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On May 16 2012 06:20 dronefarm wrote:
I'm having some problems when going for the no gas 3 hat opening versus protoss when I find out the protoss is going for a gate/core opening. A lot of the time my second hat is at my third because protoss will block my natural, and then I feel like I'm in a horrible spot when my drone scouts no forge at the front.
I've tried getting the third hatch anyway and hope to hell they still go 1 gate, I've tried just sticking on my main and "3rd", and I've tried canceling my hatch and waiting for the lings to kill the pylon and just expanding after it's gone.
A lot of the time the protoss will cancel his second assimilator (or they just start pooling chrono if they were going 1 gate) and just 4 gate me, and I don't really know how to stop it. my second hatch just dies if I go 3 base or go 2 base and keep it at the third. If I cancel I feel behind because of the lost minerals, then my spines aren't up in time to keep the toss from doing to much damge with the stalker harass, then the 4 gate is even more powerful (especially since my gas is so late).
Could someone give me a rep of how to deal with a protoss who pressures in this situation and how to come out ahead?
Just my opinion (and I'm Platinum so take it with a grain of salt) but I think you are always going to struggle against a 4 gating Protoss if you take your first expansion at the third. I would either confirm FFE/expo from Protoss before doing it, or (if I can't for some reason) simply expand at the natural after clearing the block.
Note that both Tang's guide to the Stephano 3 hatch opening and Belial's ZvP guide recommend expanding at the natural, and so do the other ZvP vs. FFE guides that I've checked.
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If Toss is going gate/core, you shouldn't be taking a third at all...
Taking a fast third is a reaction to seeing Toss expanded. It's not a reaction to FFE, just a reaction to any expansion at the natural. Opening gasless is just a coinflip opening, because you generally want to 'react' to a gateway with gas, ie speed (sometimes roaches), because it means a core is coming (you generally need gas to deal with a core, but getting gas when core is planted is sometimes a little late to deal with cyber tech, thus, the coinflip of opening gasless or not depending on the what you predict if toss will open with gateway/core, or forge/nexus).
It's all about reacting as zerg. If you don't understand what you are doing, stick to 2 base lair play. You should be safe to completely drone up your 2 bases if toss ever expands, and if toss doesn't expand to his natural, then you'll need units by 35 supply (or really, 40, but as in they will come out by 40, so maybe a spine at 30, units pumped at 35, defend at 40).
So yea, choosing to open gas or gasless is a little bit of a coinflip. If you find out he opened gate/core, just take gas asap and have speed in time to deal with aggression (you may need to use some micro if he does something like chrono out a stalker). The reason opening gasless is preferable, is for a few reasons:
1. Opening gas really puts you behind opening no gas, and speed is useless if Toss is walled in and plans to do zero aggression for the first 5 minutes anyways beyond 1-2 units
2. FFE tends to be more popular than gateway expands, and even if you do open 'suboptimally' gasless against a gateway expand, you can capitalize on just being WAY ahead of toss if you get that third up, whereas against FFE, getting a third just makes you even (due to the way zerg grows exponentially rather than linearly).
3. Reactively getting gas vs gateway openers will allow you to get speed in time to handle aggression, although a gas as late as after your hatch may require you to put down a spine before hatch finishes, or some good micro on your part (I suppose with the new queen buff though, this won't be necessary, making gasless even better as an opening).
Like Chuturo said, check out my guide. There's really no way to hold a 4 gate when when going gasless fast third - it makes no sense either. Why would you take your third BEFORE toss expands, and BEFORE you've ruled out a 1base all-in?
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What's the cost-effective solution to destroy a Planetary Fortress as Zerg? Reading the 1000 tips, I discovered that are needed 19 banelings... But it's a bit expensive! Another solution that I think is Mutalisks, but it very slow to a group of Mutas kill... The remainder options are Broodlord and Ultralisks, but they are expensive and T3, and maybe is so late to use it...
So, what's your strategy to destroy that thing?
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On May 16 2012 13:20 ZeroClick wrote:
What's the cost-effective solution to destroy a Planetary Fortress as Zerg? Reading the 1000 tips, I discovered that are needed 19 banelings... But it's a bit expensive! Another solution that I think is Mutalisks, but it very slow to a group of Mutas kill... The remainder options are Broodlord and Ultralisks, but they are expensive and T3, and maybe is so late to use it...
So, what's your strategy to destroy that thing?
Against Terran, my goal is to deny the expo from getting up as long as possible. Get burrow when you hit Lair, and send a zergling to each expansion. When burrow finishes, burrow the zerglings. Overlord speed to poop creep is helpful to. When the terran kills a ling, it signals that they are going to take an expansion and will be defending it for the next few minutes. You can exploit that by making a swarm of lings to either counter into their main or attempt to break their position at the third, depending on how strong it is. If they get the planetary up, however, it is going to be very difficult to break until you get T3.
TL;DR Best way to destroy a Planetary is to prevent it from ever going up. When it does get up, T3 is needed unless it is left unguarded.
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What's the minimum number of spines needed to hold a 4 gate? Obviously you can add more spines if you feel you need to but what's the most efficient way of doing it.
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What's the cost-effective solution to destroy a Planetary Fortress as Zerg? Reading the 1000 tips, I discovered that are needed 19 banelings... But it's a bit expensive! Another solution that I think is Mutalisks, but it very slow to a group of Mutas kill... The remainder options are Broodlord and Ultralisks, but they are expensive and T3, and maybe is so late to use it...
So, what's your strategy to destroy that thing?
Never attack a planetary or near a planetary unless:
1. you just wiped out terran's army
2. it has no AA against mutas, or you spam ITs around it
3. you have broodlords
Look at what a planetary 'costs' - it's expensive, and costs lots of money. Anytime someone invests a lot into static defense, it means they are investing LESS into army. What is the #1 point of this game? Take more bases, deny their bases. What does an army do? Get map control. What happens when you have map control? The opponent can't leave their base.
So when someone invests into a planetary (or spines, or bunkers, or cannons), it means they are sacrificing the ability to get a bigger army to get map control. So you should 'counter' static defense play by expanding. In ZvZ, if someone is massing spines (like to go into mutas), you get a third. In ZvP, when someone goes forge expand, you take a third.
Assuming the game is even, it means you have 3 choices:
1. Tech up since the opponent isn't making as much units
2. Mass up army and attack where terran has less defense, because his army is smaller
3. Take another base.
Planetaries have a huge cost, any terran will be sure to remind you how much they hate making planetaries over OCs. But you really can't ever attack into a planetary, doing something like attacking it with ling/bane will cause a huge timing where you have very little army, and terran can push and kill you before you can remake enough banes.
You dont NEED to get burrow when you hit lair (you might want the gas for mutas for example), but spreading creep by the third with an overlord on hold position is helpful, and if you want to get burrow, yes, it can delay the PF a bit. You can't really attack into a PF, and your lategame goal is BL's anyways, so don't worry about it. Think of it like terran is making 5 bunkers, or sacrificing a bunch of workers.
What's the minimum number of spines needed to hold a 4 gate? Obviously you can add more spines if you feel you need to but what's the most efficient way of doing it.
Depends on the map, and if you went gasless or not (i wouldnt recommend going gasless against gateway play, but its not like you cant do it...). On a map like shakuras, with a tight ramp, 2-3 spines will almost completely shut down 4 gate. On maps like korhal, where it's a little wider, you might need 3-5 spines. On a map where the natural is really wide open, spines are near useless.
Spines are amazing against gateway attacks, but it really depends on how wide open the natural is. Balance how many spines to make, with units, based on the map. So on a map like shakuras you can really just make 2-3 spines and a couple lings, but generall you just 1-2 spines and then focus on unit production after 30 supply. You really need roach/ling, speedlings alone won't do enough unless the map has a tight ramp. I would recommend you go for roaches anyways though, you want to transition into lair, 40 drones, and speed roaches quickly so you can deny their natural.
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Hi, diamond zerg here.
In ZvP I love going for baneling drops and bane rain, i use it both to harass economy and when i engage his army. I was wondering if it's better to get a roach centric ground army with some infestors and bane drops, while getting range upgrades, or go for a more ling centric style, with some infestors, while getting melee upgrades
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Lings don't work because 3+ colossi will just own infinite lings, or ling/infestor/banerain.
You have to go roaches, not to mention that 3 bases is always better than 2, so it's preferable that you open fast third and defend with roach/ling, establish map control into roach/ling, deny/delay toss' third with speedroach/ling, and THEN get whatever tech you fancy.
So you basically make a roach/ling army, but really really heavy on the lings, so you can bank up lots of gas for ~150 supply infestors, then have drop tech and bane nest done when you hit 200/200, so you then morph all the lings into banes, load up, attack, before toss has 5+ colossi.
It's very strong, but I find other playstyles just better. Roach aggression in general is semi-all-in due to how much it delays infestors/mutas and eventually hive, but it can work great on certain maps (bane rain actually works amazing in chokes and against defensive toss armies all crumpled together). I stopped going roach/infestor/banerain because you can get a pure bl/infestor army for the same cost. The only difference is timing, which roach/banerain/infestor does come out much quicker, which is cool. I just think mutas/nfestors/pure roach aggression are much better to delay for that time for broodlords.
I mean there's a reason you never see pros do it (slayerscoca losing games with it aside after he already lost the game anyways). It's definitely fun, I used it for over a year. Check out my zvp guide, I talk about it in the roach aggression section of the "Strategy-midgame" section.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038#1
On a side note, don't get upgrades with roach/bane/infestor. The style is just so extremely gas heavy, there's no way you can afford roach/2-3 infestors, and baneling rain (banelings are more gas intensive per supply than anything in the game, including motherships, colossi, bcs, etc) AND get upgrades. By getting upgrades, you are critically delaying your 200/200 roach/baneling/infestor timing attack. You NEED to hit before toss has 4+ colossi (double robo colossi, imo, is the best counter toss can do against it).
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I got a question - anyone ever face double robo immortal all-in from ffe? Should you get mutas, or mass roaches? I feel like with mass roach, you clean up their army, but their immortals survive and you lose your entire army and it just sucks.
And a 2nd question, about 1 gate nexus core builds. Do you get a quicker ling speed before expand (as in, later gas because you see he's going gate-nexus-core instead of gate-core-nexus), and use lots of lings to deal with like 4 zealot pressure, or do you use roaches?
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On May 16 2012 15:03 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +What's the cost-effective solution to destroy a Planetary Fortress as Zerg? Reading the 1000 tips, I discovered that are needed 19 banelings... But it's a bit expensive! Another solution that I think is Mutalisks, but it very slow to a group of Mutas kill... The remainder options are Broodlord and Ultralisks, but they are expensive and T3, and maybe is so late to use it...
So, what's your strategy to destroy that thing? Never attack a planetary or near a planetary unless: 1. you just wiped out terran's army 2. it has no AA against mutas, or you spam ITs around it 3. you have broodlords Look at what a planetary 'costs' - it's expensive, and costs lots of money. Anytime someone invests a lot into static defense, it means they are investing LESS into army. What is the #1 point of this game? Take more bases, deny their bases. What does an army do? Get map control. What happens when you have map control? The opponent can't leave their base. So when someone invests into a planetary (or spines, or bunkers, or cannons), it means they are sacrificing the ability to get a bigger army to get map control. So you should 'counter' static defense play by expanding. In ZvZ, if someone is massing spines (like to go into mutas), you get a third. In ZvP, when someone goes forge expand, you take a third. Assuming the game is even, it means you have 3 choices: 1. Tech up since the opponent isn't making as much units 2. Mass up army and attack where terran has less defense, because his army is smaller 3. Take another base. Planetaries have a huge cost, any terran will be sure to remind you how much they hate making planetaries over OCs. But you really can't ever attack into a planetary, doing something like attacking it with ling/bane will cause a huge timing where you have very little army, and terran can push and kill you before you can remake enough banes. You dont NEED to get burrow when you hit lair (you might want the gas for mutas for example), but spreading creep by the third with an overlord on hold position is helpful, and if you want to get burrow, yes, it can delay the PF a bit. You can't really attack into a PF, and your lategame goal is BL's anyways, so don't worry about it. Think of it like terran is making 5 bunkers, or sacrificing a bunch of workers. Show nested quote +What's the minimum number of spines needed to hold a 4 gate? Obviously you can add more spines if you feel you need to but what's the most efficient way of doing it. Depends on the map, and if you went gasless or not (i wouldnt recommend going gasless against gateway play, but its not like you cant do it...). On a map like shakuras, with a tight ramp, 2-3 spines will almost completely shut down 4 gate. On maps like korhal, where it's a little wider, you might need 3-5 spines. On a map where the natural is really wide open, spines are near useless. Spines are amazing against gateway attacks, but it really depends on how wide open the natural is. Balance how many spines to make, with units, based on the map. So on a map like shakuras you can really just make 2-3 spines and a couple lings, but generall you just 1-2 spines and then focus on unit production after 30 supply. You really need roach/ling, speedlings alone won't do enough unless the map has a tight ramp. I would recommend you go for roaches anyways though, you want to transition into lair, 40 drones, and speed roaches quickly so you can deny their natural.
...Surround it with zerglings works really well against me. Most times you can drop it before I can get my army into position. Seems like a good trade to me, since you should be on 4+ bases if T is taking 3rd/4th with a PF.
Zergling slipknots.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 16 2012 18:19 Belial88 wrote:Lings don't work because 3+ colossi will just own infinite lings, or ling/infestor/banerain. You have to go roaches, not to mention that 3 bases is always better than 2, so it's preferable that you open fast third and defend with roach/ling, establish map control into roach/ling, deny/delay toss' third with speedroach/ling, and THEN get whatever tech you fancy. So you basically make a roach/ling army, but really really heavy on the lings, so you can bank up lots of gas for ~150 supply infestors, then have drop tech and bane nest done when you hit 200/200, so you then morph all the lings into banes, load up, attack, before toss has 5+ colossi. It's very strong, but I find other playstyles just better. Roach aggression in general is semi-all-in due to how much it delays infestors/mutas and eventually hive, but it can work great on certain maps (bane rain actually works amazing in chokes and against defensive toss armies all crumpled together). I stopped going roach/infestor/banerain because you can get a pure bl/infestor army for the same cost. The only difference is timing, which roach/banerain/infestor does come out much quicker, which is cool. I just think mutas/nfestors/pure roach aggression are much better to delay for that time for broodlords. I mean there's a reason you never see pros do it (slayerscoca losing games with it aside after he already lost the game anyways). It's definitely fun, I used it for over a year. Check out my zvp guide, I talk about it in the roach aggression section of the "Strategy-midgame" section. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038#1On a side note, don't get upgrades with roach/bane/infestor. The style is just so extremely gas heavy, there's no way you can afford roach/2-3 infestors, and baneling rain (banelings are more gas intensive per supply than anything in the game, including motherships, colossi, bcs, etc) AND get upgrades. By getting upgrades, you are critically delaying your 200/200 roach/baneling/infestor timing attack. You NEED to hit before toss has 4+ colossi (double robo colossi, imo, is the best counter toss can do against it).
I was thinking about playing a more passive game where you try dropping banes on his probes and maybe counter a bit and do some runbys, or maybe even some infestor harass, instead of attacking with a maxed army and bane drops. Attacks usually don't work for me, and i end up loosing all of my overlords for free. I like to attack after i get ultra, and i try to tech pretty fast, to get a hive done at 17 minutes or something like that. I do have a problem against attacks with a 3+ colossi if they have enough support because they kill my lings really fast, ideally you want to neural them but he has to screw up or it won't happen. That's why i was thinking about roaches. Maybe i can adapt according to the tech and his army, and add more roaches as he gets more colossi to try to defend the push before ultras come
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^ Then learn to control your overlords better?
1 Army+Overlords
2 Infestors
3 Overlords
1a, fg, 3 move command over toss army, d-d-d-d-d-d.
Practice in unit tester. (i recommend FG a 2nd time right before dropping, and/or during).
I would really recommend against ultras in ZvP. Cost efficiency is a big issue in ZvP, and ultras won't help if toss just turtles on 3 base and then moves defensively to secure his third.
In order to get a fast hive and not die to any push, you need infestors + 50+ spines + 100+ drones, the newer stephano style infestor/mass spine style that I talk about in my guide, OR you can use mutas to keep toss in his base while you go for hive.
Roaches alone with infestors won't stop colossi. You need baneling rain, and even then if toss has double robo colossi/5+ colossi, banerain doesn't work as well anymore.
You can't play modern ZvP without taking a third when toss expands, and you can't defend that third or deny toss' without roaches. What you can do, is only make those 20 roaches at the beginning for defending your fast third, and then make only lings as you tech hard to infestors and broodlords. This is really what every ZvP is these days - they make as few roaches as they can (unless they want to be agressive with them, then they max out with roaches) while getting as fast a hive as possible, using either mutas to keep toss in his base, so that they can tech safely, or use infestors +50+ spines to keep toss away (eventually adding corruptors so he can't use colossi to siege them).
If you want to go for banerain, you have to be aggressive with them, and just remember your hive tech is delayed, so you will be semi all-in. It's not that all-in, since you will always wipe out the toss army as long as you dont mismicro, but your tech will be late and a strong econ toss can really hurt you by remaking his army really quickly if he keeps his colossi alive, and you have to do a lot of damage or you end up losing. But you just make those 20 or so roaches for defense early on, and then get 150infestors, 200 bane drop, push, tech up or remake roach/bane/infestor based on how successful the attack is.
no ultras ><
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On May 16 2012 10:49 envisioN . wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 10:51 envisioN . wrote:On May 09 2012 13:36 Rinny wrote:
@envisioN ive never seen a protoss just abort the 6gate, can you provide a replay? if they try to take a 3rd then you should be able to get get aggressive with the units you've made, either performing an all in, or doing pressure while taking a 3rd and droning I haven't saved any that this situation happens but I'll post if it happens again. Pressuring with the units sounds like a good idea Ok I just played a ZvP on Cloud Kingdom, the protoss goes for ~7 Gate robo, and upon scouting the high number of roaches I have made, aborts his attack, teching to collosus and getting a 3rd. In fear of the imminent attack, I can never saturate my 3rd base, and he steamrolls me when he gets close to maxed. This is why I would like to know how saturated I should make my bases before I spam roaches to defend a 6+ Gate attack. Replay: http://drop.sc/181279
Didn't get answered first time around.
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On May 17 2012 11:30 envisioN . wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 10:49 envisioN . wrote:On May 10 2012 10:51 envisioN . wrote:On May 09 2012 13:36 Rinny wrote:
@envisioN ive never seen a protoss just abort the 6gate, can you provide a replay? if they try to take a 3rd then you should be able to get get aggressive with the units you've made, either performing an all in, or doing pressure while taking a 3rd and droning I haven't saved any that this situation happens but I'll post if it happens again. Pressuring with the units sounds like a good idea Ok I just played a ZvP on Cloud Kingdom, the protoss goes for ~7 Gate robo, and upon scouting the high number of roaches I have made, aborts his attack, teching to collosus and getting a 3rd. In fear of the imminent attack, I can never saturate my 3rd base, and he steamrolls me when he gets close to maxed. This is why I would like to know how saturated I should make my bases before I spam roaches to defend a 6+ Gate attack. Replay: http://drop.sc/181279 Didn't get answered first time around.
You should have scouted that he took a third. Making units was the correct decisionw ith scouting 7 gate robo. If he takes a third you should see it the second he starts it with an overlord or ling, if he's taking a third drone up he can't kill you and you are safe to drone.
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I have a question:
If Toss does a proxy 10/10 gate against you, do you cancel the hatch you planted with your pool/hatch build?
The following is a rep where someone went 10/10 gate, I went 14 pool and then was able to get my 16 hatch. I drone scouted into his base and saw only 1 pylon at the ramp. At first I was like okay... this is weird... shouldn't it be on the low ground for nexus first, or there be a forge, or a gateway nearby?
It's been sooooo long since I've faced a 10/10 proxy gate, and I was really confused, but I was like... okay, i'm pretty sure i need to make a spine lol. It was dead obvious it was a 10/10 gate, but I was just unfamiliar with it. Anyways, I made a single spine, queen, a few lings, micro'd my drones very simply by basically keeping them away from the zealots, and easily won.
But this is my question:
- Should you cancel your hatch against a 10/10 gate?
I mean... either he goes straight for my hatch, and kills zero drones because my spine (and eventually queen, lings, maybe 2nd spine) all get up, OR he goes into my main, I micro and try to buy time for a spine or two and the hatch is left unbothered. I mean, either way, I can afford 200 minerals for 2 spines and some lings. it's not like the money is so tight right? If he kills my natural, oh well, it's not a big deal because unless he completely kills me, he will lose because I will eventually get ling speed and run into his base, and if he doesn't kill my natural... i don't know.
i guess it doesnt really matter, but that's what i'm kind of wondering. I've had 2 games where I didn't cancel the hatch, and it was either not an issue, or it actually helped me by buying lots of time for me.
http://drop.sc/181342
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I never really see a consensus on this, and to me it kind of seems like hydras aren't that great in zvz. It seems like the flow is like roach/infestor > roach/hydra > mass roach > roach/infestor, but it's all about third timing and drones too. I guess a more accurate representation would be like...
3base roach/infestor > 3base roach/hydra > 2base mass roach > 3base roach/infestor
3base mass roach > 2 base roach/infestor
I guess hydras are really only good at defending mass roach, but if you can defend the mass roach while taking your third (which you should be able to as long as you don't drone too hard), and getting infestor tech and 5-6 gases, you will be more ahead than if you spent gas on hydras.
Some pros seem to go third, mass roach, infestors, and THEN get hydras, but it seems to me you are just better off skipping the hydras and putting just more gas into infestors. I guess the idea is that hydras with proper support is better than just pure roaches, but why not just get more infestors? And, by going hydras, you are delaying broodlord tech.
On a side note, are hydras good against ultras? Ive had games I've lost where someone went ultras and I was going roach/infestor, and then I went broodlords which were way too slow and lost map control vs mobile ultras. I guess - how do you counter ultras as a roach/infestor player vs the recently popular pure ling/infestor into fast hive, ultras? Should you get your own ultras with your roach/infestor army, do you go roach/hydra, or do you just go pure infestor?
I was thinking of making this it's own thread, but I'll ask it here first.
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Sorry for this newbie question but how do you guys keep track of making overlords? When in the middle of the game I sometimes get supply blocked so I make an overlord. But then like a few seconds later, I completely forget if I had made an overlord or not. Is there a way for you guys to remember, like hotkeying the overlord egg once you make it or something? I'm still trying to learn the strokes of hotkeying so I don't know what to press in what order for everything yet 
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On May 17 2012 16:14 Belial88 wrote:
I never really see a consensus on this, and to me it kind of seems like hydras aren't that great in zvz. It seems like the flow is like roach/infestor > roach/hydra > mass roach > roach/infestor, but it's all about third timing and drones too. I guess a more accurate representation would be like...
3base roach/infestor > 3base roach/hydra > 2base mass roach > 3base roach/infestor
3base mass roach > 2 base roach/infestor
I guess hydras are really only good at defending mass roach, but if you can defend the mass roach while taking your third (which you should be able to as long as you don't drone too hard), and getting infestor tech and 5-6 gases, you will be more ahead than if you spent gas on hydras.
Some pros seem to go third, mass roach, infestors, and THEN get hydras, but it seems to me you are just better off skipping the hydras and putting just more gas into infestors. I guess the idea is that hydras with proper support is better than just pure roaches, but why not just get more infestors? And, by going hydras, you are delaying broodlord tech.
On a side note, are hydras good against ultras? Ive had games I've lost where someone went ultras and I was going roach/infestor, and then I went broodlords which were way too slow and lost map control vs mobile ultras. I guess - how do you counter ultras as a roach/infestor player vs the recently popular pure ling/infestor into fast hive, ultras? Should you get your own ultras with your roach/infestor army, do you go roach/hydra, or do you just go pure infestor?
I was thinking of making this it's own thread, but I'll ask it here first.
Interesting question!
Just to come back on hydras vs infestors, I personnally prefer hydras to infestors overall. But I guess that would deserve a whole discussion... especially, I guess it depends on the size of the army and engagement. My impression is that if you go for hydras, you have to go for constant agression and trade armies (if you are against infestors), as infestors will be more efficient against big clumps of units. Against that, I would assume that hydras are more efficient in small/medium sized armies... The other reason for constant agression being that you can't let the infestor reconstitute their energy. The second element is positioning: you have to spread your army when playing against infestors; therefore open space is better.
Also, playing roach hydras/ vs infestor roach, is a bit like playing roaches against protoss: you can waste a bit of your army, as long as you snipe his infestors.
Anyway, just random thoughts here
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how do you guys counter the yuffe build in ZvP? its 1 gate --> nexus --> forge and chrono 3 zealots to pressure.
whats the best way to deal with it?
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FYI to Belial and others: hydras shred ultras a new one, but only if you can keep them alive for a decent amount of time.
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EPT
