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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On June 05 2012 02:51 Amaterasu1234 wrote:
Is there a general overview of how to play vs toss? I need one...because I do not understand the match up in the slightest. Immortal Colossi simply doesn't die no matter what and literally destroys anything on the ground no matter what I do.
Belials Comprehensive Guide to everything ZvP.
excellent read
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How do you deal with multiple medivacs going into mid/late game ZvT with a roach/ling/bling/infestor composition?
By multiple medivacs im talking about 7+ medivacs and engaging their siege/marine army with their medivacs... I feel as if the medivacs along with proper marine splitting neutralizes FG as well as my lings ability to do damage. I would think the banelings would help against this but I cant get all the marines snared and the siege fire kills alot of my banelings so that only a small amount of them connect...
So whats the best course of action in this event? Im at work so i cant post a replay at the moment.
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Ive been going gasless 15/14p vs Terran, macro hatch before 3rd, gas on 44 supply. first 100 gas Ling speed then +1/+1, lair. I try to delay blings for as long as i can, but find myself occasionally dieing to microed Marine/Rauder due to lack of blings. Is there a solid timing for "safety" blings? I really enjoy the double evo festor ling into broodlord, just wondering how to better prepare defending my 3rd and etc.
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On June 05 2012 02:58 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 02:33 Moosegills wrote:On June 05 2012 02:25 HyperionDreamer wrote:On June 05 2012 00:40 Mahtasooma wrote:
How can I tell a onerax expand form a 2rax with rax + offrax with a dronescout? In addition, if he's going 2 rax he won't have the minerals to immediately drop down his second supply depot, where if he's going 1 rax cc then he'll be making the supply depot around 15-16 food, which will often block your drone inside his base. This is just another identifier that points to 1 rax cc, but it's definitely not a "hard identifier", so don't come back and say "omg the guy made a depot on 15 and i still died to a 2rax". This actually isn't true because the most common type of 1 rax cc is where you make the cc before 2nd depot so the building of the 2nd depot or not isn't a tell at all anymore. Really? I've not seen that even once (making cc before second depot) in high master NA. Weird.... If you make that CC first, wouldn't you have to cut a worker to make another marine/scv without getting supply blocked?
But you have the cc earlier. the standard from any high level korean terran would be
12 rax
16 marine
17 OC (17 oc is the delayed version without cutting 5 seconds off worker build time)
17 CC
17 Gas. Gas
17 Supply Depot
17 Scv
18 Marine
You get your expo and your tech down pretty fast and thats what you want.
edit: And i am not saying you wont see the other version too in GSL or ESV Weekly or sth. but this is the most common.
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Sup
I haven't played in a couple month, I'm playing in plat league EU and in diamond league US. I only use one BO... I would like some diversity... idk if the metagame changed a lot or if there is other cool bo out there.
9 ovi
14 gas
14 pool
then slings/bling
infestor or muta
thx
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On June 05 2012 04:14 EL33T_COL wrote:
Sup
I haven't played in a couple month, I'm playing in plat league EU and in diamond league US. I only use one BO... I would like some diversity... idk if the metagame changed a lot or if there is other cool bo out there.
9 ovi
14 gas
14 pool
then slings/bling
infestor or muta
thx
The Standard Builds (not really new) in each matchup:
ZvT:
14-16 Hatch
15-17 Pool
and then either 4queen no gas or fast speed with about a 17 gas
from there you could go a 3rd with roach support or 2base lair
ZvP( if the opponent goes standard forge fast expand)
14-15 Pool
15-16 Hatch
2-4 Lings
2 Queens
3rd Base (around 4min)
6min 2 gas
7min roach warren, evo chamber
lair, ling speed, +1 roach attack
roach speed
etc.
ZvZ:
You can go your build with 14-14 or a hatch first similar to ZvT
Just some common ideas
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On June 05 2012 04:13 Broesl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 02:58 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 02:33 Moosegills wrote:On June 05 2012 02:25 HyperionDreamer wrote:On June 05 2012 00:40 Mahtasooma wrote:
How can I tell a onerax expand form a 2rax with rax + offrax with a dronescout? In addition, if he's going 2 rax he won't have the minerals to immediately drop down his second supply depot, where if he's going 1 rax cc then he'll be making the supply depot around 15-16 food, which will often block your drone inside his base. This is just another identifier that points to 1 rax cc, but it's definitely not a "hard identifier", so don't come back and say "omg the guy made a depot on 15 and i still died to a 2rax". This actually isn't true because the most common type of 1 rax cc is where you make the cc before 2nd depot so the building of the 2nd depot or not isn't a tell at all anymore. Really? I've not seen that even once (making cc before second depot) in high master NA. Weird.... If you make that CC first, wouldn't you have to cut a worker to make another marine/scv without getting supply blocked? But you have the cc earlier. the standard from any high level korean terran would be 12 rax 16 marine 17 OC (17 oc is the delayed version without cutting 5 seconds off worker build time) 17 CC 17 Gas. Gas 17 Supply Depot 17 Scv 18 Marine You get your expo and your tech down pretty fast and thats what you want. edit: And i am not saying you wont see the other version too in GSL or ESV Weekly or sth. but this is the most common.
Interesting. Do you know of any specific examples of Terrans opening this way? (Replays, GSL matches, etc) I'm just asking cause all my ZvT's in high master people open with depot before cc, which has always been a good way for me to read 1 rax cc. I suppose I might have to switch to counting scv's, which isn't that hard anyway so I suppose it's no big deal.
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Can anyone tell me how your supposed to play against mass blue flame hellion with tanks and thors. Heres a replay of a recent loss. http://drop.sc/191493. I'm in platinum so feel free to give me any tips you can. I know one bad thing is i researched melee upgrades instead of ranged. I was in autopilot bc i usually go ling, infestor, ultra.
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On June 05 2012 04:38 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 04:13 Broesl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 02:58 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 02:33 Moosegills wrote:On June 05 2012 02:25 HyperionDreamer wrote:On June 05 2012 00:40 Mahtasooma wrote:
How can I tell a onerax expand form a 2rax with rax + offrax with a dronescout? In addition, if he's going 2 rax he won't have the minerals to immediately drop down his second supply depot, where if he's going 1 rax cc then he'll be making the supply depot around 15-16 food, which will often block your drone inside his base. This is just another identifier that points to 1 rax cc, but it's definitely not a "hard identifier", so don't come back and say "omg the guy made a depot on 15 and i still died to a 2rax". This actually isn't true because the most common type of 1 rax cc is where you make the cc before 2nd depot so the building of the 2nd depot or not isn't a tell at all anymore. Really? I've not seen that even once (making cc before second depot) in high master NA. Weird.... If you make that CC first, wouldn't you have to cut a worker to make another marine/scv without getting supply blocked? But you have the cc earlier. the standard from any high level korean terran would be 12 rax 16 marine 17 OC (17 oc is the delayed version without cutting 5 seconds off worker build time) 17 CC 17 Gas. Gas 17 Supply Depot 17 Scv 18 Marine You get your expo and your tech down pretty fast and thats what you want. edit: And i am not saying you wont see the other version too in GSL or ESV Weekly or sth. but this is the most common. Interesting. Do you know of any specific examples of Terrans opening this way? (Replays, GSL matches, etc) I'm just asking cause all my ZvT's in high master people open with depot before cc, which has always been a good way for me to read 1 rax cc. I suppose I might have to switch to counting scv's, which isn't that hard anyway so I suppose it's no big deal.
I dont even have to search for a game actually, the last gsl(actually gstl) game ZvT wise was exactly CC-Gas-Gas-Depot, Alive vs. Symbol in game 8 of TSL against Fnatic.
edit: the only reason to go depot before cc is to delay the cc to have a marine out that can deny scouting before the cc goes down, but that should actually solve your problem, cause if he plants on the lowground and doesnt delay on purpose you can look for it with a drone scout before the marine can kill you, the marine is done just as the cc should start, ergo cant be in front of the cc to deny you yet.
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On June 05 2012 07:12 iclimbnaked wrote:Can anyone tell me how your supposed to play against mass blue flame hellion with tanks and thors. Heres a replay of a recent loss. http://drop.sc/191493. I'm in platinum so feel free to give me any tips you can. I know one bad thing is i researched melee upgrades instead of ranged. I was in autopilot bc i usually go ling, infestor, ultra.
It was pretty clear that you were out of your element with the replay, but there were a few trends that concerned me. For starters, you were trying to build units, tech, and build economy simultaneously. As a result you had 39 drones when your opponent had 40 scv's. You were also supply blocked longer than 30 seconds at 36 (made 3 ovies) and 60 (made a bunch more).
Your scouting told you exactly what you needed to know. You saw two gas taken simultaenously (no gas indicated 1 rax expo since you weren't 2-raxed.....1 rax expo also means you get a free third), When you sac'd the ovie at 8:30 you didn't see the second factory, but you saw the first factory with a reactor. This is fishy and should have prompted zergling pokes. With them you would have seen a ton of hellions and knew you were against mech. Although mech is easily scouted when your ovie sees 2 factories they can't hide their composition very long. Finally, you could have morphed an overseer at the terran natural and scouted the hellion count before the blundered attack at the third.
Once scouted you can play mech in a style not that different from ZvP. Build up a strong 3 base economy and either attack with roaches or build enough roaches to ward off hellions and tech/upgrade.You can make a ton of roaches to try and deny a third/kill them, but siege tanks and wall-off counter roaches very well. Many players like to go roach drops. It's a good harassment option, but you need to make sure you trade efficiently. 30 dropped roaches can kill some out of position units and buildings (workers if you're lucky), but once the terran ball approaches your cost-effectiveness dwindles. Finally, you could take a quick fourth (and fifth, if you can), make a huge spine wall, and go for broodlord/infestor/corruptor. This is the desired late-game composition no matter which path you take.
Mech takes a lot of time, so don't feel pressured to do a ton of damage. Most mech players will get a great 3 base economy before they go for game-ending attacks. It's main strength relies on brute force, so if you have mass roach when they finally attack at, say, 18 minutes, you will probably die. It's like roaches fighting blink stalkers/colossus/immortal, only worse because they deal more damage and have a ton of health. The plus-side is that once a bunch of mech units are destroyed you can remax on high-tech units a TON faster. The game will gradually build to the one or two pivotal high tech battles before it's over.
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In the current metagame, what's the followup to a eco 9pool vs FFE toss?
Because I noticed I'm not really behind even if he manages to wall off, because he has to invest a LOT into that wall preventing the production of probes.
Obviously I want to go for a quick third, but I can't seem to hit over 62 supply at the 8min mark (about 70 like 15secs later, though).
Anyone has a solid build order for that? I found aXa's 9pool, but that's off of two base and coming from a 1base protoss.
By the way I'm talking about a like 12minute build order.
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On June 04 2012 23:59 ChaosArcher wrote:Pls tell me how to defend this ? :O This is a serious question, i scouted them pretty early and still had no chance http://drop.sc/191391
Pls can someone help me? Im a gold league player and i just can't defend off gates.
Any help?
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On June 05 2012 07:21 Broesl wrote:
I dont even have to search for a game actually, the last gsl(actually gstl) game ZvT wise was exactly CC-Gas-Gas-Depot, Alive vs. Symbol in game 8 of TSL against Fnatic.
edit: the only reason to go depot before cc is to delay the cc to have a marine out that can deny scouting before the cc goes down, but that should actually solve your problem, cause if he plants on the lowground and doesnt delay on purpose you can look for it with a drone scout before the marine can kill you, the marine is done just as the cc should start, ergo cant be in front of the cc to deny you yet.
Ah, unfortunately I don't have a season pass for GSTL, only the individual leagues. I believe you though, I just don't think it's near as good to throw down the CC first for the sake of hiding information. The drone is going to flat out see the CC and as the zerg, I'm going immediately make a third hatch, and on bad maps I might just make it a macro hatch but with the queen buff these days there's pretty much no reason to do that since queens are so good against hellions.
Whereas if you go depot-rax-depot-cc (and put the cc on the high ground so the floating distance is minimal to the expansion), I'm going to be super hesitant to make a third hatch immediately and probably make a spine near starting my queens to protect myself from any 2-3 rax that happens to be hidden.
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On June 05 2012 22:14 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:21 Broesl wrote:
I dont even have to search for a game actually, the last gsl(actually gstl) game ZvT wise was exactly CC-Gas-Gas-Depot, Alive vs. Symbol in game 8 of TSL against Fnatic.
edit: the only reason to go depot before cc is to delay the cc to have a marine out that can deny scouting before the cc goes down, but that should actually solve your problem, cause if he plants on the lowground and doesnt delay on purpose you can look for it with a drone scout before the marine can kill you, the marine is done just as the cc should start, ergo cant be in front of the cc to deny you yet.
Ah, unfortunately I don't have a season pass for GSTL, only the individual leagues. I believe you though, I just don't think it's near as good to throw down the CC first for the sake of hiding information. The drone is going to flat out see the CC and as the zerg, I'm going immediately make a third hatch, and on bad maps I might just make it a macro hatch but with the queen buff these days there's pretty much no reason to do that since queens are so good against hellions. Whereas if you go depot-rax-depot-cc (and put the cc on the high ground so the floating distance is minimal to the expansion), I'm going to be super hesitant to make a third hatch immediately and probably make a spine near starting my queens to protect myself from any 2-3 rax that happens to be hidden.
Good Players dont need to hide an expansion, mkp never delays his cc even for a second, he straight up shows it every time, and a 3rd inbase cc is almost standard anyways, its not like you are so far ahead just because you can go for a third when you see his cc, nothing new actually.
And i dont know why you would be so afraid these days of a 2rax, with the queen buff and the size of maps, its getting worse and worse. AND you can often put an overlord somewhere behind the main to spot gas, that is taken immediately after the cc.
Btw if you go 2nd depot its not that you go cc on highground to deny the scout, you can still plant it down right at the expansion, but the marine is already out, because the cc is slightly delayed, and can deny your drone from seeing it if you micro.
And pls dont argue too much against what korean Terrans are doing if you dont even play the race, its kind of ridiculous to doubt their play as a master zerg on na.
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On June 05 2012 09:47 Mahtasooma wrote:
In the current metagame, what's the followup to a eco 9pool vs FFE toss?
Because I noticed I'm not really behind even if he manages to wall off, because he has to invest a LOT into that wall preventing the production of probes.
Obviously I want to go for a quick third, but I can't seem to hit over 62 supply at the 8min mark (about 70 like 15secs later, though).
Anyone has a solid build order for that? I found aXa's 9pool, but that's off of two base and coming from a 1base protoss.
By the way I'm talking about a like 12minute build order.
if you 9 pooled, unless you've done some serious economic damage and /or halted this natural, you are still behind even if you're "not really" behind, he has 2 base probe production + buildings that he would have built anyway.
I don't think there's really a good transition build from 9 pool. If he's spent too much $$ defending his front, a possible follow up would be to rush Nydus / lings, you should all-in if you can and early because expanding means you're only trying to catch up with his economic game by 8 mins.
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On June 05 2012 03:55 sagefreke wrote:
How do you deal with multiple medivacs going into mid/late game ZvT with a roach/ling/bling/infestor composition?
By multiple medivacs im talking about 7+ medivacs and engaging their siege/marine army with their medivacs... I feel as if the medivacs along with proper marine splitting neutralizes FG as well as my lings ability to do damage. I would think the banelings would help against this but I cant get all the marines snared and the siege fire kills alot of my banelings so that only a small amount of them connect...
So whats the best course of action in this event? Im at work so i cant post a replay at the moment.
hey sagefreke,
7+ medivacs would almost be late-game. i.e. its rare for a Terran to wait for 7 medivacs + tanks before his first push.
MMM + tanks with good Marine splits + siege tanks focus fire on banelings is the perfect terran combo for dealing with bling infestor, especially if you don't have creep spread and a great surround waiting to swamp his army. Meantime, it would be have been possible to kill medivac drop attempts and/or 2-3 medivacs with bling/infestor skirmishes.
why roaches? unless its an early roach attack that catches hellions off guard or a greedy terran, they're pretty pointless in the match up. even hydras would be slightly better (but not much) since they can shoot air.
you need to have great creep spread and a lot of side attacks (e.g. muta harrass, ling run-bys, sneaky infestor play, baneling mine ambushes) and delay his mass push till you have broodlords + infestors, otherwise, you need to catch him unsieged with plenty of ling/bane and even Ultras, with ultras maybe you can try neural parasiting a medivac or two, but i've never seen any gosus do it.
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On June 05 2012 22:32 Broesl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 22:14 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:21 Broesl wrote:
I dont even have to search for a game actually, the last gsl(actually gstl) game ZvT wise was exactly CC-Gas-Gas-Depot, Alive vs. Symbol in game 8 of TSL against Fnatic.
edit: the only reason to go depot before cc is to delay the cc to have a marine out that can deny scouting before the cc goes down, but that should actually solve your problem, cause if he plants on the lowground and doesnt delay on purpose you can look for it with a drone scout before the marine can kill you, the marine is done just as the cc should start, ergo cant be in front of the cc to deny you yet.
Ah, unfortunately I don't have a season pass for GSTL, only the individual leagues. I believe you though, I just don't think it's near as good to throw down the CC first for the sake of hiding information. The drone is going to flat out see the CC and as the zerg, I'm going immediately make a third hatch, and on bad maps I might just make it a macro hatch but with the queen buff these days there's pretty much no reason to do that since queens are so good against hellions. Whereas if you go depot-rax-depot-cc (and put the cc on the high ground so the floating distance is minimal to the expansion), I'm going to be super hesitant to make a third hatch immediately and probably make a spine near starting my queens to protect myself from any 2-3 rax that happens to be hidden. Good Players dont need to hide an expansion, mkp never delays his cc even for a second, he straight up shows it every time, and a 3rd inbase cc is almost standard anyways, its not like you are so far ahead just because you can go for a third when you see his cc, nothing new actually. And i dont know why you would be so afraid these days of a 2rax, with the queen buff and the size of maps, its getting worse and worse. AND you can often put an overlord somewhere behind the main to spot gas, that is taken immediately after the cc. Btw if you go 2nd depot its not that you go cc on highground to deny the scout, you can still plant it down right at the expansion, but the marine is already out, because the cc is slightly delayed, and can deny your drone from seeing it if you micro. And pls dont argue too much against what korean Terrans are doing if you dont even play the race, its kind of ridiculous to doubt their play as a master zerg on na.
Sure they don't need to hide the expansion, but if you can keep someone in the dark about your play it gives you an extra advantage with pretty much no loss (like if you build the cc on the low ground then it's not like you can mine from it to begin with, and the only thing that you're losing by building it on the high ground is the 5 seconds that it takes for the cc to float down and land). 2 rax is still deadly on certain maps if the person is good at doing it, like antiga where they can use the ramp and the bunker to block in the marine(s) while the scv is building, plus entombed where the marine is completely is blocked in. It still requires a specific response, so that's why I'm constantly bringing it into the conversation.
I don't know, I see top KR terrans do both versions (cc on lowground immediately after rax, and depot first cc on the high ground). From the zerg perspective, I'm much more in the dark and thus have to play much safer than if I see a cc on the lowground, so if you're reading this as a terran, do that one instead haha! 
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On June 05 2012 23:38 ncsix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 09:47 Mahtasooma wrote:
In the current metagame, what's the followup to a eco 9pool vs FFE toss?
Because I noticed I'm not really behind even if he manages to wall off, because he has to invest a LOT into that wall preventing the production of probes.
Obviously I want to go for a quick third, but I can't seem to hit over 62 supply at the 8min mark (about 70 like 15secs later, though).
Anyone has a solid build order for that? I found aXa's 9pool, but that's off of two base and coming from a 1base protoss.
By the way I'm talking about a like 12minute build order. if you 9 pooled, unless you've done some serious economic damage and /or halted this natural, you are still behind even if you're "not really" behind, he has 2 base probe production + buildings that he would have built anyway. I don't think there's really a good transition build from 9 pool. If he's spent too much $$ defending his front, a possible follow up would be to rush Nydus / lings, you should all-in if you can and early because expanding means you're only trying to catch up with his economic game by 8 mins.
I'm sorry, but I severely disagree. Replays show that even if he managed to walloff in time (which means he cannot have a nexus up, obviously) I will catch up with workers and even overtake him really fast, as I 18hatch 24hatch off of that.
There's a huge difference between "having to build that structures anyway" and having to build them early on, because otherwise everyone would 6hatch 6pool 6hatch and so on. I spent 150 minerals on lings and delayed some probes, but he has to build at least three big structures and a cannon early on, which means upwards of 600 minerals WITHOUT having an expand up at the time I have.
My point is I will damage him no matter what, either by having him build excess structures, or by getting into his main / delaying his expo even further, stressing his multitasking, which I'm quite good at and your usual P players suck at (obviously, playing with one hotkey armys and doing his build 12minutes into the game straight like a machine).
In any case, it's no answer to my question, as I'm still looking for a refined pure eco follow up (into speedbanes, whatever) to a 9pool.
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On June 05 2012 23:53 ncsix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 03:55 sagefreke wrote:
How do you deal with multiple medivacs going into mid/late game ZvT with a roach/ling/bling/infestor composition?
By multiple medivacs im talking about 7+ medivacs and engaging their siege/marine army with their medivacs... I feel as if the medivacs along with proper marine splitting neutralizes FG as well as my lings ability to do damage. I would think the banelings would help against this but I cant get all the marines snared and the siege fire kills alot of my banelings so that only a small amount of them connect...
So whats the best course of action in this event? Im at work so i cant post a replay at the moment. hey sagefreke, 7+ medivacs would almost be late-game. i.e. its rare for a Terran to wait for 7 medivacs + tanks before his first push. MMM + tanks with good Marine splits + siege tanks focus fire on banelings is the perfect terran combo for dealing with bling infestor, especially if you don't have creep spread and a great surround waiting to swamp his army. Meantime, it would be have been possible to kill medivac drop attempts and/or 2-3 medivacs with bling/infestor skirmishes. why roaches? unless its an early roach attack that catches hellions off guard or a greedy terran, they're pretty pointless in the match up. even hydras would be slightly better (but not much) since they can shoot air. you need to have great creep spread and a lot of side attacks (e.g. muta harrass, ling run-bys, sneaky infestor play, baneling mine ambushes) and delay his mass push till you have broodlords + infestors, otherwise, you need to catch him unsieged with plenty of ling/bane and even Ultras, with ultras maybe you can try neural parasiting a medivac or two, but i've never seen any gosus do it.
It doesnt have to be lategame, any kind of 3cc build into fast tanks for safety is gonna sit back until 2-1 or 2-2 upgrades and alomst maxed supply. And by then he can have plenty medivacs, the push will also be before hive, so no way you can get broodlord infestor out by then. If u try to rush hive earlier, the terran will usually scan that so you have to just engage properly from different angles like you mentioned, watch some Stephano replays vT for that, best examples would be on antiga, cause there you almost always have 3base v. 3base situation with the terran pushing out right before he is maxed trying to deny 4th bases and get the middle, and Stephano knows exactly how to engage in ZvT.
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On June 05 2012 04:14 EL33T_COL wrote:
Sup
I haven't played in a couple month, I'm playing in plat league EU and in diamond league US. I only use one BO... I would like some diversity... idk if the metagame changed a lot or if there is other cool bo out there.
9 ovi
14 gas
14 pool
then slings/bling
infestor or muta
thx
Work on some 2Q builds in ZvZ/ZvTI use this one a lot.
9-Overlord
15-Hatch
16-Pool/Gas
16-Overlord
Then 2 Q's as Pool Finishes
20-Six Zerglings
24-Roach Warren
26-Baneling Nest
If you see your opponent rushing, or if its a two player map use a spine crawler at the natural before the warren.
For ZvP use a 3 Hatch Before Gas. Standard ones can be found in Liquipedia.
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EPT
