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Hello All
I have a question, half discussion ect, Ive been working on a fast 3rd vs T, similer to the current ZvP meta, using lings/Queens for early game defence, the basic idea
15Hatch
15pool
16Ovi
1x Lings (scouting/ Tower)
21 Hatch (3rd)
2xQueen for Injects
<Drones while Queens build
3xQueens (1 for the 3rd and 2 from your hatchs for creep)
Then the style is up to you, 1gas just for speed and bane nest if needed/ wanted, or double gas at main for upgrades, or can make 4 for a early Lair for Muta or festors and so on ect ect the use of the 3rd is discussed a little bit below
The reasoning
First off im Only Gold getting into Plat level so this is a asking if it sounds viable in about Dia+
Ive been talking to a few T at Masters and a few Z i know at Masters and one thing that always seemed to pop up is CC before Factory, if they bother to do it any more for Hellions, into whatever strat they do for vZ, but they all say they only really push out ect at around 10 mins with marine tank or later (13-15) with Bio Mech for a poke and maybe kill off some army or take the 3rd for them, and the Z have been saying that T are getting Laxed with using the Hellions for scouting as the Queen buff and either dont bother with them or sac'ing them to get a few drones kills as the Z dont prepair properly anymore (Q buff)
This is a very rough build atm so im looking for feedback on how likely we can be this
greedy
The Idea
Bit greedy but helpful for greedy T's!
Fast 3rd base for Larva and Eco, and all that 3rd base goodness
Current working ideas
Use it to speed Droneing to do a similer max out to the ZvP
Use it as a macro match for extra army if attacking/ defending
Use it as a Sac to delay a T all in/ get ready for that Cloak banshee you didnt see coming
Extra Gas for super fast Tech/ greater number of Tech units
Best case is they dont look early enough and you are ahead with a full working base before they think to expand
In gold at least, i have the 'spare' 300 mins as having no Larvee for drones and as no gas is taken early for min increase
Defence
The idea behind defense is using lings on creep with Queens to repel early marine pushs and Hellions, and ofc Queens for Banshee, Tanks should come after speed and if they decide to kill of the 3rd gives you a long amount of time get more army/ position/ speed to finish
going 5 queen is a bit pushy but useful if you think they are 2 base timing, lay down 4-6 creeps and leave the 3+4th queen to gather energy for transfuse and then you have 2Q injecting and 3Q for defense with Lings and Spines if you feel SUPER put out
Please Discuss ^^, im happy with any crit, good or bad, im a big boy!
Some Questions from the origional postings and answers
"Just wondering what you would do versus 2 port banshees. No evo chamber and no lair so if he/she masses 4-6 banshees it would be an insta loss. you can relly on scouting and an emergency ev chamber but that only works on paper not in the real game. Eager to here your thoughts! -Alex"
Going on the 6:20 timing for banshee at that point understanding that the T would have turtled and have no army to push/ poke with leaves you to macro in peace, at that time you can be at 3 bases finished 4 Queens and 1 @75% <at 3rd if you build there, will have 1 queen at each base if move the 3rd/4th Q to there> allows tripple inject and 2 queens to Tumars/ transfuse my Bad macro leaves my with 36 drones on 2 bases 3rd current has none, 8 larvee and 215 mins to spend with 46/54 supply
so there is room there for a Evo long before they turn up, and seeing as Spores are min only to build then you can stay gasless if you like, and having 3 base up and working by 6 20 and being able to defend you can then go full throttle into production mode and roll them as they will have stayed on 1 base to do the 2 port.
"- make sure he is not all ining you on one base before doing that kind of things! (a marauder /helion push would be devastating for instance, although it isn't common for sure, or some 4 rax marine early push). But can you make sure he is not all ining before you actually take your third, or are you just praying that he will play standard? even if he is not all-ining you, what if he brings like a couple of marines and deny your drone going to your third, or even block your third with some building? true, you have queens, but it'll take some time before you actually get there with them."
Your 3rd gos down for 4mins ideal, could hit earlyier if you like (3:45 with good drone movement timings) dependent on Map, so you have until 4 mins to decide if they are proxying/ 4 raxing, will have a pair of scouting lings and the chance of them randomly deciding to think to block a 3rd is unlikely in the Meta and anything after 7 mins isnt worrying as you can then go production mode (6 mins for 3rd to finish and a full round of drones if you feel super safe) and then start the tripple inject army production and will match the army size very quickly and have huge advantage with defenders advantage, depending on what you see with the scouting lings you can take gas and roach warren ect ect at around 6mins and be fine and have plenty of mins/ drones to make spines if some odd timing appears
- is it actually worth it ? just have a look at the moment where your hatch pops out: can you send drones there to exploit it or not? the risk being that you take 300 minerals away from drone production in very early game. I feel that a slightly later hatch would be as useful... ( you may tell me that you can do it vs protoss, but here I am afraid the comparison is a bit misleading, as terrans can be more aggressive early than FFE toss).
Also, what would be your gas timings?
I think it is worth it, its a win/win/win situation i think, i know losing 300 mins from drones may seem like alot but either
A) It finishs and can be 'Hidden' and can be abused with them not knowing to look for it early,
B) It finishs and they scout it and cant suddenly punish it at 6 mins letting you get away with greed, they should have made a Tech choice by then
C) they find it and spend time to kill it, any pre 6 mins push i can think of (from T) will take ages to kill it off, and if pre 6 mins then you can cancel it and lose 125 mins (includeing 50 for the Drone) giving you the time to make spines or emergency lings
Drone and larvee
At 6 20 36 drones on 2 bases 3rd current has none, 8 larvee and 215 mins to spend with 46/54 supply
so if all is quiet then you can do a transfer drones for when it finish's or spend your larvee on Drones for it
As for the speed of the 3rd, the reason im tinkering with the fastest time i can get it is for a few reasons
A) If Rax expand then you have stupidly fast 3rd
B) If they push early then it has some HP to 'Tank' before cancel ect
C) Too early for T to send marine to kill drone before taking it and one worker cant prevent both, standard drone defence for bunker rush
I think I have outlined the last point 'the T being aggressive' with the reasons above and at anytime before 6 mins you can cancel the hatch and its a normal 15 hatch expand with 4 Queens
Gas timings
The reason this gets its own section is because this is the only thing in my build i dont like to set in stone as it was, i prefer Gasless as long as i can, if i can get away with 8 mins no gas then i would love it ^^ then take 6 at the same time and BOOM tech and +1/+1 for 10 mins and any tech of your choice right off the bat, but if you scout and you know its going to <strat A,B, or C> and will need <responce A.B, or C> then throw down gas and baneling/ roach ect as soon as you know, i also dont think you need Ling Speed super quick for this match up currently, Hellions kite speedlings pretty well allready if they paying attention and micro and 5Q slowlings on creep <3,4th queen dedicated to creep spread> with spines can hold any pre 7 push the reason i mention 7 as the default before/ after time is because after 7 you will have 3 full sat base and lots of creep and queens ect can throw down 6 gas and double Evo and lair and speed and all that good jazz
Again, any questions, feel free to post and ill reply ^_^ Replays of my Gold Ladder will be added when i get in from Work to put them on
Asu
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progamers have been doing that for ages i think nestea came up with 5minute 3rd now its the standard, whne i dont see it on ladder/progames it throws me off. yes it works at highest level ppl have done it and refined it, so id advice u to copy them and learn from it. vs 1rax fe btw
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There Are a lot of really good pro zergs using a 6 queen opening. IdrA has been using it a lot on his stream recently. You should check those VODs out. It sets up a insanely good midgame.
Basic structure is
1. Economical hatch first (15h 16p no gas)
2. Build queens 2 at a time until 6
3. Take third by 5 min mark
4. Double gas at around 50-55 supply
5. Baneling nest, macro hatch and evo chambers
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The diffrence between this one and the two that you 2 have mentioned is this hatch finishs at 5 45, not started at that time, still sets up the 6 queen defence and all that good jazz, i have seen some vods of Idra doing his 5 min hatch, the point of this one is a stupidly early/ greedy 3rd, started at 3 45 then haveing tripple inject to catch up to get 3 full sat bases very very fast, this isnt so much a 6 queen based strat it just allows you to do it if you want, it was more deisnged for 13 min hive while staying safe doing so
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high masters zerg
I'm not going to completely shut this idea down because I haven't done any real testing on this yet, but I will give my thoughts.
The reason TvZ is Different than PvZ is that terrans always have forces building. Protoss will leave you alone for 7-8 minutes for the most part and so taking that fast 3rd is easy for you since he had to invest in a forge first instead of a gateway first.
Terrans start off with barracks and factories and thus a fast 21supply 3rd would be no problem whatsoever to kill off. I don't think banshees would be the problem here as those can easily be defended, I just simply think they can walk over to your 3rd with a marine/X force at 6 minutes minutes and kill your 3rd. I've had it happen to me in many games where I have taken a later 3rd and had a roach ling army. Against terran you actually need to invest in units early on and those minerals that you are spending on that 3rd hatch suddenly becomes extra spines or queens that you could have had to defend some sort of push. It just seems too greedy to me.
That being said, I think it'd be interesting to think about taking a fast 3rd hatchery like that in your base as a macro hatch. But it still may be too greedy.
Note: I think if you just extend that 3rd hatch timing to a little beyond 21 supply, you'd be in a better position. Getting it before the queens is too much in my opinion though.
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On June 22 2012 21:55 MstrJinbo wrote:
There Are a lot of really good pro zergs using a 6 queen opening. IdrA has been using it a lot on his stream recently. You should check those VODs out. It sets up a insanely good midgame.
Basic structure is
1. Economical hatch first (15h 16p no gas)
2. Build queens 2 at a time until 6
3. Take third by 5 min mark
4. Double gas at around 50-55 supply
5. Baneling nest, macro hatch and evo chambers
The reason it's so insanely good is unless your opponent puts on a ton of pressure early you will never have to make more than 2 lings until infestors/mutas and 2-2 (unless he does some kind of timing push, which you can crush if you see it and make lings in time).
Queens cost 0 larva so you can drone to the max. It's actually kind of silly.
I think the queen range helps alot but I think this build was amazing before that and people just didn't realize it. I think with range 3 queens I would still be doing this build.
In my games so far I've been going 4 queens into 3 gasses and a 3rd base at 6 minutes. It seems to flow nicely, maybe I'll go play around with 6 queens though, but a bit faster ling speed/upgrades seems nicer.
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Sounds a bit too greedy , even after the Queen buff. Xd
In the "nomal" metagame you build your 3rd after your first two Queens are at least half way done and then you build 2 more queens and in some builds even 2 more.
I developped my build around getting the erlyest 3rd base posssible.
My goal is to have 6 queens and be save against absolutly everything.I am going for a 15 hatch w/out gas. I use the first two queens to spread creep and be safe against everything cheesy. Then i build my third and 2 additional Queens which i use for creep spread.
when they finish I build two gases and 2 additional queens so i have 3 queens for creepspread.
With the gas I first build zergling speed, then a bainlingnest and in the end a lair which also triggers me to build 4 more gases.
At this point you are save agaist everything.
Your build seems to be some kind of "Metagame abuse" because noone plays reaktor hellion or 2 rax anymore.
I think you would loose to them immidietly. Xd
Hope it was helpful Xd
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Yah, ~5 minute 3rd are actually really safe vs. Terran FE builds. Just get out 4-6 queens with some speedlings, and you can basically defend ANYTHING the terran can throw at you for the first 7 or so minutes of the game.
Speedlings and ~6 queens on creep with transfusion gives me nightmares.
I'm serious about the last statement X_X
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But even IF he does take out the third... if you realize it early enough (or even halflate), you pull drones from the third and have lost what... 350 minerals? Now you have a 1500 HP decoy at your third and lots of time building units, where you COULD have lost your natural to a really aggressive push.
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Fast 3rd is good but I dont think you can ever get away with gasless til the 8 minute mark against a half decent Terran.
I go 5:30-6:30 3rd standard if I dont see some sort of 1 base play, and so far the way I do it has been super safe. I watch alot of TLO so I have copied a style he has been doing, and tweaked it to my liking.
14 dronescout (rally the 13th drone to go scout, primarily for 2 rax proxy, if you are lucky you can get a look if it is rax gas opening and you might even see the expo go down if its 1 rax FE)
15h
16p
17 ol
2x queens (inject with both, then use for creepspread)
26 ol
28 ol
2x queens (injection queens)
30+ ish overlord sac (sometimes I dont do this if my initial drone scout or lings spot everything I need to see, or if the map spawns dont allow it)
6 mins I take 2 gas and make a roach warren. If I see or suspect some sort of 1-1-1 expand (rax, gas, fac, cc, starport or something in that order(this is really really rare atm, and I feel its pretty allin)) i make 1 evo at the same time (6 mins)cause T can have banshee with cloak done at 7:10 ish.
If its just standard 1 rax cc opening and I play totally blind I make 1 evo at 7, cause if they do the 1-1-1 cloak banshee build of that opening it hits at 8 with cloak. Then Ill add the second evo at 8 and start +1+1.
This is just the standard outline if I dont get a good scout of. I sometimes tweak the timings quite a bit depending on what Im up against. The roach warren makes it super safe against 6+ hellions or early marine pressures (cause you wont have lingspeed in time for that), and with proper evo timings you are safe against any banshee play.
Sometimes I skip the roach warren blind and go 2 extra queens but that is a bit of a risk if you are playing blind.
If you dont have to make any roaches gas goes into lingspeed, +1+1, lair in that order.
1k master Z with 87% winrate ZvT last season (I used to main T so this mu is by far my strongest, the other two is both around 50) doing only this opening, so as far as I know this fast 3rd opening variant is super safe.
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Speedlings and ~6 queens on creep with transfusion gives me nightmares.
I'm serious about the last statement X_X
I got visions about how transfusing speedlings will become the next big thing
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I haven't been studying pros do it, but I've always taken a fast third in ZvT, and sometimes even a fast fourth in Daybreak if he does fast 3OC and gets hit by my ling flank. When I do a fast 3 base I tend to go 5 queen opener, then add on a macro hatch + 1 creepspread queen. I tend to follow it up with late infestors but fast 2-2, and do baneling drops on his third (that is amazing btw) as I try to transition into infestor. Very risky. Weak against banshee play, and really heavy 2 base non marine tank timing pushes (bio, bio+thor, mech, etc.) and is kinda hard to transition out of vs mech because you get +1 melee fast.
EDIT: Weak vs banshees because cloak forces either gas in overseers or mineral income in spores (you'll need 1 per base if you're not making any overseers) and the build is very greedy already and can't really spend resources to beat cloak banshees. You need to be able to kill it cost effectively while hitting all your injects almost perfectly, so there's no room for queen transfers around bases - which is why I say "very risky". You try to do everything at once.
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On June 22 2012 23:01 MAAeThErOs wrote:
I haven't been studying pros do it, but I've always taken a fast third in ZvT, and sometimes even a fast fourth in Daybreak if he does fast 3OC and gets hit by my ling flank. When I do a fast 3 base I tend to go 5 queen opener, then add on a macro hatch + 1 creepspread queen. I tend to follow it up with late infestors but fast 2-2, and do baneling drops on his third (that is amazing btw) as I try to transition into infestor. Very risky. Weak against banshee play, and really heavy 2 base non marine tank timing pushes (bio, bio+thor, mech, etc.) and is kinda hard to transition out of vs mech because you get +1 melee fast.
How is a 5 queen opening weak against banshees? Nothing about that build should theoretically be bad against banshee. Evo chambers should come relatively early for upgrades and the queens should be ample antiair. As long ad you are scouting and reacting well you should have roaches fast enough to deal with mech pushes too.
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On June 22 2012 22:47 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +Speedlings and ~6 queens on creep with transfusion gives me nightmares.
I'm serious about the last statement X_X I got visions about how transfusing speedlings will become the next big thing
Invincible zerglings sounds pretty scary to me.
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@OP
Too greedy m8. You will die to 16 stimless marines, or 4hellions will just burn all your workers because you have no queens to block them yet. First queen at 21 is too late.
You will also die to reaper->expand.
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Hi platinum terran here. I've been seeing this type of fast third a lot lately and frankly i think it's really easy to kill. I'm sure if you are really good at defending it can be a problem but in the 5 or so games ive played against it i've pretty mch been able to waltz in with some MMM and kill the third. However, if you snipe medivacs and transfuse a big ball of queens can be really hard to kill. Just my experiences but im no high level player or anything.
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2 queens before third is always better if you have the second hatch to inject. People take their third before 2nd queen (generally, I don't, but thats for creep spread not larvae) because they want to set up the infrastructure to make lots of drones and have 3 bases. 2 queen + 2 hatch > no queen 3 hatch. Just wait a bit to get your third, as other people said, around the 5 minute mark.
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Sorry for the huge delay in my replying I have been away from my computer for a few days, and the general idea im getting is that this is only working for me because the league im in and wont work as well/ at all when I get higher leagues?
thank you for the input  if anyone is still interested in the replays I can upload some or do a Vs AI one to show just the build ignoreing what the other players might be doing
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I am totally no expert in this game, but it appears that some people here must be wrong  Considering that the masters players say it's a breeze to defend a really fast third, yet everyone else is saying that they could kill it with the units that they would have. Again, I'm no expert, but you shouldn't have medivacs at 6:00, assuming you expanded. And also, it's only 40 seconds after the third hatch finishes until their production will exceed anything you have, and if you don't pressure then zerg can make drones and win.
I shall definitely try this style today! It seems like a nice alternative to the early roach agression -> third.
Thanks for the writeup! ^_^
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You are more then welcome Mawie, and ill do some number crunching and get some times down for drones/ larvee ect for 3rd after the first 2 queens and the 3rd before and see at what point the 3rd base larvee 'kicks in' vs the 5 min 3rd and then the timings for T push's to compare
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EPT
