active learners look no further than Filter's videos, but as Belial said, don't spend too much time watching them! As I mentioned before, suggestions on how to make the most out of practice session would be about all you could add to help on-hand learners. I have a hard time with cleanly separating replies, so I won't try and make a separate response to belial, flo, or servius. I just want to make clear to all that I'm not bashing on servius, I just wanted to make very clear to any lurkers and diamond or lower players reading this that belial's guides are an amazing resource, especially as a reference--when you need just that one hint as to how to approach fighting +2 blink all-ins, how to spot for various openings, etc. I worded my response a bit harshly because 90% of the cries for help in this thread can be solved by his guides, and I don't want anyone discouraged from using them. I think we're all in agreement about the learning styles, and it can't be said enough that actual playing trumps everything else. But I give serious credit to both belial and his guides for my rise to masters two seasons ago, so I find it difficult to hear a criticism of the guides that turns out to be a weirdly worded critique of guides in general. | ||
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Aelendis
Belgium892 Posts
On June 12 2012 00:35 Clarity_nl wrote: ZvT is always hatch first, no matter what, no exceptions. (right now there is actually a [D] thread about pool first ZvT but I stand by this. 15 hatch 16 pool double queen > 3rd queen single gas ~25 OR double gas ~35 double melee upgrades > third lair > take all gasses > 2/2 and infestors With a lategame plan to go ultra. Although this is a correct game plan, and is even what I do myself in ZvT, I just want to precise that he asked for what Stephano's opening was. As far as I know, Stephano opens 15 hatch, 17 pool, 17 gas, then pull drones off gas at 100 and research metabolic boost. Since he takes gas, he is only able to make 3 queens. Later (i don't know the exact numbers, sorry), he makes a roach warren and a few roaches (I'd say 4) to deal with hellions and take map control back. He then transit to the plan written above, double upgrades, lair, upgrades 2/2, infestors, hive and so on... He goes most of the time ultras and not BLs, I think. The most recent replays available are from the Red Bull Battlegrounds, if I'm not mistaken, you should check them out. | ||
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tryq
Germany24 Posts
When do you take your third when you see a gate opening by the protoss? I just try to scout, but if he blocks his ramp do i need to suicide an overlord that early(for 4gate or sth like this)? Often the protoss just plays gateway expand and when i see the nexus i start my third immediately. What is the timing for gateway expand? | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On June 12 2012 21:27 tryq wrote: I have a question about zvp(I am top plat): When do you take your third when you see a gate opening by the protoss? I just try to scout, but if he blocks his ramp do i need to suicide an overlord that early(for 4gate or sth like this)? Often the protoss just plays gateway expand and when i see the nexus i start my third immediately. What is the timing for gateway expand? Taking your third when you see him expand sounds like a good idea. I would personnally recommend an overlord sac if no expand after 6 min to check if he is teching or 4 gating you. There are different timings for the expand, each of which is a good sign for a specific strat. - expand around 5:00 // 5:15 indicates a one gate expand. So you should see him make two more gates in front of his nat. it's safe for you to expand (but still you can expect early pressure, as otherwise he would have FFE). - expand around 5:45 indicates a regular 3 gate expand. it should go with quite a lot of sentries. - Expand at around 6:30 indicates some DT or Stargate. Of course, this supposes that your opponent has precise timings, and that he is not metagaming you... so don't overreact, maybe he is just playing weird; just make sure you have the tools to react to what is most likely coming. Same if the timing is kind of "in between". This takes time to learn, but try to see what he has: a 6:10 expand with a lot of units most likely indicates a late 3 gate expand; while the same timing with no units indicates a risky early expand with DT or stargate play. Also, remember that these can be fake expands preparing for a 4 gate (although quite uncommon nowadays). | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
like: how many BLs, infestors, corruptor, drones, queens, unit x (hydra, ling, bling etc.) should you have to fight the deathball. i honestly hate how stupidly easy and strong it is to do 2 vortexes which means at least 2/3 of your army is gone and he just blinks to kill the other 1/3. BL/infestor is just so weak without 20 spines under it... would be really nice if anybody has a good idea and plz NOT "split BLs better" (its impossible to split vs 2 vortexes AND after that you still need enough army to fight the rest of Ps army) or ideas like "NP mothership". already tried spamming ITs to prevent archons from getting in but with HT in the mix infestor get either feedbacked or IT stormed so archons get in anyway. eventually just go some BLs defensively behind spines and dropharrass toss with other units since he is spread on at least 4 base? | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
http://replayfu.com/download/WxZwTg | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On June 12 2012 23:49 Decendos wrote: whats your "perfect" army composition vs lategame P if mothership is out? like: how many BLs, infestors, corruptor, drones, queens, unit x (hydra, ling, bling etc.) should you have to fight the deathball. i honestly hate how stupidly easy and strong it is to do 2 vortexes which means at least 2/3 of your army is gone and he just blinks to kill the other 1/3. BL/infestor is just so weak without 20 spines under it... would be really nice if anybody has a good idea and plz NOT "split BLs better" (its impossible to split vs 2 vortexes AND after that you still need enough army to fight the rest of Ps army) or ideas like "NP mothership". already tried spamming ITs to prevent archons from getting in but with HT in the mix infestor get either feedbacked or IT stormed so archons get in anyway. eventually just go some BLs defensively behind spines and dropharrass toss with other units since he is spread on at least 4 base? I wrote a long response but I think you are just qqing about balance. Some people say use banelings. Others, like myself, use IT spam to prevent the mothership from getting too close. If you are letting toss get to 4 base, that may be the problem. I don't think it's possible to beat toss when he's on 5 base... maybe 4. Extreme lategame warp prism with over 30 gateways can be ridiculous. a la hero vs curious, for example. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On June 13 2012 05:10 Belial88 wrote: I wrote a long response but I think you are just qqing about balance. Some people say use banelings. Others, like myself, use IT spam to prevent the mothership from getting too close. If you are letting toss get to 4 base, that may be the problem. I don't think it's possible to beat toss when he's on 5 base... maybe 4. Extreme lategame warp prism with over 30 gateways can be ridiculous. a la hero vs curious, for example. well actually yes, i was really pissed after that game since its not the only lategame i lost vs toss. the only time i win lategame is if they get MS too late or i was REALLY ahead after midgame. fact is that even with 15 BLs you just cant split the BLs so good he doesnt get at least 7-9 of them, which leaves you with 6 BLs to fight his deathball. 6 BLs just do nothing to a P deathball since the BL DPS ist really bad once he has enough archons/storm/colossi to deal with broodlings. and its not like i am the only one having this problem. there are many pros who lose to double vortex once they attack since if you attack and there arent 20 spines under the BLs after double vortexing he just blinks in 30 stalker and snipes the BLs that werent in vortex and remaxes that stalker instantly. perhaps 2-3 ultras under my BLs and some less BLs instead since their purpose isnt to do damage that lategame and ultras rape stalker? i just dont know how you should beat MS/archon/stalker/colossi/archon deathball and he can easily get there on 4 base. plus i didnt max to 220-230/supply which i definetly should do if i have the minerals/gas. would be really nice if somebody could offer some tips. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
You should be more aggressive it sounds too, toss should never have the energy banked for a double vortex. why dont you post the replay | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
 well the IT thing is...hmm. it works sometimes but if he has storm one storm kills like 20-30 ITs = a LOT of energy. so happy air vortex is out in HOTS. thx anyway, will try some more things. ^^ | ||
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silentdecay01
United States106 Posts
I been having issues in ZvZ. vs zerg who cut corrners and go stright for roaches. I thought that going roach after 15 hatch cripples your ecom. I go 15 hatch, into speed/baneling and try to harras his 15 hatch, but I never face the cookie cutter baneling vs baneling early game anymore, They go stright for roaches, with spines to protect. I can sometimes kill off his queen at natural or get a few drones. But they often have 7-8 roaches out before hand. when I look at the replays he suffers no ecom and still able to get drones equle to mine. Any advise.? or I'm doing it wrong. My build is 15 hatch, 16 pool, 16 gas, first 100 gas goes to speed, next 100 gas goes towards baneling nest. I make few lings/banes try to harras, while droneing up. I end up dying after my harras he just sends 8-9 roaches to kill me. Should I start skipping baneling nest and go toward roaches, or should I skip harrasing and go for roach warren after banelings asp? I feel like I'm behind in ecom if I go for roach warren after baneling nest right away if I see he skiped his baneling nest and went for roaches. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
as for him being equal in worker. roaches cost a lot less larvae than your ling/bling so he has more larvae for drones. too early roaches are not that good in my opinion since he cant really get a fast third with some roaches and slow lings. just go your build and build a spine + 2 banes to hold possible all ins and get a fast 3rd base + roach warren. if he moves out with that early roaches just build mass ling and you will crush him. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
next time, got pretty angry in chat well the IT thing is...hmm. it works sometimes but if he has storm one storm kills like 20-30 ITs = a LOT of energy. so happy air vortex is out in HOTS. thx anyway, will try some more things. ^^ Once you have about 10+ broodlords, there is no way he can really field HT anymore. Broodlords outrange HT by a lot, and kill them quite quickly. He'll need a lot more than 1 storm to kill the many IT you spam. You should really be on pure bl/infestor, probably off of 4 bases, definitely 5. Any advise.? or I'm doing it wrong. It's pretty obvious what the problem is. You are making a ton of ling/bane to pressure, and the opponent is making roaches. Roaches counter banelings. Roaches definitely kill your econ early game, but not if the opponent is killing their own econ by trying to do ling/bane aggression. That's probably the worst thing you can do against roach play - making banelings. Just drone hard against it, and if he pushes out, 3-5 spines with reactive speedlings should be enough depending how all-in and late it is. Stop with your 'harass'. Sounds more like you are just all-inning. You should only make the bare minimum of banelings to survive mass lings, and you are only making them because your'd rather make a few banes than lots of lings. After making an initial 2 banelings, you shouldn't be making any more ling/bane except to scout, if you see him make ling/bane, or to take your third. If you are doing a 2 base play like muta/infestor, then you don't even need to make any more banes. You also probably have some macro issues, I imagine you aren't spending your larva consistently either. Need a replay to really figure out. But if you are equal in drones to a roach player, you are definitely doing it wrong, and quite simply, you aren't making enough drones, one way or another - either bad macro, or you are overmaking units. | ||
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silentdecay01
United States106 Posts
On June 13 2012 05:58 Decendos wrote: well you shouldnt go ling bling aggression anymore since players got pretty good at defending it. if you scout he has no spine/extra queens/blings/roaches you still can get aggressive but getting aggressive just like that works only vs worse players than you are yourself. as for him being equal in worker. roaches cost a lot less larvae than your ling/bling so he has more larvae for drones. too early roaches are not that good in my opinion since he cant really get a fast third with some roaches and slow lings. just go your build and build a spine + 2 banes to hold possible all ins and get a fast 3rd base + roach warren. if he moves out with that early roaches just build mass ling and you will crush him. Alright. how many spines? 2-3 spines don't work is hits early with 8-10 roaches and some lings, banes are not to effective vs roaches early game. and I will be hind in drone count with i mass enough lings to stop his roach attack. Would opening with 14/14 pool/gas be more effective vs 15 hatch to harras before he can grab enough roaches? | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On June 13 2012 06:05 silentdecay01 wrote: Alright. how many spines? 2-3 spines don't work is hits early with 8-10 roaches and some lings, banes are not to effective vs roaches early game. and I will be hind in drone count with i mass enough lings to stop his roach attack. Would opening with 14/14 pool/gas be more effective vs 15 hatch to harras before he can grab enough roaches? you stop 8-10 roaches easy with mass lings, you have 1 spine and 1 queen. thats really enough. small numbers of roaches are actually really bad vs lings. after his attack you will be able to drone a lot, take your 3rd while he cant take a 3rd anytime soon, so basically if he attacks with 10 roaches that early its a really hard all in. you could also build a 2nd spine but i prefer more lings since you can save your 3rd easier. | ||
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