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On May 22 2012 22:55 Terrorcore wrote:
Quick question that hopefully can be answered without a hassle!
Played Zerg since release and I remember the standard opening being 10 overlord (or so I think??). Seen a lot of players doing and people talking about 9 overlord instead. Either im not up to date with the builds or I have been doing it wrong the whole time but I was wondering what is most efficient; 10 or 9 overlord?
9 overlord is slightly better; second best, if you made a 10 overlord by mistake: do an extractor trick to go 11/10.
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Since the queen buff I've seen lots of talk about a gasless 4 queen opener in ZvT. It makes sense to me -- better creep spread, easy to shoo hellions away, and you're pre-prepared for any early banshees. My question is, what's the general way to play this strategy? Obviously, build 4 queens and spread creep and defend against hellions/banshees, but when do you finally get gas? You'll need it for banelings (for the inevitable tank/marine action that seems to show up nearly every game) as well as your lair tech. What're the timings if you open gasless 4 queens?
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I get 3 gases at 6:00 minutes, and I am fine with it. Also I am going for a fast macro hatch, first 100 gas speed, then double evo upgrades and lair tech. If and if yes when I throw a roach warren or a baneling nest depends on what I am scouting.
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On May 22 2012 23:19 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 22:55 Terrorcore wrote:
Quick question that hopefully can be answered without a hassle!
Played Zerg since release and I remember the standard opening being 10 overlord (or so I think??). Seen a lot of players doing and people talking about 9 overlord instead. Either im not up to date with the builds or I have been doing it wrong the whole time but I was wondering what is most efficient; 10 or 9 overlord? 9 overlord is slightly better; second best, if you made a 10 overlord by mistake: do an extractor trick to go 11/10.
Thank you. I figure the build orders once your overlord pops are virtually unchanged (14/14, 15/14, etc).
Let me ask, I guess its better to go 9 overlord economy-wise at the start of the game. Right?
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I have found that 9 overlord makes a more smooth drone production, and the times don't change much. The extractor trick does sacrifice a few minerals, like 6 or something, so it's no big deal, but going 9 overlord I've just found that 2 larvae are ready when it pops and you're at roughly 80-90 minerals when it pops, so the two drones are made almost right away. Going 10 with extractor trick means you're slightly delayed in the drone production, it's not a HUGE deal, but it's a bit better for overall builds.
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On May 22 2012 23:20 Hemingway wrote:
Since the queen buff I've seen lots of talk about a gasless 4 queen opener in ZvT. It makes sense to me -- better creep spread, easy to shoo hellions away, and you're pre-prepared for any early banshees. My question is, what's the general way to play this strategy? Obviously, build 4 queens and spread creep and defend against hellions/banshees, but when do you finally get gas? You'll need it for banelings (for the inevitable tank/marine action that seems to show up nearly every game) as well as your lair tech. What're the timings if you open gasless 4 queens?
I'd say you should get 3 gasses around 36-40 supply and get the other gas when you start your lair. you should be getting your third as SOON as the hellions leave. the earlier the better
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 vs  Michael vs Barrage ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png)
I've got a few questions about this zvp stephano style roach max.
1) How can I be sure my drone mining is more optimal. Are there any rules you follow when transferring or any specific steps? I find myself just winging it each time, and sometimes I end up with 56 drones (here) and sometimes I end up with 65 drones.
2) I take my first two gas at 6min.. when do I take 3/4? do I need 5/6? Do I put 3 in each? 2?
3) When do I drop the warren?
4) Are there any other additions I should consider? 6:40 evo timing? +1 ranged? what other upgrades if any?
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On May 23 2012 05:16 michaelhasanalias wrote:
1) How can I be sure my drone mining is more optimal. Are there any rules you follow when transferring or any specific steps? I find myself just winging it each time, and sometimes I end up with 56 drones (here) and sometimes I end up with 65 drones.
What you see pro's do on streams is box over their worker line to ensure they have at least 14. If you have 14 at each base with 4 geysers that means you have about 54 drones. You obviously want more since you'll be taking the 5th and 6th gas as you get into lair tech. If you're doing stephano-style roaches you will want 60+ drones, so you'll know you're close when you box over 14 at each base.
2) I take my first two gas at 6min.. when do I take 3/4? do I need 5/6? Do I put 3 in each? 2?
You will put three drones in each geyser. Specific gas timings vary with player, but the most "standard" build is to take 2 gas at 6:00 for speed and lair upgrades. Get your third gas after lair since it is absolutely necessary for the roach/ling max (if that's what you're pursuing). 4th gas compliments your choice of lair tech. If you're doing more of a ret-style roach/hydra/upgrades you'll be getting all 6 gas relatively quickly. 5th and 6th gas are generally for lair tech units and upgrades and you should get them once you're well-saturated and conifident that toss isn't all-ining you/doing something you need to respond to immediately.
3) When do I drop the warren?
7:00 is the "official" timing given by Tang's guide for Stephano roach. If there's an all-in 7gate or 4 gate pressure coming your way you'll need it at 6:30. If toss is doing a tech-oriented route with the intention of expanding you can go as late as 8:00 and make more drones. The idea is to get it as late as possible so you can drone more. It is completely dependent on scouting. If you're in the dark 7:15-7:30 is a trusty time.
4) Are there any other additions I should consider? 6:40 evo timing? +1 ranged? what other upgrades if any?
Most pro's seem to get +1 ranged, but I've seen several upgrade carapace for the lings. Necessary upgrades for stephano roach are ling speed, roach speed, and +1 ranged or carapace. A lot of players go for burrow and if it's sentry-heavy tunneling claws helps evade forcefield.
I usually see pro's get the evo with the roach warren, It would seem that 6:30 is WAY too early for upgrades since they won't be done to kill a 7gate all-in and the money is best spent on workers. The same goes for the lair - why get it if an early all-in is going to kill you? Tang recommends getting the evo at 7:00 with the roach warren, but that doesn't mean you need to start the upgrade the moment it finishes. The 7:15 timing is probably a good compromise since you will have spores in time for air openers.
Otherwise bone up on your scouting and make sure you work in some good overlord sacrifice timings to your build. Whenever possible get another overlord at the natural geysers since they tell a lot about toss strategy.
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Hi, its me again with the same problem against zvp 6gate robo. I really dont know what i am doing wrong, and i cant play anymore until i figure it out! I just uploaded a replay of a recent game that i still dont know why i lost. Can someone take a look please? http://www.sendspace.com/file/vozh8j
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On May 22 2012 23:20 Hemingway wrote:
Since the queen buff I've seen lots of talk about a gasless 4 queen opener in ZvT. It makes sense to me -- better creep spread, easy to shoo hellions away, and you're pre-prepared for any early banshees. My question is, what's the general way to play this strategy? Obviously, build 4 queens and spread creep and defend against hellions/banshees, but when do you finally get gas? You'll need it for banelings (for the inevitable tank/marine action that seems to show up nearly every game) as well as your lair tech. What're the timings if you open gasless 4 queens?
Came here to ask this too
Does anyone have a build order to follow?
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On May 22 2012 22:55 Terrorcore wrote:
Quick question that hopefully can be answered without a hassle!
Played Zerg since release and I remember the standard opening being 10 overlord (or so I think??). Seen a lot of players doing and people talking about 9 overlord instead. Either im not up to date with the builds or I have been doing it wrong the whole time but I was wondering what is most efficient; 10 or 9 overlord?
There is probably a thread for this somewhere, but in all honesty it really doesn't matter. I think I heard a statistic that 9 overlord is better, but I still do 10; it's really insignificant.
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On May 23 2012 06:51 BatesC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 23:20 Hemingway wrote:
Since the queen buff I've seen lots of talk about a gasless 4 queen opener in ZvT. It makes sense to me -- better creep spread, easy to shoo hellions away, and you're pre-prepared for any early banshees. My question is, what's the general way to play this strategy? Obviously, build 4 queens and spread creep and defend against hellions/banshees, but when do you finally get gas? You'll need it for banelings (for the inevitable tank/marine action that seems to show up nearly every game) as well as your lair tech. What're the timings if you open gasless 4 queens? Came here to ask this too Does anyone have a build order to follow?
I open with this build all the time. I'll give you a rough build order.
drones...
-10 Overlord
drones...
-15 Hatch
-15-17 Pool (This depends on map, and scouting. 17 is the latest you should really go)
@Pool completion - build 2 queens, inject with the queens, then send them to the front of your natural to defend and spread creep.
drones..., if you don't need to build zerglings to defend anything.
@2Queens completion - Build two more queens. These queens will inject at your main and nat.
Then you should usually build a spine crawler by the time you need it depending on what your opponent did. 4:30 is good generally.
I would also suggest having some sim city at the front of your natural to stop hellion runbys and such.
So by the end of this little overview, you should have lots of drones, 1 queen at your main for injects, 1 queen at your nat for injections/(some defense), and 2 queens at the front of your natural for defense and creep spread.
After you have reached this point the deviations begin.
You should get gasses depending on what you want to do. You could grab all 4 and go a leenock 2 base heavy ling, infestor pressure with +1 melee and +1 carapace. There are almost unlimited variations. You could go muta, or you could expand and play defensively with infestors. You could build roaches if he perhaps is going mech. It's really just a great opening that lets you go into the mid game with a strong economy.
This is a very economic, defensive opening that allows for a lot of creepspread.
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On May 23 2012 07:00 HighLach wrote:
I open with this build all the time. I'll give you a rough build order.
drones...
-10 Overlord
drones...
-15 Hatch
-15-17 Pool (This depends on map, and scouting. 17 is the latest you should really go)
@Pool completion - build 2 queens, inject with the queens, then send them to the front of your natural to defend and spread creep.
drones..., if you don't need to build zerglings to defend anything.
@2Queens completion - Build two more queens. These queens will inject at your main and nat.
Then you should usually build a spine crawler by the time you need it depending on what your opponent did. 4:30 is good generally.
I would also suggest having some sim city at the front of your natural to stop hellion runbys and such.
So by the end of this little overview, you should have lots of drones, 1 queen at your main for injects, 1 queen at your nat for injections/(some defense), and 2 queens at the front of your natural for defense and creep spread.
After you have reached this point the deviations begin.
This is a very economic, defensive opening that allows for a lot of creepspread.
Sounds solid. If you're going mutas when do you get your gas/lair/spire/baneling nest? People have said 3gas ~6 minutes, and after that I'm thinking going baneling nest/lair (scouting dependent) plus 4th gas, then spire/baneling speed (again scouting dependent) -- all as the gas comes, of course.
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On May 23 2012 06:40 aaaaaaaaa wrote:Hi, its me again with the same problem against zvp 6gate robo. I really dont know what i am doing wrong, and i cant play anymore until i figure it out! I just uploaded a replay of a recent game that i still dont know why i lost. Can someone take a look please? http://www.sendspace.com/file/vozh8j
This replay wasn't against 6gate robo. In fact, your opponent did some weird stuff, but it functionally worked out as 4gate into 6ish gates.
You scouted the 4gate. At this point you should have put down a roach warren, but instead you made a ton of drones. The toss wasn't very good and didn't press their unit advantage, but a better player would pressure you.
You got early zergling speed, but you never used it. You should have been poking at the front while making drones to get a glimpse of unit amount, composition, and when they moved out.
Micro-wise, the biggest reason you lost is because you didn't engage the toss army until they were at your third base. This is where the toss has the biggest advantage. I've played games like this on korhal compound where sentries forcefield the entire half of the third using the hatchery to complete the wall. It's not a very pretty choke unless you get a flank.
Macro-wise you had slips when watching the scouting overlord and were supply blocked a few times (especially when the scout died). Your injects are decent, especially for a silver-leaguer, so with just a little work on your macro and a better build you'll be in good shape!
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On May 23 2012 09:08 Servius_Fulvius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 06:40 aaaaaaaaa wrote:Hi, its me again with the same problem against zvp 6gate robo. I really dont know what i am doing wrong, and i cant play anymore until i figure it out! I just uploaded a replay of a recent game that i still dont know why i lost. Can someone take a look please? http://www.sendspace.com/file/vozh8j This replay wasn't against 6gate robo. In fact, your opponent did some weird stuff, but it functionally worked out as 4gate into 6ish gates. You scouted the 4gate. At this point you should have put down a roach warren, but instead you made a ton of drones. The toss wasn't very good and didn't press their unit advantage, but a better player would pressure you. You got early zergling speed, but you never used it. You should have been poking at the front while making drones to get a glimpse of unit amount, composition, and when they moved out. Micro-wise, the biggest reason you lost is because you didn't engage the toss army until they were at your third base. This is where the toss has the biggest advantage. I've played games like this on korhal compound where sentries forcefield the entire half of the third using the hatchery to complete the wall. It's not a very pretty choke unless you get a flank. Macro-wise you had slips when watching the scouting overlord and were supply blocked a few times (especially when the scout died). Your injects are decent, especially for a silver-leaguer, so with just a little work on your macro and a better build you'll be in good shape!
I am really grateful, thanks mate.
I got two more questions, why should i have put down a roach warren, Infestors and lings wouldnt be better to deal with 4 gate? And you think i am too far away from some decent league like platinum?
Thanks once again!
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On May 23 2012 09:19 aaaaaaaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:08 Servius_Fulvius wrote:On May 23 2012 06:40 aaaaaaaaa wrote:Hi, its me again with the same problem against zvp 6gate robo. I really dont know what i am doing wrong, and i cant play anymore until i figure it out! I just uploaded a replay of a recent game that i still dont know why i lost. Can someone take a look please? http://www.sendspace.com/file/vozh8j This replay wasn't against 6gate robo. In fact, your opponent did some weird stuff, but it functionally worked out as 4gate into 6ish gates. You scouted the 4gate. At this point you should have put down a roach warren, but instead you made a ton of drones. The toss wasn't very good and didn't press their unit advantage, but a better player would pressure you. You got early zergling speed, but you never used it. You should have been poking at the front while making drones to get a glimpse of unit amount, composition, and when they moved out. Micro-wise, the biggest reason you lost is because you didn't engage the toss army until they were at your third base. This is where the toss has the biggest advantage. I've played games like this on korhal compound where sentries forcefield the entire half of the third using the hatchery to complete the wall. It's not a very pretty choke unless you get a flank. Macro-wise you had slips when watching the scouting overlord and were supply blocked a few times (especially when the scout died). Your injects are decent, especially for a silver-leaguer, so with just a little work on your macro and a better build you'll be in good shape! I am really grateful, thanks mate. I got two more questions, why should i have put down a roach warren, Infestors and lings wouldnt be better to deal with 4 gate? And you think i am too far away from some decent league like platinum? Thanks once again!
1). A 1 base 4gate rush hits at around 6:30. A 2 base 4gate pressure hits around 8:00. You never see infestors that fast in zvz, let alone zvp. Toss is cutting economy to lay on the pressure, so you need to make some cuts as well. Pure ling CAN overcome a 1 base 4gate, but it's easier with roaches to help out. The 6:30 roach warren will yield roaches in time versus a fast-expanding protoss. All the gas goes to roaches and the rest goes to lings. If you prepared correctly you should come out ahead against the pressure, drone like a madman, and contain the toss to their base. If, in a hypothetical universe, you could have 3-4 infestors and two dozen lings against a 4gate then yes, you could probably hold it pretty well. The zerg metagame atm is to either max quickly on roach/ling OR build just enough roach/ling to protect yourself from protoss shenanigans while expanding and teching. The flow of ZvP is to do one or the other - the former trades units with toss and delays 3rd expo while the latter allows them to expand but gets your tech up a lot quicker. Ultimately most pro level ZvP's turn into Broodlord/Infestor versus Stalker/Archon/Colossus/Mothership. If you haven't already download a bunch of pro zerg replays (you can find several packs on TL) and get a feel for the flow of the game. Pick which style you'd enjoy the most and practice the hell out of it!
2). It's hard to say where, in the grand scheme of things, your talent truly places you. I'm high plat and sometimes I'll beat a high diamond player in a drawn-out macro game and sometimes lose to a high gold player who cheesed really well. Don't let league names hold you up - as long as you're learning how to play better and striving to play consistently your league ranks will slowly improve. Honestly, I don't think you're far off from gold league. Then again, gold league has a lot of layers. So does plat and diamond and we've all seen the categories of "low, mid, and high masters". Your play shows that you understand the base concepts of building drones, expanding, scouting, and making reactionary units. Benchmarking your macro would be invaluable at this point because you'll have concrete numbers to strive for each game. Search "Stephano ZvP" for Tang's guide where he essentially does this for you! There are more like it and others that strive to give you a good grasp on strategy (like Belial's ZvP guide). You can find similar threads and discussions for all matchups.
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On May 23 2012 07:04 Hemingway wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 07:00 HighLach wrote:
I open with this build all the time. I'll give you a rough build order.
drones...
-10 Overlord
drones...
-15 Hatch
-15-17 Pool (This depends on map, and scouting. 17 is the latest you should really go)
@Pool completion - build 2 queens, inject with the queens, then send them to the front of your natural to defend and spread creep.
drones..., if you don't need to build zerglings to defend anything.
@2Queens completion - Build two more queens. These queens will inject at your main and nat.
Then you should usually build a spine crawler by the time you need it depending on what your opponent did. 4:30 is good generally.
I would also suggest having some sim city at the front of your natural to stop hellion runbys and such.
So by the end of this little overview, you should have lots of drones, 1 queen at your main for injects, 1 queen at your nat for injections/(some defense), and 2 queens at the front of your natural for defense and creep spread.
After you have reached this point the deviations begin.
This is a very economic, defensive opening that allows for a lot of creepspread. Sounds solid. If you're going mutas when do you get your gas/lair/spire/baneling nest? People have said 3gas ~6 minutes, and after that I'm thinking going baneling nest/lair (scouting dependent) plus 4th gas, then spire/baneling speed (again scouting dependent) -- all as the gas comes, of course.
For the most economic muta opening, after you saturate all your minerals (i.e. you have 16 drones mining minerals at each base) put all 4 of your gasses down while still building drones. You want a lot of mutas, so get your gasses down immediately when you have the most efficient mining of minerals. There's no reason to hold off on the gasses for some dumb reason. Use your gas as it comes in, you don't need timings really. Use your first 100 or so gas on lair, or speed if you are worried. Make sure you get both with your first 200 gas. Then proceed to add on an evo chamber for upgrades, and a baneling nest. Once your lair finishes, you can throw down a spire, get baneling speed etc...
Sometimes you will need to deviate to defend yourself, but this should be the plan for going mutas.
A key to having a strong economy, is having a saturated "efficient" bases. 16 miners on minerals, + 6 on gas, so 22 miners per base.
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On May 23 2012 10:54 Servius_Fulvius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 09:19 aaaaaaaaa wrote:On May 23 2012 09:08 Servius_Fulvius wrote:On May 23 2012 06:40 aaaaaaaaa wrote:Hi, its me again with the same problem against zvp 6gate robo. I really dont know what i am doing wrong, and i cant play anymore until i figure it out! I just uploaded a replay of a recent game that i still dont know why i lost. Can someone take a look please? http://www.sendspace.com/file/vozh8j This replay wasn't against 6gate robo. In fact, your opponent did some weird stuff, but it functionally worked out as 4gate into 6ish gates. You scouted the 4gate. At this point you should have put down a roach warren, but instead you made a ton of drones. The toss wasn't very good and didn't press their unit advantage, but a better player would pressure you. You got early zergling speed, but you never used it. You should have been poking at the front while making drones to get a glimpse of unit amount, composition, and when they moved out. Micro-wise, the biggest reason you lost is because you didn't engage the toss army until they were at your third base. This is where the toss has the biggest advantage. I've played games like this on korhal compound where sentries forcefield the entire half of the third using the hatchery to complete the wall. It's not a very pretty choke unless you get a flank. Macro-wise you had slips when watching the scouting overlord and were supply blocked a few times (especially when the scout died). Your injects are decent, especially for a silver-leaguer, so with just a little work on your macro and a better build you'll be in good shape! I am really grateful, thanks mate. I got two more questions, why should i have put down a roach warren, Infestors and lings wouldnt be better to deal with 4 gate? And you think i am too far away from some decent league like platinum? Thanks once again! 1). A 1 base 4gate rush hits at around 6:30. A 2 base 4gate pressure hits around 8:00. You never see infestors that fast in zvz, let alone zvp. Toss is cutting economy to lay on the pressure, so you need to make some cuts as well. Pure ling CAN overcome a 1 base 4gate, but it's easier with roaches to help out. The 6:30 roach warren will yield roaches in time versus a fast-expanding protoss. All the gas goes to roaches and the rest goes to lings. If you prepared correctly you should come out ahead against the pressure, drone like a madman, and contain the toss to their base. If, in a hypothetical universe, you could have 3-4 infestors and two dozen lings against a 4gate then yes, you could probably hold it pretty well. The zerg metagame atm is to either max quickly on roach/ling OR build just enough roach/ling to protect yourself from protoss shenanigans while expanding and teching. The flow of ZvP is to do one or the other - the former trades units with toss and delays 3rd expo while the latter allows them to expand but gets your tech up a lot quicker. Ultimately most pro level ZvP's turn into Broodlord/Infestor versus Stalker/Archon/Colossus/Mothership. If you haven't already download a bunch of pro zerg replays (you can find several packs on TL) and get a feel for the flow of the game. Pick which style you'd enjoy the most and practice the hell out of it! 2). It's hard to say where, in the grand scheme of things, your talent truly places you. I'm high plat and sometimes I'll beat a high diamond player in a drawn-out macro game and sometimes lose to a high gold player who cheesed really well. Don't let league names hold you up - as long as you're learning how to play better and striving to play consistently your league ranks will slowly improve. Honestly, I don't think you're far off from gold league. Then again, gold league has a lot of layers. So does plat and diamond and we've all seen the categories of "low, mid, and high masters". Your play shows that you understand the base concepts of building drones, expanding, scouting, and making reactionary units. Benchmarking your macro would be invaluable at this point because you'll have concrete numbers to strive for each game. Search "Stephano ZvP" for Tang's guide where he essentially does this for you! There are more like it and others that strive to give you a good grasp on strategy (like Belial's ZvP guide). You can find similar threads and discussions for all matchups.
wow, that was extremely helpful! I never thought that i should have a build order as a zerg, because i always imagined that a reactionary race should just do the counter of the opponent, without any main goal of unit composition in the mid and late game.
I tried Stephano's build and i could max out in 14 minutes, it was enough to kill my opponent. Now i am looking for some ZvT guide but all that i saw here seems to be a little outdated. Any tips?
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Against FFE, I see some players opt for early 1 gas or later 3 gas. What are the advantages to these compared to the more standard 2 gas? Also, when going for alot of queens to hold off any 2 base play from protoss, when is a good indicator or time to start their production?
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On May 24 2012 00:22 aaaaaaaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 10:54 Servius_Fulvius wrote:On May 23 2012 09:19 aaaaaaaaa wrote:On May 23 2012 09:08 Servius_Fulvius wrote:On May 23 2012 06:40 aaaaaaaaa wrote:Hi, its me again with the same problem against zvp 6gate robo. I really dont know what i am doing wrong, and i cant play anymore until i figure it out! I just uploaded a replay of a recent game that i still dont know why i lost. Can someone take a look please? http://www.sendspace.com/file/vozh8j This replay wasn't against 6gate robo. In fact, your opponent did some weird stuff, but it functionally worked out as 4gate into 6ish gates. You scouted the 4gate. At this point you should have put down a roach warren, but instead you made a ton of drones. The toss wasn't very good and didn't press their unit advantage, but a better player would pressure you. You got early zergling speed, but you never used it. You should have been poking at the front while making drones to get a glimpse of unit amount, composition, and when they moved out. Micro-wise, the biggest reason you lost is because you didn't engage the toss army until they were at your third base. This is where the toss has the biggest advantage. I've played games like this on korhal compound where sentries forcefield the entire half of the third using the hatchery to complete the wall. It's not a very pretty choke unless you get a flank. Macro-wise you had slips when watching the scouting overlord and were supply blocked a few times (especially when the scout died). Your injects are decent, especially for a silver-leaguer, so with just a little work on your macro and a better build you'll be in good shape! I am really grateful, thanks mate. I got two more questions, why should i have put down a roach warren, Infestors and lings wouldnt be better to deal with 4 gate? And you think i am too far away from some decent league like platinum? Thanks once again! 1). A 1 base 4gate rush hits at around 6:30. A 2 base 4gate pressure hits around 8:00. You never see infestors that fast in zvz, let alone zvp. Toss is cutting economy to lay on the pressure, so you need to make some cuts as well. Pure ling CAN overcome a 1 base 4gate, but it's easier with roaches to help out. The 6:30 roach warren will yield roaches in time versus a fast-expanding protoss. All the gas goes to roaches and the rest goes to lings. If you prepared correctly you should come out ahead against the pressure, drone like a madman, and contain the toss to their base. If, in a hypothetical universe, you could have 3-4 infestors and two dozen lings against a 4gate then yes, you could probably hold it pretty well. The zerg metagame atm is to either max quickly on roach/ling OR build just enough roach/ling to protect yourself from protoss shenanigans while expanding and teching. The flow of ZvP is to do one or the other - the former trades units with toss and delays 3rd expo while the latter allows them to expand but gets your tech up a lot quicker. Ultimately most pro level ZvP's turn into Broodlord/Infestor versus Stalker/Archon/Colossus/Mothership. If you haven't already download a bunch of pro zerg replays (you can find several packs on TL) and get a feel for the flow of the game. Pick which style you'd enjoy the most and practice the hell out of it! 2). It's hard to say where, in the grand scheme of things, your talent truly places you. I'm high plat and sometimes I'll beat a high diamond player in a drawn-out macro game and sometimes lose to a high gold player who cheesed really well. Don't let league names hold you up - as long as you're learning how to play better and striving to play consistently your league ranks will slowly improve. Honestly, I don't think you're far off from gold league. Then again, gold league has a lot of layers. So does plat and diamond and we've all seen the categories of "low, mid, and high masters". Your play shows that you understand the base concepts of building drones, expanding, scouting, and making reactionary units. Benchmarking your macro would be invaluable at this point because you'll have concrete numbers to strive for each game. Search "Stephano ZvP" for Tang's guide where he essentially does this for you! There are more like it and others that strive to give you a good grasp on strategy (like Belial's ZvP guide). You can find similar threads and discussions for all matchups. wow, that was extremely helpful! I never thought that i should have a build order as a zerg, because i always imagined that a reactionary race should just do the counter of the opponent, without any main goal of unit composition in the mid and late game. I tried Stephano's build and i could max out in 14 minutes, it was enough to kill my opponent. Now i am looking for some ZvT guide but all that i saw here seems to be a little outdated. Any tips?
o.O....uhh, no. Zerg's have rough build orders, but instead of a clear-cut "set list of buildings, units and supply" you have what looks like a troubleshooting manual. It mostly translates to "do as little as possible to take no losses and not die and then resume plan". Each of these reactions can be whittled down into a "build order deviation" itself, but that takes a ton of practice. The start of these reactions is something like "terran is doing a 10 minute push, so I start making lings when he leaves his base"...then you die and the next time make lings a little before. Same goes for making too much: if you overmade lings and had 30 or so left over you know either not to make as much or counter attack with the leftovers. Anyway, without a mid or late game plan zerg will always play one step behind and probably always lose at the highest level. Broodlord/Infestor NEEDS a specific counter as well as stephano style roaches, so it's not just zerg that needs to react.
14 minute max is a bit slow. Shoot for 11:30 since most people on TL hold this as the gold standard. I usually max in ladder games about 12:00, but against computer I can hit 11:30-11:40 consistently.
As for ZvT, I know Belial wrote one and is awaiting replays, but a lot of them are a bit dated. Check out the zerg and terran replay packs on TL's "This week in Replays". The matchup has a completely different flow from ZvP, but the common elements of "droning, teching, and expanding" remain.
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