The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 264

On May 25 2012 00:52 oZii wrote:
A few basic questions.

1. I've seen people say that 7 - 7:30. Is the window to sac an Ovie is this the timing for Terran and Protoss if you are in the dark?

2. When is it a good idea to get Ovie speed?

3. If I scout a 1 base 4-gate coming my way would the proper response be to prepare with extra spines like 3-4 and make lings?

On May 25 2012 06:50 Belial88 wrote:
^ Recently we're seeing a lot of people do that with mutas - they get a double evo just like infestor play, and then get a spire, but only make 8-10 mutas, and then go for quick hive, just like infestor play. Suhosin was doing that in group c gsl 2012 season 3 (just happened), violet does a lot of it (mlg that just happened), i believe a few other zergs did it too this gsl.

I'll check out stephano vs ryung, but what I'm confused about is the popularity of infestor play. To me, it just seems like infestor play is the only choice on maps like entombed, cloud kingdom, korhal, antiga. Now maybe these maps are actually the majority of where games take place these days, I don't know, but I would think that mutas would be the majority of play (and that's what I seem to observe in the GSL, actually), and infestor just done a very small amount of the time, on these 'bad' maps.

We're definitely seeing a change in how early game is played in zvt, I'm not sure where it's going to go. I think the fast third, roaches play is based off of dealing with reactor hellions, but now with the queen buff, you can make 4 queens, spread creep rapidly, and just use speedling/queen/spines to secure your third vs hellions. So there's 2 things I think this affects:
1. We may not see roaches anymore in early game zvt, because you don't need them. Opportunistic roach/bane aggression may go away with this.
2. A faster third means later lair, which may hurt mutas (especially if you make roaches). Maybe players figure that they'd rather go 3 bases than 2, and since they went fast third, you might as well just go infestors instead of mutas? I mean personally I just take that later third, get mutas, but just make way less mutas and tech faster if the opponent goes for the macro game and quick third.

I know idra keeps ranting about how bad mutas are in zvt, but I don't see it. I see nestea, and many other zergs, go mutas with lots of success still. I don't see any metagame shifts where terrans are better at dealing with mutas. Obviously I'm not at his level of play, so I can do whatever the fuck I want with plenty of success, especially since my ZvT is so strong (at my low level, granted), but I just observe zergs doing well with mutas still, and that infestor play has bad results.

But maybe I'm just confusing bad strategy, with bad maps that zerg will lose on anyways. I know mutas wouldn't really work on antiga either.

thanks though. I was looking for where infestor play worked well to put into my guide.

So if i was going to do an ling/infestor play and trying to go quick hive to get BL but i scout my opponent going mech i should be doing roaches or keeping with my plan?

Definitely going to try this out some more,
when will you be releasing your zvt guide?

On May 25 2012 07:25 Belial88 wrote:


You'll need roaches. Since mutas don't really work against mech (unless they go hellion/tank, which terrans never do anymore specifically because 5 mutas will cause a gg), you are going to go infestors, fast hive anyways.

If Terran goes mech, grab your third asap, get roaches - you'll need them to deal with the hellions and take your third. Drone up your 3 bases asap (may need 5-15 roaches to deal with hellion harass though, but less is better, at this point, until you get 70+ drones). From there, you can either go 200/200 roaches and do aggression (works best if T doesnt make tanks, makes a lot of thors, a quick third, techs hard, eg being 'greedy' on a map that's hard to defend third), or you can fast track to hive, or you can pick a middle ground.

Massing roaches and being aggressive works best if T skimps on tanks, and techs hard on thors, upgrades, ravens, expansions, etc. It works less if Terran is more conservative, gets tanks, and actually plays safe (which good players will do). Also great if T makes way too many hellions, you can just go kill him (also probably rare with better players)

Teching quick is important if T is playing well, but is not good if terran does a 2 base mech all-in or hard aggression (like massing hellion/tank and then makes 2-4 thors and pushes with lots of SCVs). You need to confirm T is at least taking his third before teching like this, and it works less if Terran makes lots of tanks (implies aggression) instead of thors. You will need broodlords though before Terran does a huge 3 base deathpush, so teching quickly if T takes his expo is a good idea.

You can of course play a middle ground. Personally, as soon as I see mech, I get a roach warren and third (if I haven't already). Make maybe 5-10 roaches for hellions, drone up to 75, and then mass roaches while getting infestors and a fourth. I put on aggression (you cant let T mass thors, or you'll be fucked when 20 thors evaporates any amount of broodlrods with that splash) to trade and lower his thor count (mech has a hard time securing a third vs roaches, generally) while fast tracking to bl/infestor as I replace my roaches with purely infestors, hive teching, corruptors, and eventually broodlords.

http://drop.sc/182056

here's a game I go mech. I believe I crushed him with just mass roaches, but I think I started hive and infestors already.



I found a game of stephano going infestors against bomber. he loses his fourth, almost his third, but he ends up winning so I think it's a good example of infestor style, how the tech gives a significant advantage. I mean I think muta play is still better, he wouldnt have lose his fourth, but it DID show that quicker tech is strong.

I want to get a mech replay where someone gets to lategame (im sure i can get a replay soon enough), and some muta games. The new patch has sort of changed things, so I'll probaly just play ladder and tack on my own replays rather than pro vods, until I see new vods and I'll just update the guide with them.

So it should be out in a week. It's completely done, I just want the vod/replay section to be complete.

On May 25 2012 01:07 Cry4Me wrote:


1. It depends, is he going 1raxFE / FFE, then yeah, around 7 minutes should be alright. If he's not showing any desire to expand, you'll want to send it in early.

2. Are you going to use it? I mean, Do you need speed for something that an overseer cant handle? Most likely better to good position early game, unless you're going drop ofc..

3. Yeah, that seems like a good response. Get speed aswell.

On May 25 2012 09:47 oZii wrote:


Thanks for responding. I need these basic questions answered as I begin grasping the concept of zerg.

Another question Ultralisks in ZvP and ZvT when are they viable?

On May 25 2012 10:36 excellionx wrote:
ZvZ mid/high masters third timing

i'm really unsure about 3rd timing...usually i get it really quickly around 7minutes or less, but i only do this because i see other pro zergs do it.

what time should a zerg grab a third?

1) Why you started your lair only at 73 supply? I see most people going lair at 51~55.
2) When you knew that was the moment to go infestors?
3) All the things that you did in the game were planned in your build? Like researching metabolic boost at 45 supply and then picking roach warren and evo chamber and the time to put down a macro hatch and so on, or you just "felt the game" and did the things that you thought was necessary?

Another question Ultralisks in ZvP and ZvT when are they viable?

i'm really unsure about 3rd timing...usually i get it really quickly around 7minutes or less, but i only do this because i see other pro zergs do it.

what time should a zerg grab a third?

Okay, I need some composition help. I keep running to this 2 base immortal sentry stalker all in. I see it coming, and i keep losing to it.

I know it's my mechanics or scouting, it's most likely my composition or engagement thats losing me the game.

I've been trying ling hydra, and i've been trying ling infestor. I feel like the infestors don't get out quite in time.

What's the best counter? Theoretically?