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Your guide didn't exactly cover this variation, but I see it talks about spines and speed ASAP. Honestly, I've never seen anybody skip that first zealot and go straight stalkers. Yes, getting speed ASAP is needed, but that takes a long time while stalkers are hammering on the front door. Having a spine is great, but it isn't very helpful against this much pressure. I suppose this is a build order loss where I just cannot afford the defenses necessary.
i didnt say anyone skipped the zealot, i said they were chronoing out their 2nd unit, and the 2nd unit turns out to be a stalker. I dont know why you are being so down about it... you'll often see zergs these days make a spine in their main against a gateway opener who is chronoing their gateway after they made a zealot, and then walk that spine into their nat, unless they opened 14/14. Nestea vs MC is a recent example. Since zergs don't open 14/14 anymore, you dont have speed in time for early stalker pressure. I suppose with the queen buff, you might not even need to do that though.
There was no way for me to macro up and build an army since his army was already so much larger. He just kept coming in and taking out my 3rd, forcing me to take a 3rd and a 4th and hope one of them survives (which it did in both games). I'm listening, if you can offer critiques to this.
You dont need an army, you just need to make enough roaches, if he moved out with 1 zealot 6 sentries. Which means like 5 roaches, and only if he's pushing out. You can also drone up, it's a slow army, to about 45-50, and then make the roaches.
Check the replay I had in my guide about gas third vs 3 gate expand.
With the current meta consisting of a protoss going FFE, the 11p deals damage nearly every single time. If they go greedy Nexus first, they lose. If they place the canon too far out, they either have to cancel the Nexus or lose probes defending the lings. Honestly, I really HATE dealing with a pylon block delaying my natural. When I explored the 14p build, protoss just pylon blocks my natural and forces me to take my 3rd first (if they don't pylon block that too). Then they can come back and drop a gateway at my natural then go 6/7/8gate and win. Sure the 11p isn't the most economical opening, but it applies early enough pressure to catch up or win. Either that, or I'm playing from a deficit and have been out-playing most of my opponents and I really doubt that.*
*This is at high platinum/low diamond. My ZvP winrate for season 6 was 59% while my winrate in season 7 is 52%. My lower winrate in season 7 is due to my experimentation with a 14p, toss finally starting to learn how to set canons properly, and toss learning timings to hard-counter the stephano roach build.
11p will stop working that great every time very soon, and you realize toss is behind when he wastes a pylon right? Dont overreact to the pylon, you being delayed 20 seconds on your hatch, when you are making 3 of them anyways, is just the same as toss gets delayed. Just take your third (which i personally dont recommend, but others do, w/e), or wait for the 4 lings. Really, you won't be as far behind as Toss will be from doing that. Toss only does it to escape their probe, which you should follow with 1 of your lings, and attack the pylon with 3 lings 1 drone.
Going 11 pool to kill a pylon makes zero sense. Believe me, you are MUCH further behind going 11 pool/18 hatch, and making 6 lings, and being able to take your nat with no pylon block, than 14 pool/21hatch and making 4 lings to destroy a pylon. 4 lings are useful for you, 6 lings is too much, but a pylon block is not useful for toss at all when he loses it right away. Really, toss is going to be further behind than you for the pylon block.
Belial thanks a lot for your early pool guide. I've been reading the variations and responses. Exactly what I was looking for. Yesterday I was 6 or so zvz's in a row with only 10 pools... I won most of them but I still felt like I could have done better holding it off.
your welcome but i dont understand what exactly youare saying. you got 10 pooled? The guide talks nothing about 10 pool. Anyways, your welcome, i know the tips in there can help you out no matter what build you do.
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What's a good number of Mutas to initially attack an enemy's base? I tend to have maybe 8 on my first pop but then I wait for my next rotation. However, I've watch replays of my games and usually this gives them enough time to set up turrets  I always feel like 8 isn't enough and that going in to attack is pointless since it reveals my tech and also will be null to groups of Marines and Stalkers. So how many Mutas would be effective in their first encounter in the enemy's base?
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Think about how much 8 mutas costs you - 800 min, 800 gas, plus the 200/200 for the spire itself. If you want to make it back, then do something with it.
You answer yourself by saying that by waiting for the second round they build defences. Attack when you get the first 8 then. Do some harass, do some damage while you can. Vs Zerg, threaten him then go for his overlords, take some map control. Vs Terran and Protoss hit the Xel'naga towers and kill anything there. But most importantly threaten with them. All you need to do is force him to do something with those mutas, you don't necessarily have to kill enough to cover the cost of the mutas themselves (since they are pretty expensive...>.>). You say he's building up defences? Try to make him fill his base with defences. Keep poking and prodding. Make him pull back his army to his base so you can attack elsewhere. And you'll be getting plenty of scouting done with this at the same time 
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yea i have a 70%+ win rate zvt 800 pt masters, I dont think I ever get my mutas inside terran's base. it's about keeping them alive so if he pushes, you have insane dps that either always wins in a base trade/counterattack scenario or battle, and forcing lots of defenses (which in turns delays expos and delays production buildings, and therefore army production, and therefore the eventual doom push).
If your mutas always arrive to turrets, that's not necessarily a bad thing - this is an issue of your lair timing, rather than anything else. If you can only make 8 mutas when your spire pops, either your macro is horrible (which is kind of sounds like, most people can afford 10+ mutas when it pops, but i dont know what build you are doing so whatever) or your lair is too quick (getting lair too early = no drones or econ = much smaller muta flock).
I make lair around 55 supply in zvt, and the 'standard' for mutas is making lair around 55. I don't think i ever see zergs make lair quicker than 50 supply in zvt muta play (yuigoh's weird metagame timing aside, he lost anyways). Making lair super quick just doesnt really make sense with mutas, 8 mutas won't do much damage, and even if you kill 10 scvs, you are still probably more behind than if you just made your lair on time and didn't cut your drone and econ production as hard.
really just need a rep to see what's going on in your play. it sounds like a macro issue to me. but mutas aren't about attacking scv's. it's about what they force in the opponent, they are a very aggressive unit that the opponent must react to, or die. it forces honest play.
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i believe 5 mutas one-shot a worker, so with at least 5 mutas you can do some nice harass!
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so you can maybe kill 5 workers before he pulls his probes and gets his army over - and how many drones did you cut to get mutas that quickly? A lot more than 5 I imagine, not to mention the third you probably don't have. Generally from what I see and do in muta play, the mutas most likely won't even be out to deal with the first push (or T will have his third started already). (drg vs thorzain as an example).
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are you saying that in reply to me? i hope not, because then i'm getting really confused, real fast.
i was answering learning88's question about how many mutas you initally can start harass with, at least that was how i interpreted his post.
i think if you have 5 mutas you can start one-shotting workers, so you can do efficient harass.
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You definitely what more than 5... If you have 5, more often than not, a muta's not going to be in range when you focus a worker, and the worker's not going to die. You're not going to be able to harass other things effectively (depots/pylons, tech structures, etc.) You can't threaten small groups of marines or lone turrets. If you want to actually effectively harass, you want at least 9-12.
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there's no problem getting the snipe with 5 mutas, they are so fast.
i prefer starting harass as soon as i have 5 or more mutas, the more the merrier if you have more popping of course, but if you have 8 you can definately start being annoying right away than waiting 40+ seconds for the next round.
edit:
but if your opponent didn't scout the spire yet then i can see why you'd maybe want to wait.
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I am trying to get an early expansion, at around 16 food. But my problem is often thte balance between getting to 55 drones after 8 mins, getting a larger enough army (and infestors vs T bio ball) and then taking 3rd base.
Drones are important, it scales if I don't keep up.
I have to survive the 8 or 10 minute mark attack.
The bio ball gets mean with stim etc, hard with ling roach. Infestors help a lot.
Getting my 3rd gets hard to defend.
What when they have 2 bases, dangerous to wait with my 3rd right? What do I usually do at this point or what do I have tot think of when deciding...?
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Does anyone know what to do if the terran opens with 2 rax and sends 8rines to my natural(takes a fast natural during that time) and then continuing making rines to turtle. Then he transitions into fast banshee
http://drop.sc/183394
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how i counter mutas in zvz if i was relaying heavy on roaches?
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On May 20 2012 01:52 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
how i counter mutas in zvz if i was relaying heavy on roaches?
check gas, check lair timing, check for spire.
spore+queen defense and drop hydra dent or infestation pit.
attack before he can saturate his third and do the tech switch.
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On May 20 2012 02:02 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 01:52 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
how i counter mutas in zvz if i was relaying heavy on roaches? check gas, check lair timing, check for spire. spore+queen defense and drop hydra dent or infestation pit. attack before he can saturate his third and do the tech switch.
I tried infestors but it didnt went well because i was on four bases and infestors are relative slow compared to mutas. I will try hydras next time!
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anybody got a good BO for dealing with the yuffe build where they go gasless gate --> nexus into 3 zealot pressure? been asked from some people but no real answers yet. still going fast 3rd and defending with a round of lings or going for later 3rd and droning on 2 base a little longer since if you go fast 3rd and have to build lings you wont be able to support 3 bases?
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On May 20 2012 02:06 aaaaaaaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 02:02 ETisME wrote:On May 20 2012 01:52 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
how i counter mutas in zvz if i was relaying heavy on roaches? check gas, check lair timing, check for spire. spore+queen defense and drop hydra dent or infestation pit. attack before he can saturate his third and do the tech switch. I tried infestors but it didnt went well because i was on four bases and infestors are relative slow compared to mutas. I will try hydras next time!
If you're on 3 bases or more and he went mutas, you're ahead. Just try to get the best possible army composition in a decent amount of time on 3 bases and kill him while he's on 3 base with a lesser army comp because of the gas blown on mutas.
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On May 20 2012 01:52 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
how i counter mutas in zvz if i was relaying heavy on roaches?
You should be scouting and making use of that fast ol speed
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On May 20 2012 02:02 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 01:52 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
how i counter mutas in zvz if i was relaying heavy on roaches? check gas, check lair timing, check for spire. spore+queen defense and drop hydra dent or infestation pit. attack before he can saturate his third and do the tech switch.
The timing to attack is definitely not before he can saturate his third, it comes quite a bit after that. If you attack then, you're completely cutting your economy, and he's going to crush the roach/hydra/infestor ball with a bunch of speedbanes and mutas.
You want roach/queen/infestor, to keep your infestors alive (if you lose them then his army is just going to kill yours since he doesn't have to worry about being fungaled) with transfuses and add extra HP to your roaches. Queens also have really good AA.
Generally I am the one going mutas, but the few times I've done this push it seems pretty simple if you have good macro.
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@Belial, I know it doesn't talk about 10 pools, but I was really just asking for correct decision making and micro during an early pool. Those techniques work regardless of whether you hatch first or go 14/14. The flower technique is really cool, i've seen it but i've never actually realized how effective it was. The one part that really helped me was the base trade scenario vs an all in zerg who builds a spine crawler. That's the one I always lose to, I thought about doing that but now I love it. It makes so much sense. I could always hold the non spine crawler variations, or the drone-zergling all in variations. It was the extremely all in spine crawler, pull all drones that screwed me up. Thanks!
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When going hatch first vs drone all in + spine, decision making is everything. A pure droneling spine allin requires only a base trade, and a scouting drone to make into a spine (you can make an extractor as that last building, but this will lose if proerly surrounds your morphings lings, and while he should not deny every ling, he should deny it so you only have 2, which is very iffy to win with and depends on how much damage you took on drones and you might just want to be safer and force a stalemate).
If someone leaves 2 drones and a ling at home though, or morphs 2 spines, you need to tuilize bosswalking (mineral walking toward the morhing spines) and its very micro dependent.
If you go 14 pool vs drone all ins or double spine, there are really lotts of things you can do, and making a stand and morphing 2 spines vs his already up sppine, or a queen, can work, but you really have more choices, time, and yea, could just do the defense in the guide as if you went hatch first (in which case, you WILL get at least 4 lings out and so can win).
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EPT
