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On May 29 2012 08:57 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 04:57 romelako wrote:On May 29 2012 03:03 DeaDHazza wrote:Hello, I have a huge problem with mech. I've asked people time and time again "How do I beat mech as Zerg?" and they simply reply "mass broodlord or mass roach". Well, I've tried that, and every time a terran goes mech I lose. I've tried every unit composition but every time my army just evaporates... I have the replay of the game that I'm particularly frustrated with, if you want to look at it and help me with things I could have improved on please watch it. http://drop.sc/187582I don't understand what went wrong; I had more bases than him, I harassed loads with nyduses, I went mass roach and mass brood, I even ran out of minerals at the end even though I had way more workers than him, but still, his army was huge. I'm currently rank 3 in diamond if you wanted to know. I hope you can help me, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks, DeaDHazza (Sorry about the small bit of bm at the end of the game, I had lost to the exact same thing the previous game and I was in a state of anger.) notes on your game: • 8:30 you send a scout in and it just hovers over the starport. if you went down a little farther, you could've seen the 2 factories and drop your roach warren sooner. • 9:55 your making only zerglings and your opponent has BFH. he's countering your composition. • 13:30 you have 55 to his 66 workers...you wasted so much larva on lings that should've been roaches MUCH SOONER. this is a result of poor scouting and going with the metagame. you should be sitting on around 70 drones with a fourth base coming. • 15:03 terran establishes his 3rd, you don't even have a fourth. even bfh cannot deny your fourth base in the top left corner, so why aren't you taking it? • 18:53 your first attempt at an engagement goes terrible. you lose all of those lings in an instant. those lings should've been drones and the leftover larva should've been pure roach. what are you doing with zerglings against that many bfh? at least morph them into banelings. • 19:28 fourth BARELY established and has no mining. games over. terran has a better economy than you...it wasn't mech that beat you--it was his economy. 72 to 57 workers in the terrans favor. Mech isn't your problem, it's managing your economy. I can guarantee you, you could've beaten him if you had 70 drones when you had your 3 bases and just made mass roach. Infestors aren't very good until later on when vikings come into the picture. Just make pure roach on a GOOD economy and you can win. Here's a replay as an example. I utilize multi-pronged aggression to take out his greedy double expansion. Pure roach can beat this easily if you've got the economy for it. Replay: http://drop.sc/187830 Just watched your replay. Thanks for uploading. Is there a reason you go +2 armor and +1 weapons? Is that better when you know your facing mech?
That was a mistake on my end. I just forgot to get the +2 because I was really focused on hitting injects and continuing to pile on the pressure. Don't forget the +2 attack like I did, it's super important! When you get the attack upgrade, you kill things in a few hits faster which is very significant because the faster you kill things, the less damage you take.
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In regards to the discussion about Triple Stargate...
I didn't respond right away because my thread DEEPLY details both double and triple stargate, in the "Identifying the Build" and "How to React" sections.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038
Yes, Toss can support up to 3 stargates on 2 base from a FFE. However, triple stargate is delayed by 1-2 minutes. Considering that double starport hits at ~10:00, a triple stargate hitting at ~12:00 means that the spire/hydra den/infestation pit is done already (or, you are maxed on roaches and win the base trade). It's not a very good all-in, unless your macro is sub-par.
You just need to react the same as you would against a double stargate. I go in-depth in the guide about both double and triple - there are differences between the 2 builds, but as long as you scout properly (see 2 quick gas and an empty base and a lack of gateway units at the front, or even get your overseer in his empty base that means he's obviously hiding whatever can be hidden in 1-2 buildings with 800+ gas), you will handle it just fine with your spores and queens, and if you assume it's a double stargate and it's actually triple, it will be much easier to deal with.
i have trouble with mech
Read my zvt guide, it has all the answers, vods, and replays to answer you easily.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023
whats better 14h/16p or 15h/16p and why?
According to the 2 year old Zerg openers thread, 14h/15p is better than any other opener. However, the guide is outdated, the OP was banned, and I don't think they tested 15/15. I did some testing 2 days ago, and 15/15 is actually better than 14/15 (i had used 14/15 for a year up until yesterday because of that thread), by about 60 minerals at the 7:00 mark.
As for your pool timing, the later you make it, the better off you are. You can confidently and safely go Hatch First/16p against 2 rax 11/11 proxy all-ins, quite comfortably and hold it if the same as if you went Hatch/15p. Going 17 pool is pushing the limits, you can still hold it, but it's up to you, as you are pushing the comfort zones.
I would recommend you go at least 15hatch/16pool, and practice on your own in trying to eventually be able to go with 15h/17p. Also, if you 13 drone scout, your drone will arrive in their base by the time you can choose between 16p or 17p depending on if it's a 2 rax opening or 1 rax.
Hey guys,
out of the map pool, which one would you consider muta maps and which ones more infestor-favored? (regardless of the MU in first place) would like to hear some of your experiences regarding these two styles considering the season 7 mappool. ive vetoed antiga, entombed and TDA btw.
cheers bros and thx in advance
joey
What makes a map good for mutas, is bad for infestors, and vice versa. Good choices on your vetoes, definitely veto those BS maps (that only leaves korhal and shakuras in zvt! as bs).
Good for Mutas
- Further away third/harder to take third - this makes muta aggression easier to pull off, and counterattacking stronger with ling/bane/muta. Your army is mobile, T/P/roach/infestor is not - your army is better equipped to deal with counterattacks, and counterattack. The key here is that the expo is harder for the opponent to take - if the opponent can take a free third, muta play is a lot harder to pull off
- Lots of airspace - lets you use mutas more, forces more turrets
- Multiple attack routes - counterattacking
- Longer rush distance - makes counterattacking stronger, as you can return home in time after doing damage to his bases, and your army is generally weaker in a straight up fight
Good for Infestors
- Closer/Easier to take third - while it sucks that the opponent can take an easy third, this means you can handle drops/air harass much easier with a ground based army. The less distance between bases, the easier to deal with multiple drops
- Less airspace - air harass and drops have a harder time against you
- Single attack route - this allows you to mass spines for much cheaper, as well as spread creep
- shorter rush distance - not necessarily great, but you are turtling on spines, so it's more like infestor play is possible because you are just turtling, while muta play isn't.
- Hard to take fourth - It's more like muta play isn't good if you can't take a fourth, but with infestor play you are trying to push a strong tech advantage off 3 base to secure your fourth, and deny the opponent's
So generally zerg unfavored maps like antiga, entombed, are better for infestors. Personally, I feel that infestor play isn't that great, but there are a lot of maps recently where muta play simply isn't viable (cloud kingdom's lack of airspace and chokes everywhere, entombed's free third for T/P, antiga's lack of airspace and impossible 4th).
That was a mistake on my end. I just forgot to get the +2 because I was really focused on hitting injects and continuing to pile on the pressure. Don't forget the +2 attack like I did, it's super important! When you get the attack upgrade, you kill things in a few hits faster which is very significant because the faster you kill things, the less damage you take.
It also means your tech is considerably delayed, and unlike 'standard' marine/tank play, mech has an extremely hard time once zerg gets broodlords out (hellions, tanks, and anything less than 10+ thors, are useless against broodlords).
+1 carapace is very useful against mech - it makes you survive one more shot against +0 tanks and thors with roaches (and lings vs tanks). But that's really it - even +3 carapace means you die in the same number of shots to +1 tanks and thors as you would if you had +0 carapace.
Attack upgrades are okay, but you really want to focus on getting your hive much quicker, and going for melee, not ranged, upgrades, so your broodlords are stronger (melee helps damage on broodlords, due to broodlings, much more than air attack). The only time you go for attack upgrades, is if you plan to do strong roach aggression or roach/infestor aggression (like if Terran plans to do a 2 base mass mech attack and isn't grabbing his third - which should be obvious with an overseer seeing no third, no third taken in reasonable time, or lots of tanks made and no thors being made, which indicates a strong 2 base mech all-in where he will push with mass hellion/tank and push out finally with just 2-3 thors and a bunch of SCVs). But remember, if you don't get broodlords soon enough against a 3+ base mech player, you will lose (similarly, if you go for hive against a 2 base mech all-inner, you willl lose).
I'd say a good middle-ground against mech, is get infestors on 3 base, take your fourth asap (if you didn't already double expand), and max out on roach/infestor. You can handle 2 base pushes, and tech up quickly once you confirm a third.
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United States8476 Posts
Shakuras is actually known as a good muta map. Mutas can bounce between the third and main very easily in addition to there being a lot of free space to fly around on the map. Infestor based play also has an incredibly hard time dealing with tanks on the cliffs in the middle of this map. Stephano most notably used to regularly use muta play on this map and this map alone.
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^ I said shakuras as unfavored in general for zerg, and only in zvt. I did say that part about it being good about infestors though, that was a mistake on my part. I'll edit that, but shakuras is good for both types of play (lots of airspace good for mutas bad for infestors, singular attack route for mass spines good for infestors bad for mutas, farther away third good for mutas bad for infestors, multiple bases accessed in the same path good for infestors but bad for mutas).
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Hi I just did some practice in ZvT I recently just switched to zerg about 2 weeks ago currently bronze. My opponent was gold. This is first time I played against mech to late game I didnt know what build he was going. Just been reading Belial's thread.
This is the loss I havent played since season 2 I was diamond toss season 1 and 2. Havent played until 2 weeks ago. So I know my macro was bad both games and the loss I expanded the wrong way. So if anyone minds looking at it to tell me if I handled it properly especially the loss. He sniped my bane nest and I never rebuilt it so it kinda ended up just stuck in my base for a while then eventually he over ran me. In the win I traded armies with him to keep thor count low. I probably should have saced another ovie to get more info. Remember I'm bronze so give it to me straight up  any criticism is welcome.
The loss
http://drop.sc/188213
The Win
http://drop.sc/188214
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I was wondering in ZVP when you engage with Roach/Infestor against something like Stalker/Collosus ball in the mid-late game, is it better to use Fungal or Infested Terran? I feel like when I Fungal, the damage inflicted doesn't come out fast enough compared to when there's Infested Terrans. What are the pros and cons of using them and which one do you guys use more often?
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I have two questions:
Is a ultra-hydra lategame in zvz effective?
And...
I was reading some of the Zerg openers in ZvT. I oftentimes go 16hatch/17pool when i'm being really greedy. Is this ineffective?
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On May 29 2012 13:40 learning88 wrote:
I was wondering in ZVP when you engage with Roach/Infestor against something like Stalker/Collosus ball in the mid-late game, is it better to use Fungal or Infested Terran? I feel like when I Fungal, the damage inflicted doesn't come out fast enough compared to when there's Infested Terrans. What are the pros and cons of using them and which one do you guys use more often?
Fungal. Roaches are really good at tanking damage and allows for the fungal to really do a lot of damage. Infested terrans will easily get taken out by the high-damage splash from the Colossi. Also, you shouldn't be looking to engage the ball unless you have spine crawler support. Roach/Infestor is hard-countered by forcefields. 
On May 29 2012 13:52 HighLach wrote:
I have two questions:
Is a ultra-hydra lategame in zvz effective?
And...
I was reading some of the Zerg openers in ZvT. I oftentimes go 16hatch/17pool when i'm being really greedy. Is this ineffective?
Not a composition that I've used a lot but it seems like it would get owned by broodlords/infestor/hydra. Most ZvZ's don't make it to the late game anyways.
I don't see how a greedy build can be ineffective, especially as Zerg. You'd just lose to 2-rax timings or any other early rax. As for the 3-marine, 1 SCV pressure, i'm sure you can get out 4 zerglings and a queen in the natural in time for that. It really depends on the map.
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On May 29 2012 13:40 learning88 wrote:
I was wondering in ZVP when you engage with Roach/Infestor against something like Stalker/Collosus ball in the mid-late game, is it better to use Fungal or Infested Terran? I feel like when I Fungal, the damage inflicted doesn't come out fast enough compared to when there's Infested Terrans. What are the pros and cons of using them and which one do you guys use more often?
Masters zerg here. My opinion is that you should always use both if you can spare the energy. You generally aim to engage with roach/infestor while on creep with a ton of spines and that's where fungals prevail because they prevent the protoss army from retreating and do plenty of damage (meaning that if he engages unfavorably you pretty much take out his whole army right there). In the meantime infested terrans are AWESOME at tanking colossus splash damage so your ground army/ spines live longer. My advice is to fungal as much as you need to prevent retreat and then spam infested terrans after the protoss has committed to the battle. On a second note you always want to get some corruptors vs colossus because they can be extremely annoying to kill cost efficiently with roach/spine given proper micro by the protoss player.
TLDR. Fungal + corruptors to lockdown and kill collossi, infested terrans to tank the splash damage, spines/ roaches to deal with the rest of his ground army.
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ZvP: how to beat a non FFE but mass stalker into colossus play i stop the first push at my nat with slow lings then speedlings as i delay enough with 3 spines to get the tech but when the next load comes slakers, few sentries and colossus i die. what comp should i go for . .atm ive been going roach heavy with 20 lings or so with 8 corruptors
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On May 29 2012 19:25 StatixEx wrote:
ZvP: how to beat a non FFE but mass stalker into colossus play i stop the first push at my nat with slow lings then speedlings as i delay enough with 3 spines to get the tech but when the next load comes slakers, few sentries and colossus i die. what comp should i go for . .atm ive been going roach heavy with 20 lings or so with 8 corruptors
If the protoss expands before aggression you can just treat it like a FFE, grab the fast 3rd and play standard.
If he hasn't expanded before 40 supply you should start massing speedlings and popping spines (1 spine for every minute he hasn't expanded after 40 supply is a good rule of thumb). Mass speedlings/ spines are extremely good vs 1 base gateway units and as a bonus you can go kill him almost instantly after you defend the push. Generally, I'd avoid roaches vs a 1 base protoss as they are a huge money sink for a 2 base zerg.
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On May 29 2012 19:25 StatixEx wrote:
ZvP: how to beat a non FFE but mass stalker into colossus play i stop the first push at my nat with slow lings then speedlings as i delay enough with 3 spines to get the tech but when the next load comes slakers, few sentries and colossus i die. what comp should i go for . .atm ive been going roach heavy with 20 lings or so with 8 corruptors
Hard to answer without a replay. But it's sounds like the issue is that you had a hard time dealing with the initial push, not the 2nd one. Have a 2nd look at your replay, and see what you could have done different to handle the first push.
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How can i deal with 2 gate push? And how can i scout that without killing one overlord? Thanks!
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On May 30 2012 04:34 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
How can i deal with 2 gate push? And how can i scout that without killing one overlord? Thanks!
You really need to include more information. Was it a proxy 2gate? Was it part of a FFE? Was in a 1 base play? Is he building stalkers, or is he building zealots? There is a huge variety which could make it difficult to answer accurately if we don't have a replay.
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On May 30 2012 04:39 HighLach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 04:34 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
How can i deal with 2 gate push? And how can i scout that without killing one overlord? Thanks! You really need to include more information. Was it a proxy 2gate? Was it part of a FFE? Was in a 1 base play? Is he building stalkers, or is he building zealots? There is a huge variety which could make it difficult to answer accurately if we don't have a replay.
It was FFE, i defended the first push and when i was going to attack with roaches and hydras he had a carrier that crush my army 
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^ you can still send in an overlord, your initial overlord should be going to his natural anyways (to spot his gas count, but also check his wall). This overlord should exactly see if he makes a 2nd gate instead of a core at his wall-in.
He can't kill your overlord for a long time. Just keep the overlord out of range of a cannon (even if it's range, it will usually move out in time before a cannon kills it), and if you see him make 2 gates instead of gate/core, that should tell you all you need to know.
It's extremely easy to deal with. You can put up a spine, you can use a 6:30 roach warren, or you can just make an earlier gas and use speedlings. He'll have like 4-6 zealots at the same time as a 4 gate +1, except with no reinforcements.
Having a ling out front of his base or at the watch towers would have told you enough too, you would have seen the move-out, and reactively made a spine and lots of lings.
Ultra/hydra is not good in zvz. In lategame, infestors are always better than hydras (similarly, in midgame, hydras are always better than infestors - this is a timing issue that even mid-masters rarely appreciates though, due to macro issues and aggression). Ultras can be good if you went ling/muta, or ling/infestor mass spines into hive, but otherwise, you'll want to either stick with roach/hydra/infestor or add broodlords.
16hatch/17 pool is fine, but 15 hatch is more economic. 15hatch, 17 pool is quite greedy, but if you can handle 2 rax pressures with 17 pool, keep at it. You should be able to, just some people might not feel comfortable with it, so its up to you. Personally i go 15h/16p.
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ZvT both diamonds. http://drop.sc/188408
Pretty standard game i went hatch first with the 4 queen build, he went some sort of really safe hellion expand that you don't see alot anymore. Up untill around 20 minutes in the game i felt that i was playing pretty decent but then when i was being aggressive the battles didn't go well at all( i had a short timing where i could have killed him) and eventually he came out ahead, took his 3rd base and i decided to go infestor brood lord, but my army never really became big because of somehow lacking gas(blocked my gold base with creep tumor T_T) he also abused my immobile army and my engagements were bad too, i just couldn't get enough units. GG
Now those are my thoughts, but im not sure if i should have stopped using muta ling bane after all i didn't have enough gas? should i have continued to just max out and attack? I also felt i had too many mutas and too little lings/banes. I find it hard too see the crucial mistakes other then the ones i've already mentioned.
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Getting back into SC2 once again, hows the ZvZ meta game nowadays?
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Zerg doesn't need any more help guys! close down the thread :D
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Whenever I play infestors in ZvT I always float an insane amount of minerals on 3 bases plus a macro hatch. Is this normal or does my marco suck? I rarely float resources before I max in ZvP and used to have no trouble when I played mutas ZvT but for some reason I struggle now.
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EPT
