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On May 21 2012 13:32 Hemingway wrote:
What's the advantage to going Mutas in ZvT rather than straight into Infestor/Ling and expanding more quickly once you have fungals ready to go? Even down in the lowly Silver league a scan will inevitably catch your spire before it finishes and you'll run into a mass of turrets by the time you reach their base. Is the investment in a handful of missile turrets really that big a deal?
The mutas arent a cheese or anything. You'll see a lot of zergs go mutas. You still see a lot of zergs go muta in zvt, and in my opinion, it seems they are more successful (im sorry, but everytime I see zvt where they go infestor, they lose, but then again, that's antiga or entombed, and then again, those maps youd always lose to T and mutas are really horrible on these maps so its probably more like zergs dont have a choice on that map).
WIth mutas you are forcing turrets, and keeping Terran stuck in his base. Mutas are very strong, if terran ever moves out before having like 3/3, tons of tanks, medivacs, and 2 thors made right before pushing, your 15-25 mutas with ling/bane just cleans everything up as the mutas snipe the tanks, and then add huge dps if he tries to kite your banes as the mutas just tear them apart while they are kiting or micro'ing.
They catch drops, and they force turrets instead of terran expanding quicker, or adding lots of rax so he can push earlier. Those missile turrets cost a lot, it forces T to stay in his base, while you tech up and expand everywhere. Then when he finally pushes, your mutas cut off reinforcements, and you can win the battle by cutting off reinforcements and then having a much larger army, OR by having higher tech (hive, upgrades, whatever) when he finally pushes and arrives off his 3 base push (same idea, you cut off reinforcements, delay terran, and force lots of defense while you tech up and macro up so that when he finally arrives, you have a better army).
Recently a style has come out (polt vs violet i think mlg just happened) where zergs just make 8-10 mutas, force terran to make defense preparing for mutas, and then techs hard to ultras and upgrades so when T arrives, it's mass ultras when T shouldnt be prepared for it. Same idea - make mutas forces T to make defenses, so when he arrives, you have bigger army.
I go mutas in all of my zvt, and I have a 70% win rate right now in 800 pts masters. From what I hear, they are becoming much less popular (monk told me 60% of people go infestors now?!), but that doesnt make them less viable, especially below pro level. I think you see less mutas really because of maps like antiga, cloud kingdom, entombed, where theres no airspace and muta harass is much less effective, but hell, just veto those maps.
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How do YOU deal with DT harass?
When a Protoss starts bringing DT randomly to bases, durring battles, what do you do? My first 2 instincts are to make 3 spines and 1-2 spores at each base, but that seeems excessive. I would preffer to have hotkey Zero be 1 Overseer and about 5 speed roaches, but that seems to sort of be a waste of supply...
What do you do?
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On May 21 2012 13:48 Belial88 wrote:
The mutas arent a cheese or anything. You'll see a lot of zergs go mutas. You still see a lot of zergs go muta in zvt, and in my opinion, it seems they are more successful (im sorry, but everytime I see zvt where they go infestor, they lose, but then again, that's antiga or entombed, and then again, those maps youd always lose to T and mutas are really horrible on these maps so its probably more like zergs dont have a choice on that map).
WIth mutas you are forcing turrets, and keeping Terran stuck in his base. Mutas are very strong, if terran ever moves out before having like 3/3, tons of tanks, medivacs, and 2 thors made right before pushing, your 15-25 mutas with ling/bane just cleans everything up as the mutas snipe the tanks, and then add huge dps if he tries to kite your banes as the mutas just tear them apart while they are kiting or micro'ing.
They catch drops, and they force turrets instead of terran expanding quicker, or adding lots of rax so he can push earlier. Those missile turrets cost a lot, it forces T to stay in his base, while you tech up and expand everywhere. Then when he finally pushes, your mutas cut off reinforcements, and you can win the battle by cutting off reinforcements and then having a much larger army, OR by having higher tech (hive, upgrades, whatever) when he finally pushes and arrives off his 3 base push (same idea, you cut off reinforcements, delay terran, and force lots of defense while you tech up and macro up so that when he finally arrives, you have a better army).
Recently a style has come out (polt vs violet i think mlg just happened) where zergs just make 8-10 mutas, force terran to make defense preparing for mutas, and then techs hard to ultras and upgrades so when T arrives, it's mass ultras when T shouldnt be prepared for it. Same idea - make mutas forces T to make defenses, so when he arrives, you have bigger army.
I go mutas in all of my zvt, and I have a 70% win rate right now in 800 pts masters. From what I hear, they are becoming much less popular (monk told me 60% of people go infestors now?!), but that doesnt make them less viable, especially below pro level. I think you see less mutas really because of maps like antiga, cloud kingdom, entombed, where theres no airspace and muta harass is much less effective, but hell, just veto those maps.
That makes plenty of sense. My issue then is that I haven't been continuing muta production beyond the first 12 or so, which obviously renders them less than useful as a containment device once the numbers dwindle. Do you know of any solid write-ups on playing mutas versus Terran (in terms of build timings, responses to Terran builds, transitioning, etc.)?
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How do YOU deal with DT harass?
When a Protoss starts bringing DT randomly to bases, durring battles, what do you do? My first 2 instincts are to make 3 spines and 1-2 spores at each base, but that seeems excessive. I would preffer to have hotkey Zero be 1 Overseer and about 5 speed roaches, but that seems to sort of be a waste of supply...
What do you do?
When Toss is set on 3 bases, I make a spore and 2 spines at each base. I may put the spines earlier if he's doing warp prism harass, I'll make the spore/spines later if the game is really aggressive (he has to deal with my muta harass, im massing roaches, etc). The more passive the game and toss is on 3 bases, more like for DTs, the more aggressive, the less likely (as he'll die if he tries teching to DT and you have 20 mutas and he has 10 stalkers). I'll also get spore+spine if I have an advantage, and he's on 3 bases (make sure he cant go desperate DTs to get back into the game).
2 spines and 1 spore is not a problem if you have lots of drones. In ZvP you tend to make way more drones than the other matchups because of how important static defense is in the match-up. I think a lot of zergs now go for 100 drones in zvp, it's okay to have 100 drones as long as toss isn't doing an extremely imminent push or the supply cap is starting to become an issue (ie he's 160+ supply, you kind of need more army). Going up to 100 drones really quickly then throwing down 30 spines is not uncommon, especially in zvp (zvz its less common due to larva inject and how aggressive the match-up is, and zvt it's less common because static defense isn't as useful and there isn't as much lulls like there are in zvp).
If you are having trouble with spine+spore, you probably aren't staying above 70 drones all game long. You need to make sure to replace lost drones, and stay above 70.
That makes plenty of sense. My issue then is that I haven't been continuing muta production beyond the first 12 or so, which obviously renders them less than useful as a containment device once the numbers dwindle. Do you know of any solid write-ups on playing mutas versus Terran (in terms of build timings, responses to Terran builds, transitioning, etc.)?
Yea, you need like 20+. If you are going to cut muta production, then it needs to be because you are teching rapidly (lots of ugprades with double evo, hive).
As for solid write-up.. i don't know. if Terran goes mech, go for roaches, otherwise, mutas are fine. Just get ~45 4xgas, then lair at 55, 3rd base (if you haven't taken it already and made a macro hatch at ~40 instead of a third), then get spire when lair is done and get mutas when you can. You want to transition out of them eventually, unless it's a really back and forth aggressive game, and go for hive when you can (probably around 20 mutas, or when your 4th is done). The point of mutas is to keep T in his base, once you ahve around 20 mutas, terran will either die or he'll survive on 3 bases, in which case you'll want to get hive and use the mutas to be safe against quick pushes and get hive as you keep him trapped in his base or own any push he does before he can handle 200/200 20 mutas, ling/bane (queue focus fire each tank, make sure banes dont blow up on tanks by boxing over them and move commanding them towards marines).
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On May 21 2012 13:53 CursOr wrote:
How do YOU deal with DT harass?
When a Protoss starts bringing DT randomly to bases, durring battles, what do you do? My first 2 instincts are to make 3 spines and 1-2 spores at each base, but that seeems excessive. I would preffer to have hotkey Zero be 1 Overseer and about 5 speed roaches, but that seems to sort of be a waste of supply...
What do you do?
Addendum: How do you deal with DT harass really late game...like 20 min when 5-6 dt's can literally wipe out entire bases SURROUNDED by 8-10 spines with an overseer overhead??
This is how I've lost all of my zvp's today and it's extremely frustrating thinking that there's nothing I can do except leave half my army at each base to fend off 5 ridiculous units, all while still having to deal with double robo colossi, archons, and a mothership...
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On May 21 2012 14:38 Amaterasu1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 13:53 CursOr wrote:
How do YOU deal with DT harass?
When a Protoss starts bringing DT randomly to bases, durring battles, what do you do? My first 2 instincts are to make 3 spines and 1-2 spores at each base, but that seeems excessive. I would preffer to have hotkey Zero be 1 Overseer and about 5 speed roaches, but that seems to sort of be a waste of supply...
What do you do? Addendum: How do you deal with DT harass really late game...like 20 min when 5-6 dt's can literally wipe out entire bases SURROUNDED by 8-10 spines with an overseer overhead?? This is how I've lost all of my zvp's today and it's extremely frustrating thinking that there's nothing I can do except leave half my army at each base to fend off 5 ridiculous units, all while still having to deal with double robo colossi, archons, and a mothership...
Huh if you really have 8-10 spines with an overseer overhead DT"s are not going to kill that base. You are either exaggerating or they are in a really bad position or he is making like 10+ dt's which isn't worth it since they should all die.
4 spines + an overseer at a base is all you need (have them in good spots so that they all hit the dt's if they attacked the hatchery for example).
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On May 21 2012 14:06 Hemingway wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 13:48 Belial88 wrote:
The mutas arent a cheese or anything. You'll see a lot of zergs go mutas. You still see a lot of zergs go muta in zvt, and in my opinion, it seems they are more successful (im sorry, but everytime I see zvt where they go infestor, they lose, but then again, that's antiga or entombed, and then again, those maps youd always lose to T and mutas are really horrible on these maps so its probably more like zergs dont have a choice on that map).
WIth mutas you are forcing turrets, and keeping Terran stuck in his base. Mutas are very strong, if terran ever moves out before having like 3/3, tons of tanks, medivacs, and 2 thors made right before pushing, your 15-25 mutas with ling/bane just cleans everything up as the mutas snipe the tanks, and then add huge dps if he tries to kite your banes as the mutas just tear them apart while they are kiting or micro'ing.
They catch drops, and they force turrets instead of terran expanding quicker, or adding lots of rax so he can push earlier. Those missile turrets cost a lot, it forces T to stay in his base, while you tech up and expand everywhere. Then when he finally pushes, your mutas cut off reinforcements, and you can win the battle by cutting off reinforcements and then having a much larger army, OR by having higher tech (hive, upgrades, whatever) when he finally pushes and arrives off his 3 base push (same idea, you cut off reinforcements, delay terran, and force lots of defense while you tech up and macro up so that when he finally arrives, you have a better army).
Recently a style has come out (polt vs violet i think mlg just happened) where zergs just make 8-10 mutas, force terran to make defense preparing for mutas, and then techs hard to ultras and upgrades so when T arrives, it's mass ultras when T shouldnt be prepared for it. Same idea - make mutas forces T to make defenses, so when he arrives, you have bigger army.
I go mutas in all of my zvt, and I have a 70% win rate right now in 800 pts masters. From what I hear, they are becoming much less popular (monk told me 60% of people go infestors now?!), but that doesnt make them less viable, especially below pro level. I think you see less mutas really because of maps like antiga, cloud kingdom, entombed, where theres no airspace and muta harass is much less effective, but hell, just veto those maps.
That makes plenty of sense. My issue then is that I haven't been continuing muta production beyond the first 12 or so, which obviously renders them less than useful as a containment device once the numbers dwindle. Do you know of any solid write-ups on playing mutas versus Terran (in terms of build timings, responses to Terran builds, transitioning, etc.)?
One thing I think you could add, is that many people choose to use infestors on certain maps, and mutas on others. I choose which i'm going to do before the game starts depending on the map.
Wide Maps - Good for infestors because of the open ground / Not "bad" for mutas necessarily.
Close Main, Nat, and Third - Good for infestors / Horrible for Mutas.
Small airspace - Bad for Mutas / No effect on infestor ( i guess it helps with drops)
Big Maps - Mutas are fast, the other armies are generally slower. More reaction time. It's harder for them to push out. / Big maps generally always will help zerg.
Here's a couple of examples from the current ladder pool:
Cloud Kingdom - Absolutely horrible for mutas. The main, nat, and third are all connected closely and there is no air space. You can't get to the main without going through the third or natural. I will always go infestors on this map. It's also has middle sized open areas which make zerg ground armies more potent (More area = More surround).
Another map similar to Cloud Kingdom would be Entombed Valley. They're very similar in that fashion. Mutas are even more on Entombed.
Shakuras Plateau - Quite good for mutas. It has a lot of airspace. The third can be taken closely but it doesn't cut off access to the main or the nat. You can attack any location because there is air space. Also, there is another another reason I like mutas on this map,, if you go infestor, terrans can easily build bunkers, set up siege tanks, and set up turrets in the middle of the map, and you can't do anything about it until broodlords are out. They can take half the map quite easily and slow push you while doing drops. The mutas let you put pressure back on, and pick off tanks and drops.
Tal'Darim Altar - This map is good for both. For Mutas, there is airspace enough to attack the main, nat, and third. The map is huge, so it allows mutas to hold back terrans for much longer because of the rush distance. It has many bonuses. On the flipside, the map is also very wide open, which is great for zergling infestor. Easy surrounds.
You can look at maps and decide if its open enough, has enough airspace, it large enough, etc... and decide which unit will fare better.
Just a note as to why the muta has gone out of favor for the infestor. A lot of the older maps had bases which were very spread out. Look at the old map pool, the thirds were in no way easy to take. Zerg's needed the mobility of the mutalisk to defend these bases which were so spread out. Thus, the infestor was not used (fungal growth also wasn't as good as it is today due to patch changes).
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On May 21 2012 08:36 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 20:59 Belial88 wrote:http://drop.sc/183624Hey so I had this really weird game. I feel like I lost because the guy was an idiot - like, he does a roach/ling all-in, but grabs a 2nd gas off 25 drones and makes a roach warren when he takes his natural. He just does this really bad build at the start, but I think this is all made up because of my bad macro (in part, because I was 'getting ready for the all-in by building spines, cutting drone production, and paying more of my attention to scouting rather than macro) and him taking a super fast third. He made a TON of lings at the start of the game too. He just like... played like so bad, it was good, because he took a super fast third with the scouting he was able to deny. his build just made no sense at all (oh yea, he goes super fast lair... but he's going roaches, which again, makes no sense at all). So I guess his bad macro is okay because he takes a faster third than me, and I didn't get ahead because I macro'd poorly because I thought he was roach/ling all-inning (and really, he did do a roach/ling all-in... he made a ton of roaches, no drones.. he just never attacked). So I take my third at about the normal timing, but by that time his was already done halfway, like at 8:00 /~50 supply. So whatever. So we both go towards 3 base, and I'm not too sure if I can drone too hard or not. I mean, if he just pumps lots of roaches and I go towards infestors, I'll die. But if it's a macro game, I need quicker infestors. And that's what happens - it's a macro game, and he gets quick infestors, and my infestors are late. Then, he goes super fast hive. It makes zero sense. And, he's at like only 60 drones. So what I do in response, is take my fourth, and plan to do a roach/infestor attack - but lo and behold, he attacks me with roach/infestor. So I think he's ahead because of my bad macro earlier (but i think our macro was like equal, right?). I'm just a bit confused here - should I be going infestors immediately when it's 3 base vs 3 base game, or what? Someone who goes third, and stops at 50 drones and masses roaches, will kill you right? Then he attacks me, with roaches, like 2-5 infestors, and 8 bl and 6 corruptors, to my like less roaches, 6 bl, 4 corruptors, but 15 infestors. I guess the moral I learn here is that infestors are horrible against broodlords (i mean I knew that, but I thought bl/corruptor > bl/infestor > roach/bl... and you want lots of infesotrs in roach/infestor vs roach/infestor battles right?). The game ends up a tie. I think he could have won if he just killed off his own bulidings to reset the timer and sniped my overlords with his corruptors that were spewing creep to keep my last buildings, 3 spines, alive, and just transfuse so the 6 ITs I could pop from my 5 infestors that i had to keep popping to protect my overlords, every minute, so that the spines would die and I'd lose, but whatever. I just need someone else to look at this game. it's just such a weird game. He never made any drones. I think I even suffered from going up to 88 drones vs his like 60 and that was the time when we were both near maxed but him having 20 more supply in army due to no drones. I only went to 88 drones because I was specifically planning to make 20 spines with them (a recent strategy of mine, in all matchups, is to go up to 100 drones, then make 30 spines, in the late mid-game while transitioning into bl). But he like stayed at 60 drones on 3 bases (i do recall nestea saying never make more than 65 drones in zvz though). Just a really, weird game, and a really, sub-optimal opening from an opponent that didnt make sense. I even asked him "why are you going 14/14 when it's close by air spawn metalopolis'. like wtf. On a side note, I think im a bit lost on broodlords in zvz. Whenever i go broodlrods in zvz, i get owned by mass roach counterattacks. Then, whenever goes super fast 3 base broodlords, I lose and I dont know why, when I try to go roach/infestor/corruptor vs his army. I'm just a bit confused on the dynamics of broodlords vs roach counterattacks in zvz. I either get owned by fast broodlords and can't handle them, or i get owned by mass roach counterattacks when i go broodlords. I know like, in a straight up fight, pure bl/corruptor > bl/infestor > roach/infestor, and that's sort of the general tech progression (going pure bl/corruptor 3/3 is like nearly never seen, as in 6+ bases mined out situation, ive only had a game go like that twice - you have so many broodlords that any infestor is instantly vaporized). But roach counterattacks seem so damn strong when you are on bl tech, but at the same time, I'm not sure what to do when someone gets quick roach/infestor/bl army out. bleh. That was actually a really cool late game. Your crisis management needs work though. A single overseer over your spines at each side of the map would have won you the game, since you let him burrow all over the place and snipe your hatcheries. Secondly, your infestor control/positioning. Whyyyyy. 1. Neural Parasite. Why Zergs don't get this in late game BL vs BL is beyond me. 2. He engaged at you. This is what you want. On metalopolis, you can put your infestors at your main high ground, and some with the rest of your army. His BLs are going to sit behind his roaches. You could have fungal'ed all of them, spam ITs under them and won, if you had positioned properly. Now, you played against a Zerg that was terrible. Really, I don't know what he was doing. But since he was so bad, you couldn't read him, and therefore let him get away with making bad decisions. Like his opener. 14/14 on close air metal? Makes no sense, but okay. Now, your macro suffers, and you float minerals, letting him get away with having less drones. Then you don't scout his fast third because for some reason you don't have a ling there, and you overprepare for a roach ling all in that never came. You don't need that much against roach ling with no banes, all you need is roach bane and a few lings. The entire point of going hatch first is to have a higher drone count than 14/14, but again, your crisis management, especially when you're not sure what your opponent is doing, is troubling, and led to your opponent having even more drones than you and a much faster third, and faster ups. If he had just gone 200/200 2/2 ups roach timing, you would have just died. He then went 3 base roach/infestor. The only reason this worked is because you were playing catch up, therefore you couldn't just max 2/2 roaches and kill him with a good spread. So your only chance there WAS going infestor, you should have immediately put down a pit upon lair completion. Now late game, you honestly let tiny groups of burrow roaches completely own you. You knew he had burrow, why don't you have overseers on each lane? It's metal, the simplest possible map to stop harassment because you already know where it's coming from.
I dont think I lost bases because of his burrowed infestors, and I actually had spine+spore walls set up (like the spine+spore wall at the choke by fourth to my third, and into my main). I lost bases because of his mass roaches, he just stomped my army at that big first battle. That was kind of when i 'lost' i think. I droned too hard, I went to 88 drones (i was planning on throwing down mass spines, as you saw I did, but he hit right before I turned those 88 drones into 75 with 13 spines). Which was weird - i figured him going hive, he wouldn't be able to be aggressive. So I get I lost there, but I also figured when I got my bl/infestor army, i'd win. but i didn't. I guess roach/infestor wins if you have more roaches vs the other roach/infestor army, but if you ahve broodlords... roach/bl beats infestor/bl?
I used to NP broodlords, back when it was range 9. it doesn't work anymore. Just like trying to FB a BL/Infestor army doesn't really work. The broodlords have 13 range, any attempt to NP will get owned, and even if you get it off, they just FF the NP'ing infestor real quick. Not to mention those mass roaches there.
Couldnt really make mass IT spam work because he had so many roaches. If you see, I actually did spam IT (i think i should hafve spammed them under his corruptors though, not his BL). his roaches made short work of them.
I tried to scout his fast third, but he had so many lings, he killed the first 2 scouting lings actually. I proceeded to send lings a short while later, which was when I foudn out about the third. I didn't think he'd take a third when i saw how many roaches he made.
I dont think the burrow is what killed me - i had an overseer and spore at each lane. He had 40 roaches to my 22 i think in that final battle, and he only busted through my 22 roaches + infestors + spines because he had a ton of energy on his infestors.
I guess what really killed me is not getting infestation pit quick enough. But I actually just played a game tonight, where we both went fast third, droned up our thirds, and he went hydras while I went infestors. There was no disparity, we were both even throughout the game (i was slightly ahead in drones in mid, then in late I think he made a few more drones but whatever) - and he killed me while my infestors were popping out!
This game (the one we're talking about) made me think you avhe to get infestors asap when getting your third. But the following game I just played, makes me think no, never get infestors quickly, get hydras instead and then attack and get infestors (so in the game above, if I had gotten hydras instead, I would have attacked when his army was too small).
http://drop.sc/184176
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On May 21 2012 14:45 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 14:38 Amaterasu1234 wrote:On May 21 2012 13:53 CursOr wrote:
How do YOU deal with DT harass?
When a Protoss starts bringing DT randomly to bases, durring battles, what do you do? My first 2 instincts are to make 3 spines and 1-2 spores at each base, but that seeems excessive. I would preffer to have hotkey Zero be 1 Overseer and about 5 speed roaches, but that seems to sort of be a waste of supply...
What do you do? Addendum: How do you deal with DT harass really late game...like 20 min when 5-6 dt's can literally wipe out entire bases SURROUNDED by 8-10 spines with an overseer overhead?? This is how I've lost all of my zvp's today and it's extremely frustrating thinking that there's nothing I can do except leave half my army at each base to fend off 5 ridiculous units, all while still having to deal with double robo colossi, archons, and a mothership... Huh if you really have 8-10 spines with an overseer overhead DT"s are not going to kill that base. You are either exaggerating or they are in a really bad position or he is making like 10+ dt's which isn't worth it since they should all die. 4 spines + an overseer at a base is all you need (have them in good spots so that they all hit the dt's if they attacked the hatchery for example).
As a bonus, putting the spines flush against the hatchery denies surface area and makes it much harder for mass zealot/DT warp-ins to snipe a hatchery while attempting to ignore static defense.
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On May 20 2012 20:59 Belial88 wrote:http://drop.sc/183624Hey so I had this really weird game. I feel like I lost because the guy was an idiot - like, he does a roach/ling all-in, but grabs a 2nd gas off 25 drones and makes a roach warren when he takes his natural. He just does this really bad build at the start, but I think this is all made up because of my bad macro (in part, because I was 'getting ready for the all-in by building spines, cutting drone production, and paying more of my attention to scouting rather than macro) and him taking a super fast third. He made a TON of lings at the start of the game too. He just like... played like so bad, it was good, because he took a super fast third with the scouting he was able to deny. his build just made no sense at all (oh yea, he goes super fast lair... but he's going roaches, which again, makes no sense at all). So I guess his bad macro is okay because he takes a faster third than me, and I didn't get ahead because I macro'd poorly because I thought he was roach/ling all-inning (and really, he did do a roach/ling all-in... he made a ton of roaches, no drones.. he just never attacked). So I take my third at about the normal timing, but by that time his was already done halfway, like at 8:00 /~50 supply. So whatever. So we both go towards 3 base, and I'm not too sure if I can drone too hard or not. I mean, if he just pumps lots of roaches and I go towards infestors, I'll die. But if it's a macro game, I need quicker infestors. And that's what happens - it's a macro game, and he gets quick infestors, and my infestors are late. Then, he goes super fast hive. It makes zero sense. And, he's at like only 60 drones. So what I do in response, is take my fourth, and plan to do a roach/infestor attack - but lo and behold, he attacks me with roach/infestor. So I think he's ahead because of my bad macro earlier (but i think our macro was like equal, right?). I'm just a bit confused here - should I be going infestors immediately when it's 3 base vs 3 base game, or what? Someone who goes third, and stops at 50 drones and masses roaches, will kill you right? Then he attacks me, with roaches, like 2-5 infestors, and 8 bl and 6 corruptors, to my like less roaches, 6 bl, 4 corruptors, but 15 infestors. I guess the moral I learn here is that infestors are horrible against broodlords (i mean I knew that, but I thought bl/corruptor > bl/infestor > roach/bl... and you want lots of infesotrs in roach/infestor vs roach/infestor battles right?). The game ends up a tie. I think he could have won if he just killed off his own bulidings to reset the timer and sniped my overlords with his corruptors that were spewing creep to keep my last buildings, 3 spines, alive, and just transfuse so the 6 ITs I could pop from my 5 infestors that i had to keep popping to protect my overlords, every minute, so that the spines would die and I'd lose, but whatever. I just need someone else to look at this game. it's just such a weird game. He never made any drones. I think I even suffered from going up to 88 drones vs his like 60 and that was the time when we were both near maxed but him having 20 more supply in army due to no drones. I only went to 88 drones because I was specifically planning to make 20 spines with them (a recent strategy of mine, in all matchups, is to go up to 100 drones, then make 30 spines, in the late mid-game while transitioning into bl). But he like stayed at 60 drones on 3 bases (i do recall nestea saying never make more than 65 drones in zvz though). Just a really, weird game, and a really, sub-optimal opening from an opponent that didnt make sense. I even asked him "why are you going 14/14 when it's close by air spawn metalopolis'. like wtf. On a side note, I think im a bit lost on broodlords in zvz. Whenever i go broodlrods in zvz, i get owned by mass roach counterattacks. Then, whenever goes super fast 3 base broodlords, I lose and I dont know why, when I try to go roach/infestor/corruptor vs his army. I'm just a bit confused on the dynamics of broodlords vs roach counterattacks in zvz. I either get owned by fast broodlords and can't handle them, or i get owned by mass roach counterattacks when i go broodlords. I know like, in a straight up fight, pure bl/corruptor > bl/infestor > roach/infestor, and that's sort of the general tech progression (going pure bl/corruptor 3/3 is like nearly never seen, as in 6+ bases mined out situation, ive only had a game go like that twice - you have so many broodlords that any infestor is instantly vaporized). But roach counterattacks seem so damn strong when you are on bl tech, but at the same time, I'm not sure what to do when someone gets quick roach/infestor/bl army out. bleh.
So after your rude comment I decided to give your game a watch. It doesn't take a genius to see why you should have lost/had a really hard time.
You say 12 hatch is a superior opening and gives you more drones than 14/14. your opponent didn't even pressure you at all yet you didn't have any drone advantage. Sometimes you'd have 3 drones more for a couple of seconds, but most of the time it was infact he who was ahead in drone numbers as well as in general supply. Your queens were stacking energy right from the start. You had an overseer which sat in the same place for 45 minutes. Besides a lot of macro issues, the real issue was your decision making.
In all the battles your opponent had about 20 roaches more with equal upgrades. Seems quite obvious who's going to win. You decide to go up to about 90 drones. But never go back down to 60 even though you had about 3 k minerals. You had changelings with him and could easily spot his army size, which was considerably larger than yours. His attack was an imminent threat, yet for some reason you decide to stay with 90 drones.
In one of the last battles with both having broodlords, you had 15 infestors more, your positioning of the infestors was rather poorly which resulted in a bunch of infested terrans doing nothing, too many infestors just dying and because again he had 20 more roaches and even more broodlords than you he could just walk all over your army.
At one time you even thought it was a good idea to use up 40 or so of your larvae all into zerglings while your bases were getting raped left and right. If the other guy was a bit better he could have just stopped all those zerglings with the roaches he had camped up there and could have used those roaches raping your base a lot more effectively. Let's use the slowest unit in game to defend vs one of the fastest unit in the game while he can easily roll over the yet remaining static defenses I still have.
Then when you are finally getting the upperhand, you feel like it's a good idea to attack his natural, where no resources are left to be mined, even though you were not mining any resources yourself. Your army was crushing his reinforcements, so what do you do? instead of eliminating his mining bases go after natural which took you a long long time.
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So after your rude comment I decided to give your game a watch. It doesn't take a genius to see why you should have lost/had a really hard time.
Thanks. Nothing I say is meant to be personal, I just have a very strong view of this game, and when I see people who are 'wrong', I say what I feel. That said, I've called some pretty high level players wrong and looked like an ass. I still probably do.
You say 12 hatch is a superior opening and gives you more drones than 14/14.
I never said anything about 12 hatch. That would make no sense at all.
I said hatch first 'beats' 14/14, as in it gets a lead against it. This isn't controversial at all.. it's accepted by everyone that hatch first is ahead of 14/14 which is ahead of 10 pool which bo wins against hatch first. You'll hear casters, everyone, say in games "oh look he went hatch first vs the 14 pool of the opponent, he's going to have the lead". It's not a bo win or anything. Hatch first just has the lead against 14/14. That doesn't mean you can't use 14/14 aggression, or just better macro or play, to close that 4-5 drone lead that hatch first has.
your opponent didn't even pressure you at all yet you didn't have any drone advantage.
Well 3 things.
1. I'm a scrub, i don't think there's any denying that 800 points masters is actually pretty low.
2. If you watch the harvest count throughout, you'll notice I'm a step ahead most of the time. There's a short period where a larva inject of his will get ahead of me momentarily, and then my inject will pop and will be ahead of him. Save for these multiple ~5 second intervals, I was generally always ahead in drones.
3, and this is the big one, like I said, I scouted him going roach/ling all-in. He had 26 drones, he made roaches stupidly early, he didn't take gas at his nat (i was confused he had a 2nd gas, he was doing a weird roach/ling all-in where he got +1, which is just stupid actually because it hits later, and it was even stupider when he didn't attack). I really just fell victim to this guys bad play. And that' fine, I learn from it - the only reason the game didn't play out 'like it should' was because my macro sucks. I banked almost 1k minerals at one point ~60 supply, my third was late (because i saw how many roach/ling he made though...), I made 3 spines, at about 40 supply I just stopped droning.
Look - everything this guy did, indicated a roach/ling all-in. He stopped droning at like 26, he made a ton of lings early on, then a ton of roaches. His build made no sense, because I was going hatch first and it was obvious I wasn't making many units and I was macro'ing. He literally did a roachling all-in, except didn't move out. I was safe against this roach/ling all-in by macro, I had a superior drone count in the mid-game, allowing me to get 3 spines and plenty of defense in time, which I did. But this, along with my weak macro, just lost me the advantage I should have had. The game was just weird, but I should have probably had 10 more drones than I actually did.
You had an overseer which sat in the same place for 45 minutes.
... which constantly dropped changelings into his base, and was hotkeyed to 3. I don't see a problem with this, i found a spot he lacked vision in his base. I regularly do this in all my match-ups - find a nice, comfy spot for an overseer in their base, that they don't have a building or vision at, and drop changelings regularly. If you watch that overseer, it never reached 200 energy. I was dropping changelings all game long with it to scout.
My problem was not scouting his army size after we both took our thirds. I think I overmade units, and didn't see him teching so hard to infestors. This is a problem I've learned from watching the rep multiple times myself, and now will priortize army scouting, then scouting tech.
In all the battles your opponent had about 20 roaches more with equal upgrades. Seems quite obvious who's going to win. You decide to go up to about 90 drones. But never go back down to 60 even though you had about 3 k minerals. You had changelings with him and could easily spot his army size, which was considerably larger than yours. His attack was an imminent threat, yet for some reason you decide to stay with 90 drones.
Yes, I was really fucking confused.
The timing when I went up to 90 drones, was because, with that cute little overseer, I saw him morphing a super fast 3 base hive. I did not think that he would be stupid and go hive when he couldn't afford any hive tech - the only way to afford hive tech on 3 base, is if you make zero units. There's no way you can make 50 roaches, some infestors, hive, on 3 base, AND get broodlords or ultras or even 3/3. Apparently, he just morphed hive for the hell of it, and it caught me off guard as I 'responded' to him teching by droning up to 90 drones.
My plan also, was to morph those 20 excess drones immediately into spines. You can see I actually did this - as soon as the drones arrived to where they were rallied, my new 4th, I morphed about 10 spines. This brought me down to about 88 (i mad a few more than 90 drones actually). If the guy had actually attacked about 20 seconds later, when all of the spines were done, instead of half done, he would have been stopped cold. Instead, he teched to hive while massing roaches, off 3 base, which makes no sense.
It was a failure on my part to scout his army size, instead of his tech. And... just the guy playing like an idiot. I don't know. Part of it is just dont play idiots. And I rarely play idiots at my level, I think. but my macro is still so subpar, that idiotic play sometimes go unpunished, as was the case in this game. if I had 10 more drones when I thought his roach/ling was coming, and then 20 more drones to that third, I would have been able to afford way more roaches and infestors, I would have had infestor tech earlier, which meant 10 full energy infestors instead oflike 6 half energy infestors, when he attacked. And then, it would have been my 5 bases to his 3 and hive, with me on mass infestors to take down his smaller army.
I didn't have changelings on his army. At one point i sent 2 towards his army, but he immediately sniped them.
In one of the last battles with both having broodlords, you had 15 infestors more, your positioning of the infestors was rather poorly which resulted in a bunch of infested terrans doing nothing, too many infestors just dying and because again he had 20 more roaches and even more broodlords than you he could just walk all over your army.
I had completely lost the game by this point. I agree that I should have retreated with my infestors earlier. I watched in amazement as I left that battle with only 2 infestors when I could have easily run away. I should have run away with my pitiful bl army too. I had about 20 spines at that point in the game too. If that battle had occured by the spines, or if I just let the third die so I could get more corruptors and Bl into that army, I probably would have won the fight, actually.
I thought the high ground gave me more advantage than it did, but I didn't have many roaches at all so high ground and concave weren't relevant, and he had 6 broodlords which clearly give vision of the high ground too. One nice play he did, was actually flanking my army with a small roach force, which killed all my infestors. I'll give him credit for that.
I dont know what I was thinking in that battle. I spammed IT and I thought they would have been more effective than they were, but I just didnt ahve enough roach support I guess.
At one time you even thought it was a good idea to use up 40 or so of your larvae all into zerglings while your bases were getting raped left and right. If the other guy was a bit better he could have just stopped all those zerglings with the roaches he had camped up there and could have used those roaches raping your base a lot more effectively. Let's use the slowest unit in game to defend vs one of the fastest unit in the game while he can easily roll over the yet remaining static defenses I still have.
what would you have had me turn them into? He had an exposed base, i needed to stop his mining because I knew the game would be a base trade, and I had a superior army of pure BL/corruptor with a few full energy infsetors. I knew if I could stop his mining, I would win the game. As it turned out, this strategy got me the draw. If he had that fourth, or retook it, i definitely would have lost.
I wonder, maybe i should have used those lings defensively though. think that would helped? those roach counterattacks just sucked, 15 broodlords and 10 corruptors and 6 infestors just can't deal with 10 roaches going to each base.
I have a problem when going broodlords that I get owned by roach counterattacks, and when I face quick broodlords, I get face stomped and can't seem to get counterattacks working for me. It's something that I admit I have no fucking understanding of at all. I understand straight up fight vs fight, that pure 15+ broodlord/corruptor beats bl/infestor beats roach/bl/infestor beats roach/infestor, but with all the coutnerattacking, im really not sure of the dynamics of when are roaches better than broodlords, what scenarios they work in, et cetera. I'm quite a passive player, I tend to macro hard and throw down a shitton of spines, so I probably have a lack of experience in such kind of play.
Then when you are finally getting the upperhand, you feel like it's a good idea to attack his natural, where no resources are left to be mined, even though you were not mining any resources yourself. Your army was crushing his reinforcements, so what do you do? instead of eliminating his mining bases go after natural which took you a long long time.
He was mining gas from it, which was the problem. I dont care about many minerals he had. And i was going for his tech. I was in a desperate position, there wasn't really any way to win vs an unending stream of corruptors vs 15 broodlords, 8 corruptors, and a few full energy infestors, but I just completely out-micro'd him as he kept insisiting on sending groups of 10 corruptors to stack up and die to chain FG. I believe I did go for hs mining base, and was pulled back by counterattacks, and then came back to go for his tech?
Maybe you are right though, I should have gone for that mining base. It was really well fortified though, byt he time I kill it, he's taken more bases.
I'll rewatch with your analysis though. I appreciate your input, I don't mean to sound like I'm rejecting it, but that is just the reasoning behind the decision making I did. I think after watching and studying that game, I've learned my lesson, and how to deal with 'bad' play, by just macro'ing better and not focusing so hard on scouting like I tend to do.
I mean, i think anyone else would have done the same thing. Like, they would prepare for an obvious roach/ling all-in when they saw no drones and so many roaches made so early on, and so many lings made early on. I think the only reason I fell behind against it, was because my macro stagnated as I was overly cocky and confident that I'd hold his all-in with ease, and get way ahead. But he didn't attack, I just let my macro fall enough so that his could catch up, and then he had the macro lead in a macro game.
I dont know. he just did a roach/ling all-in but then didnt attack and took his third. How am I supposed to know that I should probably drone hardcore? It's not exactly intuitive to drone up hardcore when you see someone go 4 gate, you throw down a ton of defenses, like a shitton of defenses, and then they expand (except you cant see it because he had lings to deny my scouts and you cant have an overlord over there like you can over toss natural) and think ezpz, but then you just fall behind.
ugh.
I think this is the fix for that:
Instead of sending my 4th overlord in front of my base, I'll send it to my opponents third. Then, I'll send my 5th overlord in front of my nat. I dont really need to have vision right out front my base, I can tell what they are doing by the stream of units coming out of their natural...
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So anyways to bring up a topic I've stated multiple times now.
http://drop.sc/184176
Not much reason to watch the rep, here's what happened:
Standard macro mirror game, we both take standard fast ~45 thirds, and drone up our third a bit.
The only difference in the game is he goes hydras, and I go infestors.
And he procedes to crush me with a roach + ~10 hydra attack that hits about 10 seconds before my infestors pop.
So.... this leaves me asking... when you both go fast thirds and it's a macro game, should you go infestors asap, or should you go for hydras? Or maybe it depends on the map (eg smaller map that's wider open, hydras, larger map with chokes, you are 'safer' to go infestors).
I'm just thoroughly confused on the role of the hydra in zvz. I see some pros get them, some don't. Some will even add hydras to their roach/infestor army, and some go pure roach/infestor. I just dont get what's better. I kind of figure roach/infestor beats roach/hydra/infestor for value and in general. But there's clearly this timing where infestors won't be out in time. I guess if this guy went pure roach he would have owned me too, but here's the thing I think where hydras have merit -
If the opponent goes mass roach, you defend with roach/hydra. If the opponent goes infestors, you attack and do damage with roach/hydra that you can just get later infestors with a slight lead.
ugh.
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On May 22 2012 14:28 Belial88 wrote:So anyways to bring up a topic I've stated multiple times now. http://drop.sc/184176Not much reason to watch the rep, here's what happened: Standard macro mirror game, we both take standard fast ~45 thirds, and drone up our third a bit. The only difference in the game is he goes hydras, and I go infestors. And he procedes to crush me with a roach + ~10 hydra attack that hits about 10 seconds before my infestors pop. So.... this leaves me asking... when you both go fast thirds and it's a macro game, should you go infestors asap, or should you go for hydras? Or maybe it depends on the map (eg smaller map that's wider open, hydras, larger map with chokes, you are 'safer' to go infestors). I'm just thoroughly confused on the role of the hydra in zvz. I see some pros get them, some don't. Some will even add hydras to their roach/infestor army, and some go pure roach/infestor. I just dont get what's better. I kind of figure roach/infestor beats roach/hydra/infestor for value and in general. But there's clearly this timing where infestors won't be out in time. I guess if this guy went pure roach he would have owned me too, but here's the thing I think where hydras have merit - If the opponent goes mass roach, you defend with roach/hydra. If the opponent goes infestors, you attack and do damage with roach/hydra that you can just get later infestors with a slight lead. ugh.
You should always go hydra's imo. Roach/hydra start off is much stronger then roach/infestor by a long shot. With infestors, you need about 6-8 or so before they become better then just roach/hydra. I have found starting off roach/hydra far superior and then adding in infestors then starting roach/infestor. I remember killing zergs who started roach/infestor when starting off roach/hydra myself because he only had 4 infestors and once those run out of energy roach/hydra just crushes pure roaches. If there are spines, then it is a different story 
Also no roach/hydra/infestor will CRUSH just roach/infestor. I have never seen a player who went roach/infestor beat (when they dont' engage in a bad spot or something) roach/hydra/infestor. Roach/hydra/infestor is way, way superior to just roach/infestor.
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On May 22 2012 14:28 Belial88 wrote:So anyways to bring up a topic I've stated multiple times now. http://drop.sc/184176Not much reason to watch the rep, here's what happened: Standard macro mirror game, we both take standard fast ~45 thirds, and drone up our third a bit. The only difference in the game is he goes hydras, and I go infestors. And he procedes to crush me with a roach + ~10 hydra attack that hits about 10 seconds before my infestors pop. So.... this leaves me asking... when you both go fast thirds and it's a macro game, should you go infestors asap, or should you go for hydras? Or maybe it depends on the map (eg smaller map that's wider open, hydras, larger map with chokes, you are 'safer' to go infestors). I'm just thoroughly confused on the role of the hydra in zvz. I see some pros get them, some don't. Some will even add hydras to their roach/infestor army, and some go pure roach/infestor. I just dont get what's better. I kind of figure roach/infestor beats roach/hydra/infestor for value and in general. But there's clearly this timing where infestors won't be out in time. I guess if this guy went pure roach he would have owned me too, but here's the thing I think where hydras have merit - If the opponent goes mass roach, you defend with roach/hydra. If the opponent goes infestors, you attack and do damage with roach/hydra that you can just get later infestors with a slight lead. ugh.
Off of fast third I tend to go mass roach because it saves gas, and it secures a faster fourth base, as the army is more robust up to max than either hydra or infestor.
As for hydra vs infestor, I think a lot of it is upgrades. If you're going double upgrades, hydras will benefit more, as they take damage more often than infestors would, and they're slightly easier gas wise while going double ups.
Something else to consider is that if your opponent is going double upgrades his carapace will be good against rapid attacking of the hydras, but worse vs the fungal growth.
These are just the logistics, in the end it comes down to preference based off of what you read from your opponent.
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On May 22 2012 14:47 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:28 Belial88 wrote:So anyways to bring up a topic I've stated multiple times now. http://drop.sc/184176Not much reason to watch the rep, here's what happened: Standard macro mirror game, we both take standard fast ~45 thirds, and drone up our third a bit. The only difference in the game is he goes hydras, and I go infestors. And he procedes to crush me with a roach + ~10 hydra attack that hits about 10 seconds before my infestors pop. So.... this leaves me asking... when you both go fast thirds and it's a macro game, should you go infestors asap, or should you go for hydras? Or maybe it depends on the map (eg smaller map that's wider open, hydras, larger map with chokes, you are 'safer' to go infestors). I'm just thoroughly confused on the role of the hydra in zvz. I see some pros get them, some don't. Some will even add hydras to their roach/infestor army, and some go pure roach/infestor. I just dont get what's better. I kind of figure roach/infestor beats roach/hydra/infestor for value and in general. But there's clearly this timing where infestors won't be out in time. I guess if this guy went pure roach he would have owned me too, but here's the thing I think where hydras have merit - If the opponent goes mass roach, you defend with roach/hydra. If the opponent goes infestors, you attack and do damage with roach/hydra that you can just get later infestors with a slight lead. ugh. You should always go hydra's imo. Roach/hydra start off is much stronger then roach/infestor by a long shot. With infestors, you need about 6-8 or so before they become better then just roach/hydra. I have found starting off roach/hydra far superior and then adding in infestors then starting roach/infestor. I remember killing zergs who started roach/infestor when starting off roach/hydra myself because he only had 4 infestors and once those run out of energy roach/hydra just crushes pure roaches. If there are spines, then it is a different story Also no roach/hydra/infestor will CRUSH just roach/infestor. I have never seen a player who went roach/infestor beat (when they dont' engage in a bad spot or something) roach/hydra/infestor. Roach/hydra/infestor is way, way superior to just roach/infestor.
very interesting topic, i also think that hydras are the better choice.
would be nice to find some replays / vods of pros in this scenario.
i remember ret going hydra vs his opponent who went infestor on antiga after they both secured a third and just demolishing his opponent, but i can't remember what tournament or opponent it was.
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Off of fast third I tend to go mass roach because it saves gas, and it secures a faster fourth base, as the army is more robust up to max than either hydra or infestor.
I do this as well. I like using the mobility of mass roach to take a faster 4th base, and get infestors later. If he goes fast infestor, he can't move out until he has 6-8 infestors or a massive energy stockpile or I surround/flank him or even counterattack and snipe a base.
Should this actually work, or have I just been getting lucky with it?
I understand that roach/hydra outperforms mass roach in a direct fight, but I try to take advantage of the mobility of roaches.
I have always drooled over the idea of going roach/speedbane when my opponent goes hydra before infestor, but I haven't tried putting it into action very much. I went through a roach/bane drop phase in zvz for a while with moderate success, but it wasn't very consistent.
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zvz can be so precarious, especially roach battles (having 2-0 vs 1-0 is just totally unforgiving), so while there are many exmaples of roach vs roach/hydra, roach/hydra vs roach/infestor, roach/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor, the results are never consistent with unit composition because so many other factors are at play.
I've seen roach/infestor own roach/hydra, as well as roach/hydra/infestor. I've seen it the other way around too. I believe Sheth goes infestor off 3 base, and then gets hydras afterwards.
So I could never tell what was better, and in 800 points masters, or anything lower than that really (i mean i used to be bronze, but infestors became popular when i was probably diamond), EVERYONE goes infestors and NO ONE makes hydras. In can literally pull up 5 replays right now of the last week where the opponent got his third, and went roach/infestor, and never threw down a hydra den. Hell, I've never made a hydra den. The only time I make a hydra den is when I go fast third vs 2 base lair mass speed roach, which I've actually started skipping hydras against because I find roaches and defensive posturing more than enough.
i remember ret going hydra vs his opponent who went infestor on antiga after they both secured a third and just demolishing his opponent, but i can't remember what tournament or opponent it was.
i mean ive seen just as many games where the roach/infestor guy demolished the roach/hydra opponent.
There just seem to be too many factors at play, and composition is really secondary to good macro and game play. ZvZ is such a wild match-up, even most pros seem to completely not understand it (i mean really, no one 4 gates anymore, but we still see 14/14 ling/bane all-ins? Seriously?).
I have always drooled over the idea of going roach/speedbane when my opponent goes hydra before infestor, but I haven't tried putting it into action very much. I went through a roach/bane drop phase in zvz for a while with moderate success, but it wasn't very consistent.
A long time ago, a pro zerg tried to make that work. Antiga shipyards, i imagine when the map first came out, top left vs bottom right. One guy is going roach/speedbane, the other is going roach/hydra. The roach/hydra guy just simply stopped making hydras, and roaches are way better than speedbanes for basically the same cost. The first battle was a little scary, I imagine, for the roach/hydra guy, when he saw 30 speedbanes coming after him, but he just did a very basic split, like just grabbed half his roaches and moved them to the side a bit, nothing super impressive, backed up a bit (and yea I think his hydras died off), and then relied back forth immediately with mass roach and owned the guy.
Suffice to say, he made him look like a joke. I really wish I could remember the game... i definitely recall the guy doing the roach/speedbane was like an obvious code a sort of guy, he's probably not even around anymore. Someone like bbongbbong... if your interested i can see if i can find it.
I do this as well. I like using the mobility of mass roach to take a faster 4th base, and get infestors later. If he goes fast infestor, he can't move out until he has 6-8 infestors or a massive energy stockpile or I surround/flank him or even counterattack and snipe a base.
I'm assuming the idea is with roach/hydra, deny the fourth of the opponent (maybe even third), and force him to lose lots of his pure roach army while roach/hydra guy goes infestors and can afford to be cost inefficient.
But yea, infestors are slow. It seems in the lower levels, like where I am at, people are bad at macro, and too passive with their armies, and too dumb to understand timings, so everyone goes 3 base, then infestor, then mass roach/infestor. All my games are like that (better than diamond where everyone goes 2 base infestor lol). And we can get away with it because people dont macro well enough or are too passive to punish the infestor play.
thanks blade5555 for your answer. I probably lost that game to macro (he had way more roaches than me at the same time, and i lost a few roaches trying to pressure someone who has twice the army size, that sucked).
Anyone want to give a stab to my other question?
How to use broodlords in zvz? When to go for them? What do you do against quick broodlords, what do you do against someone massing roach counterattacks against you when you have bl (i know, put 2 and 2 together right, but it seems to be much more complicated than that, otherwise I'd never fucking lose to quick broodlords and always lose to mass roach when going broodlords).
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On May 22 2012 16:53 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +i remember ret going hydra vs his opponent who went infestor on antiga after they both secured a third and just demolishing his opponent, but i can't remember what tournament or opponent it was. i mean ive seen just as many games where the roach/infestor guy demolished the roach/hydra opponent.
could you provide vods or replays of the games you remember?
it would be interesting to look at games where this hydra, roach or infestor choice comes in to play. the game i was talking about was not really meant as an argument either way, but it was the only game that came to mind.
i tried to find the game i was thinking about, but i had no luck.
i guess any zvz without muta that goes past 2 base is relevant, but that leaves out quite a lot of games.
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On May 21 2012 14:38 Amaterasu1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 13:53 CursOr wrote:
How do YOU deal with DT harass?
When a Protoss starts bringing DT randomly to bases, durring battles, what do you do? My first 2 instincts are to make 3 spines and 1-2 spores at each base, but that seeems excessive. I would preffer to have hotkey Zero be 1 Overseer and about 5 speed roaches, but that seems to sort of be a waste of supply...
What do you do? Addendum: How do you deal with DT harass really late game...like 20 min when 5-6 dt's can literally wipe out entire bases SURROUNDED by 8-10 spines with an overseer overhead?? This is how I've lost all of my zvp's today and it's extremely frustrating thinking that there's nothing I can do except leave half my army at each base to fend off 5 ridiculous units, all while still having to deal with double robo colossi, archons, and a mothership...
you do know 1 DT cost 125/125? Aslong you have 3 spines and overseer DT is not an option, then its allmost allways better just throwing down chargelots. If you scout a Darkshrine being build you should never take damage from it in the midgame and with the new overlord speed its pretty easy to scout for u
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Quick question that hopefully can be answered without a hassle!
Played Zerg since release and I remember the standard opening being 10 overlord (or so I think??). Seen a lot of players doing and people talking about 9 overlord instead. Either im not up to date with the builds or I have been doing it wrong the whole time but I was wondering what is most efficient; 10 or 9 overlord?
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EPT
