EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 271
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On June 01 2012 16:00 6xFPCs wrote: I have a suspicion that you're asking HOW to do it, as well as whether or not you can. You do it by building the units you want added, (control-clicking the eggs so that you don't have any extra larvae selected,) then pressing shift-#, where the number is the control group you want to add the eggs to. This shift-# is the way to add any selected unit to the desired control group. Yeah, this is correct. I have gotten into the habit of doing this 100% of the time (high master zerg) and it's actually helped so much in not having random clumps of units sitting at your rally points. Before I started doing it (or even thought about it), I'd occasionally have a situation where it would be like "man if I had like 5 more mutas or 15 more lings I would have just attacked those marines instead of running" and then I look back at my rally point and there's the exact number of units that I wish I had. I actually don't see any situations where it's a bad thing to do.... Unless maybe you're getting attacked at your third base and you want to morph a whole bunch of units RIGHT there, so instead of 4srrrrr you select the hatchery at your third explicitly, but I still recommend adding the units to the control group right away,.... On June 02 2012 04:32 Falcon-sw wrote: What do I do if I show up with my 180 food roach/ling army at the protoss natural and he has three colossus with range + obs? I can't break it. Do I hold off and try to deny the third? You're not even going to make a dent in that protoss army with roach ling unless he has a crappy wall off (letting you get right up close to the colossus), or he's just bad in general. Park your army outside his third in a big concave and deny it for a few minutes while expanding again yourself and teching. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On June 02 2012 04:32 Falcon-sw wrote: What do I do if I show up with my 180 food roach/ling army at the protoss natural and he has three colossus with range + obs? I can't break it. Do I hold off and try to deny the third? You should show up at his natural long before 180 supply to see what he is up to. Even though it is generally called a 12 minute max, you should start being aggressive on the map as soon as you have roach speed, which may be as early as 130 supply. You don't want to attack into his natural though, but you can surround him as soon as he steps out. Generally, getting a spire is good against 2 base colossus. You can either go roach-ling-corruptor, or just switch directly to mutalisk on your first remax. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
I've got up to high Gold and was there for quite a while until I was absolutely demolished by Marine/Siege Tank/Medivacs and rage race-changed again to Terran, but swiftly went back to Zerg. Long story cut short, here are my problems: - I like to sit on good amount of larvae between the transition from mid to late game as I know that my 200/200 army is not strong as the opponent's, but I've found myself sitting at good larvae amounts in the mid game as well lately, simply because I've become too afraid to attack anyone, especially a Terran, I usually harass with Mutas, but once he realizes that, he just turtles with Marines everywhere. That is, should I try to use up all larvae at all times? As I am constantly afraid of losing my squishy army. - Afraid to attack. I'm all up for an open engagement and getting a good surround with Zerglings while microing around Banelings (if it is a Marine/Siege Tank/Medivac ball), but I lost to Terran several times simply because they turtle at their 3rd or 4th that I cannot really come close to it (the outside base on Daybreak for example while a couple of Siege Tanks and supply depos block the way into third). How do I make an attack happen into a turtling Terran? - My APM goes between 70-90, also, Queens are never above 30 Energy upon larvae inject until late game, when I'm trying hard to harass. Creep spread seems decent as well. What can I do to improve my APM? - Engagement, is it smart to have all Zerglings on 1 control group? I usually go 1-Zerglings, 2-Banelings, 3-Mutas/Corruptors, 4-Infestors, 5-Brood Lords/Ultralisks. Should I split the zergling control group to make a better surround? I've seen Idra's engagements and they are epic, my engagements are usually a swam of Zerglings in one huge "snake-like" path. - Last question (sorry for the long post), I've watched a lot of ZvP games and usually, it tends to go Roaches/Corruptors/Mutas as a general combination. I try to mass in Zerglings if I see a huge Stalker or Immortal ball with scouting, but I am just tired of almost Mono-Roaching in all ZvP match-ups (I did Stephano's 12-13min Roach max build for quite a while), if the Protoss is going for the standard Death Ball, is there a point to mix in other units than just pure Roaches? Thank you in advance. I will try to post a replay of me losing to a Diamond Protoss in a close match, so if you can be bothered to give me some tips, again, thanks  | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On June 02 2012 05:38 ysnake wrote: - I like to sit on good amount of larvae between the transition from mid to late game as I know that my 200/200 army is not strong as the opponent's, but I've found myself sitting at good larvae amounts in the mid game as well lately, simply because I've become too afraid to attack anyone, especially a Terran, I usually harass with Mutas, but once he realizes that, he just turtles with Marines everywhere. That is, should I try to use up all larvae at all times? As I am constantly afraid of losing my squishy army. First of all, what is your ZvT late game plan? Most pro's go infestor/broodlord (though some like to use ultras). When you have terran contained you have map control. This is the entire point of a muta harass. Use the opportunity to drone up, tech up, and expand. Late game strategies need at least 4 bases and you should have your third well before the ten minute mark. As for spending your larva, it's good to have a standing force in case terran moves out, but if you can spend that money on drones and tech without dying then go right ahead! Ideally, you want to engage terran when they're in transit with tanks unsieged. Even if they are sieged you can make a good attack through flanks. What you don't want to do is charge headlong into a choke because then the marine/tank/medivac is most cost-effective. - Afraid to attack. I'm all up for an open engagement and getting a good surround with Zerglings while microing around Banelings (if it is a Marine/Siege Tank/Medivac ball), but I lost to Terran several times simply because they turtle at their 3rd or 4th that I cannot really come close to it (the outside base on Daybreak for example while a couple of Siege Tanks and supply depos block the way into third). How do I make an attack happen into a turtling Terran? If terran is turtling you have a free pass to drone, take expansions, and tech. Broodlords are the zerg siege unit, so you don't want to try and break a turtled base unless you have plenty of BL/Infestor. Ultimately, if you can defeat the army you'll buy yourself more time to expand, drone, and tech while terran sits turtled up macro'ing up another army. It makes for some long games, but if you lose an entire army trying to break a terran front they're just going to a-move and kill you. There are other little tricks like chucking a ton of infested terran eggs at a siege line to absorb the hits instead of the zergling/baneling, dropping, running banelings past planetaries so they shoot the banelings who in turn kill scvs, but getting your ideal late game composition as quickly as possible should be favored over little tricks. - My APM goes between 70-90, also, Queens are never above 30 Energy upon larvae inject until late game, when I'm trying hard to harass. Creep spread seems decent as well. What can I do to improve my APM? Just play more and your speed will naturally increase. You're not at a level where APM will hold you back. When I played BW I kept track of APM after my games and compiled a long term graph. This is the result: ![[image loading]](http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z310/j5bruno/apmtracking12609.jpg){kind=tracking} Note - all points over 120 APM were practice games where I spammed a lot As you can see, APM gradually increased the more I played, stayed relatively stable when I was inactive, and gradually decreased when I played a little more. I kept this same graph going through summer 2010 and incorporated EAPM, but the same slow increase was present. - Engagement, is it smart to have all Zerglings on 1 control group? I usually go 1-Zerglings, 2-Banelings, 3-Mutas/Corruptors, 4-Infestors, 5-Brood Lords/Ultralisks. Should I split the zergling control group to make a better surround? I've seen Idra's engagements and they are epic, my engagements are usually a swam of Zerglings in one huge "snake-like" path. It depends on what you're trying to do. I usually have my lings on one control group and then grab small sets to put them in better positions. If I'm setting up a flank I'll make a separate group for the flanks. Otherwise a lot of this is up to personal preference. Though, most players seem to have a hotkey for the bulk of the army, one for infestors, and one for mutas/other harassing units. - Last question (sorry for the long post), I've watched a lot of ZvP games and usually, it tends to go Roaches/Corruptors/Mutas as a general combination. I try to mass in Zerglings if I see a huge Stalker or Immortal ball with scouting, but I am just tired of almost Mono-Roaching in all ZvP match-ups (I did Stephano's 12-13min Roach max build for quite a while), if the Protoss is going for the standard Death Ball, is there a point to mix in other units than just pure Roaches? First of all, the Tang's guide for Stephano style roach has you max at 12 minutes. TL seems to hold 11:30 as the golden standard and it's been proven that you can max around the 11 minute mark. The opener, on the other hand, is perfect against a FFE. Mass roach is one way to play the midgame, but it has its own set of advantages and disadvantages. Namely, your tech is behind and your roach army needs to damage or delay toss in some way (usually in trading units, challenging third, etc). On the other hand, if toss is doing something strange or has bad macro this strategy will outright kill them. Your desired midgame is definitely a way to play the midgame, just make sure you're not overextending your resources. The point is to get the late game composition. You can always make enough roaches to hold off any kind of two base shenanigans and turtle/tech. Toss will get a third base, but you'll enter the late game in better shape. Mutas are a nice tool to harass toss, but make sure you're not overcommiting your resources and supply. At some point they're going to make the colossus/zealot/blink stalker/archon/mothership deathball and you're REALLY going to need infestor/corruptor/broodlord to contend. 25 mutas is kind of scary, but if toss shuts down the harass and moves out you're not going to have much to answer for it. Pure roach is strong, but against high tech protoss units you're not going to have a cost-effective engagement. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Basically, my plan in ZvT is Zergling/Baneling/Infestor with Muta harass coming before Infestors mostly (if the Terran decides to turtle). Of course, this is the plan for Marine/Siege Tank/Medivac, with Mech I go with Roaches/Infestors and later on Brood Lords. For Marine/Medivac/Siege Tank, I never use Brood Lords, even though I should. I dislike Brood Lords simply because they are too slow and they take a lot of my supply (not to mention gas), and require a lot of baby-sitting with Corruptors against Vikings and such, but that's just me saying "I'm not that good to confront the ground and the air army at the same time". Simply because I do not use them for their cost efficiency. Against Protoss, my main concern is that I am almost playing a Mono-Roach game against Protoss, apart from Muta harass, I really do not know what else to make in the combination of my Roaches. Of course, Corruptors for Colossi, Hydras if mass Rays, and maybe several Zerglings for counter-attacks, that is, when he moves out. What I meant with Stephano's build is that I've grown tired of just spamming Roaches, heh, some players even raged at me when I just kept massing on Roaches at their doorstep, it almost felt kind-of-a cheese. I should've rephrased my question and that is: - How to utilize other units against a standard Protoss play? Infestors are good for keeping the Stalkers in place, Zerglings are good for counter-attacks, etc, but is it really worth to invest in other units other than Roaches to go up against a Protoss? Also, my usual opening against Toss/Terran is 14 pool 15 hatch 15 queen 17 zerlings 17 extractor 17 overlord etc Is this a decent opener as it is really timed with larvae and mineral count? Thank you in advance again | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On June 02 2012 08:16 ysnake wrote: Thank you for a lengthy and insightful reply mate. Basically, my plan in ZvT is Zergling/Baneling/Infestor with Muta harass coming before Infestors mostly (if the Terran decides to turtle). Of course, this is the plan for Marine/Siege Tank/Medivac, with Mech I go with Roaches/Infestors and later on Brood Lords. For Marine/Medivac/Siege Tank, I never use Brood Lords, even though I should. I dislike Brood Lords simply because they are too slow and they take a lot of my supply (not to mention gas), and require a lot of baby-sitting with Corruptors against Vikings and such, but that's just me saying "I'm not that good to confront the ground and the air army at the same time". Simply because I do not use them for their cost efficiency. Against Protoss, my main concern is that I am almost playing a Mono-Roach game against Protoss, apart from Muta harass, I really do not know what else to make in the combination of my Roaches. Of course, Corruptors for Colossi, Hydras if mass Rays, and maybe several Zerglings for counter-attacks, that is, when he moves out. What I meant with Stephano's build is that I've grown tired of just spamming Roaches, heh, some players even raged at me when I just kept massing on Roaches at their doorstep, it almost felt kind-of-a cheese. I should've rephrased my question and that is: - How to utilize other units against a standard Protoss play? Infestors are good for keeping the Stalkers in place, Zerglings are good for counter-attacks, etc, but is it really worth to invest in other units other than Roaches to go up against a Protoss? Also, my usual opening against Toss/Terran is 14 pool 15 hatch 15 queen 17 zerlings 17 extractor 17 overlord etc Is this a decent opener as it is really timed with larvae and mineral count? Thank you in advance again For the protoss check out Belial's guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 As for the opener, you should really 15 hatch versus terran. You need the early pool against toss because it's well known, even among gold tosses, that if zerg 15 hatches you do a strong canon rush. The early pool drastically reduces the strength of a canon rush plus you will have units out quicker to take care of the inevitable pylon block. With terran you can get the economic edge of a 15 hatch safely. Also, don't be afraid of BL in ZvT. I didn't use them a whole lot either until the last couple months. broodlings are very strong and they're essentially free units. Sure, you'll need corruptors and infestors to fungal/kill vikings, but they work very well against marine/tank compositions. Just look at Stephano versus Polt in the Lonestar clash a few months ago! The tradeoff is mobility and the need to protect the expensive army, but for the raw power it produces it's well worth the trade! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
And most of the time, just infestors will work against vikings. You can also rally reinforcing corruptors, and use transfuse or infestors to buy time for undefended broodlords vs vikings. Check out my ZvT thread, I have a few replays where I go pure bl/corruptor/infestor with great effect against Terran. The only thing you need to worry about (its true its a slow army, but lategame terran is even slower) is drops, but at that point in the game, you should have 6+ spines at each new expansion and your main, patrolling banes at expansions, and complete sight of the ENTIRE map with your creep spread and overlords (literally, you should have vision of 99% of the map outside of terrans base with your overlords). If you don't like bl/corruptor/infestor, either stick to all-inning, or switch races, because zerg's ultimate goal in all 3 match-ups, is always pure broodlord/corruptor with like 1-4 infestors (generally though, it ends with just bl/infestor - and even if ultras are used, they are only used to transition to broodlords safely because they are cheaper and come out a little quicker at times when the opponent can do pushes that would kill you if you go BL, but also kill you if you are still on lair tech, or that's the idea behind ultras anways in the current resurgence of them in the metagame). Read my ZvP and ZvT guides, your opening is horrible for both match-ups. I explain everything you need to know. Have you just not read my guide, or was it inadequate? And no, not worth it to invest in other units against Toss. (hydras are a timing attack based unit, and arguably okay for dealing with timing all-ins, banelings are arguably good for anti-archon toilet, ling+roach for early game and mid-game, ultras are a no no in zvp..). My awesome zvp guide that answers every zvp question My awesome zvt guide that answers every zvt question | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
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BlueKatz
68 Posts
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
I used to do this a lot, but I notice that it doesnt really seem to be as effective against 1 rax fe/reaper fe into bio play/ hellion+banshee. Depending on what the terran goes, when do you think is a good opportuity to go for the roach/baneling attack? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I have seen recently in some streams pro's making the natural into the lair. Is that a good idea? Also sim city anyone have any recommendations for tech placement. Should all your main tech building be in the main. Or spread among other bases? You make the lair based on a few decisions: 1. What's the furthest base away from your opponent? If it's close air metalopolis for example, you might want to consider making your third your lair. In ZvT, I tend to make the base furthest by air as my lair, due to drops. It also has the added benefit of making it harder for him to scout, because 90% of the time they scan your main instead of your natural. It's all about what's safest, and what the value of things are to you. For example, if you are going a fast third strategy, you might as well make your third your lair because you'll lose if you lose it, lair or not (i mean if it's a better choice than your main). Don't just blindly make your main your lair every game. Obviously, your natural is a little more exposed to straight up pushes, but it tends to be less prone to harass as your main or 'outer' bases are (the natural generally being 'between' your third and main on most maps), and generally, if the opponent in range of your natural, you've probably lost the game and having the lair in your main instead of your natural wouldn't have changed the game results. Like close air metal zvt? Terran will constantly drop your main, probably drop your 6th base a ton if it gets to that point, but will rarely ever drop your third. The third is also the furthest base from the Terran on close air metal, so it's really the best place to make the lair in that match-up. If it's cross spawns though, you may want to avoid making the third a lair, and instead go with the further main, or do a compromise by just making it at the natural, which is least likely to get dropped on cross spawn metal, while still being further than the third is, to the opponent. But my biggest consideration when going lair is generally to avoid it being harassed, and less about it being straight up pushed (since straight up timings will win if you lose a base, lair, third, or main). So close air against terran? of course dont make your main your lair. 2. Health. If a base is in the red, probably not a good idea to make it the lair - so if your main is nearly dead due to some sort of pressure in the early game, probably shouldn't make it the lair. On the other hand, if it's in the yellow, you might consider making a base into the lair to give it added HP, because a hatchery at 50% hp will turn into a lair with 50% hp, and a lair has a lot more health than a hatchery. This may also be better if you have a strong advantage and you know the opponent won't be able to do any sort of pressure or sniping of your base any time soon, so giving a health boost to a low health building by making it the lair can be a good idea. 3. Anti-Scouting. Sometimes when a big overlord is in your main, or a ling scout got in there, but you know there is no overlord over your natural, make the natural the lair instead so the opponent doesn't know what you are doing, for longer. 4. Player/Strat/Race specific reasons. For example, you know the person you are playing is likely to do some sort of robo opening (and hence possibly do that 4 sentry, FF the ramp, snipe your main bullshit), or you even see the robo before it comes time to make your lair (or you know he's going robo, for whatever reason), you might want to avoid making the main your lair (or maybe you should just never make your main the lair in ZvP!). As for tech placement, depends on the match-up. ZvT, i tend to never put my tech in main due to drops, and put it at the 'innermost' of my bases (third on metal, main on cloud kingdom, natural on ohana) because of drops (they tend to hit your 'outer' bases). ZvZ, in your main - you can just get owned by getting your tech sniped by a runby, and a few banes, spines, whatever, can shut them down easily with the ramp. ZvP, i absolutely sim city my tech behind mineral lines, and will even sim city spines around precious tech like my spire, to put the least surface area on it vs zealot/dt warp prism harass. Every building you place, where you place it, should have a specific reason for where you place it. Like everything in this game, everything you do needs to be there for a reason. Sim city is also just as likely to fuck you over, so be careful. All your tech in one place will suck against drops, sim city in ZvZ is prone to just getting tech sniped when the opponent just sac's 10 roaches. I used to sim-city my baneling nest in my natural when going hatch first vs 14/14, to help against baneling all-ins, but i stopped after a while because it also ended up hurting me just as much when they would snipe it before it finished, or if the opponent did a ton of baneling aggression and the baneling nest eventually dying to splash. What should I do vs Stargate Expand build? Try putting more effort into your questions, post replays please, and analyze your replays. Because if we really knew the perfect answer to your question, we'd be pros. It's not even clear if you mean 2 gate stargate expand (which is a horrible build, just take your fast third as standard while getting gas because he opened gateway and laugh as you race ahead in econ and smash him with 200/200 banelings), FFE, 1/3gate sentry expands into stargate... Best I can say to your horrible, lazy question, is to drone hard because it means no immediate gateway pressure, while responding by pulling your queens to defend immediately while planting spores or making queen as necessary. If you find out against 5 void rays, throw down 6 spores at that base immediately and eventually some will pop in time, while you plant 1-2 in the other bases, if you find out against the first stargate unit, just add another queen, maybe 1 spore at the third, and play calmly (dont want to make 3 spores against just a single void ray...). Use the re-root ability to your advantage, it's incredibly useful to just re-root spores, you really don't need many, just a queen or 2 extra and 2 roving spores that you uproot constantly in anticipation. Hey, just wondering what are your guys's thoughts on the 8-9min 3 gas roach/baneling attack on terran. I used to do this a lot, but I notice that it doesnt really seem to be as effective against 1 rax fe/reaper fe into bio play/ hellion+banshee. Depending on what the terran goes, when do you think is a good opportuity to go for the roach/baneling attack? I always roach/bane bust if my overlord that I'm using to poke around his base, or the initial 2 lings I made, spot the third. This is generally very rare to actually spot, since you should generally sac an overlord at 30+ supply, or 40+ if you confirm he FE'd (which you generally do against fast third players), but sometimes you get lucky with just an overlord poking in to his base to maybe see what's up but you aren't trying to sacrifice quite yet, or sometimes the terran is a moron and makes the third a part of his wall-in. Roach/bane bust is basically an autowin against a Terran who goes fast third (third before 35 supply). With certain tech openings, there's nothing he can do, while with others, he would be hard pressed to survive even if he just throws a ton of bunkers down and rushes siege tech. I would say almost always, if terran goes fast third, he will end up behind if you do a roach/bane bust with good macro (and half decent micro, derp, banes blow up only to bust through, scvs, marines). That's what the roach/bane bust was created for. To punish terrans who just started going stupid fast thirds. If terran doesn't go stupidly fast third (not normal ~50+ third, or even 40+, but like started at 20-30 supply), then Terran can come out ahead if he knows it's coming, or if he opens the right build (marine/marauder, reactor hellion into 2 base rine/tank). So yea. It's a GREAT all-in to do reactively if you see terran go fast third. Otherwise, don't do it. If you want to maybe sac an overlord at ~30 supply instead of 40, even when you see he expanded, to see if he took a fast third and then reactively roach/bane bust, go for it, you'll win lots of games with it (you just may have a harder time deciphering what his follow-up to his expansion). | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 01 2012 21:59 ChriseC wrote: How to win ZVP on Cloud Kingdom or Entombed valley? i have massive problems on this map when toss get a really early 3rd base, they can defend it with much less effort than on other maps and the map design allows it to defend ur main just by defending ur natural and 3rd. due to their fast 3rd they get maxed out abit faster what makes their 3base push much more powerful, right before broodlords. i know i can make huge walls of spines, but especially on cloud kingdom theres so much space to cover for ur 4th and 5th and rush distance is relativly low on that map aswell. basetrading with mutas seemed to work best for me, but i guess its mostly cuz alot of tosses arnt that familiar with it and mess up alot what is ur overall plan on those maps? I can't comment on entombed (have had it vetoed for awhile), but i LOVE cloud kingdom, and i really like zvp there specifically. i am a humble low masters zerg, maybe take this with a grain of salt, etc. also show us a replay of your zvp on cloud if you can. the toss third is very vulnerable because you can bypass the ramp by taking the high ground path (edge of the map). it takes maybe 10 seconds longer than taking the ramp, but gives you a LOT of space to work with, demanding a lot of forcefields from toss to hold against big roach numbers. furthermore, running some reinforcing lings or even roaches around the back of the third (i.e. from the ramp near the natural then towards the third) will cut off reinforcements and expose their sentries/immortals to direct fire. if you let them get that early third, you want to take the low-ground fourth and spine there. but you're right, spines won't defend enough, so you want to make sure you keep tabs on him. generally, you'll keep your army near the front of your natural to contest that ramp, but you should know where he's going and be able to react accordingly. if he goes for the fourth, the spines should buy you enough time to either flank (if he went for that ramp to force you to stay near natural, then bounced to the fourth) or reinforce (if he attacked from the middle high ground, which you should see coming). this more forward fourth base makes it easier for BLs, as does any close but forward base, and ideally you want to push across and sit around the ramp to the front of the natural. my overall plan on cloud kingdom is to force a cancel on the third using roach ling. should that fail, take the low-ground fourth and delay drone production (for the fourth) to make sure that I can maintain map presence, if not control. if you're saturated on three bases at that point (i assume 3hatch vs FFE, that's 90% of my ZvP on cloud), you can transfer a large handful of drones from your main, and a few from the natural and third, boosting your income without risking a loss of the fourth. with that bigger army (again, from not producing drones at this point), I break the rocks at the natural ramp and start rallying a few lings at a time around the high ground into the third, forcing him to move back and forth or invest in cannons. i pick away at his defense conservatively, baiting forcefields etc., and generally harassing to buy time for BLs. If you can park BLs above the cliff at his natural or the pillars near his third, he's going to have a tough time using blink stalkers to combat them, and those positions keep you close enough to force him to defend. this isn't a very focused post, which i guess is ok because you're also asking about general approaches to the map, but my biggest point is that i feel like it's VERY easy to deny the toss third. again, this is my opinion only, but i think that if you let him get it, it's because you didn't leave a ling or overlord there and he got cannons or a gateway wall up before you could contest it--i.e. because you screwed up. the non-ramp part of the third is just a roach playground, yet so many zergs insist on not simply relying on the ramp to attack the third, but also to attack into the edge of the ramp, which basically gives the toss an easy three-forcefield full wall. i'm curious to hear what others think of the map now though, since i've been an outspoken proponent of cloud as a zerg map since it made it on to ladder. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 02 2012 08:57 Belial88 wrote: My awesome zvp guide that answers every zvp question My awesome zvt guide that answers every zvt question maybe a mod should just sticky all the major guides? would that cut down on some of the basic help posts? i know there's a stickied thread about the guides, but having it at the top of the thread might be worth considering. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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Asarha
France71 Posts
they made 6 or 7 roach, and expand between the push... I want to know, Is that just some weird useless build, that low league do, or is there a real opening "roach expand" ? | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
 vs  ParadoX vs Michael ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png) Is hydra/queen the right transition from stephano 3-hatch roach against mass double stargate mass void ray? I opened 12 pool into 3hatch stephano style roach max, but as my warren completed and lair started, i scouted a stargate (and had seen early gas already) so I started getting extra queens, then saw a void ray, dropped spore at each base, then ended up fighting off double-stargate void rays. I sat on larva, floated mad money, droned to like 80 or 90, and just had like 8 queen and waiting for hydras. When den popped, i made about 40 hydras, then went and attacked with queen/hydra for an easy win. HOWEVER, someone told me in tl chat that what I did should have lost. I watched the replay and honestly the guy I played seemed pretty bad (and i'm no pro either), so I want to ask. Thanks for any help. | ||
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Guamshin
Netherlands295 Posts
On June 01 2012 14:27 6xFPCs wrote: low masters zerg, i'll take a crack at it. Game notes: + Show Spoiler + opening looks fine. i recommend maynarding drones to the natural as soon as possible, and just going with 2 lings instead of 4. you saw the hellions, you had three (four?) queens, and you didn't block the ramp, costing you seven drones? that's not "playing decent", that's a pretty big mistake. it moved you from "decent" to "even with terran". which i'm sure we can all agree is a Bad Thing. you stopped scouting after hellions came out, even though you're close by air on metal. i don't like your midgame build. you want dual upgrade lings but go with fast lair. you start the upgrades at the same time as the spire. now as you wait for those you start your third, and your macro hatch is finishing. you are really really weak at this time and have not scouted in awhile. good creep spread. you should take back towers earlier, once ling speed is out you want to start contesting his hellion-based map control, especially since the towers on metal become enclosed death traps for his hellions should he have four or fewer. your thirds come up at around the same time. again, you're even, but it feels as though you're playing as though you're ahead, expecting him to do something to take away your imaginary lead. at 12min you finally fly some mutas into his base, despite doing what is essentially a two-base muta build? at 13min you shoot up to 84 drones vs his 57, without scouting. hope you don't die. you freak out when he drops your unsaturated fourth, and don't get the medivac kill because you keep your mutas at the front of your natural. you send a good portion of your army and kill the marines, but somehow manage to let him siege below your main, in what is pretty much the best defensive spot he could hope for. you then run in piecemeal and lose a lot of banelings for five or six marines. you win the fight but it's not efficient. that's ok, you're getting your fourth and now fifth populated. you really need to contest that corridor under the watchtower, between your mains. he sieges up in the same spot, but you push him back with lots of stuff. again, it's inefficient, he gets some good siege shots on banelings, but you pull through. finally hive, finally greater spire. 22:07 you attack into a well-fortified, sieged terran army, with muta ling bane. no surprise that instead of an inefficient win, it's a straight loss, and you're going to be hard-pressed to make it to BL if this guy has any intelligence (jury's still out on that). 23min, please build things, you have lots of larvae and 2.2k minerals, you need an army before you die, and you really might because your corruptors just finished. you seem super focused on making eleven or so spines, which would cause you to die while waiting for them to finish, because marines can run there from his front in one stim, or just go hit your third/fourth/fifth. you also need to put drones on gas at your fifth, it's why you have excess minerals. you take care of the drop at your fifth quite well, having left units there. nice. you should remake some more drones after sinking that many into spines, you're emulating stephano but from a way lower drone count (mid-70s vs 90+). he's now ahead in both workers and econ. 25:40 or so, you lose infestors for nothing. your problem in this spot wasn't mobility, it's a-moving everywhere with units of different speeds--the lings were already at your fifth, BLs still near the gold, infestors in front of the BLs. have stuff follow the BLs or something. more drops. big problem is the lack of drones now, you defend and only lose what, a baneling nest? you then go defend another attack near your fifth without a problem, but you're steadily losing BLs. need to reinforce with corruptors, having 0 energy infestors against vikings doesn't mean you make more infestors, you make corruptors and let the infestors regen energy. the planetary at the gold is your undoing. he's just going to out produce you now that he's whittled down your army. boy you keep losing infestors, and it forced you into that last losing engagement. Analysis: You were not doing decently for the early and midgame. Sorry. This should have been obvious from the first viewing of the replay. Losing those six or seven drones was somewhat bad, and then letting him take a quick third was bad. You seem content to crush his attacks inefficiently, but never to press your advantage and try for damage. odd, because your mutas would let you camp production quite easily, or poke holes. even worse, you do this defense without teching to BL for a long time, getting infestors, or any other switch into something that will let you break through his defense. you failed to deny his fourth, then later his gold. basically, you guys both sat back, then he started dropping and pulling you around, eventually causing enough damage that your income, which skyrocketed when you took your fourth and fifth, dropped below his--you didn't help this with your useless spinecrawler wall, which you never retreated to while using BLs to hold your fourth/fifth. from there, he kept up the attrition on your army and won through production. Mutas do not suit you, you really should consider infestors. You like to sit around, you are good at leaving two banes and some lings to stop drops, and never use mutas to harass or kill medivacs. You like dual upgrade lings, mutas slow the dual upgrades. Had you foregone lair and just went straight double upgrade lings, you would've done better even without infestors (lings ahead of marines on upgrades eat terran armies alive). You don't scout his natural, you don't watch for his third, so you play safe and end up outmacro'd in the midgame, then when you pull back in mid-lategame, you don't have a strong lategame play, you just try for a BL-infestor composition with a spine wall without knowing how to handle it. Move the spines up, get it so that your BLs are shooting into his main while sitting near spines which protect infestors. You lose infestors, which leaves you without enough corruptors/BLs. Maybe you go muta because you lose infestors a lot? You even already put them on a separate hotkey, but you leave them undefended, or try to run in for fungal without support. Somehow, every time you fight, they're up front and dying. tl;dr you were not doing well econ-wise at first (a minor point), you should try infestors and keep them protected instead of going muta and not using your mutas. you have lots of idle larvae at some points (like 20+). you transition out of muta-ling-bane late, you are not handling your lategame comp well, nor your lategame econ. and to answer your concern about aggression, you were attacking head-on into his fortified natural. try sneaking lings or banes to his third, perhaps while using mutas to harass his main. you always attack into sieged tanks because you're not scouting for when he moves out, so he always shreds your banelings. I got my build from Hyun and i believe Symbol used it aswell so it can't be bad(although i think my macro+3rd timings were a bit off). I saw the hellions too late and 1 queen was still coming from my base(not on creep) but still i'm pretty sure losing those hellions to 6 or so drones is worse because he loses map control. I think i droned a little bit too much around 13 min but since he was playing passive and (i felt this) his army was not that big. I felt like i could get enough ling/bane if he pushed at that point. Also the point where my minerals where high, thats pretty normal at that point i only had my gold base left(blocked by a creep tumor lol) and i was also almost maxed out so not that much i could have spent besides spines and more macro hatcheries. I usually go muta because i find engaging with ling/infestor into BL/infestor or Ultra/infestor very very cost inefficient when i look at replays(KRpro like korean weekly), i usually make too few lings and engage in too choked up places T_T. I agree with pretty much the rest you said, my engagements were quite awful. I'm still experimenting with control groups, i'll try to find something more efficient, only using this because Hyun (fav BW player) uses it :D. Players(Revival, Hyun, Symbol, KDY, Nestea) who use similiar control groups also have macro "problems". I'll check out Infestor play more too. Thank you for answering, appreciate it!~ | ||
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25 Posts
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