|
+ Show Spoiler +On June 27 2012 14:19 SadCheese wrote:
Top diamond/low masters here but currently about 80+ % winrate vs. the masters terrans I play often. (I will not give any advice vs. toss since it sucks me into diamond)
First off I think the concept of three hatches early vs. terran is a good one. The current opening game has shifted considerably in the past few months from consistent 2 rax and proxy rax and hellion openings to 1 rax FE. I have found (via roach/bling hits) that I also catch the terran with very greedy 3rd CC after their FE and it's protective bunker, assuming the zerg will be droning. If I smell this with an OL or lucky scout then I usually hit them in the face with roach/bling. My point being that the current metagame is that terran is getting hugely eco early on since zergs have learned to deal with the early game shenanigans and they were getting behind.
So _if_ they do hellions/2 rax, your build is dead period. Fortunately, those are less common now, so your opening is semi-viable.
The idea of hatch before queens is dubious. The main point of having hatcheries is to get minerals. You need drones to accomplish this. In the early game, drones are exponentially more significant (ie, recovery from a failed 6pool is WAY harder than a failed 8pool) and you are essentially sacrificing 7 early game drones for that hatch (300 mins + drone). Each drone mines 40 mins/minute so that's actually big hit early on. Eventually your graph will come back and cross, but no real game scenario will actually allow you to saturate all three such that you are mining more than you would have otherwise with 2 bases. In other words, you will have a hatch that is producing but has no drones mining because you are making zerglings to fend off his aggression. This is what happens when you get too greedy with early hatching.
I actually do play 3 early hatches currently in most terran matches and I'll describe the scenario; it is essentially what you are suggesting, but I can provide a bit more framework so people don't just die by doing it blindly.
If my natural gets up with no bunker aggression and their two marines are killing my gas steal in their base (I hate early banshees and this identifies a proxy 2 rax since they leave you alone) then I check to see if their natural is going down with my first overlord which is in waiting just for this. Most often we see; they usually do this on the low ground since their scout has identified my 15hatch/15pool and they know I'm going macro (your lings won't get there before the bunker unless they are super duper greedy). I only get two lings out, one for a forward scout and one for the farthest zelnaga.
When I see that second CC with my OL that I camp next to their natural gasses, I toss out my third hatch. It's safe. You can get creep to it in time for a banshee, you can get speedlings for hellions (although you gotta play smart because you can get overrun if you aren't ready) and you can still respond to a quick marine/tank pushout.
That's my take at least. I don't fully saturate it for a while, though, usually about 10-12 drones because if you don't start making a few units soon you can get hit hard.. nothing worse than 6 hellions frying your drones because you were way too greedy. I usually stick a spine or two down also because you can afford it and it always pays off, if not now then later for drop defense since the third is usually where they drop first.
Thank you for your input and might well be the saving grace of getting this worked out seeing as you do something close too, The framework for reactions you described is very handy and the sort of thing i want this build to maybe blossem into, a few points i need to bring up and hopefully you can answer
i love the addition to get a gas steal drone for early scouting of gas/ gassless, does waiting for 1/2 marines to kill the give you enough time to find out if it is a gassless expand? I.E will it delay his gas for long enough for him to 'need' it for whatever he needs it for
my other main question/ reason i first tried this, getting 3rd before queens isnt costing me 7 drones as i dont have enough larvae to spend to get the drones, the sheer greed of this build is 3rd at 3 15, no drone cutting ect, its the same as getting the first 2 queens, then your only working around 15s behind a 'normal' build but have the 3rd finished around 5mins, and even then they are only delayed by 15 seconds ish depending on how well im macroing that game, the reason i though hatch before queens is a few times (due to my poor multi tasking) ive been trying to micro something ect and havnt made anything and found ive been distracted enough to have 300 'spare' mins after using larvae for drones/lings [i]One addition i think i might have to do to make up for this creep shortcomeings that is a lot more important higher up is instead of going double inject for the first 2 queens that would give me plenty of larvae to 'spend' as i get the mins, do double creep to connect bases and get a good start on the creep spread, and then keep them up front for the '4 rine+ bunker' ideas people have mentioned and spend all the larvae as i get it but bank more mins for the delayed first double inject
ill have to do a full income analysis for the proposed ideas above and see when the graph will cross paths
ill test out
double inject
double creep
1 inject 1 creep (nat to 3rd proberly)
dam work getting in the way of important starcraft things T_T
|
i love the addition to get a gas steal drone for early scouting of gas/ gassless, does waiting for 1/2 marines to kill the give you enough time to find out if it is a gassless expand? I.E will it delay his gas for long enough for him to 'need' it for whatever he needs it for
This won't tell you if it is a gasless expand. It strongly suggests a 1 Rax expand but not definite. When your drone enters the base and you see no gas and only 1 barracks then there is either 1 Rax proxied somewhere or a CC coming. If you take a gas and it is attacked by one of the first marines then you will know that you aren't being bunker rushed and wont have to save larva for lings. That being said, nothing stops the Terran from killing the extractor, double gassing and going 2 port banshee (delayed but will still kill you if unscouted) anyways.
|
On June 27 2012 21:50 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +i love the addition to get a gas steal drone for early scouting of gas/ gassless, does waiting for 1/2 marines to kill the give you enough time to find out if it is a gassless expand? I.E will it delay his gas for long enough for him to 'need' it for whatever he needs it for This won't tell you if it is a gasless expand. It strongly suggests a 1 Rax expand but not definite. When your drone enters the base and you see no gas and only 1 barracks then there is either 1 Rax proxied somewhere or a CC coming. If you take a gas and it is attacked by one of the first marines then you will know that you aren't being bunker rushed and wont have to save larva for lings. That being said, nothing stops the Terran from killing the extractor, double gassing and going 2 port banshee (delayed but will still kill you if unscouted) anyways.
Thanks for your input on the T side of things (the suggest of 1 rax ect) ill be sure to add it to my list of timings i need to check against and who knows with tweaking from some masters to get a end league viable BO this could get intresting 
|
Only time you need a third this quick is vs CC before Rax.
Otherwise, there is literally NO POINT in taking it this fast because you wont gain anything from it... as opposed to just taking it at 5:00~7:00. You will, on the other hand, lose a drone and 300 minerals that could have been spent more wisely early on.
You can also take it as late as 10:00 and still be fine against terran. Lot of zergs have this style as well, and that also depends on the flow of the game and how aggressive the terran's build is.
Also, you lose the "scare factor" of a terran getting all inned by roach/baneling/ling etc. If they see you take a fast third without gas like that, they know they are safe to be greedy themselves.
|
On June 26 2012 17:01 Asukurra wrote:
I will be intrested in seeing some replays EndOfLine, and SC2John, anything at 7 mins wouldnt be much of a problem as you can have a full saturated 3rd and 6 queens and speed/baneling nest done long before then off of 1 or 2 gas, but judgeing from the responce im getting from higher leagues im getting decressingly confident this is a end league viable BO the mindset seams too aggressive aggainst this build from the T point of View and would be reliant compleately on a indivuduals defence micro
Sure. When I get back home from Work ill upload some ^_^
(however, I dont tend to get extra queens unless I have too)
|
Why is that even a thing?
3rd at 3.15 in zvt? why? there is like NO reason for it. In ZvP people sometimes wait to like ~5 and in zvp you are always perfectly safe. So why 3.15 in ZvT? It's not like you have no place to mine from, because you will never have fully saturated two bases at ~5 minute mark and even if you had that saturation and was in need of a 3rd, you can't have harvesters there because of the hellions that are in 90% of ZvTs ...
And it's not like you're getting some larva out of it because your queens are late. Later queens equal less creep, and creep it the most important factor of a gasless buid.. not drones, bases, income.. CREEP.
|
On June 26 2012 08:04 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 21:59 MrLlama wrote:
high masters zerg
I'm not going to completely shut this idea down because I haven't done any real testing on this yet, but I will give my thoughts.
The reason TvZ is Different than PvZ is that terrans always have forces building. Protoss will leave you alone for 7-8 minutes for the most part and so taking that fast 3rd is easy for you since he had to invest in a forge first instead of a gateway first.
Terrans start off with barracks and factories and thus a fast 21supply 3rd would be no problem whatsoever to kill off. I don't think banshees would be the problem here as those can easily be defended, I just simply think they can walk over to your 3rd with a marine/X force at 6 minutes minutes and kill your 3rd. I've had it happen to me in many games where I have taken a later 3rd and had a roach ling army. Against terran you actually need to invest in units early on and those minerals that you are spending on that 3rd hatch suddenly becomes extra spines or queens that you could have had to defend some sort of push. It just seems too greedy to me.
That being said, I think it'd be interesting to think about taking a fast 3rd hatchery like that in your base as a macro hatch. But it still may be too greedy.
Note: I think if you just extend that 3rd hatch timing to a little beyond 21 supply, you'd be in a better position. Getting it before the queens is too much in my opinion though. I agree. I play terran and generally start with a 1rax FE into 4rax with a marine timing around 7:00. Based on how zerg has to delay gas and rely on slowlings/queens for this attack, I've almost 100% of the time killed off or denied the 3rd from going down. Therefore, I agree that this idea works wonderfully against a plethora of builds, but any player that opens with mass rax or some kind of all-in timing before 10:00 is going to stomp this opening.
I still think that this build is an overly greedy risk no matter the FE from Terran, because Terrans scouting with hellions can reactively punish you, and any marine pressure will kill your third. It's not even a good risk, because you want 2 queens asap to push out larvae in case you need lings to defend, and in the case of most FEs, to drone up so that you're even with the double OC.
The only time I would drop a fast third hatch is, as was mentioned, as a macro hatch, and even then only
if I were to use it as part of a simcity to deny hellions, saving me a queen as well. This is mostly useful on maps like Ohana where creep spread past the ramp of the natural can be difficult against an active hellion player, so I figure I'd rather be fully safe from hellions and eschew creep spread for the moment (I still take the third using roaches) and drone hard, but this loses quite convincingly to a hellion-marine elevator. In fact, I think the elevator can be done reactively when he sees the macro hatch and scans a ton of drones, so if you try this, be more careful than I was, build some lings.
Under no circumstances would I get a third hatch before two queens and gas in ZvT, or before the second pair of queens if gasless. 90% of the time I want to drone up off those first two injects, too, and won't spend money on a third hatch before then, either. I can't say I see any real advantage to this build, sorry.
|
this is viable on some maps, on others aren't. Since the most common thing nowadays on T side is 1rax cc or even cc first, there is a lot to keep in mind following that. If the terran goes for 4 rax and decides to be aggressive, seeing ur hatch, maps like Shakuras will kill you. Well, no, but kill the 3rd. Because ur lings have no speed, to build 3 hatchs, you need quite a few drones, you wont have creepspread, so queens can't defend it. That is the main point, on maps, where there are different ramps and a bit of distance between 2nd and 3rd, you shouldn't do it. That applies even though we are assuming that you wont get 2rax'ed. You can scout double hellion oppening by watching their gas with ovie(150 gas mined) or they might go instant reactor even lately. and you shouldn't do it vs that aswell.
Other than that, if enemy goes for fast CC, your 3rd is not far away from ur natural, feel free to take it around 4+ minutes.
|
On June 28 2012 05:46 Sapp wrote:
Why is that even a thing?
3rd at 3.15 in zvt? why? there is like NO reason for it. In ZvP people sometimes wait to like ~5 and in zvp you are always perfectly safe. So why 3.15 in ZvT? It's not like you have no place to mine from, because you will never have fully saturated two bases at ~5 minute mark and even if you had that saturation and was in need of a 3rd, you can't have harvesters there because of the hellions that are in 90% of ZvTs ...
And it's not like you're getting some larva out of it because your queens are late. Later queens equal less creep, and creep it the most important factor of a gasless buid.. not drones, bases, income.. CREEP.
I know right.. It is not a thing, trust me. It is just a badly timed random build made by a guy who doesnt understand the game enough to realize that its just plain bad. He is asking for discussion, and input from master players, and he has gotten quite a bit already, but he is just the type of guy to ignore every negative feedback he gets as long as 1 in 5 can remotely resemble something positive. I dont think there is any use to give any more feedback here, and I dont really see any reason why this thread should even be open anymore.
|
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt.
|
On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt.
I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this.
|
On June 29 2012 04:29 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt. I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this.
As have I, ill just clear up a few things, 1, I play Random not Zerg, i dont have much of a problem with ZvT or TvZ but doing build orders is enjoyable and i enjoy doing them, but what has annoyed me about your post isnt that you dont like it, i dont care if people like this, or me for that matter, its that you think only high masters/ gm's are allowed to try and tinker with making build orders, at no point am i trying to re write the meta, i use this in some of my zvt's and not in others, its not about the winning every game, its intresting seeing the can and cants of certain things, be it a build or trying to find 'new' ways of using units and its just fun to mess about, this is a game, games are for fun
|
You will also die to reaper->expand.
|
I have been actually doing this in silver lately. I find its easy to perform and quite useful. I do have a tendency to skip the second creep queen for a spine crawler, but it is actually useful as you can traditionally out macro a terran player early on. If you dont let it get past the 20 minute mark before having a viable force then you can really pin them down and force a submission. It's a bit risky for fast terran players if you don't realize that they're going for early aggression or an all-in.
|
On June 29 2012 04:57 Asukurra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 04:29 6xFPCs wrote:On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt. I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this. As have I, ill just clear up a few things, 1, I play Random not Zerg, i dont have much of a problem with ZvT or TvZ but doing build orders is enjoyable and i enjoy doing them, but what has annoyed me about your post isnt that you dont like it, i dont care if people like this, or me for that matter, its that you think only high masters/ gm's are allowed to try and tinker with making build orders, at no point am i trying to re write the meta, i use this in some of my zvt's and not in others, its not about the winning every game, its intresting seeing the can and cants of certain things, be it a build or trying to find 'new' ways of using units and its just fun to mess about, this is a game, games are for fun
Hm. Perhaps you and I are operating on different assumptions about what a [D] thread on TL entails. I believe that the purpose of such thread is to subject an idea with some merit to the criticism of a serious community focused on competitive success. Hence the relentless criticism backed by reasonable concerns.
You can try all the fun builds you like, but don't continue to imply that you are going to be able to test and tweak until this build is worthy of TL Strategy attention. We are trying to communicate to the other zergs reading this thread that this is not a competitive build on par with current builds, which is what it seems like you are suggesting it could be, with your "testing" and attempts to debate our concerns. That is my biggest issue with your thread, that some poor plat or diamond zerg is going to think you've managed to address the problems that many of us have brought up, and he's going to go on ladder and lose.
If your build is happyfuntime screwing around because losing is ok, then be clear about it, and admit that the issues we've brought up prevent it from being a viable build.
|
On June 29 2012 06:25 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 04:57 Asukurra wrote:On June 29 2012 04:29 6xFPCs wrote:On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt. I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this. As have I, ill just clear up a few things, 1, I play Random not Zerg, i dont have much of a problem with ZvT or TvZ but doing build orders is enjoyable and i enjoy doing them, but what has annoyed me about your post isnt that you dont like it, i dont care if people like this, or me for that matter, its that you think only high masters/ gm's are allowed to try and tinker with making build orders, at no point am i trying to re write the meta, i use this in some of my zvt's and not in others, its not about the winning every game, its intresting seeing the can and cants of certain things, be it a build or trying to find 'new' ways of using units and its just fun to mess about, this is a game, games are for fun Hm. Perhaps you and I are operating on different assumptions about what a [D] thread on TL entails. I believe that the purpose of such thread is to subject an idea with some merit to the criticism of a serious community focused on competitive success. Hence the relentless criticism backed by reasonable concerns. You can try all the fun builds you like, but don't continue to imply that you are going to be able to test and tweak until this build is worthy of TL Strategy attention. We are trying to communicate to the other zergs reading this thread that this is not a competitive build on par with current builds, which is what it seems like you are suggesting it could be, with your "testing" and attempts to debate our concerns. That is my biggest issue with your thread, that some poor plat or diamond zerg is going to think you've managed to address the problems that many of us have brought up, and he's going to go on ladder and lose. If your build is happyfuntime screwing around because losing is ok, then be clear about it, and admit that the issues we've brought up prevent it from being a viable build.
Here are the guidelines for creating a [d] thread. As far as I can see, he is complying with all the requirements. There is no requirement that you need to be Master or Grandmaster to ask other players what they think about a strategy, and so far there has been good and well mannered discussion on the topic.
[D] Discussion Thread: Be clear about the topic and the feedback you are hoping for
Posting a [D] Thread:
This is the most open form of thread. Use a Discussion thread if you are not certain about some game mechanic and you want to get the feedback from other players. This can be about strategy and tactics, the role and viability of certain units, rock paper scissor counters, etc. The building blocks of what becomes sound SC2 strategy.
While the thread is less formal, please be clear and concise on the topic you want to discuss about, and open with your own opinion. Don’t make the topic too broad.
Make sure that the topic is worthy of discussion. If it can be definitively answered easily, it should probably be in a race specific help me thread. Use your own judgment for this.
This is the perfect way to post a strategy you came up with that is not quite ready to be turned into a guide (See below). Post your strategy and point out the areas where you are not sure about its validity and ask for feedback.
Feedback on [D] threads:
Be respectful and remember Rule No 1.
You wanted to generate discussion, so please don’t brush off suggestions you don’t agree with. Post your counter argument and back it up (Rule No 1). The same goes for people replying to such threads.
Threads like these are a welcome place for people less experienced to ask for opinions, make suggestions and engage in discussion.
It is fine that you don't think it is worthy of discussion, but there is no reason to be rude to the OP and dismiss everything he says because he is not master or grandmaster. If you no longer want to be a part of the discussion you can read a different post on the strategy forum.
|
On June 29 2012 08:51 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 06:25 6xFPCs wrote:On June 29 2012 04:57 Asukurra wrote:On June 29 2012 04:29 6xFPCs wrote:On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt. I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this. As have I, ill just clear up a few things, 1, I play Random not Zerg, i dont have much of a problem with ZvT or TvZ but doing build orders is enjoyable and i enjoy doing them, but what has annoyed me about your post isnt that you dont like it, i dont care if people like this, or me for that matter, its that you think only high masters/ gm's are allowed to try and tinker with making build orders, at no point am i trying to re write the meta, i use this in some of my zvt's and not in others, its not about the winning every game, its intresting seeing the can and cants of certain things, be it a build or trying to find 'new' ways of using units and its just fun to mess about, this is a game, games are for fun Hm. Perhaps you and I are operating on different assumptions about what a [D] thread on TL entails. I believe that the purpose of such thread is to subject an idea with some merit to the criticism of a serious community focused on competitive success. Hence the relentless criticism backed by reasonable concerns. You can try all the fun builds you like, but don't continue to imply that you are going to be able to test and tweak until this build is worthy of TL Strategy attention. We are trying to communicate to the other zergs reading this thread that this is not a competitive build on par with current builds, which is what it seems like you are suggesting it could be, with your "testing" and attempts to debate our concerns. That is my biggest issue with your thread, that some poor plat or diamond zerg is going to think you've managed to address the problems that many of us have brought up, and he's going to go on ladder and lose. If your build is happyfuntime screwing around because losing is ok, then be clear about it, and admit that the issues we've brought up prevent it from being a viable build. Here are the guidelines for creating a [d] thread. As far as I can see, he is complying with all the requirements. There is no requirement that you need to be Master or Grandmaster to ask other players what they think about a strategy, and so far there has been good and well mannered discussion on the topic. Show nested quote +[D] Discussion Thread: Be clear about the topic and the feedback you are hoping for
Posting a [D] Thread:
This is the most open form of thread. Use a Discussion thread if you are not certain about some game mechanic and you want to get the feedback from other players. This can be about strategy and tactics, the role and viability of certain units, rock paper scissor counters, etc. The building blocks of what becomes sound SC2 strategy.
While the thread is less formal, please be clear and concise on the topic you want to discuss about, and open with your own opinion. Don’t make the topic too broad.
Make sure that the topic is worthy of discussion. If it can be definitively answered easily, it should probably be in a race specific help me thread. Use your own judgment for this.
This is the perfect way to post a strategy you came up with that is not quite ready to be turned into a guide (See below). Post your strategy and point out the areas where you are not sure about its validity and ask for feedback.
Feedback on [D] threads:
Be respectful and remember Rule No 1.
You wanted to generate discussion, so please don’t brush off suggestions you don’t agree with. Post your counter argument and back it up (Rule No 1). The same goes for people replying to such threads.
Threads like these are a welcome place for people less experienced to ask for opinions, make suggestions and engage in discussion. It is fine that you don't think it is worthy of discussion, but there is no reason to be rude to the OP and dismiss everything he says because he is not master or grandmaster. If you no longer want to be a part of the discussion you can read a different post on the strategy forum.
Do not misread my posts. I reread the guidelines before making the last post, and I read those guidelines at least once a week because I know I have a harsh tone and I don't want to violate the rules.
I did not say that he needs to be master or GM to make a discussion thread. I said that his testing will not convince us because it is gold/plat, and we are talking about diamond+. However, OP seems to have deviated from that topic. Let me explain.
He originally asked to discuss the viability of the strategy at diamond+ levels. That is the topic of discussion. We did that. We haven't brushed off his suggestions, we've given valid criticism, which has not been answered to our satisfaction in the vein of the discussion topic. Instead, the OP is now pretending that we're gunning for him, and resorting saying that "this build just for fun"--but that's not the topic under discussion. I should start saying "I", though, because I don't want these other guys catching any flack intended for me.
I am not dismissing what he says. I am simply telling him that coming back with a slew of gold/plat level testing isn't going to contribute to a discussion about the viability of a build at DIAMOND OR HIGHER. I wanted to make sure that he wasn't doing this just to try and convince anyone that this works at diamond or masters by using gold/plat replays as proof. Perhaps I was wrong to say high masters or GM, but that is the caliber of player that I would want to test a build before I trust in it.
I do not feel that I am being rude, I think I am being decisively on topic. I will not soften my words because I don't want anyone out there getting confused about this; if I were to coddle OP and say "oh hey great idea, but I think there's some cause for concern X, also maybe Y", then some lurker out there is going think "hey it's a great idea" and get a 4min third hatch in ZvT and lose for it.
Don't do it, unknown lurker. Don't do it. I'm here for you.
|
So Im doing a greedy opener to get similar economy or not even ahead at all to the zerg. But he clears me out with the roach/bane/ling allin that i CANNOT hold. Bashing my head on the keyboard.
|
Make 4-6 queens, add in a spine.
Strategy doesn't really matter after that. If you're having trouble add in more spines or actually make units instead of drones. Keep up with upgrades and there isn't a way you can lose TBH.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On June 29 2012 15:30 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 08:51 MstrJinbo wrote:On June 29 2012 06:25 6xFPCs wrote:On June 29 2012 04:57 Asukurra wrote:On June 29 2012 04:29 6xFPCs wrote:On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt. I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this. As have I, ill just clear up a few things, 1, I play Random not Zerg, i dont have much of a problem with ZvT or TvZ but doing build orders is enjoyable and i enjoy doing them, but what has annoyed me about your post isnt that you dont like it, i dont care if people like this, or me for that matter, its that you think only high masters/ gm's are allowed to try and tinker with making build orders, at no point am i trying to re write the meta, i use this in some of my zvt's and not in others, its not about the winning every game, its intresting seeing the can and cants of certain things, be it a build or trying to find 'new' ways of using units and its just fun to mess about, this is a game, games are for fun Hm. Perhaps you and I are operating on different assumptions about what a [D] thread on TL entails. I believe that the purpose of such thread is to subject an idea with some merit to the criticism of a serious community focused on competitive success. Hence the relentless criticism backed by reasonable concerns. You can try all the fun builds you like, but don't continue to imply that you are going to be able to test and tweak until this build is worthy of TL Strategy attention. We are trying to communicate to the other zergs reading this thread that this is not a competitive build on par with current builds, which is what it seems like you are suggesting it could be, with your "testing" and attempts to debate our concerns. That is my biggest issue with your thread, that some poor plat or diamond zerg is going to think you've managed to address the problems that many of us have brought up, and he's going to go on ladder and lose. If your build is happyfuntime screwing around because losing is ok, then be clear about it, and admit that the issues we've brought up prevent it from being a viable build. Here are the guidelines for creating a [d] thread. As far as I can see, he is complying with all the requirements. There is no requirement that you need to be Master or Grandmaster to ask other players what they think about a strategy, and so far there has been good and well mannered discussion on the topic. [D] Discussion Thread: Be clear about the topic and the feedback you are hoping for
Posting a [D] Thread:
This is the most open form of thread. Use a Discussion thread if you are not certain about some game mechanic and you want to get the feedback from other players. This can be about strategy and tactics, the role and viability of certain units, rock paper scissor counters, etc. The building blocks of what becomes sound SC2 strategy.
While the thread is less formal, please be clear and concise on the topic you want to discuss about, and open with your own opinion. Don’t make the topic too broad.
Make sure that the topic is worthy of discussion. If it can be definitively answered easily, it should probably be in a race specific help me thread. Use your own judgment for this.
This is the perfect way to post a strategy you came up with that is not quite ready to be turned into a guide (See below). Post your strategy and point out the areas where you are not sure about its validity and ask for feedback.
Feedback on [D] threads:
Be respectful and remember Rule No 1.
You wanted to generate discussion, so please don’t brush off suggestions you don’t agree with. Post your counter argument and back it up (Rule No 1). The same goes for people replying to such threads.
Threads like these are a welcome place for people less experienced to ask for opinions, make suggestions and engage in discussion. It is fine that you don't think it is worthy of discussion, but there is no reason to be rude to the OP and dismiss everything he says because he is not master or grandmaster. If you no longer want to be a part of the discussion you can read a different post on the strategy forum. Do not misread my posts. I reread the guidelines before making the last post, and I read those guidelines at least once a week because I know I have a harsh tone and I don't want to violate the rules. I did not say that he needs to be master or GM to make a discussion thread. I said that his testing will not convince us because it is gold/plat, and we are talking about diamond+. However, OP seems to have deviated from that topic. Let me explain. He originally asked to discuss the viability of the strategy at diamond+ levels. That is the topic of discussion. We did that. We haven't brushed off his suggestions, we've given valid criticism, which has not been answered to our satisfaction in the vein of the discussion topic. Instead, the OP is now pretending that we're gunning for him, and resorting saying that "this build just for fun"--but that's not the topic under discussion. I should start saying "I", though, because I don't want these other guys catching any flack intended for me. I am not dismissing what he says. I am simply telling him that coming back with a slew of gold/plat level testing isn't going to contribute to a discussion about the viability of a build at DIAMOND OR HIGHER. I wanted to make sure that he wasn't doing this just to try and convince anyone that this works at diamond or masters by using gold/plat replays as proof. Perhaps I was wrong to say high masters or GM, but that is the caliber of player that I would want to test a build before I trust in it. I do not feel that I am being rude, I think I am being decisively on topic. I will not soften my words because I don't want anyone out there getting confused about this; if I were to coddle OP and say "oh hey great idea, but I think there's some cause for concern X, also maybe Y", then some lurker out there is going think "hey it's a great idea" and get a 4min third hatch in ZvT and lose for it. Don't do it, unknown lurker. Don't do it. I'm here for you.
I dont feel that you are gunning at me, and i have addressed all the crit comeing to the build, at no point was i expecting everyone to go, i love it lets use it, also its a [d] thread not a [g], im not expecting anyone to try and take this and use it on the ladder in the current state, thats why ive repeated myself a lot saying its a work in progress. Secondly the reason i havnt put any replays on for this is simple, the testing im doing into the build isnt vs other players yet for the reason you said, im only gold/plat so all the testing im doing is to do with drone count, larvae, creep distace over time queen count and timings, the time to sat each base and the most efficient way I can use the 3 bases if held ect ect, min income, the defensive timings related to T aggression ect ect and all that jazz and if it matters to you i have 2 master Zergs helping me with all the testing things. And i think you misunderstood what i meant when i said it for fun, its what i do for fun, not the build order, trying to make the BO as viable as it can be and i mess about with the timings in my own ladder games, trying to see random factors and odd 'off' builds that might give me ideas/ show up problems.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
