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On May 25 2012 16:14 Belial88 wrote:Anyways. So back on that "role of hydras in zvz" topic. I tried it - we both went fast third in zvz, and I went hydras once on 3 base, instead of infestors. Meanwhile, the opponent went infestors - and they actually popped in time before I pushed (when I was near max, after droning the third hard because I saw him get his third). And I have to say, wow! Even though his infestors popped, he didn't have enough, and they didn't have enough energy. I crushed through his army, and eventually they died due to being overaggressive but I killed at least 2 full armies with my 1 roach/hydra army, not to mention killed all his infestors while taking my fourth and teching to them myself. I'm really surprised, so thanks blade5555 and everyone else who responded about that. Totally, roach/hydra>roach/infestor. http://drop.sc/185785
roach hydra is also very map dependant. it is generally NOT a good idea to go all in or overextent with a roach hydra push, because if infestors have popped, then chokes are very dangerous.
examples: idra vs nestea MLG global invitational games 1 and 2. 1 player go roach hydra and the other go roach infestor in both games. roach hydra won.
a good general rule is that doing a 3 base roach hydra push, and you JUST lose all your roaches before roach reinforcements from both sides(leaving yourself with hydra only), it is a perfect roach:hydra ratio.
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I just played a TvZ on shakuras plateau. What is the best response to a terran double raxing at the base of your ramp when your expo hatch just started building, with a third scv behind waiting to build a bunker once the rax are done. Behind this, the terran immediately got a cc at his nat and two more rax there to form a sim city. By the time i broke out with lings his nat was pretty much bunkered up.
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On May 26 2012 01:17 blackwaltz3 wrote:
I just played a TvZ on shakuras plateau. What is the best response to a terran double raxing at the base of your ramp when your expo hatch just started building, with a third scv behind waiting to build a bunker once the rax are done. Behind this, the terran immediately got a cc at his nat and two more rax there to form a sim city. By the time i broke out with lings his nat was pretty much bunkered up.
Sounds like a game I played last week...I was able to kill the scv's with my drones at the bottom of the ramp, but he wound up bringing 5 more and proxied a rax where I couldn't reach. The raxes eventually finished and I was stuck in one base.
This is similar to pylon ramp block in ZvP - you will be set so far behind that you will never win unless your opponent does something stupid.
Besides F10-n, you could cancel the expansion and try to relocate it, expand with the scouting drone, let the expo finish and attack with lings from those eggs, go double gas immediately and get muta, or nydus into the terran main. All of these are easily countered with scouting, bunker rushing far expansions, and a few turrets. In the game I played the terran put planetaries at his main and natural and expanded to my natural.
A way to avoid this is patrolling a drone at the bottom of the ramp when you go to expand. This was common practice for a lot of zergs over a year ago when the pylon blocks were really popular. You don't really see pro's do this, though. Idra, for instance, will stick in one base, try to nydus, and leave if it fails. It's really up to you how you want to approach it, but I'm not alone in feeling that staying in the game is a waste of time.
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On May 26 2012 01:17 blackwaltz3 wrote:
I just played a TvZ on shakuras plateau. What is the best response to a terran double raxing at the base of your ramp when your expo hatch just started building, with a third scv behind waiting to build a bunker once the rax are done. Behind this, the terran immediately got a cc at his nat and two more rax there to form a sim city. By the time i broke out with lings his nat was pretty much bunkered up.
How fast did he wall in the entire ramp? The second your overlord or scout see several scv's approaching you need to do what ever it takes to stop your ramp from being walled in. Even if they start building barracks it will take some time to finish the buildings, you should be able to kill several constructing scv's before the rax are up. I would love to see a replay of this though!
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On May 26 2012 01:57 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2012 01:17 blackwaltz3 wrote:
I just played a TvZ on shakuras plateau. What is the best response to a terran double raxing at the base of your ramp when your expo hatch just started building, with a third scv behind waiting to build a bunker once the rax are done. Behind this, the terran immediately got a cc at his nat and two more rax there to form a sim city. By the time i broke out with lings his nat was pretty much bunkered up. How fast did he wall in the entire ramp? The second your overlord or scout see several scv's approaching you need to do what ever it takes to stop your ramp from being walled in. Even if they start building barracks it will take some time to finish the buildings, you should be able to kill several constructing scv's before the rax are up. I would love to see a replay of this though!
http://drop.sc/185869
here it is. I must admit I made a lot of mistakes throughout the game, just poor crisis management. Like, I wanted to cancel the hatch when it was almost done, but obviously forgot. Also, losing a random overlord. And towards the end, making a round of drones to try to catch up (which was a terrible time to do so). But yea, any comments will be appreciated!! and basically this replay is just for viewing pleasure, i dont think this strat is all that common. i thought it was a pretty good terran build against a zerg who has no experience in handling it.
Just going back to the start of the game, if I had scouted, i would see no gas, no rax in his base. My response is usually 15 hatch, then 15 pool, and pay attention to my expo area with the overlord. As u can see from the replay, i noted one scv coming in at first, and then it left. Then he came in with 2, and they immediately started building the 2 barracks. My drones were of course, unable to get there in time. I guess i MIGHT be able to see 2 scvs if i had sent out a drone scout, but then again I might not.
as Servius_Fulvius suggested, patrolling a drone will help but not many people do that because you have one less drone mining. Then again, since I didnt send out a drone scout, maybe i really shd leave a patrolling drone.
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wow, thanks Belial88, you are an awesome bro!
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I have a question, is it worth using 2-2 baneling killing his PF at the 3rd in ZvT?
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On May 26 2012 05:15 BlueKatz wrote:
I have a question, is it worth using 2-2 baneling killing his PF at the 3rd in ZvT?
This is very dependant on your situation. If you have a huge bank sure, but if you are in a very close game no it is not worth it.
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On May 26 2012 05:22 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2012 05:15 BlueKatz wrote:
I have a question, is it worth using 2-2 baneling killing his PF at the 3rd in ZvT? This is very dependant on your situation. If you have a huge bank sure, but if you are in a very close game no it is not worth it.
Would it be worth it to, say, take 8 banelings, run them into the scv line, and either detonate or let the PF detonate them? At least in my ZvT's killing a good 20 workers doesn't seem to be game-changing (thanks, mules) and perhaps the banelings are better used elsewhere?
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On May 26 2012 06:01 Servius_Fulvius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2012 05:22 blade55555 wrote:On May 26 2012 05:15 BlueKatz wrote:
I have a question, is it worth using 2-2 baneling killing his PF at the 3rd in ZvT? This is very dependant on your situation. If you have a huge bank sure, but if you are in a very close game no it is not worth it. Would it be worth it to, say, take 8 banelings, run them into the scv line, and either detonate or let the PF detonate them? At least in my ZvT's killing a good 20 workers doesn't seem to be game-changing (thanks, mules) and perhaps the banelings are better used elsewhere?
Yea interested in a answer to this question also. Would be better to maybe perhaps just do a bane drop on the mineral line if you can.
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Can someone tell me the time to sac Overlord in ZvP? It's like a must in ZvT but I can't see anything about it in ZvP
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On May 27 2012 03:22 BlueKatz wrote:
Can someone tell me the time to sac Overlord in ZvP? It's like a must in ZvT but I can't see anything about it in ZvP
Not sure for gate way expand, but when playing against a FFE, around 6:30.
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Would it be worth it to, say, take 8 banelings, run them into the scv line, and either detonate or let the PF detonate them? At least in my ZvT's killing a good 20 workers doesn't seem to be game-changing (thanks, mules) and perhaps the banelings are better used elsewhere?
No. Terran will just pull his SCVs, and your banelings will die before they can chase the SCVs. If It's an OC, yea, sure.
And don't use 8 whole banelings, just use 2-4.
You should manually detonate them, so they detonate in a 'spread' - like, 2 banes on left, 2 banes on right side, of mineral fields, so you get as many as possible.
By the way, you need +3 attack to 2 shot an SCV, because SCVs have 45 life. Drones and probes have only 40 life, so it takes only +2 to 1 shot them.
Also, be aware that armor and shield upgrades affect workers (it's only attack upgrades that don't). So if Terran has +3 armor when you have +3 attack, then the SCVs will still need 2 banes to kill.
If you want to gamble that the Terran is an idiot, then go for it though. But most likely, he will pull them in time, AND he will have some army nearby to shoot the banes. Make sure to move command and manually deonate, or else they will aggro towards enemy units first.
And don't get baneling drops in ZvT. It's not worth the gas, you are better off getting hive earlier on and t3 units, and terran generally has turrets up in his mineral lines anyways.
Can someone tell me the time to sac Overlord in ZvP? It's like a must in ZvT but I can't see anything about it in ZvP
7:00 against FFE.
Against 1 base play, you should be able to figure out what's going on through units he makes and his expansion timing (6:00 for DT/SG, 5:30 3 gate, 4:30 1 gate), but 5:30 if you are unsure. That evo needs to go down against DT/SG by 6.
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i've looked through the last 53pages of this thread, but i couldnt find this answer, so I'll just post it.
A. when fighting a ffe, when should i place down my 3rd, when both my main and natural is saturated, or earlier?
and
B. when fighting a terran, when they do mass drops(1/3 of their army) in my base during an engagement, should i pull back or defeat 2/3 of his army and move on to their base and let my new units finish off the drops?
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On May 27 2012 08:13 C0MMANDO wrote:
i've looked through the last 53pages of this thread, but i couldnt find this answer, so I'll just post it.
A. when fighting a ffe, when should i place down my 3rd, when both my main and natural is saturated, or earlier?
and
B. when fighting a terran, when they do mass drops(1/3 of their army) in my base during an engagement, should i pull back or defeat 2/3 of his army and move on to their base and let my new units finish off the drops?
A: Around 24 supply (2nd queen building) is usually the normal timing.
B: Difficult position, if you're ahead in upgrades and have a big wave of reinforcements coming, sure, you can go for a base trade. But It can backfire aswell. Follow your gut and hope for the best!
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Alright, I need help. ZvZ used to be my worst matchup for a while, now that I figured it out, another terrible well known problem appeared in ZvT: I just can not at all figure out how to beat mech, be it tanks or thors. The moment I see a terran going for blue flame, it's GG for me.
No matter what I do, Ultas obviously don't cut it, whenever I actually manage to hit Broodlords I just get torn apart by either mass thors or mass vikings/tanks mixed with blue flame hellions. Lings die in a fire, roaches get torn apart by thors (tanks even more so) and the brood just sit there to die with the broodlings dying to blue flame.
Replay here, hoping someone will bother: http://drop.sc/186454
I know my macro slipped hard there, but I still was ahead until the end of the game where I got caught off guard bad. Probably should have managed that attack at his third a little better, but with him having banked 2k resources I don't see how this game could have gone any more satisfying for me.
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^ Dont make ultras vs mech.
If you are getting torn apart by mass thor, then you need WAY more broodlords, or you need to be aggressive early game against a terran who is skimping on siege tanks and being greedier by going for more thors (thors are better lategame, but worse early game). You need to go towards roaches as soon as you realize it's mech, and expand, if not double expand, asap. Ideally against mech, you should take a third as normal, around 40 supply, but as soon as you notice it's mech, make roaches (hellions wont kill a base, they will deny a drone getting out though).
Sounds like you have some basic problems with understanding, check out my zvt guide.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023
I imagine your macro is really a big issue too, so check out the replay section and compare your game to the ones in the replay section. Mech isn't that successful in pro play except on very specific maps (which are not zerg favored maps to begin with), and in my low level opinion, it isn't good at all unless you let him kill your drones with hellions. Put up lots of spines by expansions to prevent that (which you can see the replays in my guide).
B. when fighting a terran, when they do mass drops(1/3 of their army) in my base during an engagement, should i pull back or defeat 2/3 of his army and move on to their base and let my new units finish off the drops?
Depends on your position in the game. If you are ahead, you'll want to crush that drop and just be safe, and make the game as normal as possible so terran slowly dies. If you are behind, you may need to do something as risky as go base trade. If the game is even, it really depends. Is your main nearly mined out and your crucial tech located somewhere else, so losing that base means nothing? Or is it your hive and where your great spire and ifnestation pit is located? Really game dependent, upload replays and we can help you out when you struggle with this.
I really don't think upgrades or if you have a reinforcements coming affects this decision. I mean, you can be ahead because of your upgrades (although zerg isn't really the upgrade race as much as toss or terran, sometimes upgrades are useless, like against mech)... but upgrades aren't that game changing unless it's like 3/3 vs 0/0.
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On May 27 2012 09:40 Belial88 wrote:^ Dont make ultras vs mech. If you are getting torn apart by mass thor, then you need WAY more broodlords, or you need to be aggressive early game against a terran who is skimping on siege tanks and being greedier by going for more thors (thors are better lategame, but worse early game). You need to go towards roaches as soon as you realize it's mech, and expand, if not double expand, asap. Ideally against mech, you should take a third as normal, around 40 supply, but as soon as you notice it's mech, make roaches (hellions wont kill a base, they will deny a drone getting out though). Sounds like you have some basic problems with understanding, check out my zvt guide. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023I imagine your macro is really a big issue too, so check out the replay section and compare your game to the ones in the replay section. Mech isn't that successful in pro play except on very specific maps (which are not zerg favored maps to begin with), and in my low level opinion, it isn't good at all unless you let him kill your drones with hellions. Put up lots of spines by expansions to prevent that (which you can see the replays in my guide).
Thank you for your reply. 
Yeah I actually found your guide right after I posted and I actually saw what went wrong. Matter of fact I'd have won that game if I had had a 4th earlier. I just rather failed at scouting. It was just a random mixture of oddities (having my natural bunkered and then the total lack of any aggression) that lead to me believing he was going for tanks and not thors.
Still the thing that baffles me is how the guy had 3k resources banked and no backup coming, what would have happened if he had put those into even more thors.
I don't really lack basic understanding (at least for my level) since atm this is the only build that keeps me from getting into plat. Rather a lack of experience.
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What's the timing on spire if one plans to go mutas in ZvP?
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EPT
