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[D] Zerg Greedy 3rd ZvT - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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GRCJH
Profile Joined May 2012
Canada76 Posts
June 30 2012 20:18 GMT
#61
On June 25 2012 16:59 Asukurra wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 25 2012 08:16 GRCJH wrote:
Top 8 diamond terran here.

Any particular reason you're going for a 4 minute third?
Have you spent any time going for a more standard 6 or 7 minute third?

A meching terran will be able to take down that third with hellions alone. It's also vulnerable to bunker rushes off of 1 barracks. You'll be surprised at how aggressive a terran can be after their first rax is complete should you throw down a hatch that early.

Equally you'll be just as surprised at how easy it can be to defend a third when you take it at 6 - 7 minutes. You'll be able to transfer drones too rather than having to make drones to saturate both your natural and third at the same time.

There's nothing wrong with a little greed, but I detect a hint of novelty in a 4 minute third, it doesn't seem practical or safe.

EDIT: ahh I see the numbers, good for you for testing it all out! I stand by the novelty statement but who cares what I think, follow your heart... your gross zerg heart...


The 3rd gos down at 3:15 so by the 5 min mark its about to pop, and yea ive had alot of aggressive T try to punish this but vs high gold/ mid plat players they put themselves behind imo, too many have scouted it near finished and suddenly go full throttle attack (extra rax and all marine push) ect ect but by the time they can do a reaction attack the 6 queens can be up and at any time i can swap between drone and defence mode, teh amount of larva can simply overwhelm most pushs with slow lings alone and this isnt a you must stay on gas less, it allows fast tech (6 gas if you keep your 3rd) and roach warren +1 gas at any time will keep you alive if they over commit to Hellions, also with the increase of mins and drones you can be libral with the spine crawlers, they are helpful late game as well, if they pull back then you have a 3rd and can move the spines beind the min lines to help defend drops ect ect

not so much a novelty, just a greedy build that seams to get away with it more oftern then I would have thought, thats why I brought it up here


+ Show Spoiler +
I don't know why but going gasless until the 50 supply mark seems very risky even against a FE Terran. With 6 queens, it still seems like a decent amount of hellions would be able to outmaneuver the queens even on the creep. 2 queens/hatch isn't going to do much to defend 6-8 hellions constantly alternating between your nat/3rd frying drones.

That said, I've been trying to find a good timing to get a 3rd against T. Most of the time I just play it safe and build a macro hatch first since losing a 3rd to Ts first push is almost auto GG.


the build isnt designed to stay gas less until XXX time or XXX supply its a stay gas less until you feel under pressure then take all together to boom your tech, as for the 6-8 hellions, 4 queens sitting in 1 area (after spreading some creep hopefully) will buy enough time to get A)Roachs or B) spines the drone increase and min increase allows as such and I find this super early 3rd to be a better then thought time as no one expects it and people underestimate the amount of defence you can suddenly produce to hold off people 'knee jerk' attacking (going "what greedy bastard, better go kill him")




you WILL die to any kind of 2 rax, you know this, yes?
you were born too soon, you'll never explore the galaxy
Asukurra
Profile Joined June 2012
United Kingdom50 Posts
July 02 2012 12:13 GMT
#62
you WILL die to any kind of 2 rax, you know this, yes?



yes, thats why this is a Vs FE idea, not a 'go to' build order
Sapp
Profile Joined March 2011
Poland173 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-02 13:12:26
July 02 2012 13:10 GMT
#63
On June 29 2012 04:57 Asukurra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2012 04:29 6xFPCs wrote:
On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt.


I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this.


As have I, ill just clear up a few things, 1, I play Random not Zerg, i dont have much of a problem with ZvT or TvZ but doing build orders is enjoyable and i enjoy doing them, but what has annoyed me about your post isnt that you dont like it, i dont care if people like this, or me for that matter, its that you think only high masters/ gm's are allowed to try and tinker with making build orders, at no point am i trying to re write the meta, i use this in some of my zvt's and not in others, its not about the winning every game, its intresting seeing the can and cants of certain things, be it a build or trying to find 'new' ways of using units and its just fun to mess about, this is a game, games are for fun


ya, but being stupid for fun isn't funny for everyone.
And You are not expanding anything, your idea of a 3rd at 3.15 in ZvT is flat out stupid. You must be blind to post in this tread for so long. I talk about it before, but you didn't respond... like to anyone who made some kind of logic argument...
Quote? O.o?
Sircoolguy
Profile Joined May 2012
United States81 Posts
July 02 2012 13:44 GMT
#64
Plat terran here.

I say go for the build only if you can confirm that thety are going CC before factory. I go factory then CC into 2rax raduers with a fastish stim, reactor hellions, and eventually into MMMT. I typically don't have a problem denying a fast third unless they go 6 queen with roach opener, which is really strong becasue typically there aren't enough rauders to deal with roaches, queens, and spines early on, and then later with enough roaches you can defend your 3rd pretty easily.

The biggest issue with the really fast 3rd for zerg is defense so if you do the 6 queen build make sure you can get a few spines up at your 3rd fast or it can be torn down pretty fast. If they go CC before fact that give you a little more time before hellions arrive and the transition into either hellion banshee, hellion rauder will be a little easier defended on your part. The absolute worst thing that can happen if you pay attention is you cancel hatch. a macro hatch and make units. Those 6 queens are a pain to deal with due to transfuse so at least your natural is safe. My advice is to make sure that you control your queens well if you are playing greedy like that, becasue if you defend your 3rd with 4 of them it's not too hard for hellions and raduer to retreat and hit the natural and do as much damage there.
Garoodah
Profile Joined January 2012
United States56 Posts
July 02 2012 15:34 GMT
#65
This is definitely a viable option, but it depends if you scout gas or not. If you do, take an early macro hatch instead and play until your a bit better defended before grabbing your 3rd.
"Oh man we've got GG-lords"
Asukurra
Profile Joined June 2012
United Kingdom50 Posts
July 02 2012 16:51 GMT
#66
Sapp I coverd your mention of Creep being the only important thing in early game ect in one of my posts on the last page, and if you think its a stupid idea then you dont need to pay attention to this post, your input has been taken and creep is one of the things on the list im testing through, and again, ive never said im trying to expand anything.

Sircoolguy, thank you for the responces from Plat, ill add the MMMT to the list, ill check to see if it could be 'in time' to effect this one way or the other

Garoodah, I dont think this is a build that can be taken on the gas timings alone plenty of gasless things that appear to pose a problem in a Masters v Masters base
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
July 02 2012 17:02 GMT
#67
Why not just 3 hatch before pool against terrans?
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
July 02 2012 17:06 GMT
#68
Open third hatch before queens vs a 14 CC player. Open queens before third hatch vs a rax first player.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
July 02 2012 17:07 GMT
#69
On July 03 2012 02:02 amazingxkcd wrote:
Why not just 3 hatch before pool against terrans?


Because he will bunker rush you even with a CC first build.
HighLach
Profile Joined December 2011
United States132 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-02 19:05:46
July 02 2012 19:05 GMT
#70
I think if you scout CC first from terran, you can legitimately go 3 hatch before pool. I'm not sure if its efficient or effective.
Asukurra
Profile Joined June 2012
United Kingdom50 Posts
July 03 2012 12:10 GMT
#71
for the 3 base before pool, the answer is no, the time winthout queens is far too long and you will find yourself with too much money and not enough larvae to spend it on so no it is not effective or efficient
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20322 Posts
July 04 2012 01:13 GMT
#72
If you are 3basing, it is actuly better to go pool-hatch-hatch than to go hatch-hatch-pool, or hatch-pool-hatch in terms of both economy and production at most timings, IIRC. It is not really plausible vs terran though because you would have to commit to pool before scouting, so hatch first then pool, double queen then third is probably "best" for that
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
FT.aCt)Sony
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1048 Posts
July 04 2012 01:30 GMT
#73
I can give quite a few KR Masters replays ZvT where I've been doing double expand.

Been taking 15expo sending my drone to scout and make hatchery > cancel > evo chamber to deny their CC then I drop my pool and then take a 3rd. It's down around 3:30-4:00 roughly and have yet to have any issues keeping it up or defending it since I end up with 5 total queens + a spine crawler that is made at my natural and then moved to the 3rd.
Rhiot
Profile Joined May 2011
112 Posts
July 04 2012 01:42 GMT
#74
Seen Symbol do a very interesting style that I've been quite successful with! ^^

Here's what I got on it:

13 Drone Scout (take opponents gas if 1 rax expand)
15 Hatch
16 Pool
17 Ov
Use OV to scout Terran main's gas if 1 rax or cc first (don't know the possible outcomes for what terran is doing based on gas)
30 3rd+4th Queen
34 2 Overlords
use first two queens for creep
46 3rd
45 2 gas
45 Queen
49 Queen
51 3 Overlords
51 3rd gas
---100 gas Zspeed
OV sac at 7:00
----if see aggression 1 spine
---100 Gas Lair
---bane nest
4th gas 7:30
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