EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 276
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
 What to do if i go pool first 14 or 15, and protoss builds pylon at my natural and starts building 2 cannons near pylon, whats the best response? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 06 2012 04:24 Corsica wrote: ZvP question What to do if i go pool first 14 or 15, and protoss builds pylon at my natural and starts building 2 cannons near pylon, whats the best response? imo best response is to pull drones and get those cannons canceled/killed. If you let them finish then your expansion is going to be delayed a lot and you will have to make a ton of lings to kill it off while toss gets a nexus and will be far ahead of you. | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
On June 06 2012 04:29 blade55555 wrote: imo best response is to pull drones and get those cannons canceled/killed. If you let them finish then your expansion is going to be delayed a lot and you will have to make a ton of lings to kill it off while toss gets a nexus and will be far ahead of you. how many drones per 1 and per 2 cannons ? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
http://drop.sc/189090 Here's a picture perfect hold of me dealing with a cannon rush when going 14 pool. I am way ahead for this. I still lose the game stupidly in the end, maybe it's amusing how i throw it away, just retarded mistake on my end, but i basically had the game won after holding the cannon rush. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
Belial said it correctly 4 drones per cannon. | ||
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tediz
Iceland3 Posts
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
On June 06 2012 04:37 Belial88 wrote: its 4-5 drones per building. You should click on the buildings to identify which are cannons and which are pylons, you don't care about pylons, unless they are blocking in a warping cannon. http://drop.sc/189090 Here's a picture perfect hold of me dealing with a cannon rush when going 14 pool. I am way ahead for this. I still lose the game stupidly in the end, maybe it's amusing how i throw it away, just retarded mistake on my end, but i basically had the game won after holding the cannon rush. I'm sorry, but you're clearly behind after the cannon rush and don't pull ahead in drones until the 8min mark. It's 21 to 15 (and even pulls ahead 24 to 17!) in the protoss favor directly after the rush and he lost only 200 minerals in the process. I really don't know what you're talking about. | ||
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ncsix
1370 Posts
On June 06 2012 00:40 Mahtasooma wrote: I'm sorry, but I severely disagree. Replays show that even if he managed to walloff in time (which means he cannot have a nexus up, obviously) I will catch up with workers and even overtake him really fast, as I 18hatch 24hatch off of that. There's a huge difference between "having to build that structures anyway" and having to build them early on, because otherwise everyone would 6hatch 6pool 6hatch and so on. I spent 150 minerals on lings and delayed some probes, but he has to build at least three big structures and a cannon early on, which means upwards of 600 minerals WITHOUT having an expand up at the time I have. My point is I will damage him no matter what, either by having him build excess structures, or by getting into his main / delaying his expo even further, stressing his multitasking, which I'm quite good at and your usual P players suck at (obviously, playing with one hotkey armys and doing his build 12minutes into the game straight like a machine). In any case, it's no answer to my question, as I'm still looking for a refined pure eco follow up (into speedbanes, whatever) to a 9pool. Thats why a replay or two would be instructive. I understand your reasoning for going 9 pool to "damage him no matter what", but I think we'ld both agree its not an game ending strat. No offense intended but I think you probably overestimate the damage you do, and underestimate the economical setback you dish yourself with 9 pool. When he scouts your 9 pool, he's spending an additional gateway and additional pylon to block (i.e. 250 - 300 minerals), since he's going FFE, he's already committed to 1 pylon + forge + cannon, which is even cheaper than than your 9 pool (you have to build an ovie + pool + use a drone + use larvae for lings). So unless you sneaked in and actually killed >3 probes, you're behind in economy. Forget what buildings he makes, you can check his probe count to your drone count when your lings reach his natural. At this point if you 9 pool doesn't do any damage other than forcing the toss to build some buildings, you could concentrate on saturating the mineral line at nat and 3rd without gas until about 6 mins + , then get 3 at once and spend it first on lair and scout the enemy's plans. You're probably better off with roach rather than speedbanes, the speed and centrifugal hooks can be spent later, if you decide to go for s/bling/muta. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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HighLach
United States132 Posts
On June 06 2012 11:38 Tachion wrote: Is there any way to salvage a 10 pool speedling build when you overlord scout your opponent going 14/14? 10 pool speedling build really is designed to kill a player fast expanding, and if he 14/14, its what many people would call a build order loss. You are taking a risk and you will be behind. But as for salvaging it, you could just play it off like a FE vs. 14/14 (theoretically). The 14/14 (or in our case 10pool speedling) player will have a period of time in which he can abuse his speed. Try to pick off drones, just run past his zerglings if you can. You have the advantage of an early pool, and could build 2 queens to block the ramp. This is a good defensive bonus. I can't really think of any other advantages. I would suggest just playing 14/14 or FE, unless you are trying to meta game. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On June 06 2012 11:34 ncsix wrote: Thats why a replay or two would be instructive. I understand your reasoning for going 9 pool to "damage him no matter what", but I think we'ld both agree its not an game ending strat. No offense intended but I think you probably overestimate the damage you do, and underestimate the economical setback you dish yourself with 9 pool. When he scouts your 9 pool, he's spending an additional gateway and additional pylon to block (i.e. 250 - 300 minerals), since he's going FFE, he's already committed to 1 pylon + forge + cannon, which is even cheaper than than your 9 pool (you have to build an ovie + pool + use a drone + use larvae for lings). So unless you sneaked in and actually killed >3 probes, you're behind in economy. Forget what buildings he makes, you can check his probe count to your drone count when your lings reach his natural. At this point if you 9 pool doesn't do any damage other than forcing the toss to build some buildings, you could concentrate on saturating the mineral line at nat and 3rd without gas until about 6 mins + , then get 3 at once and spend it first on lair and scout the enemy's plans. You're probably better off with roach rather than speedbanes, the speed and centrifugal hooks can be spent later, if you decide to go for s/bling/muta. I pm'd him but he didn't really listen to what I had to say. He could just go into an official YABOT by xor (yet another build order tester) and realize just doing a 9 pool vs 14 pool puts you behind by 400+ minerals by the 7:00 mark and makes an econ game impossible, and that even if you killed 6 probes you'd be way behind (not only do you cut drones going 9 pool instead of 14 pool, you cut drones by making 6-10 lings instead of drones, and your third will not go down, so you are only limited to 2 base strats - which is why ~10 pool into 2 base muta is okay in ZvP, but thats about it) and test it, and figure it out. You really need to kill over 6 probes definitely, and I'm thinking you probably need to kill at least 10 probes, at the minimum, because he's actually going FFE econ build while you are stuck to 2 base econ (no way you can afford a third in reasonable time before an 8 minute gate timing pressure hits you, or stargate). It's more than just the behind you are going 9 pool instead of 14 pool, or the drones instead of lings, but also the fact you aren't expanding or macro'ing against a toss whos doing a macro build. It would be less behind if the toss was going gateway expand, but not against a FFE. Yes, there is a small price to building structures a little earlier than normal, but it's a difference of 1-3 probes. Meanwhile, you are behind more than 4-5 workers just because of your pool timing (and then an other 3-5 for making 6 lings, and another 3-5 for taking a late natural, and another 3-5 for taking a late third...and so early on that it snowballs throughout the game). There is no eco follow-up. It's more like 'catch-up'. Why don't you try it out yourself and learn what everyone else already knows - that 9-11 pool isn't a solid build order in ZvP. I'm not saying it's not viable - 11 pooling and really hurting nexus firs tplayers but not being as behind if you went 7 pool, or going 11 pool into 2 base muta, but I think 7 pool is more commonly used as an aggressive opener to punish nexus first. But there's a reason you don't see pros really do it. It's because it's bad. You can do whatever you want, have fun, you aren't a pro, obviously, but you are asking about a build that is unpopular. It's unpopular for a reason. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Is there any way to salvage a 10 pool speedling build when you overlord scout your opponent going 14/14? Don't go 10 pool speedling, it's a horrible build. Nestea did it once, and he's never done it again because DRG held it with only being slightly behind with his hatch first by giving up his main and rebuilding his pool. (Proof - his game against DRG on antiga, and then future games he 10 pools in, like on ohana in gsl s3 group a, he goes 10 pool 8 drone pull, and has never gone 10 pool speed since, he does his original 10 pool build, 10 pool 8 drone pull, that dimaga actually first did against nestea in that gsl series, and then nestea refined). Go 10 pool baneling, or 10 pool 8/12 drones pulled. If you don't go 10 pool bane or 8 drone pull (you can drone scout if you want, nestea drone scouts when he goes 10 pool just to confirm hatch first or not), the hatch first player stands a chance of coming back. If the opponent goes pool first, you need to get 2 queens, speed first (unless you made the baneling nest before you realized the opponent didn't go hatch first) then expand and spine, then baneling nest. You will be slightly behind. 10 pool is a cheese. You are hoping the opponent went hatch first so you can get a build order win. If he didn't, you are behind. You can still play out the game, but I'd recommend you avoid a macro game (go 2 base muta, roach/ling all-in...etc) because you are pretty far behind. I wouldn't say a build order loss, but against a good player at high levels, it's almost one, if you stick to a macro game. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls2/vod/67549 GSTL Set1 TSL Revival vs IM Losira. They both play the standard game, fast third. But they both go infestors as their first tech after taking their 3rd before lair, instead of hydras, and not only that, but they never even get hydras, either of them. What's going on with that game? Am I missing something? Maybe Revival went infestors instead of hydras because he felt he had a minor lead because losira made so many lings early on and revival droned and held them off, and then losira went infestors because he felt he was behind and had to be greedy? I dont even understand. | ||
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BlueKatz
68 Posts
I have problem vs such early push, especially the very early Sentry gateway units at like 7:45 (very rare) and Immortal sentry at 8:30 or so (very common nowadays) and on such tight map like Cloud Kingdom. | ||
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Otters
Singapore7 Posts
On June 01 2012 21:31 Otters wrote: Hi guys, just wanted to get some input on two extremely frustrating zvp games i played. they are both against the same player, and i felt that i lost both of them after establishing excellent economies. for reference, i am a gold player. I felt that i played rather well in both of them, but just couldnt close out the job. both games are 25min long macro games. http://drop.sc/189542 http://drop.sc/189541 hey, posted this a while back but it sadly got ignored ): would really love some feedback on these games! | ||
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theBOOCH
United States832 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
How do I hold very early push in ZvP (from FFE)? I mean at how many drones should I cut the production? How many gas should I have at that time? I have problem vs such early push, especially the very early Sentry gateway units at like 7:45 (very rare) and Immortal sentry at 8:30 or so (very common nowadays) and on such tight map like Cloud Kingdom. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 My ZvP guide answers all of these questions. Welcome to TL. And FFE will not have sentry pushes at 7:45 or immortal/sentry at 8:30... More like 10:30 push out and 11:30 hitting you immortal/sentry, and sentry based pushes in general would hit at like 9:00+... not sure what you are talking about with just sentry, that never happens. Replays would be helpful for you too. But i think my guide is all you need right now. On Antiga Shipyard, ZvT, if you spawn bottom left and Terran spawns bottom right or similar positions, Terran can siege your third from his base making it impossible to take a second gas geyser at that base and siege/drop combo super strong (fast drops are really strong in those positions anyway). So what do you do? Do you take that third and hope T doesnt know that he can siege you from there? Or do you take one of the harder to defend bases (the middle left base is the farthest from the Terran at least). Or do you just sack the 3rd gas and use spines to defend from drops (out of the range of the tanks)? I hadn't seen this before so I'm sort of scratching my head from this play. It really threw me off. You do what everyone else does - veto it. | ||
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JayPower
Netherlands171 Posts
On June 06 2012 16:56 theBOOCH wrote: On Antiga Shipyard, ZvT, if you spawn bottom left and Terran spawns bottom right or similar positions, Terran can siege your third from his base making it impossible to take a second gas geyser at that base and siege/drop combo super strong (fast drops are really strong in those positions anyway). So what do you do? Do you take that third and hope T doesnt know that he can siege you from there? Or do you take one of the harder to defend bases (the middle left base is the farthest from the Terran at least). Or do you just sack the 3rd gas and use spines to defend from drops (out of the range of the tanks)? I hadn't seen this before so I'm sort of scratching my head from this play. It really threw me off. Like suggested above, you can veto it. If you don't want to do that you can go for the base right above your main (The base that normally would be your 3rd if you spawned top left). This base is a lot safer against drop since your opponent has to go all the way around the top area to get a drop in near it. There's plenty of dead-space on the route of the dropship where you can position overlords. Also the terran will feel really uncomfortable pushing all the way cross-map through the watch-tower to reach your 3rd base and will more likely go for your natural. Make sure you start killing the rocks really early though, it makes it way easier to reach that base with your drones/army. | ||
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ncsix
1370 Posts
On June 06 2012 15:55 Otters wrote: hey, posted this a while back but it sadly got ignored ): would really love some feedback on these games! Hey Otter, Actually, I think you played really well, macro-wise, I think your judgement of your advantage is lacking and in general a few basic moves will really improve those games. 1) It cost nothing to send one ling to each mineral patch with your first few lings. Ok. In game 1, despite not doing this, you manage to clear protosses 3rd without much resistance. You had a few favorable encounters but you enjoy the macro game too much and need to press your advantage, especially after winning battles. 2) One encounter with the DTs really threw your large advantage out of the window. I think you probably knew there were DTs and thought it wouldn't matter and tried to ram your large force down his throat. Think you need to back up some time and realize its always a good thing to trade efficiently. This is for game 1 and 2. 3) Back to point 1, game 2. Having that ling or overlord at each mineral patch is a must. You had a great attack, even though he had 2 Colossi at his natural, but the point his each of his other expansions is giving him the gas to make more colossi, each sec you let him have it reduces your advantage. 4) Game 2, after you realize he had so many colossi, I think you lost your nerves, because you still had the economic advantage. You needed to regroup and be more defensive, instead you sent patches of corrupters and a few infestors to their doom. 5) I don't think i could have done better macro wise. Burrowed lings, creep overlords at minerals, Overseers to get rid of observers following your army around, the next simple steps to better play. I bet you if you did those, it would have been very different. | ||
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