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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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AshenCZ
Czech Republic46 Posts
On June 01 2012 04:24 Terrorcore wrote: Check out Belial's guides! They helped me a lot! ZvP ZvT ZvZ (countering early pool builds) Good luck Thanks a lot! I will look into them and let's rock!  Even now, I am not sure if to switch, but I will see how I feel once a actually know something about this race :D Thanks once more! BLarhrrgrrgrhr! | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 01 2012 03:07 Guamshin wrote: 2nd time asking this: ZvT both diamonds. http://drop.sc/188408 Pretty standard game i went hatch first with the 4 queen build, he went some sort of really safe hellion expand that you don't see alot anymore. Up untill around 20 minutes in the game i felt that i was playing pretty decent but then when i was being aggressive the battles didn't go well at all( i had a short timing where i could have killed him) and eventually he came out ahead, took his 3rd base and i decided to go infestor brood lord, but my army never really became big because of somehow lacking gas(blocked my gold base with creep tumor T_T) he also abused my immobile army and my engagements were bad too, i just couldn't get enough units. GG Now those are my thoughts, but im not sure if i should have stopped using muta ling bane after all i didn't have enough gas? should i have continued to just max out and attack? I also felt i had too many mutas and too little lings/banes. I find it hard too see the crucial mistakes other then the ones i've already mentioned low masters zerg, i'll take a crack at it. Game notes: + Show Spoiler + opening looks fine. i recommend maynarding drones to the natural as soon as possible, and just going with 2 lings instead of 4. you saw the hellions, you had three (four?) queens, and you didn't block the ramp, costing you seven drones? that's not "playing decent", that's a pretty big mistake. it moved you from "decent" to "even with terran". which i'm sure we can all agree is a Bad Thing. you stopped scouting after hellions came out, even though you're close by air on metal. i don't like your midgame build. you want dual upgrade lings but go with fast lair. you start the upgrades at the same time as the spire. now as you wait for those you start your third, and your macro hatch is finishing. you are really really weak at this time and have not scouted in awhile. good creep spread. you should take back towers earlier, once ling speed is out you want to start contesting his hellion-based map control, especially since the towers on metal become enclosed death traps for his hellions should he have four or fewer. your thirds come up at around the same time. again, you're even, but it feels as though you're playing as though you're ahead, expecting him to do something to take away your imaginary lead. at 12min you finally fly some mutas into his base, despite doing what is essentially a two-base muta build? at 13min you shoot up to 84 drones vs his 57, without scouting. hope you don't die. you freak out when he drops your unsaturated fourth, and don't get the medivac kill because you keep your mutas at the front of your natural. you send a good portion of your army and kill the marines, but somehow manage to let him siege below your main, in what is pretty much the best defensive spot he could hope for. you then run in piecemeal and lose a lot of banelings for five or six marines. you win the fight but it's not efficient. that's ok, you're getting your fourth and now fifth populated. you really need to contest that corridor under the watchtower, between your mains. he sieges up in the same spot, but you push him back with lots of stuff. again, it's inefficient, he gets some good siege shots on banelings, but you pull through. finally hive, finally greater spire. 22:07 you attack into a well-fortified, sieged terran army, with muta ling bane. no surprise that instead of an inefficient win, it's a straight loss, and you're going to be hard-pressed to make it to BL if this guy has any intelligence (jury's still out on that). 23min, please build things, you have lots of larvae and 2.2k minerals, you need an army before you die, and you really might because your corruptors just finished. you seem super focused on making eleven or so spines, which would cause you to die while waiting for them to finish, because marines can run there from his front in one stim, or just go hit your third/fourth/fifth. you also need to put drones on gas at your fifth, it's why you have excess minerals. you take care of the drop at your fifth quite well, having left units there. nice. you should remake some more drones after sinking that many into spines, you're emulating stephano but from a way lower drone count (mid-70s vs 90+). he's now ahead in both workers and econ. 25:40 or so, you lose infestors for nothing. your problem in this spot wasn't mobility, it's a-moving everywhere with units of different speeds--the lings were already at your fifth, BLs still near the gold, infestors in front of the BLs. have stuff follow the BLs or something. more drops. big problem is the lack of drones now, you defend and only lose what, a baneling nest? you then go defend another attack near your fifth without a problem, but you're steadily losing BLs. need to reinforce with corruptors, having 0 energy infestors against vikings doesn't mean you make more infestors, you make corruptors and let the infestors regen energy. the planetary at the gold is your undoing. he's just going to out produce you now that he's whittled down your army. boy you keep losing infestors, and it forced you into that last losing engagement. Analysis: You were not doing decently for the early and midgame. Sorry. This should have been obvious from the first viewing of the replay. Losing those six or seven drones was somewhat bad, and then letting him take a quick third was bad. You seem content to crush his attacks inefficiently, but never to press your advantage and try for damage. odd, because your mutas would let you camp production quite easily, or poke holes. even worse, you do this defense without teching to BL for a long time, getting infestors, or any other switch into something that will let you break through his defense. you failed to deny his fourth, then later his gold. basically, you guys both sat back, then he started dropping and pulling you around, eventually causing enough damage that your income, which skyrocketed when you took your fourth and fifth, dropped below his--you didn't help this with your useless spinecrawler wall, which you never retreated to while using BLs to hold your fourth/fifth. from there, he kept up the attrition on your army and won through production. Mutas do not suit you, you really should consider infestors. You like to sit around, you are good at leaving two banes and some lings to stop drops, and never use mutas to harass or kill medivacs. You like dual upgrade lings, mutas slow the dual upgrades. Had you foregone lair and just went straight double upgrade lings, you would've done better even without infestors (lings ahead of marines on upgrades eat terran armies alive). You don't scout his natural, you don't watch for his third, so you play safe and end up outmacro'd in the midgame, then when you pull back in mid-lategame, you don't have a strong lategame play, you just try for a BL-infestor composition with a spine wall without knowing how to handle it. Move the spines up, get it so that your BLs are shooting into his main while sitting near spines which protect infestors. You lose infestors, which leaves you without enough corruptors/BLs. Maybe you go muta because you lose infestors a lot? You even already put them on a separate hotkey, but you leave them undefended, or try to run in for fungal without support. Somehow, every time you fight, they're up front and dying. tl;dr you were not doing well econ-wise at first (a minor point), you should try infestors and keep them protected instead of going muta and not using your mutas. you have lots of idle larvae at some points (like 20+). you transition out of muta-ling-bane late, you are not handling your lategame comp well, nor your lategame econ. and to answer your concern about aggression, you were attacking head-on into his fortified natural. try sneaking lings or banes to his third, perhaps while using mutas to harass his main. you always attack into sieged tanks because you're not scouting for when he moves out, so he always shreds your banelings. | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
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Creegz
Canada354 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If you know the enemy is say, making DTs, i wont do it so units are at home. theres lots of cute things you can do - add units to control groups while morphing, remove all of X type from a control group, et cetera. just play around with ctrl+shift, shift+, and ctrl+ with left clicks and right clicks, learn what they all do. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 01 2012 14:34 oZii wrote: Noob question is it possible to add un hatched eggs with units in them to your control groups? I've seen people do stuff with the eggs I know you can send overlords or give some rally points. Watching Belial's stream now and it looks like he is adding them to his control group before they finishes hatching. Unless I'm mistaken destiny does something with eggs but he moves so fast I can't ever catch it. I have a suspicion that you're asking HOW to do it, as well as whether or not you can. You do it by building the units you want added, (control-clicking the eggs so that you don't have any extra larvae selected,) then pressing shift-#, where the number is the control group you want to add the eggs to. This shift-# is the way to add any selected unit to the desired control group. | ||
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GhostySC2
New Zealand49 Posts
Thanks | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On June 01 2012 17:53 GhostySC2 wrote: I have a question:- In ZvP I usually go for the mass-roach ala Stephano build, taking a 3rd Hatchery at around 4:30 (if my opponent is FFE). I usually have a scouting overlord in place at the 7min mark to run into their base and see what's happening. The problem arises when I see a 7 warpgate push coming: It's too late to cancel my 3rd and 9 times out of 10 I lose my 3rd to this push as it is too strong for me (especially on maps like Antiga Shipyard!). I have heard people say that you should cancel your 3rd if you see a 7gate coming but by this time it is already too late... I don't know how to react to a 7gate, against Stargate I usually just throw down spores and make queens and hold it... but what should I do in this situation? Am I scouting too late because I have always been told that 7mins is the perfect time to scout at. Thanks You don't want to cancel your 3rd. Instead, you want to try to deny his proxy pylon and get a hell of a lot of units out in a hurry. If you think a 7-gate is coming, get zergling speed with your first 100 gas, delay your lair, and start getting units out (prioritize making roaches at your 3rd base.) Basically you just have to make a ton of units. Try not to fight off of creep. You end up cutting drones in the ballpark of 50 instead of droning directly to 66-70. Remember to catch up on those drones as soon as the pressure lightens up (if you hold it). | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 01 2012 17:53 GhostySC2 wrote: I have a question:- In ZvP I usually go for the mass-roach ala Stephano build, taking a 3rd Hatchery at around 4:30 (if my opponent is FFE). I usually have a scouting overlord in place at the 7min mark to run into their base and see what's happening. The problem arises when I see a 7 warpgate push coming: It's too late to cancel my 3rd and 9 times out of 10 I lose my 3rd to this push as it is too strong for me (especially on maps like Antiga Shipyard!). I have heard people say that you should cancel your 3rd if you see a 7gate coming but by this time it is already too late... I don't know how to react to a 7gate, against Stargate I usually just throw down spores and make queens and hold it... but what should I do in this situation? Am I scouting too late because I have always been told that 7mins is the perfect time to scout at. Thanks I am not sure who told you this, but you wouldn't have time to cancel your third even if he is doing a 7 warpgate rush as your third hatchery should be done well before the timing. What you should be doing is droning and if you see 7 warpgates finishing you should be pumping a lot of roach/ling to hold it. It's really not that hard, the hardest parts are not getting supply blocked, not missing injects, and always getting units out. That is what you should be doing and you can hold any 2 base all in with this style. This is crucial to learn how to hold it off, have a friend and you practice until you can do it, but trust me you can. Just work on it and you will be happy that you stuck it through! I personally scout at 6:30-6:45 as you will see the gateways warping in and if you see 6 warping in, you know he's doing a timing and you know once those gateways finish his warpgates should be done and then his all in comes. | ||
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FrogOfWar
Germany1406 Posts
On May 31 2012 18:59 Belial88 wrote: ^ I dont know how much I agree with your comment, i find it odd you say just all-in. Zerg is behind for doing that, and toss will know you are obviously 1 basing (and thus nydusing). But maybe you are right, i dont want to say anything for sure here - so can you please use a replay to back up what you say, as per the new forum guidelines? It would be really neat if it were as simple as "if toss invests ~300+ minerals in pylons/cannons, he will autolose to a 1 base nydus all-in" Anyways... First off, you need to go pool first in ZvP, because hatch first autoloses to a strong cannon rush (granted, you may not see that until very high masters, and even then, if you have good micro, you won't lose to it until you face super strong cannon rushes maybe, although by that point you are patrolling more workers than if you had just gone 14 pool) Your 9 overlord looks over the natural, always, of course. At 16 supply, you need to pull a drone to follow the probe, and patrol the ramp or choke. There's no way around that unless you play on tournament, balanced maps with a neutral depot. If he places a suspect pylon, pull 4 drones to attack it immediately. If he makes a pylon in the open, like to block the hatch, don't worry about it, but if it's suspect, pull 4 drones. Any addditional buildings he makes, pull 4 drones per. He won't have enough money to plant more than maybe 3-4 buildings at most (and you should click on them, you want to attack cannons, not pylons). Then, with your 14-15 pool, you make lots of lings (try to pool larva as soon as you realize what's going on), and they will kill the cannons before he can make more than 15 drones can handle. If he's just better than you, you will lose, because cannon rushing does take skill, as does defending it. you need to make sure to follow around his probe and don't let him do anything cute like block in the cannon behind the mineral field where only 1 drone can hit or something (see combat-ex's youtube video on cannon rushing, as an example). But just reacting calmly, patrolling a worker at 16 and following his probe (so you need to pull 2 drones), and pulling 4 workers per building until lings pop should stop cannon rushes. Read my zvp guide, there's a good replay example of nestea holding a cannon rush. http://drop.sc/189090 Here's a good replay of me holding a cannon rush (i lose in the end to some bullshit and stupid decisions on my part, but disregard that, i was way ahead and threw away the game when the opponent was even talking about how imbalanced the match-up was because he 'knew' he lost). By putting down pylons in his base, he is not using money. yes, he gets it back with a cancel, but 4 pylons down, for example, means he can't put down a nexus. Essentially, regardless of whether you cancel a building or not, it has the same cost. A pylon put down is 100 minerals, regardless if you cancel it or not - because it's money you can't spend. Think of it this way - if you have $100 in your wallet, and your friend borrows it all today, even if he pays you back tommorow, you can't go out and buy cigarettes. Similarly, Toss can't make workers or an expansion. Meanwhile, you are spending all of your money on useful things - drones, queens, and maybe 2-4 more lings than you normally would. Sure, Toss will cancel it all later maybe and get a nexus with it, but his nexus will be super late and delayed, while your production had continued nonstop (drones, gas, lings, whatever). But you need to pull drones immediately, and you need to have your initial overlord spotting your natural, to which you promptly move it towards your third when your lings pop. (or send that overlord to his main to scout later on, and rally your ~17 overlord to the third, either one works, but one of those has to spot your third to spot for cannons possibly going up against your third). Thank you, this is very detailed and should indeed solve it. It think it's time for the Nydus idea to come in when defense fails and the cannons are up. | ||
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GhostySC2
New Zealand49 Posts
2) If a Toss doesn't wall off and places his buildings in his main instead should I start frothing at the mouth and abuse this ASAP? Should I drop my Stephano mass-roach build and go for an earlier mass-sling build or something? Thanks again | ||
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Digitalis
United States1043 Posts
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logic13
Sweden128 Posts
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Otters
Singapore7 Posts
I felt that i played rather well in both of them, but just couldnt close out the job. both games are 25min long macro games. http://drop.sc/189542 http://drop.sc/189541 | ||
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OneObsession
Germany42 Posts
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ChriseC
Germany440 Posts
i have massive problems on this map when toss get a really early 3rd base, they can defend it with much less effort than on other maps and the map design allows it to defend ur main just by defending ur natural and 3rd. due to their fast 3rd they get maxed out abit faster what makes their 3base push much more powerful, right before broodlords. i know i can make huge walls of spines, but especially on cloud kingdom theres so much space to cover for ur 4th and 5th and rush distance is relativly low on that map aswell. basetrading with mutas seemed to work best for me, but i guess its mostly cuz alot of tosses arnt that familiar with it and mess up alot what is ur overall plan on those maps? | ||
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Aelendis
Belgium892 Posts
On June 01 2012 21:42 OneObsession wrote: hey guys, how do you beat the 2 base immortal sentry push ? It has been answered the page just before :-) On June 01 2012 21:05 Cry4Me wrote: If you do it at 10, without extractor trick, you will sit on three larvae and therefor waste potential time where a new one could be spawning. The difference between 10overlord WITH extractor trick and 9overlord is slimmer. The general opinion seems to be that timings line up better with a 9overlord and you lose, what, 12.5 minerals by doing extractor trick? Might aswell use it for something else. I think you only lose 1 mineral with the 10 overlord - extractor trick, plus the mining time of the drone doing the extractor. So just go 9 overlord and you'll be fine. However, if you miss the overlord on 9 and make a drone, then just make an overlord on 10 with an extractor trick. You have to do the extractor trick, or your hatch will have 3 larvae, and when an hatch has 3 larvae, it doesn't produce anymore larvae, so it's bad. | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On June 01 2012 16:00 6xFPCs wrote: I have a suspicion that you're asking HOW to do it, as well as whether or not you can. You do it by building the units you want added, (control-clicking the eggs so that you don't have any extra larvae selected,) then pressing shift-#, where the number is the control group you want to add the eggs to. This shift-# is the way to add any selected unit to the desired control group. yea that was what I was asking and if it was possible. I just switched to Zerg from toss didn't know it was possible. Belial explained it indepth in his stream to me last night. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
 vs Michael vs PaTWah ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png) In this replay, I went fast roach against lings, felt I was up the whole game until I lost my third, then tried to roach/drone all-in and lost. I was watching his gas timings but I guess I wasn't really watching his drone count. If I go roach off 2base on close air metal against speedlings, can I securely take third? or is it a fail in build/strategy? I'm thinking if I just send some of my roaches to defend the 3rd, i'd have been fine, right? I had faster upgrades and higher drone count. | ||
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AshenCZ
Czech Republic46 Posts
I'm reading Belial's guides right now Thanks! | ||
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