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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On May 28 2012 00:35 Hemingway wrote: What's the timing on spire if one plans to go mutas in ZvP? It's not that simple, since there are a million and a half variations of getting there. 2 hatch, 3 hatch, double evo or no evo, protoss opened forge or gateway? Asking questions like this isn't really worth posting in this thread. | ||
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Hemingway
United States55 Posts
On May 28 2012 01:43 HyperionDreamer wrote: It's not that simple, since there are a million and a half variations of getting there. 2 hatch, 3 hatch, double evo or no evo, protoss opened forge or gateway? Asking questions like this isn't really worth posting in this thread. 3 hatch versus FFE -- standard play. I'd say it's fair to assume that I was asking about the way 99% of ZvPs are played considering I was nonspecific. | ||
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renkin
France249 Posts
I loosely tried out this style and its very enjoyable but I'd like to know what a good player think of it. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On May 28 2012 01:51 Hemingway wrote: 3 hatch versus FFE -- standard play. I'd say it's fair to assume that I was asking about the way 99% of ZvPs are played considering I was nonspecific. its still pretty vague. You make it when you are completely safe from a gateway timing/all-in, either because Toss isn't doing it (fast third, stargate) or because you finally have enough roach/ling (maybe even hydras) to hold. Basically, it's when you take back map control from Toss with roach/ling. It's not always the best idea to go mutas - maps like antiga and cloud are just horrible for them, so infestors or mass roach may be a better choice. Generally, the timing for a spire to be put down would be like 10:00-12:00. It's not at all about the timing though, it's more about "Am I safe from gateway pressure? Yes? Then it's time to transition to higher tech, ie spire" I remember a GSL player ( nestea or leenock ? ) who liked going vs T with 2 bases with a lot of ling to stay alive until mutas pops out. Then he would take a third while harassing and controling the map. I loosely tried out this style and its very enjoyable but I'd like to know what a good player think of it. It's perfectly viable, but I wouldn't describe it like that. You aren't using a lot of ling to stay alive - you are perfectly able to take your third against a terran who expanded to his natural, and even drone in it up in most cases (only time you can't really is marine/marauder stim or hellion/marauder). Leenock was using 2 base aggression to punish a fast third from Terran, using ling/bane/muta. Normally, you go 2 base macro hatch lair, drone up completely on 2 bases because reactor hellions deny your third unless you make a ton of lings, so you prefer to just drone up 2 bases, then you just make a handful of lings to push away the hellions as you take your third and have spire going up. All Leenock was doing was pumping out more lings than drones or a third. You don't need so many lings to stay alive, terran units are fragile and production is slow in the early game for Terran, especially as they focus on tech like upgrades, siege tanks, production, expanding. All you are doing is making enough lings to push the reactor hellions away so you can take your third. If Terran doesn't go reactor hellion (and expands of course), or you can use your queens to push out creep far enough to secure your third, or the map has an in-base third - as we are seeing much of recently due to the new queen buff - you can just take your third for free. Nowadays, many zergs are taking advantage of the fact terrans don't go reactor hellion anymore, the queen buff, whatever, and going 3 hatches quickly, and delaying lair by much more than before. you can read more at my zvt guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023 | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On May 28 2012 01:51 Hemingway wrote: 3 hatch versus FFE -- standard play. I'd say it's fair to assume that I was asking about the way 99% of ZvPs are played considering I was nonspecific. That's still a complete lack of information. You have to play reactively and understand multiple tech paths, like say if he's going 7 gate blink stalker then there's no way you're going to make mutas. Infestor ling is a way better choice, and vice versa for robotics play. Can you post a replay? That would be so much better than just asking without specifying anything. | ||
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LordImmortala
Korea (South)41 Posts
What kind of compositions, and harass should I do? | ||
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HighLach
United States132 Posts
I tried out ultra-hydra lategame, and it worked out extremely well. The ultras buffered all the damage whereas the hydras dished it out. What do you guys think about this composition? I imagine a better player would just build banelings, i suppose I could just build infestors then too. | ||
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renkin
France249 Posts
On May 28 2012 10:16 Belial88 wrote: It's perfectly viable, but I wouldn't describe it like that. You aren't using a lot of ling to stay alive - you are perfectly able to take your third against a terran who expanded to his natural, and even drone in it up in most cases (only time you can't really is marine/marauder stim or hellion/marauder). Leenock was using 2 base aggression to punish a fast third from Terran, using ling/bane/muta. Normally, you go 2 base macro hatch lair, drone up completely on 2 bases because reactor hellions deny your third unless you make a ton of lings, so you prefer to just drone up 2 bases, then you just make a handful of lings to push away the hellions as you take your third and have spire going up. All Leenock was doing was pumping out more lings than drones or a third. You don't need so many lings to stay alive, terran units are fragile and production is slow in the early game for Terran, especially as they focus on tech like upgrades, siege tanks, production, expanding. All you are doing is making enough lings to push the reactor hellions away so you can take your third. If Terran doesn't go reactor hellion (and expands of course), or you can use your queens to push out creep far enough to secure your third, or the map has an in-base third - as we are seeing much of recently due to the new queen buff - you can just take your third for free. Nowadays, many zergs are taking advantage of the fact terrans don't go reactor hellion anymore, the queen buff, whatever, and going 3 hatches quickly, and delaying lair by much more than before. you can read more at my zvt guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023 Thanks for your input. I'm taking a look at your guide, there's some nice info on the timings especially the 3 bases ! | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On May 28 2012 11:30 LordImmortala wrote: how should I react against triple stargate into air play from a protoss? What kind of compositions, and harass should I do? Triple stargate off a standard FFE? I'm not an expert, since my Toss is only diamond level, but I don't even know if you can support that off four gases. That's one of the craziest unit compositions that I've ever experienced (only ever seen it once), and to be honest it's pretty easy to play against. First, you should have an overlord by his natural expansion gas, and if he takes those gases before 6:45, then you know he's going for a super tech heavy opening like double/triple stargate, or dt. Sacrifice overlords around 7:00 to check what he's doing. If you see an empty base, you can assume he's going dual stargate or DT, since you can hide those buildings with reasonable success, but you can't hide a large amount of gateways. Fortunately, the reactions to DT and heavy stargate play are similar. - Spore at each base (against 2-3 stargates I'd recommend at least 3 spores). - Extra queens. If protoss is going heavy stargate play, I go up to like 6-7 queens, since they're super useful in the late game. - Don't waste your money building units. If you want, make a round of lings to prevent any proxy pylons from going down (I've seen some protoss do some double stargate with 3 gateways worth of +1 zealots warping into your main shenanigans), and then mass drones. If he's committing to mass air play, you won't really be able to do any form of harass other than threatening ling runbys, since voidrays tear up roaches and hydras when supported with phoenix lifts. Just push creep out on the map like a BOSS so you can secure a 4th base, and your eventual composition will be infestor/corruptor/ling/hydra if he STILL continues making stargate units, which to be honest is pretty bad. Most protoss just use stargate units to get their 3rd safely from any maxed roach push, and then transition out to a more standard deathball. These protoss are the ones that bother me the most, since they can use the void ray and phoenixes to deny your 4th if you don't have mad creep spread, and on certain maps like antiga it's almost impossible to take a 4th anyway. Basically you can think of it like Zerg going mutas - you're trying to harass and pin him in his base while you expand, eco up, and build a huge army that can crush his when he moves out. He's doing the same thing with air units. The one thing to watch for when protoss does this is carriers. I thought carriers were laughably bad until I lost 2 games in a row to the same protoss who did double stargate into third base into mass +3 upgraded carrier/mothership on 5+ stargates. If you let him get a critical mass of carriers and a mothership without, you've pretty much lost since vortex prevents you from ever attacking him with corruptors or hydras, so be conscious of this and try to punish him with multiple drops and ling attacks. This abuses the severe lack of mobility of his units (carriers/mothership/voidrays) while letting you trade units away to make more corruptors and infestors. I've had games versus Sky Terran/Sky Toss where my army is literally 100% corruptor/infestor, but this is so ridiculously gas hungry you need like 6 bases to do it properly. Good thing carriers are slow, so you can basically expand everywhere without worrying about dying to some random attack timing. On May 28 2012 13:39 HighLach wrote: I have a slight discussion to bring up. In ZvZ, I never really understood what the best late game composition would be, so i had been screwing around. I know some people say pure roach, others say ultra ling infestor, and some choose broodlords. I tried out ultra-hydra lategame, and it worked out extremely well. The ultras buffered all the damage whereas the hydras dished it out. What do you guys think about this composition? I imagine a better player would just build banelings, i suppose I could just build infestors then too. The best lategame I've ever seen is ultralisk/infestor/queen/corruptor. I lost a ZvZ on metalopolis to a top masters player doing this composition who I thought I outplayed the hell out of, but I just lost the late game fight straight up. He was originally going roach ling allin, but I defended it while keeping my third hatch up (poor micro on his part), so I thought I was going to autowin... I droned up, defended his mass speedroach attack with roach/hydra, scouted him going ultras, and I thought broodlords would l0l all over ultras since the broodlings will just mess up the ultra AI and they'll never be able to attack my hydras. But apparently not cause he went for like 8 ultras, 10+ queens for mass transfuse on the ultras, and then a crapton of corruptors to take out my blords. He only made like 3 infestors the whole game. It was really weird, but I got up to the late game army that I thought just rolls everything in ZvZ (infestor/brood with a lot of hydras on the ground since they melt ultras with DPS), and even though I was like 3 bases up on him he just rolled my army with ultra/queen/corruptor. I was thinking about how to counter it, and I guess the answer is just to make more corruptors and use my infestor count to fungal his corruptors in a straight up fight, then just push forever with blord. It was pretty allin since he rushed ultras on like 65 drones and no 5th base, but even so I thought it would be pretty straightforward to kill it off but it wasn't. Plus he popped like 20 corruptors at one point and got me down to 200/100 supply killing overlords. | ||
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JoshSpeed
Estonia18 Posts
thanks in advance . | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On May 28 2012 23:37 JoshSpeed wrote: Sorry if somone has allready answered this but , i have herd alot about these 4 queen openings . Is there a build for it? thanks in advance . This is just a quick skeleton build: 15h/15p gasless As soon as the hatches finish, build 2 queens. When the queens finish, start 2 more queens and ONE spine crawler, you won't need any more than that. This entire time you should be building drones and using your queens to push back hellions and spread creep outwards. Take a third hatchery around 45 food if you haven't scouted any marauder hellion allin, and then take all 4 of your gas (Spanishiwa style). You should be spending it on lair -> ling speed -> 1/1 upgrades in my experience, but I'll often go speed before lair if I feel like it. This is a pretty flexible build, so if you want to throw in faster speed or faster roaches then go for it, but keep in mind that the point of opening gasless is to mass drones. | ||
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JoshSpeed
Estonia18 Posts
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On May 29 2012 00:02 HyperionDreamer wrote: This is just a quick skeleton build: 15h/15p gasless As soon as the hatches finish, build 2 queens. When the queens finish, start 2 more queens and ONE spine crawler, you won't need any more than that. This entire time you should be building drones and using your queens to push back hellions and spread creep outwards. Take a third hatchery around 45 food if you haven't scouted any marauder hellion allin, and then take all 4 of your gas (Spanishiwa style). You should be spending it on lair -> ling speed -> 1/1 upgrades in my experience, but I'll often go speed before lair if I feel like it. This is a pretty flexible build, so if you want to throw in faster speed or faster roaches then go for it, but keep in mind that the point of opening gasless is to mass drones. Excellent I was just about to ask about going gasless as long as possible. This is a good rough draft I can practice with. In ZvP based on scouting a ffe you want to delay gas as long as possible? If its Gateway expand is it advisable to just throw down say 2-3 spines to be on the safe side? | ||
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DeaDHazza
England5 Posts
I have a huge problem with mech. I've asked people time and time again "How do I beat mech as Zerg?" and they simply reply "mass broodlord or mass roach". Well, I've tried that, and every time a terran goes mech I lose. I've tried every unit composition but every time my army just evaporates... I have the replay of the game that I'm particularly frustrated with, if you want to look at it and help me with things I could have improved on please watch it. http://drop.sc/187582 I don't understand what went wrong; I had more bases than him, I harassed loads with nyduses, I went mass roach and mass brood, I even ran out of minerals at the end even though I had way more workers than him, but still, his army was huge. I'm currently rank 3 in diamond if you wanted to know. I hope you can help me, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks, DeaDHazza (Sorry about the small bit of bm at the end of the game, I had lost to the exact same thing the previous game and I was in a state of anger.) | ||
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romelako
United States373 Posts
On May 29 2012 03:03 DeaDHazza wrote: Hello, I have a huge problem with mech. I've asked people time and time again "How do I beat mech as Zerg?" and they simply reply "mass broodlord or mass roach". Well, I've tried that, and every time a terran goes mech I lose. I've tried every unit composition but every time my army just evaporates... I have the replay of the game that I'm particularly frustrated with, if you want to look at it and help me with things I could have improved on please watch it. http://drop.sc/187582 I don't understand what went wrong; I had more bases than him, I harassed loads with nyduses, I went mass roach and mass brood, I even ran out of minerals at the end even though I had way more workers than him, but still, his army was huge. I'm currently rank 3 in diamond if you wanted to know. I hope you can help me, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks, DeaDHazza (Sorry about the small bit of bm at the end of the game, I had lost to the exact same thing the previous game and I was in a state of anger.) notes on your game: • 8:30 you send a scout in and it just hovers over the starport. if you went down a little farther, you could've seen the 2 factories and drop your roach warren sooner. • 9:55 your making only zerglings and your opponent has BFH. he's countering your composition. • 13:30 you have 55 to his 66 workers...you wasted so much larva on lings that should've been roaches MUCH SOONER. this is a result of poor scouting and going with the metagame. you should be sitting on around 70 drones with a fourth base coming. • 15:03 terran establishes his 3rd, you don't even have a fourth. even bfh cannot deny your fourth base in the top left corner, so why aren't you taking it? • 18:53 your first attempt at an engagement goes terrible. you lose all of those lings in an instant. those lings should've been drones and the leftover larva should've been pure roach. what are you doing with zerglings against that many bfh? at least morph them into banelings. • 19:28 fourth BARELY established and has no mining. games over. terran has a better economy than you...it wasn't mech that beat you--it was his economy. 72 to 57 workers in the terrans favor. Mech isn't your problem, it's managing your economy. I can guarantee you, you could've beaten him if you had 70 drones when you had your 3 bases and just made mass roach. Infestors aren't very good until later on when vikings come into the picture. Just make pure roach on a GOOD economy and you can win. Here's a replay as an example. I utilize multi-pronged aggression to take out his greedy double expansion. Pure roach can beat this easily if you've got the economy for it. Replay: http://drop.sc/187830 | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On May 29 2012 01:07 oZii wrote: Excellent I was just about to ask about going gasless as long as possible. This is a good rough draft I can practice with. In ZvP based on scouting a ffe you want to delay gas as long as possible? If its Gateway expand is it advisable to just throw down say 2-3 spines to be on the safe side? To be clear, it's not for ZvP, it's for ZvT. ZvP you don't get double queen because you're going pool -> hatch -> queen -> hatch -> queen -> queen, and walking the queens about your expansions to properly hit injects. In ZvP you want to take double gas at 6:15 and drop a warren at 6:30 if you scout no gas taken at the expansion, 7:15 or so if you do scout gas taken (and probes mining it). If it's gateway expand you want to take one gas ASAP because you need ling speed to take map control back from protoss, which gives you the freedom to drone while monitoring the protoss' expansions and units. If you allow him map control when he's gone gateway first, then he can either play super economic (in which case you've wasted the money on the 2-3 spines), or do an allin which you have a super low chance of scouting since you don't have ling speed. That reason alone is why I rally my 13th drone to scout in ZvP, if I get to his base and see a gateway first, I can immediately throw down a gas and get speed fast enough that map control remains mine for the entire early game. | ||
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joeyBanana
Germany77 Posts
out of the map pool, which one would you consider muta maps and which ones more infestor-favored? (regardless of the MU in first place) would like to hear some of your experiences regarding these two styles considering the season 7 mappool. ive vetoed antiga, entombed and TDA btw. cheers bros and thx in advance joey | ||
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ThePiedPiper
Canada102 Posts
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On May 29 2012 04:57 romelako wrote: notes on your game: • 8:30 you send a scout in and it just hovers over the starport. if you went down a little farther, you could've seen the 2 factories and drop your roach warren sooner. • 9:55 your making only zerglings and your opponent has BFH. he's countering your composition. • 13:30 you have 55 to his 66 workers...you wasted so much larva on lings that should've been roaches MUCH SOONER. this is a result of poor scouting and going with the metagame. you should be sitting on around 70 drones with a fourth base coming. • 15:03 terran establishes his 3rd, you don't even have a fourth. even bfh cannot deny your fourth base in the top left corner, so why aren't you taking it? • 18:53 your first attempt at an engagement goes terrible. you lose all of those lings in an instant. those lings should've been drones and the leftover larva should've been pure roach. what are you doing with zerglings against that many bfh? at least morph them into banelings. • 19:28 fourth BARELY established and has no mining. games over. terran has a better economy than you...it wasn't mech that beat you--it was his economy. 72 to 57 workers in the terrans favor. Mech isn't your problem, it's managing your economy. I can guarantee you, you could've beaten him if you had 70 drones when you had your 3 bases and just made mass roach. Infestors aren't very good until later on when vikings come into the picture. Just make pure roach on a GOOD economy and you can win. Here's a replay as an example. I utilize multi-pronged aggression to take out his greedy double expansion. Pure roach can beat this easily if you've got the economy for it. Replay: http://drop.sc/187830 Just watched your replay. Thanks for uploading. Is there a reason you go +2 armor and +1 weapons? Is that better when you know your facing mech? | ||
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XxJuicexX
United States48 Posts
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