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I knew he was going ling/infestor as soon as I saw he was going 2 base lair, yet wasn't going mutas (i think I may have even saw the infestation pit). I knew pretty quickly what he was doing. I denied his third for quite a long time, but I know that you DONT attack someone with ling/infestor (likewise, you DONT attack ling/muta), as they will have just a ton of lings, if not infestors/mutas coming soon. It's a mistake you see a lot of people make against muta/infestor play, they attack and lose a chunk of army that, if they had kept it, would have been part of a much larger force.
I've watched the rep a few times (i think in the stream you even see me go over the game). One of the mistakes I made was actually moving forward, ready to attack, but I just sat there for like a full minute before attacking. In the rep I analyzed, I watched and saw he had only ling/infestor, with ultras on the way. I think if I had pushed right then and there, I would have done damage, but instead I waited too long (and he knew I was attacking, I just sat there on his creep for like a full minute) and the ultras popped (and I think I got decimated there).
Another mistake I made was 20 extra drones over 70. This is a mistake I tend to make in ZvZ - I treat it like ZvP (or even ZvT in certain situations when delaying for hive). This wasn't a mistake that I made on my own per se - i did it intentionally - you often go 20-30 extra drones in ZvP so you can briefly mine with ~100 drones, and then you throw down 30 spines. But the problem I made in this game (and I've done this before in ZvZ) is it's a critical timing right where you are maxing out (or rather, most people are maxing out with roaches) and you die because it's like 10-20 roaches you aren't making, and it's a timing where your ~20 spines aren't thrown down, and so you either die, or your aggression is weak. In this game, my aggression was weak because of this.
It was a bad decision on my part to make 20 drones so I could mass spines and be really defensive while teching/macro'ing, yet want to try to attack. I was being schizo there - I wanted to be aggressive, but I wanted to make 20 more drones up to 100 so I could be really macro, and then plant 20 spines so I could be defensive. One or the other, next time. No more 100 drone to mass spines 70 drones anymore in ZvZ, unless AFTER I get my broodlords out.
Personally, since I'm aggressive as hell lately in all match ups, I would have clicked on a ling, seen 1/1, made a round of drones for my third (maybe like 8), then switched to mass unit production. Roaches lings and banes. He cannot defend that before his infestors are out, and you would have killed his third, or at least forced a cancel. Then you can get infestors of your own and attack again, or fast tech to Hive.
yea, i know. There may even be a game in that stream set where that happens. So I understand there is a timing where you deny the third for a long time. I even did that in this game. But EVENTUALLY, the infestor player will get infestors out, and have a tech/army advantage with ling/infestor (in a defensive posture at least), and you cannot deny the third.
So we're sort of saying 2 things here, that are completely opposite:
1. Just mass roaches, and kill him, when his initial infestors pop. This means don't get more drones than 60, but okay.
2. You get 70 drones, but he has a third and spine/infestor/ling. Use drops, nydus, mass army. Okay.
3. Do the same thing as him - but you can't do this if you mass roach/ling/bane and try to kill him. And it's hard to try to beat his infestor count.
There's just this problem like, okay, so eventually he gets ling/infestor and there is no way to deny his third. And he's going to get his hive, and maybe even defend you if you do roach drops or whatever. So what in the hell are you supposed to against an army of ultra/ling/infestor? Broods are much too slow - on this map, yea, shakuras, it would be great to go for broods, and maybe I should have gotten hive quicker. But on many maps, like cloud kingdom or ohana, broods would get ripped by his mobility.
hi, as a random player my worst match-up is ZvP because all the ZvP games I see are usually ffe, but playing random the protoss always gate opens (almost always). Virtually every guide out there seems to be geared towards dealing with ffe protoss.
Check out Belial's ZvP guide (google, or you know, look it up here). There's replays and guides on how to hold that.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038
It's not just geared towards FFE, it talks about EVERYTHING ZvP, although when I first created it, it was just against ffe by going fast third, but I've completely overhauled the guide, and I talk in-depth about gateway openers.
Here's also a very recent game where someone went gateway against me, and I crush him with a huge economy, that I materialized in mutas (mutas are great in realizing leads against someone turtling and mass roach won't work).
http://drop.sc/190460
I'm a Bronze league Zerg player, and can't seem to sustain a record of wins; it tends to be something along the lines of win, win, loss, loss, loss, win, win, win. etc. This last game, which I have uploaded below, is one that I won against a Terran opponent; but I would like to ask for help on analysis of the match. What did I do right and wrong? How were my mechanics (was I hitting my injects enough. etc)? When should I have moved out with my army? Timings are definitely something I need to work on; both mine and the enemies, and I'd just like a more experienced eye to be able to give me some feedback on what I'm doing.
Thanks for reading!
Analysis of games you win aren't really helpful. It doesn't really bring out the flaws in your decision making because the game isn't as taxing on you. Don't mean to be mean, but you can watch it yourself (i watch every game I play, win or lose, you should too - just about every high level player watches at least all their losses, and if they don't, they know they should but are just still raging, which you need to learn to get over, which helps if you gg for some weird reason).
And you should be losing 50% of your games, due to how ladder works, no matter your ranking. No one should really be on a win streak, or it's only because their MMR isn't stabilized yet, like in the case of a bronze, you just haven't played enough. Watch the game yourself, see when you were safe and when you weren't. It's not hard to analyze your own games.
If you have a game you lost in, we can analyze it if you give us a rough outline of what happened, when you think you lost, and what confused you though.
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Hello dear Zerg friends! I'm reasonably confident in ZvT and ZvP right now, but ZvZ is just killing me. Maybe you can help! It's the early game I'm struggling with: once my opponent and I both have three bases I do a lot better.
A helpful fellow on ladder taught me a speedling expand opening, with defensive banelings, that he assured me was as safe and standard as you could get. I've spent a while now practicing that build, but I really don't think I'm getting anywhere: all of my games seem to go like this, this, or this.
I hate how easy it is to screw up a baneling fight, so now I'm trying to find and learn a ZvZ opening that doesn't involve banelings. I saw a few posts in this forum suggesting hatch first so I tried that, but it also went badly.
What I've been working on lately is a roach expand opening where I make a roach warren and 6 roaches and then take my natural. It works well against baneling players, but poorly against opponents who open with a lot of speedlings or a fast expansion: replay, replay, replay. I know the roach opening puts me behind economically, so I'm trying to drone up quickly in order to catch up. A lot of my opponents are doing two base roach all-ins or two-base infestor plays which I guess are strong against that.
I hope I didn't include too many replays. They're all ZvZ so they're short  . Thanks in advance for any help!
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^ you really need banelings if you want to stay even in the econ game. If you are below masters, you can get by with blade5555's hatch first roach opening (just search for it). But at masters+, making roaches anytime before 50 supply is just economic suicide.
Just make your 2 queens, get banelings, and a single spine, and be defensive. Don't let your banes blow up on things they shouldn't - make your 14/14/21 build order, get a baneling nest after hatch (obviously respond if the opponent doesnt expand either). When the opponent does aggression, just move command your banes back and forth with a shift+right click series of movements queued together so they don't blow up on things they shouldn't. Morph your 4 banes when the bane nest pops, then spread them out in your natural so you don't just lose them all to a single ling sacrifice or an enemy baneling. Keep your lings a little bit back.
And that's all you really need to do.
If your opponent is doing a roach/ling all-in, it will be obvious. Your overlord should be at his natural, then moved behind the mineral line when his base there finishes. if it doesnt have nearly as many drones as you, worry about the roach/ling all-in, and defend it by getting a few spines, banes, and lings, or some roaches of your own, after 40-50 supply.
2 base infestor is not really seen at high level play, because it's a horrible build that's exploited by good macro. If you see someone doing that, just drone hard and either mass roaches and kill him, or get your own, later infestation pit, and do the same thing but with more economy.
By the way, you should always take your third at about ~40-50 supply in ZvZ, except if the opponent is going roach/ling all-in, which you need to identify for first. Just take it with 4 banes at your natural, and 4 banes nest to the third, with a pack of lings around. You shouldn't make a lair in zvz until about 50-60 supply, after you take your third. Make roaches if the opponent doesnt take his third, or AA if he's going 4 gas muta.
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Hey guys, Top diamond zerg player here. I just played a zvz and this guy just outplayed me. I tried to analyze the replay twice but to no avail I didn't learn my mistakes. I really need help on this match up. My opponent is a mid masters player. I really thought I was winning but i just dont know how i lost.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?m1l5x3ogvlvwuct
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On June 03 2012 13:26 Belial88 wrote:
yea, i know. There may even be a game in that stream set where that happens. So I understand there is a timing where you deny the third for a long time. I even did that in this game. But EVENTUALLY, the infestor player will get infestors out, and have a tech/army advantage with ling/infestor (in a defensive posture at least), and you cannot deny the third.
So we're sort of saying 2 things here, that are completely opposite:
1. Just mass roaches, and kill him, when his initial infestors pop. This means don't get more drones than 60, but okay.
2. You get 70 drones, but he has a third and spine/infestor/ling. Use drops, nydus, mass army. Okay.
3. Do the same thing as him - but you can't do this if you mass roach/ling/bane and try to kill him. And it's hard to try to beat his infestor count.
There's just this problem like, okay, so eventually he gets ling/infestor and there is no way to deny his third. And he's going to get his hive, and maybe even defend you if you do roach drops or whatever. So what in the hell are you supposed to against an army of ultra/ling/infestor? Broods are much too slow - on this map, yea, shakuras, it would be great to go for broods, and maybe I should have gotten hive quicker. But on many maps, like cloud kingdom or ohana, broods would get ripped by his mobility.
I saw on Stephano's stream, he went Ling/Infestor/Ultra against violet, and violet tore him apart with roach/hydra/infestor with 3/3 ups. He was attacking pretty much the entire game, outexpanded stephano, and dodged fungals and kited ultras like a boss. If you watch Stephanos latest stream session, the game is there somewhere.
I think that's pretty much your best bet... you're right with broods not working on certain maps.
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On June 03 2012 17:00 i3ubbles wrote:Hey guys, Top diamond zerg player here. I just played a zvz and this guy just outplayed me. I tried to analyze the replay twice but to no avail I didn't learn my mistakes. I really need help on this match up. My opponent is a mid masters player. I really thought I was winning but i just dont know how i lost. Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?m1l5x3ogvlvwuct
Alright, so you lagged behind in dronecount for a long time by about 10, not game ending, but definitely something you might want to look at. Not overmaking units when spooked and stuff.
The game was pretty even nonetheless. Your opponent put on constant pressure with his banked energy infestors on your third where he was pretty good to trade. At one time your opponent ran in and sniped all your queens, which hampered your spawn larvae cycles by a lot, but luckily for you he just neglected to inject as well.
The moment that really tipped the game was when he got into position inside your natural while your army was running to solve it. The infestors delayed you enough that his roaches could run amok, sniping a hatchery and doing major damage in your main. This is the way that broodlord armies or broodlord-tech switches lose, by counter attacks. This delayed you a TON.
If you want to go for a broodlord based style, you need to keep your army in a defensive position and morph them in a place where they can't easily get sniped. Your army will beat his upfront, but his will be a lot more mobile. After he delayed your broodlord push, he was able to get out the perfect counter and just beat you.
Broodlord switches are hard to pull off because they require about as much gas as a lategame carrier switch would. Which means that if bases get sniped out, your army is all that you have left since you can't easily devout resources to more hatcheries if you are pumping broodlords for a large push. I dislike Broodlords in ZvZ because they aren't really mobile and corruptors are just so damn good against them reactively. I would suggest trying a more harass or infested terran based lategame strategy personally, but that's just my preference.
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On June 03 2012 18:48 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 17:00 i3ubbles wrote:Hey guys, Top diamond zerg player here. I just played a zvz and this guy just outplayed me. I tried to analyze the replay twice but to no avail I didn't learn my mistakes. I really need help on this match up. My opponent is a mid masters player. I really thought I was winning but i just dont know how i lost. Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?m1l5x3ogvlvwuct Alright, so you lagged behind in dronecount for a long time by about 10, not game ending, but definitely something you might want to look at. Not overmaking units when spooked and stuff. The game was pretty even nonetheless. Your opponent put on constant pressure with his banked energy infestors on your third where he was pretty good to trade. At one time your opponent ran in and sniped all your queens, which hampered your spawn larvae cycles by a lot, but luckily for you he just neglected to inject as well. The moment that really tipped the game was when he got into position inside your natural while your army was running to solve it. The infestors delayed you enough that his roaches could run amok, sniping a hatchery and doing major damage in your main. This is the way that broodlord armies or broodlord-tech switches lose, by counter attacks. This delayed you a TON. If you want to go for a broodlord based style, you need to keep your army in a defensive position and morph them in a place where they can't easily get sniped. Your army will beat his upfront, but his will be a lot more mobile. After he delayed your broodlord push, he was able to get out the perfect counter and just beat you. Broodlord switches are hard to pull off because they require about as much gas as a lategame carrier switch would. Which means that if bases get sniped out, your army is all that you have left since you can't easily devout resources to more hatcheries if you are pumping broodlords for a large push. I dislike Broodlords in ZvZ because they aren't really mobile and corruptors are just so damn good against them reactively. I would suggest trying a more harass or infested terran based lategame strategy personally, but that's just my preference.
Yeah I really have trouble with counter attacks. I'm always scared that if I leave my base I'll get attacked. I'll take your advice and start going more roach infestor late game. Constant pressure always gets to me. :\
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How to punish a Terran going expansion first? (Zerg here, ofc)
Because the earliest I can get some halfdecent number of lings over, it's alreadly possible to walloff with three rax and a bunker or the likes.
So if it's unpunishable (maybe?) why wouldn't any Terran open up like that?
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On June 04 2012 01:53 Mahtasooma wrote:
How to punish a Terran going expansion first? (Zerg here, ofc)
Because the earliest I can get some halfdecent number of lings over, it's alreadly possible to walloff with three rax and a bunker or the likes.
So if it's unpunishable (maybe?) why wouldn't any Terran open up like that?
Well a lot of Terrans feel like going CC first lets the Zerg have too much free time to drone, take a free third, and get crazy creep spread going, so they think that it lets our economy be too much to overcome (even though Terrans are freely going 1 rax 3 CC these days with little punishment because you can't really scout it...)
Most prefer to open up hellion --> banshee --> 3CC these days to deny Zerg third base while freely taking their own.
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On June 04 2012 01:53 Mahtasooma wrote:
How to punish a Terran going expansion first? (Zerg here, ofc)
Because the earliest I can get some halfdecent number of lings over, it's alreadly possible to walloff with three rax and a bunker or the likes.
So if it's unpunishable (maybe?) why wouldn't any Terran open up like that?
If you can gassteal him, you will have a really good time going for an econ baneling bust ( 2 bases ~33 drones with 2 gas geysers mining ) and make like 20 or whatever obscene amount of banelings and make tons of Zerglings you can bust through his wall ( which is also his production ) woddle through the bunkers and flood in with your Zerglings.
The only cost effective ways for a Terran to win versus Baneling busts are siegetanks and hellions, both which will be critically delayed if there is only one gas geyser. If the Terran goes for Medivacs, you won. If the Terran went for Banshees, you won. If the Terran went for Marine Marauder ( lol? ) well you have Zergling-Baneling, gg.
You will need to balance your second attack after the first. If you did little damage it is better to go for a large drone burst. If you did a lot of damage you probably want to continue pressuring while getting a third behind it just to be sure.
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So in a FFE double stargate play i should be going roaches hydras? Because the spire cleary wasnt enough even i being 2 bases ahead of him. And in a zvz when i am going 14 pool gas and i spot he's going hatch first should i stop drone production when my pool finish and only go lings to kill him? Should i make a queen first? How i deal with that kind of play?
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On June 04 2012 02:33 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
So in a FFE double stargate play i should be going roaches hydras? Because the spire cleary wasnt enough even i being 2 bases ahead of him. `
No, you spore up and make tons of drones. Double stargate can't pressure your bases unless they make tons of voidrays, which you can deflect with lots of sporecrawlers and Queens. If you go hydra's the protoss can simply not attack and sit in his base waiting for your inevitable push, and deflect you with collosi because you don't have any gas left to go Corruptor.
So make spores + large drone rounds. Tech to infestor or just go mass roaches and counter attack his third over and over.
On June 04 2012 02:33 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
And in a zvz when i am going 14 pool gas and i spot he's going hatch first should i stop drone production when my pool finish and only go lings to kill him? Should i make a queen first? How i deal with that kind of play?
No, you make 6 Zerglings and plant down a hatchery on 21 supply. You don't mine more than 100 gas and you go pressure him, sniping off stray drones and generally force him to make defenses and units. Going all in with Mass zerglings is about the cheesiest thing to do and easiest to deflect if the opponent goes for baneling nest before zergling speed.
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On June 04 2012 02:40 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 02:33 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
So in a FFE double stargate play i should be going roaches hydras? Because the spire cleary wasnt enough even i being 2 bases ahead of him. ` No, you spore up and make tons of drones. Double stargate can't pressure your bases unless they make tons of voidrays, which you can deflect with lots of sporecrawlers and Queens. If you go hydra's the protoss can simply not attack and sit in his base waiting for your inevitable push, and deflect you with collosi because you don't have any gas left to go Corruptor. So make spores + large drone rounds. Tech to infestor or just go mass roaches and counter attack his third over and over. Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 02:33 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
And in a zvz when i am going 14 pool gas and i spot he's going hatch first should i stop drone production when my pool finish and only go lings to kill him? Should i make a queen first? How i deal with that kind of play? No, you make 6 Zerglings and plant down a hatchery on 21 supply. You don't mine more than 100 gas and you go pressure him, sniping off stray drones and generally force him to make defenses and units. Going all in with Mass zerglings is about the cheesiest thing to do and easiest to deflect if the opponent goes for baneling nest before zergling speed.
Oh thanks mate. But the problem is that the toss often go pure voids and phoenix and even i turtling i just cant push with my army. If i try to break his natural i dont get a nice army trade because he is full of cannons and denying his third isnt enough to stop him to get a good economy. Even beign 2 bases ahead he manage to crush my army with voyds, phoenix, carriers and so on. I dont know what unit composition should i be looking forward and how to push with my army (you said i should push with mass roaches but how i will deal with his air units that will be waiting me?) or to defend agaisnt the huge mass void, carrier army that he can pull of his 2 bases.
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On June 04 2012 02:49 aaaaaaaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 02:40 Chaosvuistje wrote:On June 04 2012 02:33 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
So in a FFE double stargate play i should be going roaches hydras? Because the spire cleary wasnt enough even i being 2 bases ahead of him. ` No, you spore up and make tons of drones. Double stargate can't pressure your bases unless they make tons of voidrays, which you can deflect with lots of sporecrawlers and Queens. If you go hydra's the protoss can simply not attack and sit in his base waiting for your inevitable push, and deflect you with collosi because you don't have any gas left to go Corruptor. So make spores + large drone rounds. Tech to infestor or just go mass roaches and counter attack his third over and over. On June 04 2012 02:33 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
And in a zvz when i am going 14 pool gas and i spot he's going hatch first should i stop drone production when my pool finish and only go lings to kill him? Should i make a queen first? How i deal with that kind of play? No, you make 6 Zerglings and plant down a hatchery on 21 supply. You don't mine more than 100 gas and you go pressure him, sniping off stray drones and generally force him to make defenses and units. Going all in with Mass zerglings is about the cheesiest thing to do and easiest to deflect if the opponent goes for baneling nest before zergling speed. Oh thanks mate. But the problem is that the toss often go pure voids and phoenix and even i turtling i just cant push with my army. If i try to break his natural i dont get a nice army trade because he is full of cannons and denying his third isnt enough to stop him to get a good economy. Even beign 2 bases ahead he manage to crush my army with voyds, phoenix, carriers and so on. I dont know what unit composition should i be looking forward and how to push with my army (you said i should push with mass roaches but how i will deal with his air units that will be waiting me?) or to defend agaisnt the huge mass void, carrier army that he can pull of his 2 bases.
Can you upload a replay and put it here? you really should be easily holding off 2 stargate play if you have a third up and are droning hardcore, while denying his third.
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I was wondering if anyone could direct me to a good guide or just give me general advice about ZvZ as I recently switched to Zerg and have no idea what I'm doing. By general advice I mean builds, timings, compositions, what to do when I see certain stuff etc
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On June 04 2012 02:40 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 02:33 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
So in a FFE double stargate play i should be going roaches hydras? Because the spire cleary wasnt enough even i being 2 bases ahead of him. ` No, you spore up and make tons of drones. Double stargate can't pressure your bases unless they make tons of voidrays, which you can deflect with lots of sporecrawlers and Queens. If you go hydra's the protoss can simply not attack and sit in his base waiting for your inevitable push, and deflect you with collosi because you don't have any gas left to go Corruptor. So make spores + large drone rounds. Tech to infestor or just go mass roaches and counter attack his third over and over. Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 02:33 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
And in a zvz when i am going 14 pool gas and i spot he's going hatch first should i stop drone production when my pool finish and only go lings to kill him? Should i make a queen first? How i deal with that kind of play? No, you make 6 Zerglings and plant down a hatchery on 21 supply. You don't mine more than 100 gas and you go pressure him, sniping off stray drones and generally force him to make defenses and units. Going all in with Mass zerglings is about the cheesiest thing to do and easiest to deflect if the opponent goes for baneling nest before zergling speed.
He probably meant to quote me about the stargate play.
Definitely trust chaos over me, but having said that, I said only to get hydras if you see him going up to large VR and phoenix numbers, i.e. he's committing to a 2-base SG all-in deal. i should have said that more clearly. you will not have infestors in time for that, in my experience, or at least not in sufficient numbers. otherwise, as i alluded to by mentioning sending a zergling to his third, you want to deny his third while droning up, especially since those spores will be eating into your drone count. ...yeah chaos' reply is just way more on the mark.
The big thing to learn vs 2SG off FFE is scaling up on sporecrawlers, as spores take awhile to build, and it's easy to be caught flatfooted by a hidden flock of VRs.
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If he's going for dedicated 2 SG all in, you can use hydras if he's VR heavy, and queens if hes phoenix heavy. You can use queens against both, but queens don't really have enough DPS against a larger amount of VRs.
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Where did this 3 hatch zvz opening on entombed valley originate. They either 15 hatch then wall off with evos or they add hatch 3 before and use it to wall off then go mass speedlings/bane. It seems dumb as now that I am aware of it I can just make way more drones and have lings and banes to crush their push and I will also have faster tech, etc. I haven't seen it before recently, though so I was wondering if it came from a specific match that happened lately or something?
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Do you guys think the 2 base infestors / glings opener from Destiny is currently viable ? Or is it not the best opening at all ?
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ZvZ question, if i go 15h, and i scout my oponnent going 14/14 which is potentially allin, When should i get my gas/pool and baneling nest to be safe?
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EPT
