EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 272
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b0rt_
Norway931 Posts
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 03 2012 03:29 Guamshin wrote: I got my build from Hyun and i believe Symbol used it aswell so it can't be bad(although i think my macro+3rd timings were a bit off). I saw the hellions too late and 1 queen was still coming from my base(not on creep) but still i'm pretty sure losing those hellions to 6 or so drones is worse because he loses map control. I think i droned a little bit too much around 13 min but since he was playing passive and (i felt this) his army was not that big. I felt like i could get enough ling/bane if he pushed at that point. Also the point where my minerals where high, thats pretty normal at that point i only had my gold base left(blocked by a creep tumor lol) and i was also almost maxed out so not that much i could have spent besides spines and more macro hatcheries. your build is fine, i didn't mean to suggest anything like that. all i meant was that the early loss of so many drones put you behind, and i was concerned that you didn't realize that and played as though you were ahead. i do think that your third timing should no longer be part of the build and should be more of a reaction to what he did, which was try and sim his whole natural--the issue is that you did not see that he went straight into defensive siege, so you kept acting as though hellions could deny your third. just because you watched a pro player put down his third at a certain time means very little without considering what map, what positions, and what opponent's strategy went into that decision. hm, not sure which part you're talking about with minerals getting stockpiled, i guess you mean the idle larvae and 2.2k part? in which case i'd say that the issue was not taking more gases fast enough, which contributed to your late tech (feeling like you don't have enough gas to tech and still have enough muta or bane). and just a quick note, i would never count on holding the gold in ZvT metal, you can take it but don't commit to a huge engagement just to hold it, go for BLs. a few stimmed marines will clear out the drones there faster than you can react. but yeah i think the real thing that lost you the game wasn't the early game damage, nor the inefficient trades, but just how you handled the lategame. you responded to drops ok, but the lack of econ and the fact that he continued to take bases uncontested meant that you were on a downward spiral once he kept you from reaching a maxed BL-infestor ball. redrone bases, put down some spores and spines to buy you response time, etc. you did that pretty well at your fifth. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
1. Anyone else facing that new zvz style? 2 base infestor (no roaches), takes third behind mass ling/infestor, fast hive while counter-attacking. There's been a few games of this in the GSL, surprisingly. Game 1 of the GSTL NSHS vs Zenex on Metro, freak vs pet. There was another one recently in the regular GSL, but it failed miserably with mass roach from the opponent, and the casters were like 'i dont understand what he's doing, what an idiot, no roaches?' but they just didn't get it (god i hate how casters never understand zvz, ever). I've been having a LOT of trouble when the ultras pop out. What I'm learning now, is that you taking your fast third as 'standard play', you just stop at like 60 drones and then just mass sooo many roaches he can't FG it. The counterattacking is killer, you just need to have like 5 banes at each base, as well as spine/spore for burrowed infestors. But I'm not really sure how to deal with the lategame ultra/infestor. By the time you reach 200/200, you might have a timing right before ultras come out, but they can delay a TON of time with those infestors. Maybe roach/hydra? I feel that gets stomped by all those FG... i feel broodlords maybe, to 'counter' the high infestor count, but the ultras are way too mobile and on certain, wide open maps, like map cloud kingdom, it's just impossible to deal with those ultras with BL. 2nd question: How do you deal with double robo immortal/sentry all-in? The attack is much later, so I'm wondering should you go with mutas, or just stick with roach/ling. Maybe you get hydras? When I've dealt with it, I trade armies but the immortals stay alive, and then he reinforces with cheap gateway and kills me. Just curious if it was macro (not enough roach/ling), or should I get hydras or maybe mutas. I feel mutas are risky, what if it's just single robo... | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 03 2012 05:12 aaaaaaaaa wrote: I cant deal with stargate play. I tried queens, spores, making mutas and everything but i ALWAYS fail. What can i do about it? They make voids and phoenix then carries and so on... i tried to break the wall and do damage but that only made him go back defend his base. I lost probably 4~5 of these stargate play in a row. League? Is this one or two stargate play? Off FFE? Give us a replay if you can. My immediate response to double SG after FFE is to start my lair if it's not already morphing, then queue queens at all other hatcheries. Evo should be down already, so I start one spore at each base , and one extra spore somewhere tactically useful (e.g. atop the cliff edge overlooking the natural on Korhal, behind the minerals at the natural on cloud, covering a cluster of tech buildings that the spore at the main won't cover). I then double check that creep connects all my bases, and send a ling to watch for his third. From there you want to get a count on how many phoenix and VR come out. If it looks worrisome (say, more than one VR with three phoenix support), keep adding spores, and start a hydra den. My rule of thumb is one more spore per base for every 2 VRs, this keeps me safe enough with queen response. When the hydra den finishes, DO NOT SPAM HYDRAS in a desperation attempt to fight (unless you're already dying or something, but you should move spores from other bases and start spores right under him first), this will occasionally result in phoenix picking off hydras a few at a time. wait for a good batch, minimum of six, and build them all at once. when they pop, be aware of where his units are and have queens ready to help the hydras. Carriers?? Hm. you should see a lull in air units attacking you, which should prompt some scouting on your part with an overseer. Should you see a fleet beacon, drop a spire ASAP and save for a bunch of corruptors. Carriers + carrier tech cost a lot and take a lot of time, so if he's not trying to take a third and is just sitting around, you should get suspicious and scout him. Keep in mind that fleet beacon can also mean early mothership, or, should he already have a lot of phoenix, the phoenix range upgrade--but the latter should only happen if you're going mutas against two stargate. Which you don't want to do. Hard to say much else without seeing a replay, since you haven't even said if it's one or two stargates, and I'm blindly assuming this is from FFE. | ||
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Mvrio
689 Posts
should I launch IT's above then raise roaches or roaches up first then IT's. the T will have instant reaction and scan immediately. they have no detect to begin with | ||
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
for me personally, maxing on roach with a few infestors, can kill the opponent. i deal with counter attack the same way as you. ling infestor will never trade well against roaches unless its at a choke, with upgrade advantage, or with spines. keep those things in mind, you are free to move you roach ball around the map if you have only just maxed, or is about to max. thus, you must deny creep and atop spines from moving forward to establish a 4th. 1 good way when youre trying to make your 4th is to put 6-8 roaches wedge between your building hatch and mineral line. if opponent do make 10+ spines ( cept for CK, TDA, Shakuras or other maps where its impossible to attack their natural with a ramp) you cant break him. stay ahead in eco as long as possible ( deny his 4th for long, also get your 3rd sooner if you scout fast lair with evo and no roaches/warren, looks like a muta build which you can also get faster third vs opponent) non stop tech, switch to 1-3 ipgrade if you are 2-2 already. you also get your ibfestor count high and mass spines once you know hive finish for opponent) tech to ultra/brood youself things to remember, ling infestor doesnt beat roach head on. avoid spines and chojes and ramps. deny 4th, standard 3 hatch roach timing(150 supply) into infestor timing(200 supply) is technically more cost efficient, deny counterattacks. get an eco lead( remember he is rushing tech and turtling). so thats the fundamental. hope to see a ZvZ guide soon? | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
2 questions: 1. Anyone else facing that new zvz style? 2 base infestor (no roaches), takes third behind mass ling/infestor, fast hive while counter-attacking. There's been a few games of this in the GSL, surprisingly. Game 1 of the GSTL NSHS vs Zenex on Metro, freak vs pet. There was another one recently in the regular GSL, but it failed miserably with mass roach from the opponent, and the casters were like 'i dont understand what he's doing, what an idiot, no roaches?' but they just didn't get it (god i hate how casters never understand zvz, ever). I've been having a LOT of trouble when the ultras pop out. What I'm learning now, is that you taking your fast third as 'standard play', you just stop at like 60 drones and then just mass sooo many roaches he can't FG it. The counterattacking is killer, you just need to have like 5 banes at each base, as well as spine/spore for burrowed infestors. But I'm not really sure how to deal with the lategame ultra/infestor. By the time you reach 200/200, you might have a timing right before ultras come out, but they can delay a TON of time with those infestors. Maybe roach/hydra? I feel that gets stomped by all those FG... i feel broodlords maybe, to 'counter' the high infestor count, but the ultras are way too mobile and on certain, wide open maps, like map cloud kingdom, it's just impossible to deal with those ultras with BL. 2nd question: How do you deal with double robo immortal/sentry all-in? The attack is much later, so I'm wondering should you go with mutas, or just stick with roach/ling. Maybe you get hydras? When I've dealt with it, I trade armies but the immortals stay alive, and then he reinforces with cheap gateway and kills me. Just curious if it was macro (not enough roach/ling), or should I get hydras or maybe mutas. I feel mutas are risky, what if it's just single robo... To deal with the zvz thing, you have to shut down the counterattacks and just go kill him. Simcity your bases like a protoss or teran would against zerg. Build a few spines flush with the hatch to deny surface area, and use evos to deny more surface area, along with a few defensive banelings, and probably a few roaches too. Consider getting +1 melee attack - it keeps your banelings awesome against his zerglings, no matter how many carapace upgrades he has. I feel like you should be able to shut down the counterattacks and just go kill his 3rd base, and his economy is in no shape to maintain his upgrades and mass ultralisks. At worst you trade 3rds and the game stays low economy. As for actually fighting against ultralisks in the late game... I don't know. I've always been an ultralisk man myself, even when going roach, I prefer ultralisks over broodlords because of their mobility. Hydras are good against ultralisks in that you can focus fire and take them down quickly, but it's not a magic solution. When facing ultralisks, I usually just make a lot more infestors and use mass infested terrans instead of fungals, it seems to work over all. Most important thing is to shut down his counterattacks (pretend you are protoss or terran for a game) and just attack him with roaches (or roach/baneling, or roach/infestor, depending on when). I'm intrigued by this style of zvz. Stephano also seems to go roach ling with double ling upgrades when his opponent plays aggressively with roaches, and I'm wondering how it works. For zvp, always go spire against double robo. Watch idra vs cruncher from NASL for example. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I've seen 2 examples recently, the recent zenexlife vs nshsfreaky, and some other game, where it seems the best 'counter' to the mass spines is nydus or dropping the ling/infestor guy. Is that what you must do? But the problem is that EVENTUALLY he'll have get enough ling/infestor to secure this third, and then he'll use mass spines afterwards to buy time for hive to stop any sort of roach max or roach/hydra or roach/infestor army. That's where I get sort of lost. He just eventually takes his third, and I do delay his third for forever and stop counter-attacks, but eventually he gets 3 bases, and ultra/infestor/ling which tears through anything I can get, I just don't know how to stop it (unless the point is to use drop/nydus to stop it, which ill try out). I don't see getting infestors of my own as a good answer, because he'll just have more infestors than I have and will FG me. Thanks. I'll watch idra vs cruncher nasl too | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
That's where I get sort of lost. He just eventually takes his third, and I do delay his third for forever and stop counter-attacks, but eventually he gets 3 bases, and ultra/infestor/ling which tears through anything I can get, I just don't know how to stop it (unless the point is to use drop/nydus to stop it, which ill try out). I don't see getting infestors of my own as a good answer, because he'll just have more infestors than I have and will FG me. He won't have more infestors than you if he had to turtle on 2 base for ages, while going hive, before getting a 3rd base. I approve of any kind of drop/nydus play, absolutely, but I don't know if it's necessary. It's a logical move against any opponent who makes 30 spinecrawlers. I used to joke that you could use uprooted spines and spores against ultralisks in zvz. Maybe try that, when fighting his maxed army. note: I haven't tried it. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I think maybe it is necessary to drop/nydus. He has mass spines, which are the reason he's staying alive, so anytime someone masses static defense, just drop/nydus. I've never seen a pro game go to where the ling/infestor guy got ultras, because the games end in the mid-game, but I think maybe the reason for that is because the roach guy knows he can't let him get ultras. | ||
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aaaaaaaaa
25 Posts
On June 03 2012 06:44 6xFPCs wrote: League? Is this one or two stargate play? Off FFE? Give us a replay if you can. My immediate response to double SG after FFE is to start my lair if it's not already morphing, then queue queens at all other hatcheries. Evo should be down already, so I start one spore at each base , and one extra spore somewhere tactically useful (e.g. atop the cliff edge overlooking the natural on Korhal, behind the minerals at the natural on cloud, covering a cluster of tech buildings that the spore at the main won't cover). I then double check that creep connects all my bases, and send a ling to watch for his third. From there you want to get a count on how many phoenix and VR come out. If it looks worrisome (say, more than one VR with three phoenix support), keep adding spores, and start a hydra den. My rule of thumb is one more spore per base for every 2 VRs, this keeps me safe enough with queen response. When the hydra den finishes, DO NOT SPAM HYDRAS in a desperation attempt to fight (unless you're already dying or something, but you should move spores from other bases and start spores right under him first), this will occasionally result in phoenix picking off hydras a few at a time. wait for a good batch, minimum of six, and build them all at once. when they pop, be aware of where his units are and have queens ready to help the hydras. Carriers?? Hm. you should see a lull in air units attacking you, which should prompt some scouting on your part with an overseer. Should you see a fleet beacon, drop a spire ASAP and save for a bunch of corruptors. Carriers + carrier tech cost a lot and take a lot of time, so if he's not trying to take a third and is just sitting around, you should get suspicious and scout him. Keep in mind that fleet beacon can also mean early mothership, or, should he already have a lot of phoenix, the phoenix range upgrade--but the latter should only happen if you're going mutas against two stargate. Which you don't want to do. Hard to say much else without seeing a replay, since you haven't even said if it's one or two stargates, and I'm blindly assuming this is from FFE. i am rank 1 gold and these stargate play often come from top 8 plat players. The last time that i lost (1~2h ago) the toss was doing FFE, 2 stargates that i scouted. I defended, tried to harass, got a huge immense economy and when i saw that he didnt had take his third i tried to attack his front but he just owned me with carries and voyds (i had some corruptors too but they where useless) | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
But if someone is going double stargate, you need to put on a bit of pressure on his air units. You don't need to bust him, but fly those corruptors into his base to hunt for his air units (dont lose them obviously to cannons, but he wont have any stalkers), spam IT in front of his base with your infestors, or do some pressure at his front with your hydras. Quite frankly, one of the biggest threats of double stargate is someone just massing voids or carriers off 2 base, because it will roll you with critical mass before you have enough (you need both corruptor/infestor to deal with critical mass voids and carriers, and you can't really afford that off 3 base). So just go kill him. Read my ZvP guide, and specifically, watch the games vs Genius that I have in the replay section. There are 2 DRG vs Genius games, but in one of them he actually does this carrier, mass air thing, and DRG shows you what you need to do. | ||
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trevaur
Canada13 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Terran will also likely pull his SCVs if he sees you float an overlord towards his mineral line as well. If you can, sure, it's great. But you are on the clock to get that hive tech in time before his push, and Terran is the one who's going to be harassing you, not the other way around. If you can manage to do that, and actually get a terran who isn't paying aattention, great, but generally you don't see it in the match-up because you are racing against the clock to get hive in time. I'm not saying you can't do it. It's just that your priorities tend to be on teching quickly, and Terran is dropping you and harassing you while you are focusing on teching quickly when you are gas and time starved. You don't really see it in any of the match-ups (except maybe zvp and when you are specifically going roach/banerain/infestor) due to the strain on gas, and how awesome broodlords out quicker are. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On June 03 2012 07:59 Belial88 wrote: ^ It gets hive only when on 3 base, not 2. But they are just spending 100% of their gas on infestors, while you are getting lots of roaches, upgrades, et cetera. If anything maybe you can end up matching his infestor count? But this ling/infestor style just gets a tonnn of infestors, you would be hard pressed to beat it. Even nshsfreaky had 21 off of 2 base, and he was still making lots more. I think maybe it is necessary to drop/nydus. He has mass spines, which are the reason he's staying alive, so anytime someone masses static defense, just drop/nydus. I've never seen a pro game go to where the ling/infestor guy got ultras, because the games end in the mid-game, but I think maybe the reason for that is because the roach guy knows he can't let him get ultras. You can: - tech faster than him while he's on 2 base, then get broods at the same time as his ultras. - never let him get ultras (never ending attacks with upgraded roaches, add on infestors later, banes/spine cim city to defend counters) - drop/nydus vs ultras Personally, I don't like the Ling Infestor ZvZ. Roaches are just too good. It works very well in low masters and below though. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On June 03 2012 09:02 trevaur wrote: I have a question regarding the late game vs Terran. Has anyone tried getting OL drops and just loading up 4 banelings to drop on mineral lines of Terran expos? It seems like if you go for an Infestor midgame then there won't be any missle turrets, and frequently a Terran will just rely on PF's to stop runbys, thus leaving you open to carpet bomb their mineral lines. Also, +3 attack banelings 1 shot SCVs and 2 shot MULEs, so this seems like a pretty good way to deny resources from a Terran player. Any thoughts? Err... no, I wouldn't ever really do this. Earlier on, 200 gas + whatever gas you invest into banes is too much, since you're rushing Hive, 3/3 ups, adrenal glands, and ultras or broods. Later on, if it's like a 6 base vs 4-5 base standstill, you never want to kill Terrans workers for him. It lets his army get bigger. More people need to do baneling drops in ZvP though. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
You can: - tech faster than him while he's on 2 base, then get broods at the same time as his ultras. - never let him get ultras (never ending attacks with upgraded roaches, add on infestors later, banes/spine cim city to defend counters) - drop/nydus vs ultras Personally, I don't like the Ling Infestor ZvZ. Roaches are just too good. It works very well in low masters and below though. Hm well, so I shouldnt make any roaches at all and rush broods? I feel like on certain maps, like cloud kingdom, maybe ohana when its 3+ base, you get owned by their mobilty. Maybe I should do the exact same thing as him! When I identify what he's doing, don't make any more roaches, just go ling/infestor myself, except with the quick 3 base start, and then go ultras much faster. Eh? NSHSFreaky is doing it, and I'm seeing some pro zergs try to pull it off in the GSL (plus I run into it quite a bit on ladder), some better than others, but no one has made it get to the hive tech stage, either because they win with ling counterattacks and infestor harass, or mass roach kills them. I do think there is that critical timing they are vulnerable when trying to take their third, but you have to cut drones to do that. Which maybe is the right response... but i don't know, you can't always guarantee that you are in that position in the game (like maybe you opened mutas?), to have taken a fast third and all... like, do you just always lose if the ling/infestor guy is able to get 3 bases (and thus get his hive, and then ultras)? http://www.twitch.tv/belial88/b/319994833 At 2:20:52 (2 hours 20 minutes in). I was streaming at the time, so you don't have to download a replay, you can watch a VOD. But here's the replay too. http://drop.sc/190366 | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On June 03 2012 09:52 Belial88 wrote: Hm well, so I shouldnt make any roaches at all and rush broods? I feel like on certain maps, like cloud kingdom, maybe ohana when its 3+ base, you get owned by their mobilty. Maybe I should do the exact same thing as him! When I identify what he's doing, don't make any more roaches, just go ling/infestor myself, except with the quick 3 base start, and then go ultras much faster. Eh? NSHSFreaky is doing it, and I'm seeing some pro zergs try to pull it off in the GSL (plus I run into it quite a bit on ladder), some better than others, but no one has made it get to the hive tech stage, either because they win with ling counterattacks and infestor harass, or mass roach kills them. I do think there is that critical timing they are vulnerable when trying to take their third, but you have to cut drones to do that. Which maybe is the right response... but i don't know, you can't always guarantee that you are in that position in the game (like maybe you opened mutas?), to have taken a fast third and all... like, do you just always lose if the ling/infestor guy is able to get 3 bases (and thus get his hive, and then ultras)? http://www.twitch.tv/belial88/b/319994833 At 2:20:52 (2 hours 20 minutes in). I was streaming at the time, so you don't have to download a replay, you can watch a VOD. But here's the replay too. http://drop.sc/190366 Watching replay now. In answer to your earlier response, the thing with trying to do the exact same thing as him is that you're probably going to be behind in attack upgrades. But it shouldn't matter, since you'd have SO many more ultras than him and faster than him. It should work theoretically though. Like once you recognize it's pure ling/festor, start getting atk ups, throw down a pit, take a 4th, and tech to hive. Then max as fast as possible with Ultra/roach/infestor, and re-inforce with roaches. I would test it with you but my computer is still getting repaired, and this laptop can't run SC2 =( EDIT: Got done watching game. You just kept letting him catch up the entire game because of your inability to realize when to attack. You seem very macro oriented, which is good, but it bites you back a lot in the styles you have trouble with (muta, ling/festor) since you HAVE to be aggressive if your opponent decides to cut corners. Let's look at the point in the game where you had about 10 roaches or so, and your third was just about done, you had banes there morphed. Your opponent tried to use a bunch of lings to kill your third, and was forced to back away in fear of baneling hits. What you did from there was drone up your third, and allow your opponent to get a third, 2/2 ups, AND infestors without any sort of punishment. You then had a slow 4th, and just... couldn't attack because of the nature of Shakuras (he has infestors, you don't, attacking on Shakuras is very one dimensional so it favors the infestor player). What you SHOULD have done was while fending off his ling harass, click on one of his lings. You would have seen 1/1 upgrades. That should set of a bell in your head that infestors are coming. Now what do you do against infestors? Either attack before they come out, or out expand the infestor player while catching up in tech. You did neither. Personally, since I'm aggressive as hell lately in all match ups, I would have clicked on a ling, seen 1/1, made a round of drones for my third (maybe like 8), then switched to mass unit production. Roaches lings and banes. He cannot defend that before his infestors are out, and you would have killed his third, or at least forced a cancel. Then you can get infestors of your own and attack again, or fast tech to Hive. Your Hive was too slow. Much too slow. You know ling infestor means fast hive, you have to get one yourself and rush broods. Trying to catch up in the infestor count was useless and a waste of gas. Your spines were also too late. You knew he would have ultras, you needed faster spines to hold off his attack a bit longer since you went for broods instead of ultras. Ling/Infestor builds are all about figuring out which corners you can cut. Your opponent basically cut every corner in the book, and you can do that a lot in ZvT, but you should never let it happen in ZvZ due to the nature of zerg. Zerg punishes very easily with how fast you can make units. Exploit that. It's like the same principle with when an opponent goes mutas. When I see mutas I didn't expect, I think, hmm I can sit here and try to throw up spores everywhere and kill my econ, OR I can make a ton of speedroaches/lings, go kill his third, and force his mutas back while I get hydras or infestors or more queens. Or like when Stephano played against... I forget which protoss at the red bull lan, the toss went dual SG and stephano is just like... well time to go make units and kill you, and didn't even bother with anti air, and the toss had cut corners and not made any defensive sentries. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
Just wondered if anyone knew of any good guides or a good source of replays for how to play against gate expanding protoss'. | ||
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Marnee
United Kingdom8 Posts
Thanks for reading! http://www.mediafire.com/?f2se541d510vm95 | ||
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