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On June 09 2012 04:51 Maxamix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 04:41 Kecos wrote:http://drop.sc/193952ZvT, he does a 1rax expand and then blocks my ramp. I take a quick 3rd, but he attacks and just destroys me. Was I not supposed to tech up so much? I really need help with zvt -.- League you are in? it will help my analisys Expect said analisys to be dine in about 1h30, given i know what league you are in
All replays from dropsc give you the rank of the players. Kecos is diamond. It doesn't really matter what league he's in anyway because (a) watching the replay gives you a good idea and (b) the advice should not be different based on leagues. I've watched a ton of replays from this thread and have seen diamond zergs with great macro and poor late-game transitions to gm's with lackluster early-game macro.
Anyway...
Hi Kecos!
You tried to get an absurdly early third base. This isn't ZvP, so you should take it a little later with a little bit of protection. Give this roach opener a try: (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306582)....the date of the original post is old, but it was updated for the queen range buff.
The biggest reason you lost is because the terran did a timing attack and you didn't scout it until it was at the middle of the map. Your speedlings should be poking the front to get an idea of unit composition. Terrans don't make that many hellions for light harassment, so you really needed zergling/baneling and maybe a few roaches to hold it off efficiently and then make your mutas and drone away. The great part about thwarting timing attacks is because you have a free pass to drone for at least an inject cycle.
As for general help with ZvT, Belial's guide gives a good rough overview, though a lot of the theory is easier said than done: (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023)
On June 09 2012 00:54 Belial88 wrote:
Are people just unaware of my guide?
Yes. They definitely beat the current state of liquipedia and are some of the best guides for zergs below mid-masters. They're not the "be all end all", but they certainly got me practicing the right things!
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^ Thanks for the kind words. Maybe I should have the guides linked in my signature or something, for the newer poster, so I'm not ansewring the same question over and over.
Why aren't my guides the be all end all of guides? I hope that they are completely comprehensive, and are as in-depth as any guide could possibly go. Let me know if you think there is anything missing.
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On June 09 2012 11:40 Belial88 wrote:
^ Thanks for the kind words. Maybe I should have the guides linked in my signature or something, for the newer poster, so I'm not ansewring the same question over and over.
Why aren't my guides the be all end all of guides? I hope that they are completely comprehensive, and are as in-depth as any guide could possibly go. Let me know if you think there is anything missing.
Your guide is particularly good for global learners, sequential learners, and "thinkers" (a la Meyer/Briggs). This makes for a particularly good text-book style guide. However, there isn't a lot of "active learning" in a guide. Those considered "feelers" and other intuitive and practice-based learning styles generally do not learn very well from guides (or, for that matter, lecture-based classes where you sit and listen the whole time). Practice partners are invaluable for these learning styles, but that's a resource gained outside the guide. Day9 is pretty good with active learning, especially #285.
I'm not exactly sure there's much you could add to cater to those who learn this way. Active approaches are the best and that's done through consistent practice. This is best done with other people and it is tough to find a good practice partner (or one that doesn't say zerg is OP -_-). The ladder is inconsistent and it could take a really long time to learn a proper defense for say, a +2 blink all-in. I think the best thing you could do is suggest good practice methods. Things like "play against a computer until you can get to 70 supply on three bases at 8:00 and with roach tech on the way and then quit" or "X is a good micro trainer" or "use an inject alarm for a couple games and then turn it off". A large amount of work goes into being able to play competently and things like this help gear us for the journey!
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On June 09 2012 04:41 Kecos wrote:http://drop.sc/193952ZvT, he does a 1rax expand and then blocks my ramp. I take a quick 3rd, but he attacks and just destroys me. Was I not supposed to tech up so much? I really need help with zvt -.-
As a side note, sorry for the delay in anwering, my ISP went black for a good 5 hours yesterday
Ok so now on the analisys.
Servius landed right on it. You did not scout him at any point. Your worker scout did not even get into the base so for all that you knew he could have gone for a lot of build. You had the OV in place to scout but you never used it. At some point I thought wou were waiting for lair, making it a OS dropping a changeling and stuff but it never happened. Would you have known about that timing push you could have defended it easily and be in such a lead.
I feel like not knowing the gas timing for terran is the worst pain of all. If you can't actually see the raffs you need to deduct from the units you see.
I'm pretty sure you know all of this (or a big part anyways).
And again sry for the late reply
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Hello everyone, I am currently seeking advice on how to improve my gameplay and what to look out for:
http://drop.sc/194955
Here is a recent game of me making a crucial mistake against a Terran, basically, I flew my entire army to his 3 o'clock base and he just pushed and crushed me, that was entirely my bad (no, this is not a QQ). The game is a bit longish, but if some pro Zerg player can take a look at it and say what do I need to improve and another thing:
- how to conquer the fear of attacking a Terran? I see Siege Tanks and I get scared to death.
Note about the game:
- I've been stuck on Ultras maybe a bit too long.
- Too afraid to attack even though I had gazillion of resources.
- I did not harass enough.
- Engagements could have been better.
- Failed split at the start.
- Reactively pulled my Air Units away from my base since I thought the Terran will be coming after them. However, due to the amount of SCVs I managed to kill, if I retreated the Brood Lords and rebuilt, I probably could have won instead of parking my Brood Lords outside of my own base.
That's what I could muster up, if anyone can point out more wrongs, tips and advices it is more than welcome. Thank you in advance 
Edit: I did not scout the Terran at the start simply because I saw the expansion+bunch of marines and I knew he couldn't be going Hellions for early harass. Oh yes, and I am a Gold-Platinum Zerg.
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When rushing Hive in ZvP ie. opening Roach / Ling / Infestor, is it best to pull drones out of gas at 100 for speed or keep them in for a fast lair?
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 10 2012 10:20 AceLight wrote:
When rushing Hive in ZvP ie. opening Roach / Ling / Infestor, is it best to pull drones out of gas at 100 for speed or keep them in for a fast lair?
You want to keep Gas coming. Lair+Roach Speed+Upgrades+Infestation Pit+Glance+Roaches+Infestors, you want to keep gas coming in.
Also, it depends when you get the gas. If you're getting the Gas at 3 or so minutes, then, yes, it is worth to take Drones off gas up to 5-6 min mark.
But again, you cannot really say "I'm gonna do this and that" as Zerg.
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Ok I'm having extreme difficulties vs double stargate openings. My opponent can have the most awful low-econ build in the world and I still won't be able to do a damned thing to them even if I've managed to macro to almost 70 supply by the 8 minute mark. Just to give an example, I offer this replay. PLEASE help me figure out what in the hell can stop this. Spores don't do it. Queens don't do it. Hydras are too late. Spire is too late. They just mass some voids and kill off my lair with charged voids.
http://replayfu.com/download/0VW7nj
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 10 2012 10:57 sCCrooked wrote:Ok I'm having extreme difficulties vs double stargate openings. My opponent can have the most awful low-econ build in the world and I still won't be able to do a damned thing to them even if I've managed to macro to almost 70 supply by the 8 minute mark. Just to give an example, I offer this replay. PLEASE help me figure out what in the hell can stop this. Spores don't do it. Queens don't do it. Hydras are too late. Spire is too late. They just mass some voids and kill off my lair with charged voids. http://replayfu.com/download/0VW7nj
You made too many mistakes regarding decision making.
- You never made Hydras.
- You kept on massing Roaches when those resources could have been invested in Hydras.
- You relied too heavily on a 100second-build time Spire.
- You did not scout the Stargates with your Overlord, that Photon Cannon should have raised suspicions, as it was in the most awkward position.
- You never confirmed his Natural is up, you just assumed it was there because of Forge and a couple of Cannons.
- If your opponent invests so much money in so many Void Rays, Hydras are your only solution, as you will not have enough Gas and time to get Spire and Corruptors before you lose almost everything.
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Considering ideal situations, lets pretend I do a standard 15 pool 15 hatch 21 gas in ZvP, wanting to go Ling-Infestor-Roach into Fast Hive. When I have enough Gas for speed, should I take all my drones out of gas until 6 minutes, Leave 1 drone in gas (what I'm doing now) or just keep mining gas?
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I've been interested in more of a more heavy mid-game style for ZVP and ZVT
So what is the best way to reach mutas in each of these meta-games? I assume the 2-base muta build is outdated what-with all the changes
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Hello all,
This is my first post on Team Liquid, I am a gold level zerg player. I was watching MLG Spring Championships and I was watching DongRaeGu playing I believe it was Sase, a ZvP. He went with a 3 hatch no gas build, which is the same opening I always use and transition into fast 200/200 on roaches. However DRG took a different route in transitioning to mutas. My question is how do I pull this off on ladder? I always end up needing the roaches for the scary 2-base pushes protoss tend to make. What are some tips for using this muta-ling build against a protoss without losing to a mid-game push?
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On June 10 2012 15:30 Ancamdrew wrote:
Hello all,
This is my first post on Team Liquid, I am a gold level zerg player. I was watching MLG Spring Championships and I was watching DongRaeGu playing I believe it was Sase, a ZvP. He went with a 3 hatch no gas build, which is the same opening I always use and transition into fast 200/200 on roaches. However DRG took a different route in transitioning to mutas. My question is how do I pull this off on ladder? I always end up needing the roaches for the scary 2-base pushes protoss tend to make. What are some tips for using this muta-ling build against a protoss without losing to a mid-game push?
Well basically, you want to transition to mutas after any threat of 2 base all in is gone, not before. So you can make roaches and lings, and when you see him trying to expand, or teching quite a lot, then you can transition to mutas.
Here is more information about this strategy:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277693
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 10 2012 12:10 AceLight wrote:
Considering ideal situations, lets pretend I do a standard 15 pool 15 hatch 21 gas in ZvP, wanting to go Ling-Infestor-Roach into Fast Hive. When I have enough Gas for speed, should I take all my drones out of gas until 6 minutes, Leave 1 drone in gas (what I'm doing now) or just keep mining gas?
It is very situational. What is the Protoss doing? Is he getting ready for a 2-base timing? Is he going for a Sentry/Immortal push? Because you need to prepare for such an attack with Lings/Roaches/whatever. Try to test it out against an Easy Computer, see what timing you want to have your army while mining gas and while not mining gas. Remember, upgrades are vital against Protoss, especially against a Protoss that will do a +1 timing attack.
On June 10 2012 14:05 Monsyphon wrote:
I've been interested in more of a more heavy mid-game style for ZVP and ZVT
So what is the best way to reach mutas in each of these meta-games? I assume the 2-base muta build is outdated what-with all the changes
You always want to be one base above your opponent, so, you will most likely be on 3-base if you reached the mid-game WHILE teching. Against Protoss you usually get your third between 25-35 supply and against Terran, I do it much later, around 40-50, simply because they can do a very early harass with Hellion/Banshee. 3-base muta is fine.
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On June 10 2012 16:02 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 15:30 Ancamdrew wrote:
Hello all,
This is my first post on Team Liquid, I am a gold level zerg player. I was watching MLG Spring Championships and I was watching DongRaeGu playing I believe it was Sase, a ZvP. He went with a 3 hatch no gas build, which is the same opening I always use and transition into fast 200/200 on roaches. However DRG took a different route in transitioning to mutas. My question is how do I pull this off on ladder? I always end up needing the roaches for the scary 2-base pushes protoss tend to make. What are some tips for using this muta-ling build against a protoss without losing to a mid-game push? Well basically, you want to transition to mutas after any threat of 2 base all in is gone, not before. So you can make roaches and lings, and when you see him trying to expand, or teching quite a lot, then you can transition to mutas. Here is more information about this strategy: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277693
Thank you! Very helpful
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On June 10 2012 10:20 AceLight wrote:
When rushing Hive in ZvP ie. opening Roach / Ling / Infestor, is it best to pull drones out of gas at 100 for speed or keep them in for a fast lair?
Even when doing this you generally do not want to be opening speedling. Something like a 14 pool 20 hatch is much better, then if you decide you don't want to take a fast third against FFE (which is standard) you simply drop two gasses, get lair/speed and follow it up with 3rd and 4th gas.
Opening speedling just puts you behind.
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How do I deal correctly with those annoying roach/baneling busts off fast expansion?
ZvZ obviously.
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I am a high gold player struggling to beat plat's of all races can someone give me tips on what will help me advance to plat thankyou !
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On June 11 2012 05:09 Droneking wrote:I am a high gold player struggling to beat plat's of all races can someone give me tips on what will help me advance to plat thankyou !
Have a gameplan before the game starts and stick to it.
Write down some benchmarks from pro players and compare them to yours.
Pick specific things to work on during a game and measure your progress through that, not through winning or losing.
Example might be creep spread: No matter what happens you WILL spread your creep fast, that way even when you lose you get to look at the game and say: "But man was my creepspread awesome!"
Focus less on winning/getting promoted, focus more on improving!
On June 11 2012 04:59 Advocado wrote:
How do I deal correctly with those annoying roach/baneling busts off fast expansion?
ZvZ obviously.
There really is no other real answer than roaches of your own.
When you see your opponent move out with a ton of roaches spend all your gas on roaches and any leftover minerals should go to spine crawlers. Try to keep any lings you have back until you have taken out his banelings.
If your opponent moves out with a ton of roaches and lings rallied behind and you don't have roaches of your own the only real chance you have are counter-attacks, hoping to draw him back to his base or winning a base race.
The main thing about holding this is scouting though, regularly scout your opponent's front to see what he's up to. Check for saturation at his expansion, and if it seems he doesn't have much do some light pressure to force him to show possibly hidden units.
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Hi, I'm switchin back to zerg ( ~master) but I can't remember the early-midage in ZvT and ZvZ. I don't know at all what builds are now popular in zvt, especially with queen changes.
ZvZ the builds I did are right now outdated. I wonder if theres a build/opening for 2base muta and the standard 3base roachhydrainfestor play(and by that I mean a build that is good for taking 3rd base).
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EPT
