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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On May 30 2012 10:46 Hemingway wrote:
Whenever I play infestors in ZvT I always float an insane amount of minerals on 3 bases plus a macro hatch. Is this normal or does my marco suck? I rarely float resources before I max in ZvP and used to have no trouble when I played mutas ZvT but for some reason I struggle now.
With ling/infestor it depends when you are floating minerals. Odds are you are missing injects or something to allow your money to get that high, but this is assuming this is early-midish game. You will normally start floating minerals but it shouldn't be for awhile (depending how much you are floating).
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On May 30 2012 10:50 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 10:46 Hemingway wrote:
Whenever I play infestors in ZvT I always float an insane amount of minerals on 3 bases plus a macro hatch. Is this normal or does my marco suck? I rarely float resources before I max in ZvP and used to have no trouble when I played mutas ZvT but for some reason I struggle now. With ling/infestor it depends when you are floating minerals. Odds are you are missing injects or something to allow your money to get that high, but this is assuming this is early-midish game. You will normally start floating minerals but it shouldn't be for awhile (depending how much you are floating).
No I made sure I wasn't missing injects in replays. It ends up being around 100 supply or so and I've been watching lots of replays and even Stephano usually ends up floating 1k+ in minerals by that time.
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No I made sure I wasn't missing injects in replays. It ends up being around 100 supply or so and I've been watching lots of replays and even Stephano usually ends up floating 1k+ in minerals by that time.
If that is the case, then there's no reason why you shouldn't add a second macro hatch for that strategy. Just because the pros don't do it doesn't exactly mean it's wrong. That is, if all injects and macro in general is going well.
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Post a replay. Unless you are masters I seriously doubt there aren't huge deficiencies in your injects and macro (I have serious deficiencies in my macro, as do my ladder opponents, and im 900 pts masters).
And in general, you get a macro hatch on 2 base when going lings, and a macro hatch on 3 base when going roaches. You basically need a 4th hatchery by 65 supply, unless you are going roaches (which you can delay it a little longer) or teching super hard.
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On May 30 2012 12:08 Hemingway wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 10:50 blade55555 wrote:On May 30 2012 10:46 Hemingway wrote:
Whenever I play infestors in ZvT I always float an insane amount of minerals on 3 bases plus a macro hatch. Is this normal or does my marco suck? I rarely float resources before I max in ZvP and used to have no trouble when I played mutas ZvT but for some reason I struggle now. With ling/infestor it depends when you are floating minerals. Odds are you are missing injects or something to allow your money to get that high, but this is assuming this is early-midish game. You will normally start floating minerals but it shouldn't be for awhile (depending how much you are floating). No I made sure I wasn't missing injects in replays. It ends up being around 100 supply or so and I've been watching lots of replays and even Stephano usually ends up floating 1k+ in minerals by that time.
Well, continue to work on injecting better (nobody's perfect) and take your 4th base earlier. This puts you on the map, out of your base and you'll be fighting more and trading more and you'll be making more lings and it'll be harder to keep up. When you spread out you'll also need to start putting some static defense in some of your bases, which uses a few more minerals.
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On May 30 2012 04:50 aaaaaaaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 04:39 HighLach wrote:On May 30 2012 04:34 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
How can i deal with 2 gate push? And how can i scout that without killing one overlord? Thanks! You really need to include more information. Was it a proxy 2gate? Was it part of a FFE? Was in a 1 base play? Is he building stalkers, or is he building zealots? There is a huge variety which could make it difficult to answer accurately if we don't have a replay. It was FFE, i defended the first push and when i was going to attack with roaches and hydras he had a carrier that crush my army 
On May 30 2012 05:22 Belial88 wrote:
^ you can still send in an overlord, your initial overlord should be going to his natural anyways (to spot his gas count, but also check his wall). This overlord should exactly see if he makes a 2nd gate instead of a core at his wall-in.
He can't kill your overlord for a long time. Just keep the overlord out of range of a cannon (even if it's range, it will usually move out in time before a cannon kills it), and if you see him make 2 gates instead of gate/core, that should tell you all you need to know.
It's extremely easy to deal with. You can put up a spine, you can use a 6:30 roach warren, or you can just make an earlier gas and use speedlings. He'll have like 4-6 zealots at the same time as a 4 gate +1, except with no reinforcements.
Having a ling out front of his base or at the watch towers would have told you enough too, you would have seen the move-out, and reactively made a spine and lots of lings.
Just to add on to what belial said, you really can keep your overlord in his base for the longest time. When a protoss fast expands, he sacrafices early game units for cannons and economy. He literally cant have a stalker out for a long time.
The whole carrier deal is only a scouting problem. Use overseers, speed overlords, changelings, speedling runbys, etc...
You should have some image of what builds he could be going.
IMO, 2 gate pretty much blows if scouted. If it's FFE, they almost auto-lose if you get speedlings ASAP. The key is to just counter-attack him with speedlings. 1 of 2 things will happen. He will keep his units back to defend the counter, in which case you just macro ( be careful if he builds up ), and in the case case, he will just go for your base, then you just chew his wall down and kill him; you can set up spines at home too if he commits.
Or you could just build spines and continue to macro.
If he builds proxy gates, its even easier because he has no defense at home. You don't even need to send all your lings. If you don't see anything at his main, think CANNON RUSH or PROXY GATES.
If it's 1 base, you wont be able to do anything but defend.
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On May 30 2012 12:57 Caloreen wrote:Show nested quote +No I made sure I wasn't missing injects in replays. It ends up being around 100 supply or so and I've been watching lots of replays and even Stephano usually ends up floating 1k+ in minerals by that time. If that is the case, then there's no reason why you shouldn't add a second macro hatch for that strategy. Just because the pros don't do it doesn't exactly mean it's wrong. That is, if all injects and macro in general is going well.
Actually, when stephano does this build, you will see him add on 2 macro hatches more often than not. He does it in ZvP also. Ling heavy styles rely on lots of hatches because lings are larvae inefficient.
This doesn't mean he is adding on more queens though, he usually sticks with 3.
For worse players, it is usually just a safety net. It allows you to miss injects and still be efficient at the cost of +300 minerals.
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2nd time asking this:
ZvT both diamonds. http://drop.sc/188408
Pretty standard game i went hatch first with the 4 queen build, he went some sort of really safe hellion expand that you don't see alot anymore. Up untill around 20 minutes in the game i felt that i was playing pretty decent but then when i was being aggressive the battles didn't go well at all( i had a short timing where i could have killed him) and eventually he came out ahead, took his 3rd base and i decided to go infestor brood lord, but my army never really became big because of somehow lacking gas(blocked my gold base with creep tumor T_T) he also abused my immobile army and my engagements were bad too, i just couldn't get enough units. GG
Now those are my thoughts, but im not sure if i should have stopped using muta ling bane after all i didn't have enough gas? should i have continued to just max out and attack? I also felt i had too many mutas and too little lings/banes. I find it hard too see the crucial mistakes other then the ones i've already mentioned
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What's the best way to punish a failed bunker rush? I just played against a random in Plat who bunkered me and failed. I proceeded to macro up (took my third rather than a macro as my third hatch) and easily crushed him by the 15 minute mark or so. Is there a faster way to do this, or am I forced to play a full macro game?
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Russian Federation81 Posts
Platinum zerg here, ex-diamond after a 6 months break. My question is about ZvZ. Since I came back about a month ago, I've been opening 14/14. But always being a macro-oriented player, and seeing a lot of people go hatch first against me I decided to give it a go. First game, Taldarim, I get 6 pooled with a spine in my base, and lose horribly. His pool was ready before I started mine. So my question is, is it at all possible to defend 6/7/8 pools with a spine in your base while only having 14-15 drones, and if so, what micro guidelines should I follow?
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On May 31 2012 02:40 Atthasit wrote:
Platinum zerg here, ex-diamond after a 6 months break. My question is about ZvZ. Since I came back about a month ago, I've been opening 14/14. But always being a macro-oriented player, and seeing a lot of people go hatch first against me I decided to give it a go. First game, Taldarim, I get 6 pooled with a spine in my base, and lose horribly. His pool was ready before I started mine. So my question is, is it at all possible to defend 6/7/8 pools with a spine in your base while only having 14-15 drones, and if so, what micro guidelines should I follow?
Defending 6pool with a 15 hatch is tricky, but it's do-able.
Once you identify the 6pool build (pool half-3/4 complete, very few drones, lings streaming across the map, etc) you need to cancel your hatch and put down a pool ASAP.
Follow this guide for the rest: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295586
On May 31 2012 02:34 Hemingway wrote:
What's the best way to punish a failed bunker rush? I just played against a random in Plat who bunkered me and failed. I proceeded to macro up (took my third rather than a macro as my third hatch) and easily crushed him by the 15 minute mark or so. Is there a faster way to do this, or am I forced to play a full macro game?
What you did was perfectly acceptable. Economy should be even due to mules, but your lings buy you map control and you have a free pass to drone. You could always make a bunch of lings, roaches, or banelings and attempt a bust, but a diligent terran will have sufficient defense. You should, however, scout him to know if he's expanding or some other 1 base shenanigan build.
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What is a good response to the +2 blink/immortal all-in and similar styles (other stalker/immortal heavy pushes)? I'm still not comfortable on the timing of this push, so I tend to over commit to units too early, but I also don't know what the best unit composition is. Is it heavy ling with some roaches? I don't want to go for fast infestors unless I'm sure I have time to get them out before the push hits. Thoughts?
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so if you go hatch first (i'm going 15h 15p 15g) in zvz, what should i be doing in response to a 14/14 or normal pool first build to not die?
I've been trying things like 2 queens ramp block, spine+queen, and I can't really decide nor get consistent results. link me to another post if it's already been answered
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When facing a terran whos going hellion expand, when should I get my 3rd approx?
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What's the best way to punish a failed bunker rush? I just played against a random in Plat who bunkered me and failed. I proceeded to macro up (took my third rather than a macro as my third hatch) and easily crushed him by the 15 minute mark or so. Is there a faster way to do this, or am I forced to play a full macro game?
In all 3 match-ups, you generally have to get broodlords before you can end the game in a safe, confident manner. Attacking anytime before that is either a coinflip, or taking advantage of a timing you know for certain exists (eg Toss taking a fast third after opening stargate on dual sight, so you know he won't have many sentries/immortals on a map where roach pressure is just about impossible to stop if you try to take a third).
To paraphrase AtNDarkforce in this thread, 'you have to accept that anytime you attack with zerg before 70 drones is somewhat all-in'.
There are a million ways to pressure an opponent who you are 'ahead' of, and take advantage of them, but these require an intimate understanding of the game, and completely rely on the choices both you and him have made up to the point you would decide to branch off from anything other than standard play.
Everything everyone does against you in a game, is an opportunity to get behind, or get ahead, with. So if Terran does a 2 rax, or Toss does a 4 gate, or Toss opens stargate, or Zerg goes mutas, it's a unique opportunity for you to get ahead, or fall behind on. If Terran does 2 rax into cloak banshee, it's not "how to deal with 2 rax into cloak banshee", it's "how to deal with 2 rax" and "how to deal with cloak?".
So if Terran does a 2 rax, and you hold it off, it really depends how well the 'scale' tipped in your favor. If it's as favorable as him throwing down 3+ bunkers, not finishing any of them, and you not losing a single worker while he loses 5 from a 11/11 opening that already cut 5 workers, you are pretty much guaranteed to end the game with a roach/baneling bust. If it's just that you came out alive, a baneling bust can be strong, but not if he goes factory tech and does the 'counter' to it.
So an example of a smart decision would be "Okay, I see Terran expanded after the proxy 11/11 rax, and then threw down 2 rax to wall the front of his natural, indicating bio into stim play on 2 base - a baneling bust would be really strong here, because it's already super strong if terran goes expand into 4 rax, but with the lead I have, it will be really strong"
An example of a bad decision would be "Okay, I held a 2 rax, and Terran expanded, but he's denying scouting with a single bunker at his natural, so I have no idea if he's going factory tech or not, so I'm going to baneling bust because I'm slightly ahead".
Of course, the safest decision is just to macro up and play standard, and cut corners accordingly. You can't be stupid, but if Terran failed a 2 rax and is now behind 5 workers at the start of the game, drone up to 10 more supply than you normally do before making units, or take the third instead of a macro hatch. Terran won't be so far behind though, that a marine/marauder stim 2 base all-in won't kill you if you totally drone up 3 bases to 75 drones though.
Here's the best advice I can give you: the best way to materialize a lead you've gotten, is to tech quicker. Of course, drones come first, so by no means am I saying start lair immediately. What I'm saying is, if you normally go 3 hatch, macro hatch, lair started, 60 drones, then get units in ZvT, get a 2nd evolution chamber when you normally don't, get a baneling nest when you normally don't, get a spire and your normal count of mutas but throw down that infestation pit a lot earlier than you normally do.
It's hard to really tell you what to do, but with time you should understand. You need to understand that the purpose of this game is to take more bases, and deny your opponent bases, at it's core, and you need to think of the game as a 'scale', and know when it's in your favor, when it's in his favor. This should help you make decisions in knowing how to best cut corners, but really, the most stable thing you can do is just play completely standard. If the opponent is behind, he's behind, and if you play standard, all the 'standard' stuff you do will just be really, really hard for him to deal with, instead of just normally hard - often times, these 'standard' things you do, will just win the game when you exploit a hole due to him trying to cut corners to make up for him being behind, or you simply crush him with a force he can't keep up with as he falls further and further behind. That 200/200 ling/bane/20+ mutas will be much harder for him to deal with, the broodlords will hit him when he's not prepared, et cetera, his third will be late because your army is too big and by the time he takes it, you will be maxed out and he'll have a hell of a hard time defending, et cetera.
Also, when ahead, it's a good time to make sure the opponent can't do anything to catch back up. It's generally a great time when you've just taken a lead, to do things like spread overlords, put up static defense to prevent cloaked unit harass and drops, et cetera.
But yea, welcome to zerg. According to sc2gears, the average game lengths I have are:
ZvZ: 16:39
ZvP: 21:48
ZvT: 18:16
If you want to play a race where you can win games without coinflipping in the early or midgame, play T/P. Zerg is the race that no matter what happens, you need to get hive tech and broodlord/infestor and 3+ bases before you can really solidly win games. Anything less than that is slightly all-in, and why would you do that if you have a lead?
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Platinum zerg here, ex-diamond after a 6 months break. My question is about ZvZ. Since I came back about a month ago, I've been opening 14/14. But always being a macro-oriented player, and seeing a lot of people go hatch first against me I decided to give it a go. First game, Taldarim, I get 6 pooled with a spine in my base, and lose horribly. His pool was ready before I started mine. So my question is, is it at all possible to defend 6/7/8 pools with a spine in your base while only having 14-15 drones, and if so, what micro guidelines should I follow?
Don't hatch first on TDA, you can't block the ramp. All-ins are hard as hell to defend, and while you can do a hatch first roach or hatch first baneling, you will get owned hardcore by 14/14/21 players who just drone hardcore while you blindly have to make units to survive any possible attack, and then you are just far behind.
Your initial overlord should always be on the edge of your creep, opposite of your mineral field or near the ramp, so spot for spines.
15 drones will beat 8 lings in a fight though, with an a-move. Pull 4 drones to attack a morphing spine, just a-move the rest while you morph lings to come in. If he pulls every drone, you need to base trade (works best if you drone scouted and plant your last building, a spinecrawler that can survive off creep and kill lings, but an extractor can work too as long as you get at least 4 lings out).
Also, did you not search at all and see my guide on this?
so if you go hatch first (i'm going 15h 15p 15g) in zvz, what should i be doing in response to a 14/14 or normal pool first build to not die?
I've been trying things like 2 queens ramp block, spine+queen, and I can't really decide nor get consistent results. link me to another post if it's already been answered
Why would you pressure when you are ahead? Just drone hard, while playing safe, and maintain your economic lead. Don't throw it away... that's like saying "I went hatch first against a terran who expanded, how should I punish him??!?!". No. Just maintain your lead, play safe.
15 hatch is very safe, extremely safe (except on maps like TDA with no ramp). Get 2 queens and a spine and 2-6 initial lings to meet his 2-6 initial lings. Only inject with 1 queen if he expands until your baneling nest pops, and don't inject at all if he has no expansion. Drone hard, regardless of what the opponent is doing, because your defensive strength is your transfuses. You will get speed, then baneling nest. Any baneling timing will be owned by 2 queen ramp block with transfuse, if he expanded he won't have enough to bust a single transfuse 2 queen ramp block + spine, and if he tries to just wait a while and then attack with mass banes, you will have your 4 banelings in time.
Once you have 4 banelings, just drone hardcore to ~40, get evo and +1, then ~50 roach warren, 2nd evo, gas, and scout to make sure no roach/ling all-in is coming (ie confirm no roaches made before 50 supply, that he took more than 1 gas, that he is making lair or third himself, that he actually has a similar number of drones that you have in his natural with your overlord spotting his natural mineral line), so you can take your third with a few defensive banelings. Then from there, you can do whatever you want, and need to react to what your opponent is doing.
Hatch First is actually considered the aggressive build in regards to hatch first vs 14/14, this is because if the 14/14 player expands, the hatch first guy can just pump so many lings that the 14/14 player will die due to less production and larva. Thus, the 14/14 player will actually have to be defensive and get his own banes. Once you have 4 defensive banes, there isn't really anything anyone can do to you until about 60+ supply.
I'll try to find a replay, I poured through my replays for this season and couldnt find a perfect replay (im sure it's happened, but sc2gears doesn't exactly tell you 'hey this happened', i just looked for games where i clearly went hatch first vs 14/14, he made lots of lings, and the game ended early).:
http://drop.sc/188968
It's not a perfect game at all, nor a perfect example, but you get the principle, and you can see what I do in this game. I just re-watched it, can't tell if I wasn't paying attention to minimap or what, but you see that I double-queen block for the beginning, and then morph 4 banes and let the queens back to their jobs, and that's when he hits. That was really stupid of me to do, you can't un-move the queens until the bane have actually hatched, but i still easily hold his all-in, and you can tell if I had the 2 queens blocking the ramp instead, they would have transfused that spine so it would have never gone down, and I would have had a much, much easier time holding. The idea here though is you understand how the timings work out - that 2 queens + spine + transfuse keeps you safe early on, and banes keep you safe later on, but because of the double queen block, you can mass drones hardcore no matter what the opponent is doing (and similarly, you can pump mass lings behind 2 queens blocking the ramp and then go overwhelm the opponent with pure ling if he has no banelings or poor micro).
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Russian Federation81 Posts
Servius_Fulvius
Thanks for the tip and pointing out Belial's guide!
Belial88
Guess I wasn't expecting there'd be such a comprehensive guide on this. On a side note, your ZvT and especially ZvP (and now the early pool) guides are helping me out tremendously, huge kudos to you for them.
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OK, i have a ZvZ question. I've always known that speedling expand (14gas 14pool) expands at 21, which means making 2 ling and 1 queen when pool finishes, then 2 drones to get optimal saturation in main, then expand at 3:50-3:55 approx (if you took drones off of gas). I've also always known that if a player tries to make a baneling nest before the expo, it is delayed to 4:05-4:10 approx (if he made those 2 extra drones). But i've been wondering, is it the right decision to make those 2 extra drones before the hatch?
I, for example, open 15 pool 15 gas, make a 15 overlord, wait for pool and make 2 sets of lings and a queen, then 2 drones and hatch, it's nearly the same as 14 14 if you think about it. After this i do a 5:50 - 6:00 attack with speedlings, and i was wondering if making the hatch before the 2 drones could give me more larva to make my attack stronger, for example
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Hello there,
I'm having a really simple problem against tosses pressuring the 3rd with a bunch of zealots.
The point is, ok, i know if he is going to pressure my 3rd when he is going out of his base with a probe.
But when the opponent is not an idiot, he comes out with a zealot to kill my gling in front of his base. So that i cant know if he is going to pressure my base.
How would you do to know if he is going to push with a bunch of zealots or not ?
Thanks !
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This is probably a noob question, but I would appreciate some insight. Also did some searching but didn't find anything specific.
The issue: It seems to me that forge expand openings give the protoss an opportunity to go for heavy macro and at the same time do a cheesy early attack with cannons. As zerg, how am I not screwed when toss puts a pylon plus cannon in my natural? By investing 250 minerals he delays my expansion a lot and forces me to make quite a lot of units. It takes 8 lings to take down a cannon I believe. Roaches would delay my economy even more. Meanwhile, he can safely cannon up at home not worrying about the cost too much because he's a 2 base toss vs. a 1 base zerg.
What am I missing? How do I not get far behind when this happens? Why don't fe'ing protosses do this every game?
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EPT
