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The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 278
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aXa
France748 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=262787 | ||
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Guamshin
Netherlands295 Posts
ZvP , i go 3 hatch before gas, i scout him going the immortal sentry expand after FFE build so i mass roach/ling, eventually i managed to take down his third and i do some economic damage while teching and taking bases myself but a little bit after i killed his third i did a tech switch to ling/infestor, and i feel like thats why i lost. Can someone confirm this and give me some tips about tech switching? (im really afraid of collosus deathballs) I feel like i should have continued roaches and make a few infestors instead. | ||
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Kmatt
United States1019 Posts
Replay: http://replayfu.com/download/JKTtmh | ||
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HelloSon
United States456 Posts
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
The first one being is how many Queens do you make in a game? I usually stick with only 4 (3 for first three expansion Hatcheries and one for creep spread later being used for macro hatch). Is it worth the supply to go 6-7 Queens as I see some players do, and, besides the obvious (more larvae), is it worth the supply to get that extra larvae? Also, for ZvT and ZvP. In ZvT I feel stuck when a Terran is going for mass Hellions at the start (8-10 of them), and then just camping them out of my natural, since I am so tempted to go mass Ling/Bling since almost every Terran follows it up with standard Marine/Tank play and I always scout it with the Overlord. Are Roaches worth an investment and should I continue producing them into the Marine/Tank army? Sure, they can take the Tanks down faster and can tank some of the damage, but again, are they worth it? For ZvP. I kind-of feel stuck with Roaches. If a Protoss just falls back to his 2-base, what should I do with my Roaches? As in the next 3-4 minutes they will become free meat for the Protoss (no, this is not a QQ, it's just the fact that my Tier 1 units cannot handle his Tier 3 units). I usually try to deny the Third, but if the mini-Death Ball moves there, is it worth to Trade all of my Roaches for some Sentry/Immortal snipes? And then transition into Corr/BL/Infestor (if the toss doesn't counter-attack ofc, which will force me to go Roaches again and Corruptors for Colossi). Macro-wise question: In every match-up, I have the need to take my gas earlier than most guides do. Simply because I either want to bank it for Muta harass (in Terran's case), or I want to bank it a bit for Roaches (against Protoss ofc). I usually try to do this as soon as my main mineral line is saturated (same goes for Natural), after the initial transfer of a few Drones of course. Is this a waste of larvae and Drones that early in the game? As I am a player who likes to get his upgrades quite fast, as I always feel so squishy once shitload of Siege Tanks are out, or Colossi/Immortals. Thank you in advance. | ||
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phrenzy
United Kingdom478 Posts
On June 07 2012 09:28 Belial88 wrote: As for 4 gate +1, that's a chance for you to get ahead or behind on. There's no reason for Toss to be able to take a third if you defended it adequately, so obviously you failed there. If you rely too much on spines, yea, toss can get a third. You should have roach/lings when he has too little production to even deal with slowling/roach. You should probably be getting hive quicker, standard hive timing in zvp is around 15 minute, even quicker if you are going infestors. Thank you, i will check out your guide and the advice you gave has helped me already. But one thing sticks in my mind. If i shutdown all pylons and all possible warp ins, with only 5-10 lings. Should i make a bunch of units to shutdown his third or take the opportunity to drone more? This the part im a sketchy on. I will know if he decides to warp in at his base a push across the map so it seems like i can drone more if he takes a third, but currently protoss players are create walls that would rivial china's. S if a make roach/ling and hurl it at him its basically a bunch of free units for them, since it will take a few production cycles to reach max where he will be more than adequately prepared. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On June 08 2012 01:09 Guamshin wrote: http://drop.sc/193190 ZvP , i go 3 hatch before gas, i scout him going the immortal sentry expand after FFE build so i mass roach/ling, eventually i managed to take down his third and i do some economic damage while teching and taking bases myself but a little bit after i killed his third i did a tech switch to ling/infestor, and i feel like thats why i lost. Can someone confirm this and give me some tips about tech switching? (im really afraid of collosus deathballs) I feel like i should have continued roaches and make a few infestors instead. So I watched your replay and will DEFINITELY be stealing some of your overlord timings within the first 8 minutes. You had 69 supply at the 8 minute benchmark. Macro wasn't too bad at all! Actually the whole game was great until about 15 minutes.....then it looked like you were kind of lost. First thing I'll point out is with destroying the third base. You only destroyed the Nexus. Toss had 164 supply when it fell and an entire army behind it. The muta transition was nice and gave you map control. The problem is you didn't take advantage of this. At the 15 minute mark there are 10 mutas close to finishing, a good deal of tech, and a finished fourth base. You didn't get the gasses very quickly and after the muta and infestor switch your tech didn't go anywhere for a long time. When you have map control you can do things like expand again, get hive, put down another spire for BL/infestor, etc. Your infestor/ling usage wasn't bad, but it ultimately wasn't enough. You stopped upgrading, put down a ton of hatcheries, and then made ultras? Ultras aren't good in ZvP. They were not the least bit cost-effective. Also, when using infestor/ling before the tier 3 tech arrives it's great to have a wall of spine crawlers. You have a ton of extra minerals since gas in the limiting resource and it buys a good chunk of time to maximize your army. If I were you I'd get the fourth's gasses and hive after the mutas finish, take a fifth to mine the gas, put down a second spire, morph G-spire, continue melee/carapace upgrades as well as air upgrades behind spine crawlers. If you're set on an infestor/ling midgame then that's fine, but you should really go BL instead of ultra. | ||
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arjuna
United States2 Posts
i'm sory if this just seems like samantics, I am just trying to tweek every little part of my game. next to missing injects, being supply blocked is about as awful of a thing that can happen, so i want to be sure i am on the right path for correcting it. Thank you! | ||
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ChriseC
Germany440 Posts
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Guamshin
Netherlands295 Posts
On June 08 2012 08:30 Servius_Fulvius wrote: So I watched your replay and will DEFINITELY be stealing some of your overlord timings within the first 8 minutes. You had 69 supply at the 8 minute benchmark. Macro wasn't too bad at all! Actually the whole game was great until about 15 minutes.....then it looked like you were kind of lost. First thing I'll point out is with destroying the third base. You only destroyed the Nexus. Toss had 164 supply when it fell and an entire army behind it. The muta transition was nice and gave you map control. The problem is you didn't take advantage of this. At the 15 minute mark there are 10 mutas close to finishing, a good deal of tech, and a finished fourth base. You didn't get the gasses very quickly and after the muta and infestor switch your tech didn't go anywhere for a long time. When you have map control you can do things like expand again, get hive, put down another spire for BL/infestor, etc. Your infestor/ling usage wasn't bad, but it ultimately wasn't enough. You stopped upgrading, put down a ton of hatcheries, and then made ultras? Ultras aren't good in ZvP. They were not the least bit cost-effective. Also, when using infestor/ling before the tier 3 tech arrives it's great to have a wall of spine crawlers. You have a ton of extra minerals since gas in the limiting resource and it buys a good chunk of time to maximize your army. If I were you I'd get the fourth's gasses and hive after the mutas finish, take a fifth to mine the gas, put down a second spire, morph G-spire, continue melee/carapace upgrades as well as air upgrades behind spine crawlers. If you're set on an infestor/ling midgame then that's fine, but you should really go BL instead of ultra. Ah i see i should have gone for blinfestor much earlier, i had resources and it seems i had the time to get it. Thank you. | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
I know things don't always go as planned but it would give a good idea of what to strive for before teching to lair/hive/expand. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
But one thing sticks in my mind. If i shutdown all pylons and all possible warp ins, with only 5-10 lings. Should i make a bunch of units to shutdown his third or take the opportunity to drone more? This the part im a sketchy on. I will know if he decides to warp in at his base a push across the map so it seems like i can drone more if he takes a third, but currently protoss players are create walls that would rivial china's. S if a make roach/ling and hurl it at him its basically a bunch of free units for them, since it will take a few production cycles to reach max where he will be more than adequately prepared. Against a good player, 5-10 lings won't shut down his warp-ins (he pushes out with zealot/stalker and probe, he hid his probe somewhere good, etc) and why are you making so many lings so early in the game anyways? 4 is all you should have, and lings are near useless against +1 4 gate. You need roaches, not lings, and a spine can buy time, but isn't the answer. He should not be able to take a third against a round of speedlings and your already made roaches if you hold his pressure with minimal losses, since he has no sentries or tech. You need a 6:30 roach warren, any later is too late and you will fall behind due to his pressure. A spine can buy you some time if you make it at 6:50, but you really need it at 6:30 or a spine+warren before 7:00 Check out the replay section of my ZvP guide where I show DRG holding 4 gate +1. Ask yourself, is there any way Toss could take his third immediately? DRG goes on to lose the game, but much, much later, for droning way too hard and not getting tech (mutas, infestors) or more army (he took 5th and 6th gas and was at like 80 drones when he should have stopped at 60) | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
hello! i have a question about being supply blocked. I have finally reached a point where if I have larva and cash to spend, then I have enough supply to use most or all of it. My questions is, am i technically still supply blocked if for instance I have 16 larva, make 14 food of units and hit my current supply limit? I then use the last 2 larva to make OVs for the next round. i'm sory if this just seems like samantics, I am just trying to tweek every little part of my game. next to missing injects, being supply blocked is about as awful of a thing that can happen, so i want to be sure i am on the right path for correcting it. Thank you! Yes. Supply block means when you are at your supply cap. It's okay to be supply blocked at 200/200. It's perfect if you can time every overlord to supply block you for 1 millisecond before you hit "D" or "R" or "Z" or whatever you want to morph that larva. When you are getting to about 50 supply on 3 hatches, that's when you need to consider making 2 overlords at once. If you are getting supply blocked on just 2 hatches, you are doing it completely wrong. So yea, work on that. how to hold 3immortal allin at 10min? The search engine hard counters this push. My guide is also a soft counter to the immortal/sentry all-in. How have you posted 180 times and not be at this level yet? Good Macro Benchmarks for the 3 MU ? I know things don't always go as planned but it would give a good idea of what to strive for before teching to lair/hive/expand. 15 minute hive, or hive when taking fourth (or 3rd if you open infestors) Lair about 10-20 supply after third depending how greedy you want to be (the later it is, later the tech and softer you hit but wayyy more drones you have, so depends on how aggressive/defensive you want to be and how all-innish you want to be) ~24 supply third in ZvP vs FFE ~35 supply third in ZvP vs gateway expand ~35 supply roach/evo in ZvP vs 1 base play that hasn't expanded by 5:31 ~40 supply third in ZvT vs terran who expanded ~45 supply third in ZvZ vs zerg who isn't going roach/ling all-in (gets lair, third himself, did ling/bane aggression) Lair ~45 supply when going 2 base play Lair ~65 supply when going 3 base play Max out before 12 minute if massing roaches on 3 base Max out before 15 minute in general | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On June 08 2012 11:39 Belial88 wrote: Yes. Supply block means when you are at your supply cap. It's okay to be supply blocked at 200/200. It's perfect if you can time every overlord to supply block you for 1 millisecond before you hit "D" or "R" or "Z" or whatever you want to morph that larva. When you are getting to about 50 supply on 3 hatches, that's when you need to consider making 2 overlords at once. If you are getting supply blocked on just 2 hatches, you are doing it completely wrong. So yea, work on that. The search engine hard counters this push. My guide is also a soft counter to the immortal/sentry all-in. How have you posted 180 times and not be at this level yet? 15 minute hive, or hive when taking fourth (or 3rd if you open infestors) Lair about 10-20 supply after third depending how greedy you want to be (the later it is, later the tech and softer you hit but wayyy more drones you have, so depends on how aggressive/defensive you want to be and how all-innish you want to be) ~24 supply third in ZvP vs FFE ~35 supply third in ZvP vs gateway expand ~35 supply roach/evo in ZvP vs 1 base play that hasn't expanded by 5:31 ~40 supply third in ZvT vs terran who expanded ~45 supply third in ZvZ vs zerg who isn't going roach/ling all-in (gets lair, third himself, did ling/bane aggression) Lair ~45 supply when going 2 base play Lair ~65 supply when going 3 base play Max out before 12 minute if massing roaches on 3 base Max out before 15 minute in general Excellent thanks Belial | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 08 2012 09:54 ChriseC wrote: how to hold 3immortal allin at 10min? Context context context. I imagine you're talking about the two base all-in. The answer to any two base all-in by protoss is macro. Try opening up a replay and check your benchmarks by the one in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324733 In the thread it says you should be at 160 food at the 11 min mark if you go with this quick three base 60 drone 4 gas style. I tend to be around the 130-140 realm myself during an actual game and I'm ~mid-masters on EU, so don't be too harsh on yourself. Try to remember that this is with 4 lings made and nothing else until you are at 60 drones, so any pressure will slow both your timings. If you don't believe this is your problem please make a more descriptive post, or even better, post a replay. edit: to belial, not sure how someone's post count has any correlation to someone's relative skill. ^_^ | ||
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Archile
United States403 Posts
thanks. | ||
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blackwaltz3
54 Posts
I understand there are many ways of hotkeying them, but I would like to hear some advice and good grouping methods that have worked for you guys. Personally, I have a group for lords, a group for infestors. Everything else (corruptors ground army and overseers) are in a group. It sometimes give me trouble, eg overseers going rampant, or when I morph these corruptors into bls and they are still on this group and these 'new' broodlords are always out of place. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On June 08 2012 21:53 Archile wrote: In ZvP, what is the best time to transition into brood lords? and how do you hold fast 3 base pushes based off of robo armies (immortals + maybe a colossus or 2 + gateway units) before you transition to brood lords? thanks. My zvp guide answers your question. You need to start transitioning into hive when tooss secures his third. Its funny, as you beat such 3 baase pushes with 3+ colossi with broodlords. There are replays listed that sppecifically show how to transition to hive. Of course you lose to colossi. The only way to beat 3base suppported colossi is broodlords. Standard hive is like I said a couple posts up. Are people just unaware of my guide? | ||
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Kecos
United States22 Posts
ZvT, he does a 1rax expand and then blocks my ramp. I take a quick 3rd, but he attacks and just destroys me. Was I not supposed to tech up so much? I really need help with zvt -.- | ||
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Maxamix
Canada165 Posts
On June 09 2012 04:41 Kecos wrote: http://drop.sc/193952 ZvT, he does a 1rax expand and then blocks my ramp. I take a quick 3rd, but he attacks and just destroys me. Was I not supposed to tech up so much? I really need help with zvt -.- League you are in? it will help my analisys Expect said analisys to be dine in about 1h30, given i know what league you are in | ||
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