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On May 20 2012 01:32 C0MMANDO wrote:Does anyone know what to do if the terran opens with 2 rax and sends 8rines to my natural(takes a fast natural during that time) and then continuing making rines to turtle. Then he transitions into fast banshee http://drop.sc/183394
If you see a 2rax, just react normally. You should pull some drones to deny bunkers from going down. Queens with the new update, are amazing at killing scvs building bunkers and killing marines; they can no longer be kited, which is awesome. There are plently of guides and tips for holding off a two rax on TL so just look for them, theres no reason you should have to ask that. Just look around =D!
As for the follow up, scouting would definitely help you a lot, or checking the front for the number of marines, or barracks if you can see them. Most zergs would most likely have an evolution chamber ready for emergency situations and of course, for upgrades.
After I watched your replay, I realized that you should probably focus more on basics. You need to learn build orders to open with and also should probably focus on macro. That specific opening cannot be dealt with properly if you don't have proper mechanics behind it.
Focus on building drones, following a specfic build order, and hitting your injects. There are threads about this specific topics. Try to focus on the basics, and then worry about certain openings.
At the start, it took you several seconds even to start your first drone. You should be building that drone with your first 50 minerals almost immediately.
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most broodwar pros are not preferring zerg over the other two races. why??
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because the metagame for TvZ and PvZ is insanely strong for T and P, it's also easy to die from dumb timings.
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On May 19 2012 06:01 wcr.4fun wrote:Hello, I just played a game vs a toss. I forgot to scout during a couple of minutes. I had scout that he had a robo, but I didn't check his units after. I herp derped 200 roaches which worked 'ok' but they got worse as the game dragged on because he eventually had about 7 immortals. I'm pretty clueless on what to do after the '12 max roach push'. I've been reading this guide. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038#1 It says I either should turtle up with infestors behind mass spines, or pressure constantly with roach (and or infestors) while teching to hive or go mutalisks while expanding and teching to hive. TLDR: what did I do wrong in this game? I thought my macro was 'ok' till 12 minutes. I'm 'clueless' on what to do after mass roaches if your opponent is getting a good ball of stalkers/sentries/immmortals (or collussus). I know I should tech to broodlords infestors, but how do I not die in between? http://topreplays.com/Replays/Detail..._vs_Augustiner
Sorry to bump this. But it didn't get answered.
I've been reading belial's guide a little bit more, but I find some things to be a little contradictory from my point of view. For example he says I shouldn't be making more than 20 roaches (because they soak up a lot of gas) after I've defended my third and have mapcontrol. But 2 from the 4 (viable) options you have are making a lot of roaches with aggression. (or did I interpret this wrong?)
Since the toss is building up collussi or immortals etc, roach aggression doesn't do that much anymore (for me). They can even end the game right there, since I don't have a wall of spines (am I supposed to?) and just roach (and or infestor). Immortals rape my army, would have some trouble with a wall of spines, but collussi can just outrange the spines anyway.
Another options is getting mutalisks, but these cost a lot of gas as well, and when are you supposed to stop making mutalisks (to tech towards hive)?
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http://drop.sc/183624
Hey so I had this really weird game. I feel like I lost because the guy was an idiot - like, he does a roach/ling all-in, but grabs a 2nd gas off 25 drones and makes a roach warren when he takes his natural. He just does this really bad build at the start, but I think this is all made up because of my bad macro (in part, because I was 'getting ready for the all-in by building spines, cutting drone production, and paying more of my attention to scouting rather than macro) and him taking a super fast third. He made a TON of lings at the start of the game too. He just like... played like so bad, it was good, because he took a super fast third with the scouting he was able to deny. his build just made no sense at all (oh yea, he goes super fast lair... but he's going roaches, which again, makes no sense at all). So I guess his bad macro is okay because he takes a faster third than me, and I didn't get ahead because I macro'd poorly because I thought he was roach/ling all-inning (and really, he did do a roach/ling all-in... he made a ton of roaches, no drones.. he just never attacked).
So I take my third at about the normal timing, but by that time his was already done halfway, like at 8:00 /~50 supply. So whatever.
So we both go towards 3 base, and I'm not too sure if I can drone too hard or not. I mean, if he just pumps lots of roaches and I go towards infestors, I'll die. But if it's a macro game, I need quicker infestors. And that's what happens - it's a macro game, and he gets quick infestors, and my infestors are late.
Then, he goes super fast hive. It makes zero sense. And, he's at like only 60 drones. So what I do in response, is take my fourth, and plan to do a roach/infestor attack - but lo and behold, he attacks me with roach/infestor. So I think he's ahead because of my bad macro earlier (but i think our macro was like equal, right?). I'm just a bit confused here - should I be going infestors immediately when it's 3 base vs 3 base game, or what? Someone who goes third, and stops at 50 drones and masses roaches, will kill you right?
Then he attacks me, with roaches, like 2-5 infestors, and 8 bl and 6 corruptors, to my like less roaches, 6 bl, 4 corruptors, but 15 infestors. I guess the moral I learn here is that infestors are horrible against broodlords (i mean I knew that, but I thought bl/corruptor > bl/infestor > roach/bl... and you want lots of infesotrs in roach/infestor vs roach/infestor battles right?).
The game ends up a tie. I think he could have won if he just killed off his own bulidings to reset the timer and sniped my overlords with his corruptors that were spewing creep to keep my last buildings, 3 spines, alive, and just transfuse so the 6 ITs I could pop from my 5 infestors that i had to keep popping to protect my overlords, every minute, so that the spines would die and I'd lose, but whatever.
I just need someone else to look at this game. it's just such a weird game. He never made any drones. I think I even suffered from going up to 88 drones vs his like 60 and that was the time when we were both near maxed but him having 20 more supply in army due to no drones. I only went to 88 drones because I was specifically planning to make 20 spines with them (a recent strategy of mine, in all matchups, is to go up to 100 drones, then make 30 spines, in the late mid-game while transitioning into bl). But he like stayed at 60 drones on 3 bases (i do recall nestea saying never make more than 65 drones in zvz though).
Just a really, weird game, and a really, sub-optimal opening from an opponent that didnt make sense. I even asked him "why are you going 14/14 when it's close by air spawn metalopolis'. like wtf.
On a side note, I think im a bit lost on broodlords in zvz. Whenever i go broodlrods in zvz, i get owned by mass roach counterattacks. Then, whenever goes super fast 3 base broodlords, I lose and I dont know why, when I try to go roach/infestor/corruptor vs his army. I'm just a bit confused on the dynamics of broodlords vs roach counterattacks in zvz. I either get owned by fast broodlords and can't handle them, or i get owned by mass roach counterattacks when i go broodlords. I know like, in a straight up fight, pure bl/corruptor > bl/infestor > roach/infestor, and that's sort of the general tech progression (going pure bl/corruptor 3/3 is like nearly never seen, as in 6+ bases mined out situation, ive only had a game go like that twice - you have so many broodlords that any infestor is instantly vaporized). But roach counterattacks seem so damn strong when you are on bl tech, but at the same time, I'm not sure what to do when someone gets quick roach/infestor/bl army out.
bleh.
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I've only recently started playing again so take my advice with a grain of salt. But in zvz which is my best match up. I get a relatively quick third around 8 minutes. You need to have vision of the entire map so you know when he's moving out and with what. You can always throw up protective spines in time if you see a sudden roach push and get your own roaches out in time. You can use some lings to threaten run by and hopefully slow him down a bit. I get the infestation pit as soon as I hit lair which I start at around 8 minutes. Get the pathogen gland upgrade and when it's 3/4th (I believe, someone confirm??) you can start making your infestors. As soon as you have 3 bases running with around 20 drones on minerals each, I like to get a lot of spines since if you go roach battles, you're starting to stack minerals because infestors and roach are more heavy on your gas.
Those spines really help out, just remember to remake the drones. I also get a macro hatch so you'll always have enough larvae to remake the drones + keep making roaches/infestors.
I never have gotten broodlords in zvz so I can't comment about that. roach corruptor might be good vs it if you are behind on the broodlord tech. Roaches to quickly kill any of his expansions, corruptors to constantly try to poke the broodlords if he gets his infestors out of position etc.
Also what's wrong with 14/14 on close air spawn metalopolis? hatch first better?
As you said, don't get infestors too early or he'll overrun you with roaches.
Most important thing in zvz is to have a lot of vision and scout really well. Get those overseers to scout your opponents base. Check his unit count/drone count/tech with lings/overseers/overlords, anything basically.
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On May 20 2012 23:56 wcr.4fun wrote:
I've only recently started playing again so take my advice with a grain of salt. But in zvz which is my best match up. I get a relatively quick third around 8 minutes. You need to have vision of the entire map so you know when he's moving out and with what. You can always throw up protective spines in time if you see a sudden roach push and get your own roaches out in time. You can use some lings to threaten run by and hopefully slow him down a bit. I get the infestation pit as soon as I hit lair which I start at around 8 minutes. Get the pathogen gland upgrade and when it's 3/4th (I believe, someone confirm??) you can start making your infestors. As soon as you have 3 bases running with around 20 drones on minerals each, I like to get a lot of spines since if you go roach battles, you're starting to stack minerals because infestors and roach are more heavy on your gas.
Those spines really help out, just remember to remake the drones. I also get a macro hatch so you'll always have enough larvae to remake the drones + keep making roaches/infestors.
I never have gotten broodlords in zvz so I can't comment about that. roach corruptor might be good vs it if you are behind on the broodlord tech. Roaches to quickly kill any of his expansions, corruptors to constantly try to poke the broodlords if he gets his infestors out of position etc.
Also what's wrong with 14/14 on close air spawn metalopolis? hatch first better?
As you said, don't get infestors too early or he'll overrun you with roaches.
Most important thing in zvz is to have a lot of vision and scout really well. Get those overseers to scout your opponents base. Check his unit count/drone count/tech with lings/overseers/overlords, anything basically.
Be careful! You may want to wait a little bit before giving advice, especially if you come back after a significant break , just to get updated to new metagames.
A few mistakes here: infestors can be started when pathogen glands are half way done. optimal saturation is 16 drones on a normal 8 patch mineral line, not 20 or so. Roaches are not so heavy on gas; finally, you can't give such a precise timing of "8 min", cause in Z v Z early engagements are frequent and will strongly impact the later game.
Plus, I am afraid here your correct pieces of advice are quite commonsensical and will not really answer the previous question
Sorry for being a bit harsh, it intends to be friendly
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Yeah my apologies, I just like giving advice. :D I'll (try to) wait with it till I've got some more knowledge of the game again.
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how do u respond to a CC first or 1 rax expand?it seems many terran prefer to do this instead of reactor hellion expand in the last weeks.. fast third? at what timing? vs terran i always open 4 queens gasless now with queen buff..
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Alright so I've recently come back to playing SC2 since leaving during Season 1 (it's an addiction, man!). I mention this because I was a Diamond Terran back when that was the highest league -- i.e. my macro doesn't suck. But I've switched to Zerg and although I'm able to hit my injects and take care of upgrades/supply/making units, I have trouble knowing when to drone. Not in the sense of "I pushed back an attack, time to drone up!" but in the sense of "Okay I'm saturated on two bases, should I drone in anticipation of taking more bases, or make units?"
I always end up with saturation really early on, but then when I take my third and fourth I'm low on drones to maynard because a) I take them early so I'm not mined out at my main/natural and b) I have to make units in the midgame to survive deathballs. Any general guidelines for drone counts at time x, y, and z?
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@Belial, I can't watch the replay right now, but if someone is fucking around, and doing dumb shit. Just go kill him.
It can be difficult getting good reads on bad players. Any good timing attack, or generally just being aggro should work well against inefficient players.
When a terran is doing all this whacky banshee, hellion bullcrap, and continues to do shit, I just baneling bust the crap out of them with lots of lings. If they deviate and do inefficient stuff they really shouldn't have that many units.
User was warned for this post
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On May 21 2012 05:44 Tribuno wrote:
how do u respond to a CC first or 1 rax expand?it seems many terran prefer to do this instead of reactor hellion expand in the last weeks.. fast third? at what timing? vs terran i always open 4 queens gasless now with queen buff..
You really only have two choices: Macro harder, or Attempt to kill it.
When you see a CC first, you practically can go take your third as soon as you can afford it; prioritize drone; some players even go 3 hatch before pool when they scout it. The terran really can't have any units out for a long time if he goes CC first.
You could, i'm supposing do some big attack against CC first, that could be effective. I don't know any specifically, but theoretically his tanks should be late, so a large baneling bust perhaps with roaches could be effective.
As for rax first, there are two openings. The regular moves right into hellion production which really isn't a large deviation from the regular hellion opening, the only change is the timing of the CC. It just gives you some extra time before hellions come out. There also is the non hellion variation which is similar to CC first, but his units will come out faster than the CC variation because his barracks is obviously built before the CC.
Be careful of the follow up if you don't see hellions. It often indicates banshees, or an early stim attack with medivacs, or even an early tank marine push. There are others, but those are some of the most common openings.
If you do see hellions, and they don't stop after 8 or so, be very wary of banshees. This also could be an indicator of mech play.
If they stop at around 8 or so, its most likely standard play.
Goodluck!
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What are the speedling, all around gas, lair, spire, and hive timings for ZvT
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On May 20 2012 20:59 Belial88 wrote:http://drop.sc/183624Hey so I had this really weird game. I feel like I lost because the guy was an idiot - like, he does a roach/ling all-in, but grabs a 2nd gas off 25 drones and makes a roach warren when he takes his natural. He just does this really bad build at the start, but I think this is all made up because of my bad macro (in part, because I was 'getting ready for the all-in by building spines, cutting drone production, and paying more of my attention to scouting rather than macro) and him taking a super fast third. He made a TON of lings at the start of the game too. He just like... played like so bad, it was good, because he took a super fast third with the scouting he was able to deny. his build just made no sense at all (oh yea, he goes super fast lair... but he's going roaches, which again, makes no sense at all). So I guess his bad macro is okay because he takes a faster third than me, and I didn't get ahead because I macro'd poorly because I thought he was roach/ling all-inning (and really, he did do a roach/ling all-in... he made a ton of roaches, no drones.. he just never attacked). So I take my third at about the normal timing, but by that time his was already done halfway, like at 8:00 /~50 supply. So whatever. So we both go towards 3 base, and I'm not too sure if I can drone too hard or not. I mean, if he just pumps lots of roaches and I go towards infestors, I'll die. But if it's a macro game, I need quicker infestors. And that's what happens - it's a macro game, and he gets quick infestors, and my infestors are late. Then, he goes super fast hive. It makes zero sense. And, he's at like only 60 drones. So what I do in response, is take my fourth, and plan to do a roach/infestor attack - but lo and behold, he attacks me with roach/infestor. So I think he's ahead because of my bad macro earlier (but i think our macro was like equal, right?). I'm just a bit confused here - should I be going infestors immediately when it's 3 base vs 3 base game, or what? Someone who goes third, and stops at 50 drones and masses roaches, will kill you right? Then he attacks me, with roaches, like 2-5 infestors, and 8 bl and 6 corruptors, to my like less roaches, 6 bl, 4 corruptors, but 15 infestors. I guess the moral I learn here is that infestors are horrible against broodlords (i mean I knew that, but I thought bl/corruptor > bl/infestor > roach/bl... and you want lots of infesotrs in roach/infestor vs roach/infestor battles right?). The game ends up a tie. I think he could have won if he just killed off his own bulidings to reset the timer and sniped my overlords with his corruptors that were spewing creep to keep my last buildings, 3 spines, alive, and just transfuse so the 6 ITs I could pop from my 5 infestors that i had to keep popping to protect my overlords, every minute, so that the spines would die and I'd lose, but whatever. I just need someone else to look at this game. it's just such a weird game. He never made any drones. I think I even suffered from going up to 88 drones vs his like 60 and that was the time when we were both near maxed but him having 20 more supply in army due to no drones. I only went to 88 drones because I was specifically planning to make 20 spines with them (a recent strategy of mine, in all matchups, is to go up to 100 drones, then make 30 spines, in the late mid-game while transitioning into bl). But he like stayed at 60 drones on 3 bases (i do recall nestea saying never make more than 65 drones in zvz though). Just a really, weird game, and a really, sub-optimal opening from an opponent that didnt make sense. I even asked him "why are you going 14/14 when it's close by air spawn metalopolis'. like wtf. On a side note, I think im a bit lost on broodlords in zvz. Whenever i go broodlrods in zvz, i get owned by mass roach counterattacks. Then, whenever goes super fast 3 base broodlords, I lose and I dont know why, when I try to go roach/infestor/corruptor vs his army. I'm just a bit confused on the dynamics of broodlords vs roach counterattacks in zvz. I either get owned by fast broodlords and can't handle them, or i get owned by mass roach counterattacks when i go broodlords. I know like, in a straight up fight, pure bl/corruptor > bl/infestor > roach/infestor, and that's sort of the general tech progression (going pure bl/corruptor 3/3 is like nearly never seen, as in 6+ bases mined out situation, ive only had a game go like that twice - you have so many broodlords that any infestor is instantly vaporized). But roach counterattacks seem so damn strong when you are on bl tech, but at the same time, I'm not sure what to do when someone gets quick roach/infestor/bl army out. bleh.
That was actually a really cool late game. Your crisis management needs work though. A single overseer over your spines at each side of the map would have won you the game, since you let him burrow all over the place and snipe your hatcheries.
Secondly, your infestor control/positioning. Whyyyyy. 1. Neural Parasite. Why Zergs don't get this in late game BL vs BL is beyond me. 2. He engaged at you. This is what you want. On metalopolis, you can put your infestors at your main high ground, and some with the rest of your army. His BLs are going to sit behind his roaches. You could have fungal'ed all of them, spam ITs under them and won, if you had positioned properly.
Now, you played against a Zerg that was terrible. Really, I don't know what he was doing. But since he was so bad, you couldn't read him, and therefore let him get away with making bad decisions. Like his opener. 14/14 on close air metal? Makes no sense, but okay. Now, your macro suffers, and you float minerals, letting him get away with having less drones. Then you don't scout his fast third because for some reason you don't have a ling there, and you overprepare for a roach ling all in that never came. You don't need that much against roach ling with no banes, all you need is roach bane and a few lings. The entire point of going hatch first is to have a higher drone count than 14/14, but again, your crisis management, especially when you're not sure what your opponent is doing, is troubling, and led to your opponent having even more drones than you and a much faster third, and faster ups. If he had just gone 200/200 2/2 ups roach timing, you would have just died.
He then went 3 base roach/infestor. The only reason this worked is because you were playing catch up, therefore you couldn't just max 2/2 roaches and kill him with a good spread. So your only chance there WAS going infestor, you should have immediately put down a pit upon lair completion.
Now late game, you honestly let tiny groups of burrow roaches completely own you. You knew he had burrow, why don't you have overseers on each lane? It's metal, the simplest possible map to stop harassment because you already know where it's coming from.
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Also what's wrong with 14/14 on close air spawn metalopolis? hatch first better?
???
Hatch first > 14/14, always on close air. And Hatch first is a build order lead against 14/14 when played right on maps with a natura choke.
So when you can see exactly what build the opponent is doing, you are going to delay your pool. So you plant your hatch before pool because you see the other guy hasn't planted his pool yet. You generally want to start your pool after your opponent, to get a lead (ie 10 pool beats 6 pool, 14 pool beats 10 pool and 6 pool). I've seen games go up to 3 hatch before pool on close air.
. Get the pathogen gland upgrade and when it's 3/4th (I believe, someone confirm??) you can start making your infestors. As soon as you have 3 bases running with around 20 drones on minerals each, I like to get a lot of spines since if you go roach battles, you're starting to stack minerals because infestors and roach are more heavy on your gas.
A few mistakes here: infestors can be started when pathogen glands are half way done
So much fail.
You can start infestors at 31/80, as infestors take 50 seconds (31+50=81, or upgrade done). This is wayyyy before 3/4th.... i mean you can just look at the upgrade to have figured this out.
By the way, I'm 800 pts masters, so I have at least a basic grasp of zvz. I guess I just need a replay analysis
@Belial, I can't watch the replay right now, but if someone is fucking around, and doing dumb shit. Just go kill him.
It can be difficult getting good reads on bad players. Any good timing attack, or generally just being aggro should work well against inefficient players.
Well he was making a ton of units, that was the thing. It was all thrown off when he went super fast third, like even earlier than standard timing (i guess he was doing a roach/ling all-in, but then saw it wouldn't work maybe and so took his third, but he took a 2nd gas really quickly, and even got +1 and lair... i think he was just retarded)
So aggro wasn't really the choice. And, as I said, I saw him going hive, so I actually thought I was going to be the aggressor with roach/infestor. So I was a little surprised when he actually attacked me.
how do u respond to a CC first or 1 rax expand?it seems many terran prefer to do this instead of reactor hellion expand in the last weeks.. fast third? at what timing? vs terran i always open 4 queens gasless now with queen buff..
fast third... delay your lair and gases so you can drone more. if terran goes cc first, you might not need to make so many queens either.
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What i can do against a protoss that fast expand, then put some 4 cannons in his entrance and start chrono boosting his probe production and goes for 6 gate + robo? I am loosing one zvp after another, its retarded compared to my others matchups. Protoss army is too strong.
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On May 21 2012 10:32 aaaaaaaaa wrote:
What i can do against a protoss that fast expand, then put some 4 cannons in his entrance and start chrono boosting his probe production and goes for 6 gate + robo? I am loosing one zvp after another, its retarded compared to my others matchups. Protoss army is too strong.
He goes forge expand and blindly makes 4 cannons? You should be laughing because you are already ahead if he is doing that if you aren't doing any sort of all in.
You should be taking a fast third, droning up, sacrificing 2 overlords at main + natural to look at timings. If you see a robo you can drone a little longer then normal and then make a ton of units if he is 2 base all inning. You should also always look at gateways, if the toss is decent his gateway timing should sync with his warpgates so when those gateways finish his warpgate tech should be done within 10 seconds of it at most. So start preparing once you see the gateways get half way is when I would recommend if you scout 6 gateways being made .
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On May 21 2012 08:39 Belial88 wrote:
Hatch first > 14/14, always.
So when you can see exactly what build the opponent is doing, you are going to delay your pool. So you plant your hatch before pool because you see the other guy hasn't planted his pool yet. You generally want to start your pool after your opponent, to get a lead (ie 10 pool beats 6 pool, 14 pool beats 10 pool and 6 pool). I've seen games go up to 3 hatch before pool on close air.
I agree with your statements with the close air, but on some maps I don't mind having gone 14/14 vs hatch first. If you think you can micro better than your opponent, you have a window where you have speed, and they don't. You can usually get some drone kills, sometimes a lot. You also deny mining at the front at minimum and you need those 4 lings if you don't have scouting information anyway, so it doesn't affect your economy.. The threat of early banelings is also pretty terrifying when going hatch first. Sometimes I feel like you have to build a good amount of zerglings when you go hatch first, but i'm probably wrong. Although, the queen change probably will make this less effective now; i'm not sure how many queens they would have out when speed hits. Also, very good for scouting!
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^ Hatch first beats 14/14 which beats 10 pool which beats Hatch First.
That said, Hatch first isn't so far ahead of 14/14 that it's an autoloss or anything, it's just about 3-5 drones advantage, and with ling/bane and such, the game can really go anywhere. it's just a minor advantage.
What I meant to say, was that on close air spawn, Hatch First > 14/14 always. I'll edit the post, of course.
Hatch First won't have speed so delayed that they can't handle pressure at all either. Hatch First makes 4 initial lings, or whatever (can delay them if 14/14 doesn make any), and then purely drones behind a 2 queen + spine + transfuse ramp block, regardless of what the 14/14 player is doing. They will have speed, then banes, in time for any mass bane bust, and they will have speed in time to scout. In the lower levels, players struggle to micro right, to get the right timings (ie not making workers quick enough, so then bane nest isn't timed right and comes late or can't afford the banes, etc). Even as a mid-masters zerg, I often find games where I end up just even on drones with the 14/14 player, because I make mistakes. But when done correctly, hatch first will get ahead of 14/14.
Yea, you are wron gon having build lots of lings with hatch first. You just make 2-8 lings depending on how many initial lings the 14/14 player makes, and then your 2 queens pop, you get a single spine, you only inject with one of the queens (or neither if you see no expo), and drone up while your speed, then baneling nest comes. No attack the 14/14 player can do will bust that ramp before you have 4 banelings of your own, and as long as you keep them on move command instead of letting them die to single lings (which does take micro, something lower level players may not have adequately, or they might have, but then they have to make more banes, thus, the 14/14 player can get ahead in drones when he shouldnt be able to).
Flo I didn't notice your post. I think I thought it was mine or something, thanks for the write-up! I'll respond.
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What's the advantage to going Mutas in ZvT rather than straight into Infestor/Ling and expanding more quickly once you have fungals ready to go? Even down in the lowly Silver league a scan will inevitably catch your spire before it finishes and you'll run into a mass of turrets by the time you reach their base. Is the investment in a handful of missile turrets really that big a deal?
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EPT
