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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
- Don't let every engagement be THE engagement.
- Bait out Force Fields, rush in with Lings (you shouldn't have a whole lot of them), as they can be re-made easily, by the time he is on 5+ Sentries, you should be on fully (or almost fully) saturated 3 bases with a macro Hatch.
- Don't let the Protoss pick the fighting spot, use the Overlords. If the game prolongs, you can sacrifice Overlords, unless the Protoss never cleared your Creep. Keep them in the main route spots and pick your spot where he would have to use a lot of Force Fields to protect/split his/your army.
- I like to run in with Lings and pretend I'm going with Roaches as well, then I back out the Roaches and some Lings if possible, if he used the Force Fields that is (trying to snipe Sentries with Lings as well, so he HAS to throw down some Force Fields).
- Always try to snipe high-energy Sentries, even overDPSing them is worth it (focusing them down with 10+ Roaches), as they can make those 10 Roaches fighting the Protoss army into 5.
- And of course, always come from all sides possible, not just running in a straight line, that's making it too easy for the Protoss.
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This is going to be a little silly sounding from someone lower than either one of you Zerg players (top dia), but the problem appears to lie in your macro. You can take my advice or decide I'm just a n00b-know-nothing, your choice.
From my analysis, I'd say its almost entirely macro-related. The replay showed your gasses being taken at about 6:23. While its not awful, you usually want to take them around 6:00. I also noted your gas overlord saw a double gas being taken in P's natural without any sort of reaction. Double gas is pretty gas-intensive and a second overlord positioned to take a peek in the main would've seen instead of SGs, he was just making regular gateways which might have cued you in to him going rather sentry-heavy.
The second thing I noticed is that by the 8 minute mark, your macro was already in a little trouble. You were at 67 supply which is by no means awful, but at mid-to-high master you really need to hit 70 or more. A few drones doesn't seem like that big of a difference, but those tiny differences are what make high masters and mid-masters. You also did a bit of a weird reaction to what P was doing. P was going for a third base and made it rather known by moving into that third position with his army to kill your ling. You should've run that overlord in to check it regularly after that to make sure he was expanding (just the presence of a probe would set his intentions off).
I saw you putting down a relatively early infestor pit and starting the pathogen glands, but you also put down a second evo chamber that you never used for the main push and you had already made so much roach/ling that you were pretty much committed to that one path. If you want to do the Stephano reaction to fast thirds of spine wall + rush to hive and BL/festor, Stephano gets his infestor pit down at like 9 minutes. Its really that fast. Yours was almost 2 minutes afterwards and also after you had already invested quite a bit into your roach/ling army.
The timing that P took his third is a little weird so I can understand the mixed reaction but it just doesn't work so well. The only reason Stephano's third-denial of mass roach/ling works is because of its timing. If you're even like 30 seconds to a minute too late, P can hold it off no problem while keeping his third up as well. 12 minutes is a generous timing for us ladder-folk. Realistically, pros are maxing at 11:00 or 11:30 at the very latest. Imagine having that 200/200 army at his front (not on the way, already there) at the 11:00 mark in your replay. THAT is why your army failed I think. Just timing difference.
The same reason also applies to why Stephano's super-fast 4th base into hive/BL/festor/spine-wall works so well is because of its timing when P takes a third at like 8:30-9:30. He's able to see that and immediately make the switch before he spams roach/ling. This way those 20-30 larva you spend on roach/ling turns into all drones. A ridiculous economic boost which allows him to practically fully saturate the 4th base in 1 single round of larva. Even if the P chose a weird later timing like 12:00 or 13:00 to get aggressive after taking his third, you have had your 4th up for a good 70-90 seconds already mining full gasses and fully saturated minerals. Plus at 12-13 minute mark, Stephano usually has about 12-16 spines already built in the middle which secure a very easy 5th and sometimes even 6th base depending on the map. He also has made mass infestor and a few roaches if the P tries to move out with a half-assed army instead of the 15-16 minute move-out of the massive mothership+all unit deathball that they should be.
This way when P reaches that deathball state, they are facing a wall of at least 20-30 spines, about 12-14 infestors full of energy and about 14 BLs and the rest corruptors as well as a 5-6 base fully-functional Zerg. Its a very effective way to react to a fast-third Protoss.
At the lower levels (not Code S pro), a lot of these P can get away with "in-the-middle" builds I feel. They can do things like this weird 9:30-10:30 third expo timing instead of using the strong gateway army they made to attack. Then they just keep playing defensively and have the constant threat of using that army at any point between the normal 9 minute attack timing of a 2 base and the 15-16 minute timing of a 3 base attack trying to catch the Z making too many drones or not timing his tech correctly.
The catch really is all in the timing of Stephano's responses from what I can gather. If he sees a later third base than 9:00 or so, he throws down his infestation pit, saturates that 4th, and with the next round of injects he can begin his massive spine wall around the same time his infestors are becoming eggs to hatch in timing with that pathogen upgrade. He's very safe from 11:00 on using this style since he'll just have so many spines already, he can simply switch over to all roach/ling off not 3 base with macro hatch, but 4 base with 2 macro hatches and 6-8 queens pumping creep/injects to stop literally ANY timing between 10 minutes and 15 minutes with just that response.
If he sees a really early third (like 8 minutes), he knows the army must be tiny and he can bust it. If he sees a 2 base push, he knows he has around 68-72 (no exaggeration there, that's real numbers) drones at their move-out time of 8:00 and he can simply crush the push. He also misses no injects and is constantly macroing on a level very few can claim to match.
Anyways, that's a bit of a wall of text, but it shows Stephano's comparison of ZvP to yours and I think you'll understand and see where the problems lay. GLHF in future ZvPs.
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I've been having trouble in zvp where I can't get my drone count high enough at certain benchmarks. For example, by 6:00 minutes i should have at least 30 drones, but I only get that amount 45 seconds later. How do I get to this benchmark, what am I doing wrong?
Heres a replay of one of my games : http://drop.sc/199599
It'd be cool if you gave me other sorts of criticism, because it would be great
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On June 18 2012 04:17 Monsyphon wrote:I've been having trouble in zvp where I can't get my drone count high enough at certain benchmarks. For example, by 6:00 minutes i should have at least 30 drones, but I only get that amount 45 seconds later. How do I get to this benchmark, what am I doing wrong? Heres a replay of one of my games : http://drop.sc/199599It'd be cool if you gave me other sorts of criticism, because it would be great
I had similar problems over a month ago. Particularly, at 6:00 I noticed pro's would be at 42-44 (and about 62 @ 8:00) supply and I could only ever manage about 36. You had a similar amount in your game hitting about 35 at 6:00 and 61 at 8:00. It was only after I shifted overlord timings that I started hitting 42 and about 68 respectively.
The only timing I changed was the making the 34 overlord at about 31. Tang gives a better overlord breakdown (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324733), but I know the disparity has something to do with having larva after an inject but waiting10 seconds for an overlord to finish. You always made an overlord 2-3 supply before the block, something Belial recommended in his guide. Technically there's really nothing wrong with this, but I'm thinking there's a couple of overlord timings before 70 supply that should come earlier to better accommodate larva from an inject.
I haven't done this yet, but you could always download some stephano replays (or your favorite zerg) and copy the exact supply where they make overlords. Idra, Ret, and Machine all hit 70 supply (while streaming) by about 7:30 (and then make roach/evo and other structures, so they don't go above 70 until after 8:00).
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I have recently switched to zerg from toss and have been enjoying the race.
However, I am running into a lot of problems with terrans doing a mech style.
I cannot seem to break into their base with siege tanks patrolling the high ground and if i engage directly I just die.
I aim to hit ling, bling, infestor, broodlord for late game tech but I have problems switching into broodlords and my infestor control is horrific.
I am silver league and mechanics aren't really down yet like hitting injects whilst engaging an army or not getting supply blocked.
In general I do not seem to have a build order for terran but mech just seems to be the thing I die to most.
Here is a replay:
http://www.mediafire.com/?x4kq6oem238v65i
(I am aware of my terrible reaction to harassment and my over commitment to roaches in this game but this is the only recent replay I can find of a mech player)
Is my macro just the key to beating this or is my composition simply wrong?
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United States4883 Posts
On June 18 2012 04:17 Monsyphon wrote:I've been having trouble in zvp where I can't get my drone count high enough at certain benchmarks. For example, by 6:00 minutes i should have at least 30 drones, but I only get that amount 45 seconds later. How do I get to this benchmark, what am I doing wrong? Heres a replay of one of my games : http://drop.sc/199599It'd be cool if you gave me other sorts of criticism, because it would be great
If you watch enough Ret or Stephano replays, the are generally just always making 1 overlord at a time (about once every inject) after 28 supply. If you do this and use all available larva, you should end up having a supply count that looks something like "50/76" and have natural room at the top of your supply cap for emergency roaches or something.
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On June 18 2012 08:43 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 04:17 Monsyphon wrote:I've been having trouble in zvp where I can't get my drone count high enough at certain benchmarks. For example, by 6:00 minutes i should have at least 30 drones, but I only get that amount 45 seconds later. How do I get to this benchmark, what am I doing wrong? Heres a replay of one of my games : http://drop.sc/199599It'd be cool if you gave me other sorts of criticism, because it would be great If you watch enough Ret or Stephano replays, the are generally just always making 1 overlord at a time (about once every inject) after 28 supply. If you do this and use all available larva, you should end up having a supply count that looks something like "50/76" and have natural room at the top of your supply cap for emergency roaches or something.
Are you saying they make an overlord everytime an inject pops off, or that they are making overlords consecutively(1 right after another)?
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Hello,
I need help solidifying my zerg play.
I prefer to use a ling/infestor/ultra style.
Typically I open with a spanishiwa style zerg.
15 hatch/14pool <- he suggests 16hatch/15pool but I constantly get hatch blocked and sometimes I feel i need the lings early to get map control/defend.
I will then proceed to grab all 4 geysers around 6:00.
When should I drop my infestation pit? start hive?
How do I deal with early protoss pressure with 6gate etc.
Eventually If I stall long enough I get ultras out and win the game with 3/3 upgrades.
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^ Hi, if you googled "Zvt Guide" or searched for "zvt guide" in the teamliquid search, you should have seen my ZvT guide posted, but I know not everyone is aware of the search function or sees the forum rules!
I know I just posted this on this page, but please, take the time to check out
Belial's Comprehensive ZvT Guide!
You can also go to gomtv.com, or sc2casts.com, and find any ZvT game and just fast forward to see if the zerg played infestors, which should at least be 50/50 (id say much more these days though). Just watch what they do!
On a side note.... you should be going 15hatch/15pool, if not later pool. Spanishiwa's guide is horribly outdated by now, please, check the post dates, as the metagame constantly changes. And you should not be getting all 4 gases at 6:00 - standard play gets 1 gas early on for speed, and then a total of 4 AFTER taking a third hatchery, generally around 50-60 supply, but even as late as 70 supply (although a 2nd gas around 50-60 at the very least).
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Here's a super fast deathball that I was completely lost at reacting to it.
I opened stephano style and he opened with the immortal sentry push.
Except he never pushed out. Dropped colo den and made the attack 2~3 minutes later.
I scouted too late and didn't know what to do. I tried to bait forcefields like I would vs immo sentry but lost too many. Made a round of roaches instead of corruptors and got rolled.
http://drop.sc/199866
What is the correct reaction?
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On June 18 2012 01:46 SC_Blade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 12:05 Amaterasu1234 wrote:http://drop.sc/198609Just played this game vs a teammate. Obviously, I'm the Z. I have been trying to beat this guy and other tosses for well over two weeks now to absolutely no avail, and it feels like everything I do is a total waste of time because of games like the above where ff's shut down every thing I try to do. I feel, in this game, I had him several time but ff's literally saved his life at least twice. Honestly, I don't know what I'm doing wrong here. I will be the first to admit that I should be making more drones as the game goes on. I can take care of that quite quickly, but, even so, I do not believe that will fix my problems, considering my main problem with zvp are the engagements. Forcefields prevent me from doing anything meaningful. Having the exact same problem as this guy. Every single engagement seems useless due to ff's. No matter the supply difference, or how much you out-macro the toss, they come out on top of every engagement. 'Forcing forcefields' becomes void when he has 4/5 or more sentries.
Yesterday, I was practicing with another P...and he kept all-ining me with this same build (actually, it was more allinish with another gate). And, at the end of a bunch of loses, I realized that I was over droning. The P usually only has 35-40 probes by 8 minutes. When I watched the replays, I'd make an extra round of drones, bringing my total to around 65, which is too many. 53-58 is enough to hold off this push. Pretty much, if he doesn't take his third, you shouldn't be making drones. You should be constantly scouting for the third and running overseers through his base.
Today...I beat this build...but I still lost this guy...his pvz is pretty good...
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Hello, Im a Platnum Zerg player. And i seem to be having trouble on getting out of the mid game. I make lings early game then roaches and lings mid game..but when late game starts I keep making roaches and lings. I have the habit of not transitioning when i see my opponent transitioned into 3rd tier. and it feels so bad losing when i know i could win if i just transitioned. Is there a way to learn how to get out of this habit? It's hurting my enjoyment of the game. I WANNA GET BETTER!
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Gateway openings... What's the best way to crush them?
http://drop.sc/199880
Backstory
+ Show Spoiler +High Diamond Zerg (Me) vs Mid-masters Toss (Him).
The game starts and I'm lagging extremely badly, to the point that the disconnect window comes up. I pause at first and he immediately unpauses. I state that it is "unplayable" and attempt another pause which he also turns off. Now I'm rather perturbed and consider cheese but play normally anyway.
I send my scouting drone and see that he is opening gateway first (smart), but I had no idea how to counter it. So I go get my third and decide to get early roaches instead of hard droning, with double gas containing 2 harvesters each. All things considered I felt like the roaches popped at the perfect timing. The only problem is that it felt very inefficient and very low economy.
I came here to figure out a few things:
-How do I best counter gateways openings at my level (Low-masters MMR)*
-What my composition should be during the push
-How much, if any, static defense I should use
-How to finish the game if I manage to hold off the push
-Specific timings I should be aware of
-Other advice in general
![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080313053948/starcraft/images/0/09/Gateway_SC2_Game1.jpg)
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What is the general timing for Infestation Pit when going late Lair/early Hive in ZvT? I keep losing to pushes that would have been a cinch to hold off if my infestors were already out, but the aforementioned pushes always seem to vary in timing so I haven't been able to modify my build on my own. I've read all the recent guides but the best one (Belial's) goes by supply rather than time, and supply tends to fluctuate, especially when going ling-heavy (not an easy unit to retain).
As a corollary to that question: how necessary is a Baneling Nest if one is going for a ling/infestor composition in the midgame? Sometimes I feel as though I can hold early/midgame Terran aggression with just lings, and sometimes I wish I had some banelings in the mix. Is a Baneling Nest scouting dependent or should I be investing a crucial 50 gas every ZvT?
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So I go get my third and decide to get early roaches instead of hard droning, with double gas containing 2 harvesters each.
that's why you lost. Why would you try to do a roach all-in (because that's what you did - if you are making any more than the bare minimum to defend, especially this early in the game, it's an all-in, gg if you dont do enough damage, especially when you fail to do ANY damage) AND take a fast third? It's one or the other. Can't do both.
Read my zvp guide, it shows you how to beat and play against gateway openers. facepalm.
Hello, Im a Platnum Zerg player. And i seem to be having trouble on getting out of the mid game. I make lings early game then roaches and lings mid game..but when late game starts I keep making roaches and lings. I have the habit of not transitioning when i see my opponent transitioned into 3rd tier. and it feels so bad losing when i know i could win if i just transitioned. Is there a way to learn how to get out of this habit? It's hurting my enjoyment of the game. I WANNA GET BETTER!
google "belial zvt guide" and "belial zvp guide". Actually by now, you can even just google 'zvt guide' and 'zvp guide' and my guides will be the first ones up. Thank me in my guides.
What is the general timing for Infestation Pit when going late Lair/early Hive in ZvT? I keep losing to pushes that would have been a cinch to hold off if my infestors were already out, but the aforementioned pushes always seem to vary in timing so I haven't been able to modify my build on my own. I've read all the recent guides but the best one (Belial's) goes by supply rather than time, and supply tends to fluctuate, especially when going ling-heavy (not an easy unit to retain).
As a corollary to that question: how necessary is a Baneling Nest if one is going for a ling/infestor composition in the midgame? Sometimes I feel as though I can hold early/midgame Terran aggression with just lings, and sometimes I wish I had some banelings in the mix. Is a Baneling Nest scouting dependent or should I be investing a crucial 50 gas every ZvT?
Watch the replays/VODs I posted in my guide of the infestor play, or just watch your own replays. When the person is at the supply benchmark I refer to in my guide, note the time.
Problem solved.
Most people use a mixture of supply and time, due to how the game works. eg - go by supply when going fast third in zvp because every zvp is the same up to the 8:00 mark, but go by supply in zvz because of early game ling/bane pressure. You should to.
I would say the baneling nest is a necessity against mid-game Terran aggression. It's not necessary if Terran is passive and takes a quick third. If you can't identify this, you just can't be greedy, and have to take a standard baneling nest when you have 3 bases up. You need to get your baneling nest at a certain time (probably around 70). You only cut it, like I state in the guide, if you know by scouting, that you can be greedy and cut it. You don't have to be greedy to win, it just helps.
50 gas is not much when on 3 base, 6 gases, 70+ drones. You should probably use it if you clearly feel the need to use it, and cut it if you recognize certain play, that you can scout for (like fast third if you get a lucky overlord) AFTER TIME and you get better. You definitely need it if Terran is on 2 base, and if you can't tell, then you are just going to have to pay 50 gas that you should be paying anyways.
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On June 16 2012 16:18 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I just watched this. Looks very standard. You engage in the middle of the map at around 13min with 150ish food. You could have been maxed at around 12min and attacked him, deny his third or at least trade some units. You had the money, you had the larva. Not much else to say here. If you go for this ling roach composition and he goes immortals into 3rd base, you NEED to trade at 12min or so. I dont know how much I agree with this - yes, you need to be maxed by at least 12 minutes (ideally 11:30) if going for a roach/ling max or you suspect an immortal/sentry all-in or immortal/sentry expand (so you can deny his third on more open maps, otherwise you will need tech against it will trying to do pressure but not losing too many units). If someone is going immortals into 3rd base, you need to start teching immediately. Hopefully, you recognize its not an all-in but rather an expand play because he isn't pushing out with 2 immortals at ~9:15-9:30 and setting up aggressive pylons and start teching to spire/infestors and taking extra gas right away instead of making more gas heavy roaches, which is the trade-off - if he goes expand, and you max out on roaches against immortal/sentry expand, you will lose because your tech is way too far behind. If he goes for an all-in, you need to be massing roach/ling and be around 140+ supply at around 10:00 when he hits your base.
I agree with this. My advice was more like "I would fold pre flop but as played go max roach". I'm assuming you didn't watch the replay. Basically the zerg does both. He puts down infestation pit, spire and 4th base while still going for a roach ling attack. Obviously his attack was weak and late.
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On June 18 2012 16:26 Belial88 wrote:
So I go get my third and decide to get early roaches instead of hard droning, with double gas containing 2 harvesters each.
that's why you lost. Why would you try to do a roach all-in (because that's what you did - if you are making any more than the bare minimum to defend, especially this early in the game, it's an all-in, gg if you dont do enough damage, especially when you fail to do ANY damage) AND take a fast third? It's one or the other. Can't do both.
Read my zvp guide, it shows you how to beat and play against gateway openers. facepalm.
haha thanks man, was so tired I completely forgot about your zvp guide
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I'd like some help on positioning your army and scouting, more specifically; should I be active with my lings? Is it good to be inactive with your lings early game? And finally, how do I deal with early Banshees? I played two games today and 6 banshees absolutely destroyed me, even if I had spore crawlers with extra queens. I'll edit this with a replay later, but I remember that I was destroyed by drops in my main and didn't scout him. On that, how do I stop drops v t? or P, I was absolutely demolished by warp prism harass, in fact I'm having problems with drops in general.
Thanks in advance.
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Hello
I would like to ask what the best reaction to a Protoss wall in (at the bottom of your ramp, with 3 pylons and then mass cannons behind that) assuming you've done a 14pool 16hatch. I have lost to these annoying cheeses repeatedly recently, mostly because I don't know what to do when the pylons go up. Most of the times it happens to me, I just nydus, but the protoss predicts it because it's one of the only things I can do on one base, then they get vision on of their whole base, preventing any nyduses finishing in their base.
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what's the most common ZvZ cheese against 15h?
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EPT
