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On June 25 2012 05:55 Mavvie wrote:I am totally no expert in this game, but it appears that some people here must be wrong  Considering that the masters players say it's a breeze to defend a really fast third, yet everyone else is saying that they could kill it with the units that they would have. Again, I'm no expert, but you shouldn't have medivacs at 6:00, assuming you expanded. And also, it's only 40 seconds after the third hatch finishes until their production will exceed anything you have, and if you don't pressure then zerg can make drones and win. I shall definitely try this style today! It seems like a nice alternative to the early roach agression -> third. Thanks for the writeup! ^_^
The point is that if you throw your third down earlier than 6 minutes, and the terran just went with 4 naked rax after cc and moves to your third, you have to make lings or sack the third.
If you make lings the third does nothing for you, if you sack the third the third does nothing for you.
I realize this is called a greedy third but there is no reason, with the current state of ZvT, to be this greedy.
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I need to say this is mainly vs a FE T, not a go to build for any situation, but that being said here are the numbers from doing tests without outside player input, ie being left alone for the first 7 mins, this was to gauge the potential of this build not to show its viability
3rd before queens
5:00 game time
105 mins, 24 drones 3 larvae
2Queens
7:30 game time
760 mins 59 drones 11 larvae
3Queens
3rd at 5mins
5:00 game time
135 mins, 21 drones, 2 larvae
7:30 game time
435 mins, 55 drones, 0 larvae
both games played with 1 set of lings being made when pool pop'ed and was both played using 10ovi 15h 16p and queens up to the amount of hatchs and wasnt supply blocked in either game.
with a decent player trying this I think it might be doable for a ladder game or 2, as you can see in the 7:30 of game 1 i have more larvae then I can get rid and plenty of mins for 3 queens and gas/evos ect ect
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Top 8 diamond terran here.
Any particular reason you're going for a 4 minute third?
Have you spent any time going for a more standard 6 or 7 minute third?
A meching terran will be able to take down that third with hellions alone. It's also vulnerable to bunker rushes off of 1 barracks. You'll be surprised at how aggressive a terran can be after their first rax is complete should you throw down a hatch that early.
Equally you'll be just as surprised at how easy it can be to defend a third when you take it at 6 - 7 minutes. You'll be able to transfer drones too rather than having to make drones to saturate both your natural and third at the same time.
There's nothing wrong with a little greed, but I detect a hint of novelty in a 4 minute third, it doesn't seem practical or safe.
EDIT: ahh I see the numbers, good for you for testing it all out!  I stand by the novelty statement but who cares what I think, follow your heart... your gross zerg heart...
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I tried this build, and managed to survive a 3rax semi-all-in, losing only 3 queens and ALMOST losing my hatch :D i felt like SUCH a troll when my hatchery survived with so little health. But anyways, despite not following your exact BO, i DID manage to survive the game, and had SUCH a macro advantage that the rest of the game was mine
Here's the rep:
http://drop.sc/204770
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Please for god sake, some master+ zerg PM me with a good good build vs zerg as terran. Im so lost in the matchup that im actually considering crying myself to Protoss. its fucking terrible right now
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I don't know why but going gasless until the 50 supply mark seems very risky even against a FE Terran. With 6 queens, it still seems like a decent amount of hellions would be able to outmaneuver the queens even on the creep. 2 queens/hatch isn't going to do much to defend 6-8 hellions constantly alternating between your nat/3rd frying drones.
That said, I've been trying to find a good timing to get a 3rd against T. Most of the time I just play it safe and build a macro hatch first since losing a 3rd to Ts first push is almost auto GG.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 25 2012 08:16 GRCJH wrote:Top 8 diamond terran here. Any particular reason you're going for a 4 minute third? Have you spent any time going for a more standard 6 or 7 minute third? A meching terran will be able to take down that third with hellions alone. It's also vulnerable to bunker rushes off of 1 barracks. You'll be surprised at how aggressive a terran can be after their first rax is complete should you throw down a hatch that early. Equally you'll be just as surprised at how easy it can be to defend a third when you take it at 6 - 7 minutes. You'll be able to transfer drones too rather than having to make drones to saturate both your natural and third at the same time. There's nothing wrong with a little greed, but I detect a hint of novelty in a 4 minute third, it doesn't seem practical or safe. EDIT: ahh I see the numbers, good for you for testing it all out! I stand by the novelty statement but who cares what I think, follow your heart... your gross zerg heart...
The 3rd gos down at 3:15 so by the 5 min mark its about to pop, and yea ive had alot of aggressive T try to punish this but vs high gold/ mid plat players they put themselves behind imo, too many have scouted it near finished and suddenly go full throttle attack (extra rax and all marine push) ect ect but by the time they can do a reaction attack the 6 queens can be up and at any time i can swap between drone and defence mode, teh amount of larva can simply overwhelm most pushs with slow lings alone and this isnt a you must stay on gas less, it allows fast tech (6 gas if you keep your 3rd) and roach warren +1 gas at any time will keep you alive if they over commit to Hellions, also with the increase of mins and drones you can be libral with the spine crawlers, they are helpful late game as well, if they pull back then you have a 3rd and can move the spines beind the min lines to help defend drops ect ect
not so much a novelty, just a greedy build that seams to get away with it more oftern then I would have thought, thats why I brought it up here
+ Show Spoiler +I don't know why but going gasless until the 50 supply mark seems very risky even against a FE Terran. With 6 queens, it still seems like a decent amount of hellions would be able to outmaneuver the queens even on the creep. 2 queens/hatch isn't going to do much to defend 6-8 hellions constantly alternating between your nat/3rd frying drones.
That said, I've been trying to find a good timing to get a 3rd against T. Most of the time I just play it safe and build a macro hatch first since losing a 3rd to Ts first push is almost auto GG.
the build isnt designed to stay gas less until XXX time or XXX supply its a stay gas less until you feel under pressure then take all together to boom your tech, as for the 6-8 hellions, 4 queens sitting in 1 area (after spreading some creep hopefully) will buy enough time to get A)Roachs or B) spines the drone increase and min increase allows as such and I find this super early 3rd to be a better then thought time as no one expects it and people underestimate the amount of defence you can suddenly produce to hold off people 'knee jerk' attacking (going "what greedy bastard, better go kill him")
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I want to have a discussion here but every time anyone says anything they say: "DISCLAIMER: This works on my level but probably not at masters"
Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose? I imagine you all want to improve, so do a build that lets you get there.
On June 25 2012 10:55 Mindflow wrote:
Please for god sake, some master+ zerg PM me with a good good build vs zerg as terran. Im so lost in the matchup that im actually considering crying myself to Protoss. its fucking terrible right now
Wrong thread?
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On June 25 2012 17:09 Clarity_nl wrote:I want to have a discussion here but every time anyone says anything they say: "DISCLAIMER: This works on my level but probably not at masters" Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose? I imagine you all want to improve, so do a build that lets you get there. Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 10:55 Mindflow wrote:
Please for god sake, some master+ zerg PM me with a good good build vs zerg as terran. Im so lost in the matchup that im actually considering crying myself to Protoss. its fucking terrible right now Wrong thread?
I agree with this statement to the letter, this is not a [G] so point out things that are flat out wrong/ need to be improved/ removed or even added (this isnt pointing at you Clarity, note to readers who just seam to say this will die to XYZ,),
I belive this to be a ideal Zerg BO (when/ if finished, please dont take that to mean i think this is the best build ever ect ect, its a idea in progress) keeping in like with the Z strenghs, drone to saturation then flood with units to deny/ kill/ cripple ect ect and is a BO based on reactions, one i dont think i have come across before, most BO's i have read/ glanced over have been 'This is to do this at this food then do this then do this' kind of deals, i think Zerg should be played with sheer greed in mind, what drew me to try make one like this is to allow such play, playing gas less until i can say they are doing/ going to do/ cant do this, how many times have you blindly threw down a baneling nest to then see them going Mech ect because then when i can say 'they are doing this, i can react with what i need, they playing super greedy also? then i can focus on creep spread and all that non army jazz and think about taking more bases/ keeping map control/ containment, and vice versa if they are makeing pure marine then i know i can morph more banelings then if they going MM or whatever army they doing
Someone above also asked why I felt it needed to be this greedy, my reasoning is simple, T are ment to have a better early game then Z and a worse off late game, by rushing the 3rd base, the safety questioned, forces the game out of the early game alot sooner and in the Zergs favor with +bases and +income and a more 'hard counter' tech path.
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On June 25 2012 07:28 Asukurra wrote:
I need to say this is mainly vs a FE T, not a go to build for any situation, but that being said here are the numbers from doing tests without outside player input, ie being left alone for the first 7 mins, this was to gauge the potential of this build not to show its viability
3rd before queens
5:00 game time
105 mins, 24 drones 3 larvae
2Queens
7:30 game time
760 mins 59 drones 11 larvae
3Queens
3rd at 5mins
5:00 game time
135 mins, 21 drones, 2 larvae
7:30 game time
435 mins, 55 drones, 0 larvae
both games played with 1 set of lings being made when pool pop'ed and was both played using 10ovi 15h 16p and queens up to the amount of hatchs and wasnt supply blocked in either game.
with a decent player trying this I think it might be doable for a ladder game or 2, as you can see in the 7:30 of game 1 i have more larvae then I can get rid and plenty of mins for 3 queens and gas/evos ect ect
The problem here against a good opponent is that when he identifies what you are doing he can send 4 marines and 2-3 scvs, make a bunker at your third and you have no way to stop it yet. All the other pressures I feel can be dealt with against everything except a 1 basing terran ofc.
Just to throw in some ideas here. I have been thinking a while on a 3 hatch before pool opening in ZvT. There have allready been lots of pros playing with the idea in ZvP, although I never really liked it there because of the possibility of cannon rushes.
And the only reason I like the idea in ZvT is that you use the 3rd hatch as a macro hatch/walloff, or maybe even as a way to connect natural and third with creep. I think its safest to pull it out as a wall. Then you take your 3rd base/4th hatch at 6:30. You sacrifice some early game creepspread compared to the 4 queen opening build I explained earlier in the thread, but with the isanely fast 4 hatches you get an insanely ammount of larvae quickly, so it has the potential to be really good if going ling infestor ultra for example.
This is ofc only doable if you manage to varify with your initial dronescout that your oponent is doing 1 rax gasless fe, or cc first. Any reaper opening or 2 rax would destroy this build.
And unlike the first build order I posted, this is just an idea, it is not tried and true. I will test it out in actual ladder matches asap, and post replays and thaughts about this. But I think it might be legit.
Here is a game I just did vs a computer, just to show the idea in practice.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-266062.jpg)
I am still of the opinion that the OPs initial ideas are not legit at any "high" level play.
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TiBoxy roughly how long does it take to get 4 marines and 2-3 scvs to finish building a Bunker/2 includeing travel time ect ect, i dont play T too well so im not too sure on the timings, but this isnt a 3rd before pool build or anything so slow lings/ queens are still about, if you see the small marine push with the starting lings (that arnt delayed, the only delay from the 2 hatch/ 5min 3rd is about 15-20s on your first 2 queens) then you can make some slow lings to deal with it as if it was a normal bunker push, the only diffrence is there will proberly not be any creep for spines, but pulling drones from the 2nd to kill the scv's/ bunker and a few lings to go after the marines isnt a problem i dont think as if thats all the pressure they are aplying then the 3rd would live and then you can catch up and lost mining time very soon
*note* im at work so cant watch the rep just yet.
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United Kingdom20291 Posts
Taking a third hatch before confirming a 1 base all in is not coming will result in your guatanteed death if it is. Any mid masters terran will dispatch you with ease, it is fundamentally impossible to hold 3 bases to 1, and taking the third so early and then losing it will set you behind too far to compete. If you want to take the third early, confirm the terran has another base first (and even then, ive seen tricky shit, recently particularly, baiting a gasless zerg to take a third base behind 4/6 queens and cancelling the CC after killing the scouting overlord to 1 base all in) so that you can live through scouting and knowledge of timings, instead of dumb luck and incompetance from your opponents.
Also, i have no idea why you are using such a build order with zerg, if you suspect 2rax, 15h14p would be the best response, but if you were to scout a factory building and a completed wall, or a cc, then you can delay to 15h17p. Dont go further than 17 though, which gives you pool and hatch finish at the same time, you can instantly double queen and have a notably stronger economic base.
That in of itself is really not the biggest deal, but the way you list things off by supply is a very worrying and bad way to play if you are looking to improve, and so is doing practically anything that you didnt see a pro player do. I am trying to break into low masters right now, i am a horrible player, and all of my opponents are, too, my last memories of gold league were going ~70% win with 17nexus 20nexus in every matchup on a smurf and having a significantly better (5x+ smaller) ratio of unspent resources to income than all of my opponents, and superior multitasking skills. If you have basic game knowledge (know what every unit does) and you can adapt, then the only things you need to learn are macro (timings and amounts of buildings, etc, not lololololo90drones), mechanics and multitasking, and if you dont mess them up you shouldnt have any trouble reaching masters. The reality is that the vast majority of players (>99%) are subpar and incapable of keeping up with things like spending money, and learning to do things like that makes strategy almost irrelevant when facing those players who cant match you in that regard
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On June 25 2012 22:02 Asukurra wrote:
TiBoxy roughly how long does it take to get 4 marines and 2-3 scvs to finish building a Bunker/2 includeing travel time ect ect, i dont play T too well so im not too sure on the timings, but this isnt a 3rd before pool build or anything so slow lings/ queens are still about, if you see the small marine push with the starting lings (that arnt delayed, the only delay from the 2 hatch/ 5min 3rd is about 15-20s on your first 2 queens) then you can make some slow lings to deal with it as if it was a normal bunker push, the only diffrence is there will proberly not be any creep for spines, but pulling drones from the 2nd to kill the scv's/ bunker and a few lings to go after the marines isnt a problem i dont think as if thats all the pressure they are aplying then the 3rd would live and then you can catch up and lost mining time very soon
*note* im at work so cant watch the rep just yet.
If the Terran is going 1 rax, cc then 2 gas at 20 (the most normal opening right now), then he will arrive as your hatch finishes, with the bunker done (if you scout him making the bunker then ofc it will not be done, but still you would have to fend of 4 marines and 1-3 scvs with slowlings and drones alone (no queen). Trust me, you will come out way behind, and it can be a 0 investment scenario from the Terrans perspective. Also all the lings you have to make to keep the hatch alive is potential drones you could have been making, and you dont even have your initial 2 bases satchurated at that time, so up to this point your hatch has been nothing but a bad investment that havent started to pay of yet. Meanwhile if your oponent did the build I mentioned he will potentially have hellions reinforcing a little over 1 minute later. And with your opening, the resources doesnt line up to take 2 gas and a roach warren at 6 mins, (especially not if you had to make lings) so those hellions will be kinda hard to defend with 3 spread out queens and slowlings with 0 creeptumors.
I dont want to be overly critical, just laying down the facts as I see them.
The reason why people go 4 queens then 3rd is to connect that base with creep and then some before something really nasty can arrive. With your opening it is just not possible. Yes you will ofc have more larvae and more potential drones, but imo you are not really safe from anything.
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This sort of build would die to a lot of things, just random marine/bunker pressure or anything really because you dont have creep and you don't have ling speed that early so the 1 rax FE player could throw down extra barracks and just rally to your base.
if you would like to get a greedy fast third check out Intimate ZvX with Stoic. He is a GM zerg doing weekly tutorial videos. check out episode 18 it showcases ZvT. also since you are a lower league then check out his mechanics VOD Intimate ZvX with stoic mechanics. GL HF!
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On June 25 2012 07:28 Asukurra wrote:
I need to say this is mainly vs a FE T, not a go to build for any situation, but that being said here are the numbers from doing tests without outside player input, ie being left alone for the first 7 mins, this was to gauge the potential of this build not to show its viability
3rd before queens
5:00 game time
105 mins, 24 drones 3 larvae
2Queens
7:30 game time
760 mins 59 drones 11 larvae
3Queens
3rd at 5mins
5:00 game time
135 mins, 21 drones, 2 larvae
7:30 game time
435 mins, 55 drones, 0 larvae
both games played with 1 set of lings being made when pool pop'ed and was both played using 10ovi 15h 16p and queens up to the amount of hatchs and wasnt supply blocked in either game.
with a decent player trying this I think it might be doable for a ladder game or 2, as you can see in the 7:30 of game 1 i have more larvae then I can get rid and plenty of mins for 3 queens and gas/evos ect ect
The difference not seen in the numbers is the amount of queens you have in the second variation, which is used for mass creep spread, safety, and map control (or if they snipe tumors then you're wasting his scans).
On June 25 2012 22:37 TiBoxy wrote:I dont want to be overly critical, just laying down the facts as I see them.
The reason why people go 4 queens then 3rd is to connect that base with creep and then some before something really nasty can arrive. With your opening it is just not possible. Yes you will ofc have more larvae and more potential drones, but imo you are not really safe from anything.
QFT as well. 1 rax bunker pressure would probably be enough to shut down your 3rd or at least force you to make lings/pull drones and you'll almost certainly suffer some damage while he can salvage the bunker and back off taking no damage while still expanding at his normal rate.
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High Lvl Master Zerg Here -
To the OP. Yes It can work. However, the build HAS to be adaptable.
For example: Only go for a third base if you scout, 1 rax cc, 14 cc, 1 rax macro cc. If you scout any gas, do not get a third hatch. This means you need to wait to place, or not place, your third base until your lings poke at them.
A drone scout is not good enough because a terran can wait to put down the cc and bunker until you leave or die from the rine.
What I have been playing around with:
they have gasless expanded -->
30 -35 hatch third hatch, with 2 queens,
Drone till early 40's,
3 gas, then roach warren, + evo (for delayed shee attack)
another round of drones, 3 OL.
then delayed roach rush + third queen at new base. (like 5-8 roaches)
These roaches should poke out in the 7-8 min range. Just in time to deal with the terrans's delayed helion poke.
then you poke with them to see what the terran is doing while fully saturating that new base
Mass helion? this is mech, make more roaches for Defense while gettting a macro hatch.
get two evo's, (total), and get 1/1 then speed, then lair
(then do your personal style of build from here. Mutas, roach/bane, infestor, ect ect ect.
But what if, OH shit! I dont see a base!
so then get 4 queen and a spine. and drone up.
But now. OH SHIT THEY Just landed one, and they were gasless.
then get your third base at 40's, and do the same build as before.
Let me know if you want any replays. I will post some later on request. I have a few from today and yesterday.
EndO
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United States4883 Posts
On June 22 2012 21:59 MrLlama wrote:
high masters zerg
I'm not going to completely shut this idea down because I haven't done any real testing on this yet, but I will give my thoughts.
The reason TvZ is Different than PvZ is that terrans always have forces building. Protoss will leave you alone for 7-8 minutes for the most part and so taking that fast 3rd is easy for you since he had to invest in a forge first instead of a gateway first.
Terrans start off with barracks and factories and thus a fast 21supply 3rd would be no problem whatsoever to kill off. I don't think banshees would be the problem here as those can easily be defended, I just simply think they can walk over to your 3rd with a marine/X force at 6 minutes minutes and kill your 3rd. I've had it happen to me in many games where I have taken a later 3rd and had a roach ling army. Against terran you actually need to invest in units early on and those minerals that you are spending on that 3rd hatch suddenly becomes extra spines or queens that you could have had to defend some sort of push. It just seems too greedy to me.
That being said, I think it'd be interesting to think about taking a fast 3rd hatchery like that in your base as a macro hatch. But it still may be too greedy.
Note: I think if you just extend that 3rd hatch timing to a little beyond 21 supply, you'd be in a better position. Getting it before the queens is too much in my opinion though.
I agree. I play terran and generally start with a 1rax FE into 4rax with a marine timing around 7:00. Based on how zerg has to delay gas and rely on slowlings/queens for this attack, I've almost 100% of the time killed off or denied the 3rd from going down.
Therefore, I agree that this idea works wonderfully against a plethora of builds, but any player that opens with mass rax or some kind of all-in timing before 10:00 is going to stomp this opening.
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I will be intrested in seeing some replays EndOfLine, and SC2John, anything at 7 mins wouldnt be much of a problem as you can have a full saturated 3rd and 6 queens and speed/baneling nest done long before then off of 1 or 2 gas, but judgeing from the responce im getting from higher leagues im getting decressingly confident this is a end league viable BO the mindset seams too aggressive aggainst this build from the T point of View and would be reliant compleately on a indivuduals defence micro
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Top diamond/low masters here but currently about 80+ % winrate vs. the masters terrans I play often. (I will not give any advice vs. toss since it sucks me into diamond)
First off I think the concept of three hatches early vs. terran is a good one. The current opening game has shifted considerably in the past few months from consistent 2 rax and proxy rax and hellion openings to 1 rax FE. I have found (via roach/bling hits) that I also catch the terran with very greedy 3rd CC after their FE and it's protective bunker, assuming the zerg will be droning. If I smell this with an OL or lucky scout then I usually hit them in the face with roach/bling. My point being that the current metagame is that terran is getting hugely eco early on since zergs have learned to deal with the early game shenanigans and they were getting behind.
So _if_ they do hellions/2 rax, your build is dead period. Fortunately, those are less common now, so your opening is semi-viable.
The idea of hatch before queens is dubious. The main point of having hatcheries is to get minerals. You need drones to accomplish this. In the early game, drones are exponentially more significant (ie, recovery from a failed 6pool is WAY harder than a failed 8pool) and you are essentially sacrificing 7 early game drones for that hatch (300 mins + drone). Each drone mines 40 mins/minute so that's actually big hit early on. Eventually your graph will come back and cross, but no real game scenario will actually allow you to saturate all three such that you are mining more than you would have otherwise with 2 bases. In other words, you will have a hatch that is producing but has no drones mining because you are making zerglings to fend off his aggression. This is what happens when you get too greedy with early hatching.
I actually do play 3 early hatches currently in most terran matches and I'll describe the scenario; it is essentially what you are suggesting, but I can provide a bit more framework so people don't just die by doing it blindly.
If my natural gets up with no bunker aggression and their two marines are killing my gas steal in their base (I hate early banshees and this identifies a proxy 2 rax since they leave you alone) then I check to see if their natural is going down with my first overlord which is in waiting just for this. Most often we see; they usually do this on the low ground since their scout has identified my 15hatch/15pool and they know I'm going macro (your lings won't get there before the bunker unless they are super duper greedy). I only get two lings out, one for a forward scout and one for the farthest zelnaga.
When I see that second CC with my OL that I camp next to their natural gasses, I toss out my third hatch. It's safe. You can get creep to it in time for a banshee, you can get speedlings for hellions (although you gotta play smart because you can get overrun if you aren't ready) and you can still respond to a quick marine/tank pushout.
That's my take at least. I don't fully saturate it for a while, though, usually about 10-12 drones because if you don't start making a few units soon you can get hit hard.. nothing worse than 6 hellions frying your drones because you were way too greedy. I usually stick a spine or two down also because you can afford it and it always pays off, if not now then later for drop defense since the third is usually where they drop first.
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EPT
