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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
I did a quick search and couldn't find any references to any recent 2 gate stalker aggression builds.
The build can apply stalker aggression while building probes, then secure a safe natural, then continually snipe the zerg 3rd until a deathball of stalkers and 2-4 colossi can push out. It starts with 3 stalkers moving out to the zerg natural, applying constant reinforced aggression until defended. Once the initial attack fails, a nexus is dropped at the natural and the ramp is block with buildings.
+ Show Spoiler +
pylon
gate
core
gas
stalker
gate
stalker
stalker
stalker
...
I played the same guy twice in a row last night, once on Shakuras and once on Entombed. Both of these have the easy to secure natural.
On the first game I fumbled my build, 11p/19h, and he ramp blocked using his first stalker. I saw him move out, but he sniped my morphing spine, my queen, a few drones, and tons of lings until I finally stabilized with speedlings. I scouted him going for his 3rd, so I took my 3rd and went mutas. From this point forward he continually moves in just to snipe the 3rd while he built his deathball. Obviously 2-base muta can't hold a 3-base Protoss but it was close'ish for awhile until he put down mass canons to stop the muta harass.
My second game build went well, 11p/19h again, and I took out his gate pylon as his stalker popped. He moved out with 3 stalkers, albeit slightly later. He sniped my morped spine, a queen, and lings, but no drones until I stopped him with speedlings. Same aggression on my 3rd until his stalker colossi ball killed me. With no stable 3rd, my roach count was pathetic.
I've been scouting the Protoss on 14 but that is too late since I've already committed 6 lings no matter what. If the Protoss is on 1-base then the lings do nothing but scout. Because the creep spread is so low on the 19 hatch, he can micro the stalkers very efficiently against slow lings and queens.
I can create a new thread with replays, but my replays are at home at the moment.
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You can read my guide on ZvP for answers. You should be getting speed against gateway openings asap, and if you notice they are chrono'ing the gateway after the first zealot (which usually means a quick zealolt/stalker pressure), you should make a spine in your main to walk to your natural when it finishes.
Why are you going 11 pool? It's not a good build unless you are trying to do 6 ling pressure against FFE. Make no mistake it really puts you behind 14 pool, by about 2-4 drones, and your hatch is really delayed. The thing with 14 pool, is that your money exceed larva production, meaning you can take a hatch. 11 pool is great if you are just 1 basing, but not for an expo build.
Why are you making 6 lings so early on? Going 11 pool, is semi all-innish (of course it's not all all in, but it is a coinflip). You are facing the consequences of your build - against nexus first, you profit, against FFE you end up behind, and against gateway openings your straight up really far behind.
Speedlings are amazing against 1 base toss :X. You should be getting speed asap when you figure out it's a gateway opening. If you dont drone scout, then your overlord should tell you in time.
You should be making a roach warren and third when toss takes his third, and then making roaches as necessary against any possible aggression, and taking map size into consideration, and then drone up and take another gas, lair, as soon as safely possible.
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ZvZ, being the beast of a match up it is, I like doing +1 carapace roach/ling attacks in the early/mid game (9 minutes or so). However, lately, I'm finding that, even if I hide my roaches like a boss, my opponent often has roaches and lings waiting and, when I foolishly commit with my army, I get roflstomped, they counter, I die.
Have roach/ling attacks become less common? Or just less effective?
(I do wish I could provide a replay, but, the last time I did these attacks I won due to...well...idk why...but I did...and I was confused 'cause, like I said, it rarely works nowadays)
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In ZvP I get a ton of idle larva after defending pressure/ saturating the 3rd and have started teching to infestors/ taking a 4th because protoss has secured an easily defendable third (think entombed, antiga, ohana). Am I supposed to have the larva lying around or should I start making spines and replacing drones as soon as possible? Or should I just spam lings until I have infestor/ bl tech? I kinda feel like even getting close to maxed out on ling/roach is very bad if pressure/ runby's are easily denied with a gateway wall/ sentry/ immortal. I am currently top diamond if that matters.
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can someone give me a good build in ZvP.
the match up is stupid. their units trade too well against mine. atm i cannot go mass roach due to large immortal counts and zerglings are really bad due to forcefield.
atm im trying to use Hydra/ling to kill them off before they get any splash. its not going well though. im around low diamond.
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When opening with a 14gas/14pool, what is the best way to deal with early pools (i.e. 6 - 10 pools)?
What are the correct decisions to be making? Especially in regards to, 1. Do I continue mining gas until 100 to get speed?
2. Do I build a queen? 3. Are there defensive building placements for the spawning pool? and lastly, 4. How should I micro at the different stages? Before lings are out? If I get the queen?
I'm looking for a high end, detailed answer. I want to know the most effective way to hold it off.
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On May 18 2012 19:18 nlight wrote:
In ZvP I get a ton of idle larva after defending pressure/ saturating the 3rd and have started teching to infestors/ taking a 4th because protoss has secured an easily defendable third (think entombed, antiga, ohana). Am I supposed to have the larva lying around or should I start making spines and replacing drones as soon as possible? Or should I just spam lings until I have infestor/ bl tech? I kinda feel like even getting close to maxed out on ling/roach is very bad if pressure/ runby's are easily denied with a gateway wall/ sentry/ immortal. I am currently top diamond if that matters.
You should never have idle larvae. It will hurt you. The most effective style of zerg has a fundamental of being very decisive in regards to production; you should only be building periods of either drones or purely units. If you watch replays of professional zergs, you will see waves and waves of drones, and then waves and waves of units. Be decisive, do not build some units and some drones with your larvae.
Ideally, if you want to tech, you should build drones for as long as you can while staying safe from protoss timings, and then build units to defend. If you have successfully defended an attack, there will be a period (MOST LIKELY, you have to scout and have an idea of what he is doing) in which you can builds lots of drones again and take a 4th or even a 5th.
You only want to spam lings if you need to defend, want to pressure him with a counterattack, or just want to attack.
For the roach-ling thing, you should never be building lots of roaches and lings (nearing max) unless you are going to attack and most likely kill or continuously deny the third. Stephano's 12 minute max is somewhat all-in. If you are unable to deny/kill the third or do other sufficient damage, you will be behind
As for the spinecrawlers, I'm not positive about the right time to build them, but I at least start building them after I am maxed with Broodlord, infestor, corruptor -OR- if I begin to have a surplus of minerals and already am fully saturated (i.e. 80-100 drones). Its okay to build waves of drones up to 100 if you are going to be building lots of spine crawlers. Otherwise stay below 90. Gas is the limiting factor on your late game army composition. Use those minerals for ling runbys, counters, and spinecrawlers.
Goodluck! I hope this helps.
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Hey Belial, I've noticed that ultras are really only good in combination with infestors. If they don't have enough infestor support, well upgraded roaches with some good splitting and kiting do well against ultras. If he has enough gasses though, I think it's really hard. Maybe build your own? Haha
Everytime I have hydras and the other player has ultras, they just get outmaneuvered, fungaled, and die. Also, they have great dps, but they have a lower attack value with a higher attack speed. Roaches shoot slower, but do more damage per shot; I really don't know how the dps differs when the armor of the ultra is added in. Roaches just generally do better IMO.
Just my 2 cents.
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On May 18 2012 20:34 HighLach wrote:
You should never have idle larvae. It will hurt you. The most effective style of zerg has a fundamental of being very decisive in regards to production; you should only be building periods of either drones or purely units.
So basically leftover larva after hitting 90+ drones on 4 base means I did not tech quick enough so I get stuck with making tier1/2 units in order to spend it all?
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On May 18 2012 20:45 nlight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 20:34 HighLach wrote:
You should never have idle larvae. It will hurt you. The most effective style of zerg has a fundamental of being very decisive in regards to production; you should only be building periods of either drones or purely units. So basically leftover larva after hitting 90+ drones on 4 base means I did not tech quick enough so I get stuck with making tier1/2 units in order to spend it all?
Well if you're maxed, you can't spend your larvae. The limiting factor on your army is gas income. You will always have a surplus of minerals when building broodlord infestor corruptor. That's why you build spines, or lings to counters etc...
If you are going for broodlord infestor corruptor, you really shouldn't be building roaches or hydras unless you need it for defense. You need that gas for the lategame army.
Try watching some of stephanos games where he opens 3 base macro style vs a FFE. A lot of the time he actually doesn't do his 12 minute timing attacks, and will just continue to drone after he defends, or if the toss takes an early third. He'll take something crazy like 6 bases. He guns for that lategame army. He pretty much wont build roaches unless he is pressured. When he does this and primarily sticks to zerglings with heavy upgrades into infestors; he doesn't want roaches because they aren't good in the lategame and they cost GAS. He then adds corruptors, which surprisingly work well with the ling infestor if an attack comes before broodlords, but try to get the broodlords fast. You don't want to be sitting on ling infestor corruptor for long.
The key is to take a huge economic advantage and then get to hive tech as fast as possible while getting lots of upgrades and infestors. You should always be wary of attacks. You can just get run over if you get a bad read on what he is doing.
And I can't say specifically if you didn't tech fast enough or not. You would really have to post a replay for someone to analyze. Lots of people have problems, and they cant identify themselves. Some people will say one thing is the problem, when in reality, its another problem entirely.
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On May 16 2012 19:14 Belial88 wrote:
And a 2nd question, about 1 gate nexus core builds. Do you get a quicker ling speed before expand (as in, later gas because you see he's going gate-nexus-core instead of gate-core-nexus), and use lots of lings to deal with like 4 zealot pressure, or do you use roaches?
I too am interested in the response to, what I now know to be called, a yufFE build. I assume I am still going gasless 3 hatch? Or not? Should I be getting speed before third? How do i compensate for the faster warpgate and overall faster timings from the protoss?
Scares me =/
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On May 18 2012 21:03 HighLach wrote:
Well if you're maxed, you can't spend your larvae. The limiting factor on your army is gas income. You will always have a surplus of minerals when building broodlord infestor corruptor. That's why you build spines, or lings to counters etc...
If you are going for broodlord infestor corruptor, you really shouldn't be building roaches or hydras unless you need it for defense. You need that gas for the lategame army.
So if I understand this correctly by aiming for the lategame broodlord/ infestor army I should invest only as much gas in units as I need to stay alive and spend everything else on teching/ upgrades and ultimately infestors, corruptors and broodlords? I should also aim to trade minerals when the opportunity arises (ling runbys, spines) in order to keep the protoss at bay for as long as possible until I get that sweet tier 3 army.
Thank you for your replies, this actually helps me a lot. I think at this point I've read so many guides/ bo's/ posts here that I have kind of lost track of the bigger picture.
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On May 18 2012 21:37 nlight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2012 21:03 HighLach wrote:
Well if you're maxed, you can't spend your larvae. The limiting factor on your army is gas income. You will always have a surplus of minerals when building broodlord infestor corruptor. That's why you build spines, or lings to counters etc...
If you are going for broodlord infestor corruptor, you really shouldn't be building roaches or hydras unless you need it for defense. You need that gas for the lategame army.
So if I understand this correctly by aiming for the lategame broodlord/ infestor army I should invest only as much gas in units as I need to stay alive and spend everything else on teching/ upgrades and ultimately infestors, corruptors and broodlords? I should also aim to trade minerals when the opportunity arises (ling runbys, spines) in order to keep the protoss at bay for as long as possible until I get that sweet tier 3 army. Thank you for your replies, this actually helps me a lot. I think at this point I've read so many guides/ bo's/ posts here that I have kind of lost track of the bigger picture.
Your welcome, and that's accurate, but easier said than done. Haha
One last thing to note, the units you are using to defend don't have to be roaches or hydras. You can defend using units in the main composition such as the infestor. Ling Infestor has grown in popularity in the ZvP match up. But be wary, if you go ling infestor, there are certain builds that will outright kill you if unscouted. ALWAYS leave yourself the option to build speed roaches.
Obviously another thing to remember is that colossus eat lings for breakfast. You pretty much can't engage a protoss army with colossus with ling infestor unless your corruptors kill all the colossus before the engagement.
Lastly, remember to get good scouting information. Try to learn cues for certain builds. A general idea of what a protoss is doing can be seen by the number of gasses they take and at which times. NOTE: At lower levels, the builds aren't refined and sometimes it can get you a bad read. I'm not sure where you stand.
Anyways, Goodluck!
EDIT: Oh yeah, and when you're playing. Constantly, keep a picture of your goal. Try not to stray from your objective. It helps a lot. People would do better if they just had a plan and stuck with it. On a side note, lots of people do cheese just to mess up their opponents. It messes with them and takes them offcourse.
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ZvZ, being the beast of a match up it is, I like doing +1 carapace roach/ling attacks in the early/mid game (9 minutes or so). However, lately, I'm finding that, even if I hide my roaches like a boss, my opponent often has roaches and lings waiting and, when I foolishly commit with my army, I get roflstomped, they counter, I die.
it's a terrible all-in and it doesn't make any sense why you'd go for carapace. +1 attack is way better - 2/0 roaches own 1/1 roaches, 1/0 roaches beat 0/1 roaches, 1/0 roaches means 2 shots lings instead of 3, so it's like a zealot with +1 vs lings.
In ZvP I get a ton of idle larva after defending pressure/ saturating the 3rd and have started teching to infestors/ taking a 4th because protoss has secured an easily defendable third (think entombed, antiga, ohana). Am I supposed to have the larva lying around or should I start making spines and replacing drones as soon as possible? Or should I just spam lings until I have infestor/ bl tech? I kinda feel like even getting close to maxed out on ling/roach is very bad if pressure/ runby's are easily denied with a gateway wall/ sentry/ immortal. I am currently top diamond if that matters.
if you are going infestors, go up to 100+ drones, then make 20 spines, then replace and make up to 100 drones again, then make 20 more spines, etc, etc. Get corruptors when he gets colossi, then BL.
Watch day9 daily #429
can someone give me a good build in ZvP.
the match up is stupid. their units trade too well against mine. atm i cannot go mass roach due to large immortal counts and zerglings are really bad due to forcefield.
atm im trying to use Hydra/ling to kill them off before they get any splash. its not going well though. im around low diamond.
v
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038#1
When opening with a 14gas/14pool, what is the best way to deal with early pools (i.e. 6 - 10 pools)?
What are the correct decisions to be making? Especially in regards to, 1. Do I continue mining gas until 100 to get speed?
2. Do I build a queen? 3. Are there defensive building placements for the spawning pool? and lastly, 4. How should I micro at the different stages? Before lings are out? If I get the queen?
I'm looking for a high end, detailed answer. I want to know the most effective way to hold it off.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295586
It's extremely easy.
No, pull off gas. At least, until you are comfortable dealing with 6 pool on your own. Basically, stop droning at 15 (so you save 3 larva). When he arrives, just mineral walk back and forth until lings and queen pop. If he morphs a spine, attack it with 4 drones, while a-moving the other 4 drones (if he runs back, you retreat, as you really just want to buy time for lings and not fight with drones, but you need to make sure 4 drones are attacking morphing spine).
If he goes drone all-in, just base trade. You should be sending a drone out immediately to his base if you see all his drones pulled with your overlords, so you can plant down a spine. You could also just attack him when he arrives when your lings pop, but micro is required to deal with his morphing spine. not much micro though.
You should plant your pool in a place not blocking the mineral line, where there is very little surface area, and preferably requires the opponent to get trapped to attack it. Basically, behind the mineral line, hopefully touching a wall. Queens generally aren't good - they take too long and if anything, spines are better. But if you go 14 pool like that, yea, go for queen - it cant be attacked, and you can get it in time anyways. Thats the one benefit of queen, it cant be attacked when building.
As for micro.. just hold position drones in the red then hit a-move again. Think of it like pull back micro, workers have neutral target priority when not attacking, so that's what you are doing. Just shift+rightclick spam on morphing spines with 4 drones, a-move with rest. no micro really required.
If he has enough gasses though, I think it's really hard. Maybe build your own? Haha
i swear to god, if I'm facing someone going ultras, and I have more bases (as I usually do against this horrible style of fast hive play on 3 base), I'm just going to get my own ultras too. broodlords way too slow, roaches and infestor sjust aren't enough.
I too am interested in the response to, what I now know to be called, a yufFE build. I assume I am still going gasless 3 hatch? Or not? Should I be getting speed before third? How do i compensate for the faster warpgate and overall faster timings from the protoss?
Scares me =/
I've been dealing with it using slowlings (i know im answering my own question). they seem to pressure with 4 zealots, which slowlings can deal with. I think a 6:30 warren, as if you were facing ffe 4 gate +1 pressure, would come out in time too for the 4-6 zealots he pushes with. you can keep an overlord over their base because they have no AA for a really long time too.
I've been thinking of countering this gate-nexus-core build by going 38 supply roach/ling all-in.
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On May 18 2012 07:35 Belial88 wrote:
You can read my guide on ZvP for answers. You should be getting speed against gateway openings asap, and if you notice they are chrono'ing the gateway after the first zealot (which usually means a quick zealolt/stalker pressure), you should make a spine in your main to walk to your natural when it finishes.
Why are you going 11 pool? It's not a good build unless you are trying to do 6 ling pressure against FFE. Make no mistake it really puts you behind 14 pool, by about 2-4 drones, and your hatch is really delayed. The thing with 14 pool, is that your money exceed larva production, meaning you can take a hatch. 11 pool is great if you are just 1 basing, but not for an expo build.
Why are you making 6 lings so early on? Going 11 pool, is semi all-innish (of course it's not all all in, but it is a coinflip). You are facing the consequences of your build - against nexus first, you profit, against FFE you end up behind, and against gateway openings your straight up really far behind.
Speedlings are amazing against 1 base toss :X. You should be getting speed asap when you figure out it's a gateway opening. If you dont drone scout, then your overlord should tell you in time.
Your guide didn't exactly cover this variation, but I see it talks about spines and speed ASAP. Honestly, I've never seen anybody skip that first zealot and go straight stalkers. Yes, getting speed ASAP is needed, but that takes a long time while stalkers are hammering on the front door. Having a spine is great, but it isn't very helpful against this much pressure. I suppose this is a build order loss where I just cannot afford the defenses necessary.
Here are the two games:
game1: http://drop.sc/182006/d
game2: http://drop.sc/182005/d
On May 18 2012 07:35 Belial88 wrote:
You should be making a roach warren and third when toss takes his third, and then making roaches as necessary against any possible aggression, and taking map size into consideration, and then drone up and take another gas, lair, as soon as safely possible.
I went roach warren and took a 3rd in the second game. There was no way for me to macro up and build an army since his army was already so much larger. He just kept coming in and taking out my 3rd, forcing me to take a 3rd and a 4th and hope one of them survives (which it did in both games). I'm listening, if you can offer critiques to this.
With the current meta consisting of a protoss going FFE, the 11p deals damage nearly every single time. If they go greedy Nexus first, they lose. If they place the canon too far out, they either have to cancel the Nexus or lose probes defending the lings. Honestly, I really HATE dealing with a pylon block delaying my natural. When I explored the 14p build, protoss just pylon blocks my natural and forces me to take my 3rd first (if they don't pylon block that too). Then they can come back and drop a gateway at my natural then go 6/7/8gate and win. Sure the 11p isn't the most economical opening, but it applies early enough pressure to catch up or win. Either that, or I'm playing from a deficit and have been out-playing most of my opponents and I really doubt that.*
*This is at high platinum/low diamond. My ZvP winrate for season 6 was 59% while my winrate in season 7 is 52%. My lower winrate in season 7 is due to my experimentation with a 14p, toss finally starting to learn how to set canons properly, and toss learning timings to hard-counter the stephano roach build.
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Please review this game I played. While my ZvP is going great lately playing Stephano style, this particular game I got crushed so badly that the entire matchup feels broken!  I have absolutely no clue what big mistake I made and what I could have done to win instead... is Ohana P favored or something, with no good engagement spots?
Basically I take 2 fast expos, muster up the 200 roach ball and encounter an unbeatable composition with lots of colossii, immortals, sentries and zealots... the resources lost tab shows me losing almost TEN TIMES as many resources... simply too much splash and forcefields!
Any advice is welcome, thanks!
http://drop.sc/182184
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Belial thanks a lot for your early pool guide. I've been reading the variations and responses. Exactly what I was looking for. Yesterday I was 6 or so zvz's in a row with only 10 pools... I won most of them but I still felt like I could have done better holding it off.
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Hello, I just played a game vs a toss. I forgot to scout during a couple of minutes. I had scout that he had a robo, but I didn't check his units after. I herp derped 200 roaches which worked 'ok' but they got worse as the game dragged on because he eventually had about 7 immortals.
I'm pretty clueless on what to do after the '12 max roach push'. I've been reading this guide. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038#1
It says I either should turtle up with infestors behind mass spines, or pressure constantly with roach (and or infestors) while teching to hive or go mutalisks while expanding and teching to hive.
TLDR: what did I do wrong in this game? I thought my macro was 'ok' till 12 minutes. I'm 'clueless' on what to do after mass roaches if your opponent is getting a good ball of stalkers/sentries/immmortals (or collussus).
I know I should tech to broodlords infestors, but how do I not die in between?
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Detail..._vs_Augustiner
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Simple question, how do you beat mothership play? i mean i held off the initial blink stalker push and saver my tird, got 4th and went ro broodlords and infestors but still got rofl stomped by mother ship and stalker even after sniping the mothership and some collosus with corruptors.. im lost at zvp
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On May 19 2012 03:51 Morphs wrote:Please review this game I played. While my ZvP is going great lately playing Stephano style, this particular game I got crushed so badly that the entire matchup feels broken! I have absolutely no clue what big mistake I made and what I could have done to win instead... is Ohana P favored or something, with no good engagement spots? Basically I take 2 fast expos, muster up the 200 roach ball and encounter an unbeatable composition with lots of colossii, immortals, sentries and zealots... the resources lost tab shows me losing almost TEN TIMES as many resources... simply too much splash and forcefields! Any advice is welcome, thanks! http://drop.sc/182184
Okay there are several problems with what happened. I'll start with the big things and then move to the nitty gritties.
First off, you aren't taking an economic advantage early. You need to build more drones. Prioritize using your larvae for drones and then when you can afford it set up your third hatchery. Try not to miss your injects or get supply blocked.
Along with that, you can't pull 3 drones to chase a probe that's putting pylons down. You only had 15 drones. 3/15 drones means 1/5 of your economy wasn't mining. If he pylon blocks, try running a drone around, dont chase it with three. It hurts you because the point of this build is to grow your economy exponentially very quickly. This matters a lot in the early game.
After that you acted too slowly. You are supposed to get your gasses at 6 minutes, but you got them at 8. Then your roach warren came down 2 minutes late aswell; it should be down at 7. You never got an evo chamber for upgrades, and your lair was late. Your extra hatchery was also late. It should be going down around the time you have mined 100 gas.
You built almost too many drones. You should have 57 ideally. Not a huge problem.
After that, you added 2 more gasses at 10:30? Why? You don't need them for this attack. Don't get them.
Then, you never really scouted or reacted to his double robo. You could have probably killed him immediately if you had seen what he was doing. He barely had any units early on.
The reason you lost is because you didn't scout and react, everything in the build was late, and the attack came late, and gave the protoss enough time to build up an anti roach army.
Also, this build is semi all-in. You have to do damage.
Goodluck! BTW, i'm not trying to be mean, i'm just critiquing.
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EPT
