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Hello All
I have a question, half discussion ect, Ive been working on a fast 3rd vs T, similer to the current ZvP meta, using lings/Queens for early game defence, the basic idea
15Hatch
15pool
16Ovi
1x Lings (scouting/ Tower)
21 Hatch (3rd)
2xQueen for Injects
<Drones while Queens build
3xQueens (1 for the 3rd and 2 from your hatchs for creep)
Then the style is up to you, 1gas just for speed and bane nest if needed/ wanted, or double gas at main for upgrades, or can make 4 for a early Lair for Muta or festors and so on ect ect the use of the 3rd is discussed a little bit below
The reasoning
First off im Only Gold getting into Plat level so this is a asking if it sounds viable in about Dia+
Ive been talking to a few T at Masters and a few Z i know at Masters and one thing that always seemed to pop up is CC before Factory, if they bother to do it any more for Hellions, into whatever strat they do for vZ, but they all say they only really push out ect at around 10 mins with marine tank or later (13-15) with Bio Mech for a poke and maybe kill off some army or take the 3rd for them, and the Z have been saying that T are getting Laxed with using the Hellions for scouting as the Queen buff and either dont bother with them or sac'ing them to get a few drones kills as the Z dont prepair properly anymore (Q buff)
This is a very rough build atm so im looking for feedback on how likely we can be this
greedy
The Idea
Bit greedy but helpful for greedy T's!
Fast 3rd base for Larva and Eco, and all that 3rd base goodness
Current working ideas
Use it to speed Droneing to do a similer max out to the ZvP
Use it as a macro match for extra army if attacking/ defending
Use it as a Sac to delay a T all in/ get ready for that Cloak banshee you didnt see coming
Extra Gas for super fast Tech/ greater number of Tech units
Best case is they dont look early enough and you are ahead with a full working base before they think to expand
In gold at least, i have the 'spare' 300 mins as having no Larvee for drones and as no gas is taken early for min increase
Defence
The idea behind defense is using lings on creep with Queens to repel early marine pushs and Hellions, and ofc Queens for Banshee, Tanks should come after speed and if they decide to kill of the 3rd gives you a long amount of time get more army/ position/ speed to finish
going 5 queen is a bit pushy but useful if you think they are 2 base timing, lay down 4-6 creeps and leave the 3+4th queen to gather energy for transfuse and then you have 2Q injecting and 3Q for defense with Lings and Spines if you feel SUPER put out
Please Discuss ^^, im happy with any crit, good or bad, im a big boy!
Some Questions from the origional postings and answers
"Just wondering what you would do versus 2 port banshees. No evo chamber and no lair so if he/she masses 4-6 banshees it would be an insta loss. you can relly on scouting and an emergency ev chamber but that only works on paper not in the real game. Eager to here your thoughts! -Alex"
Going on the 6:20 timing for banshee at that point understanding that the T would have turtled and have no army to push/ poke with leaves you to macro in peace, at that time you can be at 3 bases finished 4 Queens and 1 @75% <at 3rd if you build there, will have 1 queen at each base if move the 3rd/4th Q to there> allows tripple inject and 2 queens to Tumars/ transfuse my Bad macro leaves my with 36 drones on 2 bases 3rd current has none, 8 larvee and 215 mins to spend with 46/54 supply
so there is room there for a Evo long before they turn up, and seeing as Spores are min only to build then you can stay gasless if you like, and having 3 base up and working by 6 20 and being able to defend you can then go full throttle into production mode and roll them as they will have stayed on 1 base to do the 2 port.
"- make sure he is not all ining you on one base before doing that kind of things! (a marauder /helion push would be devastating for instance, although it isn't common for sure, or some 4 rax marine early push). But can you make sure he is not all ining before you actually take your third, or are you just praying that he will play standard? even if he is not all-ining you, what if he brings like a couple of marines and deny your drone going to your third, or even block your third with some building? true, you have queens, but it'll take some time before you actually get there with them."
Your 3rd gos down for 4mins ideal, could hit earlyier if you like (3:45 with good drone movement timings) dependent on Map, so you have until 4 mins to decide if they are proxying/ 4 raxing, will have a pair of scouting lings and the chance of them randomly deciding to think to block a 3rd is unlikely in the Meta and anything after 7 mins isnt worrying as you can then go production mode (6 mins for 3rd to finish and a full round of drones if you feel super safe) and then start the tripple inject army production and will match the army size very quickly and have huge advantage with defenders advantage, depending on what you see with the scouting lings you can take gas and roach warren ect ect at around 6mins and be fine and have plenty of mins/ drones to make spines if some odd timing appears
- is it actually worth it ? just have a look at the moment where your hatch pops out: can you send drones there to exploit it or not? the risk being that you take 300 minerals away from drone production in very early game. I feel that a slightly later hatch would be as useful... ( you may tell me that you can do it vs protoss, but here I am afraid the comparison is a bit misleading, as terrans can be more aggressive early than FFE toss).
Also, what would be your gas timings?
I think it is worth it, its a win/win/win situation i think, i know losing 300 mins from drones may seem like alot but either
A) It finishs and can be 'Hidden' and can be abused with them not knowing to look for it early,
B) It finishs and they scout it and cant suddenly punish it at 6 mins letting you get away with greed, they should have made a Tech choice by then
C) they find it and spend time to kill it, any pre 6 mins push i can think of (from T) will take ages to kill it off, and if pre 6 mins then you can cancel it and lose 125 mins (includeing 50 for the Drone) giving you the time to make spines or emergency lings
Drone and larvee
At 6 20 36 drones on 2 bases 3rd current has none, 8 larvee and 215 mins to spend with 46/54 supply
so if all is quiet then you can do a transfer drones for when it finish's or spend your larvee on Drones for it
As for the speed of the 3rd, the reason im tinkering with the fastest time i can get it is for a few reasons
A) If Rax expand then you have stupidly fast 3rd
B) If they push early then it has some HP to 'Tank' before cancel ect
C) Too early for T to send marine to kill drone before taking it and one worker cant prevent both, standard drone defence for bunker rush
I think I have outlined the last point 'the T being aggressive' with the reasons above and at anytime before 6 mins you can cancel the hatch and its a normal 15 hatch expand with 4 Queens
Gas timings
The reason this gets its own section is because this is the only thing in my build i dont like to set in stone as it was, i prefer Gasless as long as i can, if i can get away with 8 mins no gas then i would love it ^^ then take 6 at the same time and BOOM tech and +1/+1 for 10 mins and any tech of your choice right off the bat, but if you scout and you know its going to <strat A,B, or C> and will need <responce A.B, or C> then throw down gas and baneling/ roach ect as soon as you know, i also dont think you need Ling Speed super quick for this match up currently, Hellions kite speedlings pretty well allready if they paying attention and micro and 5Q slowlings on creep <3,4th queen dedicated to creep spread> with spines can hold any pre 7 push the reason i mention 7 as the default before/ after time is because after 7 you will have 3 full sat base and lots of creep and queens ect can throw down 6 gas and double Evo and lair and speed and all that good jazz
Again, any questions, feel free to post and ill reply ^_^ Replays of my Gold Ladder will be added when i get in from Work to put them on
Asu
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progamers have been doing that for ages i think nestea came up with 5minute 3rd now its the standard, whne i dont see it on ladder/progames it throws me off. yes it works at highest level ppl have done it and refined it, so id advice u to copy them and learn from it. vs 1rax fe btw
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There Are a lot of really good pro zergs using a 6 queen opening. IdrA has been using it a lot on his stream recently. You should check those VODs out. It sets up a insanely good midgame.
Basic structure is
1. Economical hatch first (15h 16p no gas)
2. Build queens 2 at a time until 6
3. Take third by 5 min mark
4. Double gas at around 50-55 supply
5. Baneling nest, macro hatch and evo chambers
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The diffrence between this one and the two that you 2 have mentioned is this hatch finishs at 5 45, not started at that time, still sets up the 6 queen defence and all that good jazz, i have seen some vods of Idra doing his 5 min hatch, the point of this one is a stupidly early/ greedy 3rd, started at 3 45 then haveing tripple inject to catch up to get 3 full sat bases very very fast, this isnt so much a 6 queen based strat it just allows you to do it if you want, it was more deisnged for 13 min hive while staying safe doing so
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high masters zerg
I'm not going to completely shut this idea down because I haven't done any real testing on this yet, but I will give my thoughts.
The reason TvZ is Different than PvZ is that terrans always have forces building. Protoss will leave you alone for 7-8 minutes for the most part and so taking that fast 3rd is easy for you since he had to invest in a forge first instead of a gateway first.
Terrans start off with barracks and factories and thus a fast 21supply 3rd would be no problem whatsoever to kill off. I don't think banshees would be the problem here as those can easily be defended, I just simply think they can walk over to your 3rd with a marine/X force at 6 minutes minutes and kill your 3rd. I've had it happen to me in many games where I have taken a later 3rd and had a roach ling army. Against terran you actually need to invest in units early on and those minerals that you are spending on that 3rd hatch suddenly becomes extra spines or queens that you could have had to defend some sort of push. It just seems too greedy to me.
That being said, I think it'd be interesting to think about taking a fast 3rd hatchery like that in your base as a macro hatch. But it still may be too greedy.
Note: I think if you just extend that 3rd hatch timing to a little beyond 21 supply, you'd be in a better position. Getting it before the queens is too much in my opinion though.
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On June 22 2012 21:55 MstrJinbo wrote:
There Are a lot of really good pro zergs using a 6 queen opening. IdrA has been using it a lot on his stream recently. You should check those VODs out. It sets up a insanely good midgame.
Basic structure is
1. Economical hatch first (15h 16p no gas)
2. Build queens 2 at a time until 6
3. Take third by 5 min mark
4. Double gas at around 50-55 supply
5. Baneling nest, macro hatch and evo chambers
The reason it's so insanely good is unless your opponent puts on a ton of pressure early you will never have to make more than 2 lings until infestors/mutas and 2-2 (unless he does some kind of timing push, which you can crush if you see it and make lings in time).
Queens cost 0 larva so you can drone to the max. It's actually kind of silly.
I think the queen range helps alot but I think this build was amazing before that and people just didn't realize it. I think with range 3 queens I would still be doing this build.
In my games so far I've been going 4 queens into 3 gasses and a 3rd base at 6 minutes. It seems to flow nicely, maybe I'll go play around with 6 queens though, but a bit faster ling speed/upgrades seems nicer.
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Sounds a bit too greedy , even after the Queen buff. Xd
In the "nomal" metagame you build your 3rd after your first two Queens are at least half way done and then you build 2 more queens and in some builds even 2 more.
I developped my build around getting the erlyest 3rd base posssible.
My goal is to have 6 queens and be save against absolutly everything.I am going for a 15 hatch w/out gas. I use the first two queens to spread creep and be safe against everything cheesy. Then i build my third and 2 additional Queens which i use for creep spread.
when they finish I build two gases and 2 additional queens so i have 3 queens for creepspread.
With the gas I first build zergling speed, then a bainlingnest and in the end a lair which also triggers me to build 4 more gases.
At this point you are save agaist everything.
Your build seems to be some kind of "Metagame abuse" because noone plays reaktor hellion or 2 rax anymore.
I think you would loose to them immidietly. Xd
Hope it was helpful Xd
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Yah, ~5 minute 3rd are actually really safe vs. Terran FE builds. Just get out 4-6 queens with some speedlings, and you can basically defend ANYTHING the terran can throw at you for the first 7 or so minutes of the game.
Speedlings and ~6 queens on creep with transfusion gives me nightmares.
I'm serious about the last statement X_X
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But even IF he does take out the third... if you realize it early enough (or even halflate), you pull drones from the third and have lost what... 350 minerals? Now you have a 1500 HP decoy at your third and lots of time building units, where you COULD have lost your natural to a really aggressive push.
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Fast 3rd is good but I dont think you can ever get away with gasless til the 8 minute mark against a half decent Terran.
I go 5:30-6:30 3rd standard if I dont see some sort of 1 base play, and so far the way I do it has been super safe. I watch alot of TLO so I have copied a style he has been doing, and tweaked it to my liking.
14 dronescout (rally the 13th drone to go scout, primarily for 2 rax proxy, if you are lucky you can get a look if it is rax gas opening and you might even see the expo go down if its 1 rax FE)
15h
16p
17 ol
2x queens (inject with both, then use for creepspread)
26 ol
28 ol
2x queens (injection queens)
30+ ish overlord sac (sometimes I dont do this if my initial drone scout or lings spot everything I need to see, or if the map spawns dont allow it)
6 mins I take 2 gas and make a roach warren. If I see or suspect some sort of 1-1-1 expand (rax, gas, fac, cc, starport or something in that order(this is really really rare atm, and I feel its pretty allin)) i make 1 evo at the same time (6 mins)cause T can have banshee with cloak done at 7:10 ish.
If its just standard 1 rax cc opening and I play totally blind I make 1 evo at 7, cause if they do the 1-1-1 cloak banshee build of that opening it hits at 8 with cloak. Then Ill add the second evo at 8 and start +1+1.
This is just the standard outline if I dont get a good scout of. I sometimes tweak the timings quite a bit depending on what Im up against. The roach warren makes it super safe against 6+ hellions or early marine pressures (cause you wont have lingspeed in time for that), and with proper evo timings you are safe against any banshee play.
Sometimes I skip the roach warren blind and go 2 extra queens but that is a bit of a risk if you are playing blind.
If you dont have to make any roaches gas goes into lingspeed, +1+1, lair in that order.
1k master Z with 87% winrate ZvT last season (I used to main T so this mu is by far my strongest, the other two is both around 50) doing only this opening, so as far as I know this fast 3rd opening variant is super safe.
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Speedlings and ~6 queens on creep with transfusion gives me nightmares.
I'm serious about the last statement X_X
I got visions about how transfusing speedlings will become the next big thing
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I haven't been studying pros do it, but I've always taken a fast third in ZvT, and sometimes even a fast fourth in Daybreak if he does fast 3OC and gets hit by my ling flank. When I do a fast 3 base I tend to go 5 queen opener, then add on a macro hatch + 1 creepspread queen. I tend to follow it up with late infestors but fast 2-2, and do baneling drops on his third (that is amazing btw) as I try to transition into infestor. Very risky. Weak against banshee play, and really heavy 2 base non marine tank timing pushes (bio, bio+thor, mech, etc.) and is kinda hard to transition out of vs mech because you get +1 melee fast.
EDIT: Weak vs banshees because cloak forces either gas in overseers or mineral income in spores (you'll need 1 per base if you're not making any overseers) and the build is very greedy already and can't really spend resources to beat cloak banshees. You need to be able to kill it cost effectively while hitting all your injects almost perfectly, so there's no room for queen transfers around bases - which is why I say "very risky". You try to do everything at once.
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On June 22 2012 23:01 MAAeThErOs wrote:
I haven't been studying pros do it, but I've always taken a fast third in ZvT, and sometimes even a fast fourth in Daybreak if he does fast 3OC and gets hit by my ling flank. When I do a fast 3 base I tend to go 5 queen opener, then add on a macro hatch + 1 creepspread queen. I tend to follow it up with late infestors but fast 2-2, and do baneling drops on his third (that is amazing btw) as I try to transition into infestor. Very risky. Weak against banshee play, and really heavy 2 base non marine tank timing pushes (bio, bio+thor, mech, etc.) and is kinda hard to transition out of vs mech because you get +1 melee fast.
How is a 5 queen opening weak against banshees? Nothing about that build should theoretically be bad against banshee. Evo chambers should come relatively early for upgrades and the queens should be ample antiair. As long ad you are scouting and reacting well you should have roaches fast enough to deal with mech pushes too.
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On June 22 2012 22:47 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +Speedlings and ~6 queens on creep with transfusion gives me nightmares.
I'm serious about the last statement X_X I got visions about how transfusing speedlings will become the next big thing
Invincible zerglings sounds pretty scary to me.
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@OP
Too greedy m8. You will die to 16 stimless marines, or 4hellions will just burn all your workers because you have no queens to block them yet. First queen at 21 is too late.
You will also die to reaper->expand.
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Hi platinum terran here. I've been seeing this type of fast third a lot lately and frankly i think it's really easy to kill. I'm sure if you are really good at defending it can be a problem but in the 5 or so games ive played against it i've pretty mch been able to waltz in with some MMM and kill the third. However, if you snipe medivacs and transfuse a big ball of queens can be really hard to kill. Just my experiences but im no high level player or anything.
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2 queens before third is always better if you have the second hatch to inject. People take their third before 2nd queen (generally, I don't, but thats for creep spread not larvae) because they want to set up the infrastructure to make lots of drones and have 3 bases. 2 queen + 2 hatch > no queen 3 hatch. Just wait a bit to get your third, as other people said, around the 5 minute mark.
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Sorry for the huge delay in my replying I have been away from my computer for a few days, and the general idea im getting is that this is only working for me because the league im in and wont work as well/ at all when I get higher leagues?
thank you for the input  if anyone is still interested in the replays I can upload some or do a Vs AI one to show just the build ignoreing what the other players might be doing
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I am totally no expert in this game, but it appears that some people here must be wrong  Considering that the masters players say it's a breeze to defend a really fast third, yet everyone else is saying that they could kill it with the units that they would have. Again, I'm no expert, but you shouldn't have medivacs at 6:00, assuming you expanded. And also, it's only 40 seconds after the third hatch finishes until their production will exceed anything you have, and if you don't pressure then zerg can make drones and win.
I shall definitely try this style today! It seems like a nice alternative to the early roach agression -> third.
Thanks for the writeup! ^_^
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You are more then welcome Mawie, and ill do some number crunching and get some times down for drones/ larvee ect for 3rd after the first 2 queens and the 3rd before and see at what point the 3rd base larvee 'kicks in' vs the 5 min 3rd and then the timings for T push's to compare
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On June 25 2012 05:55 Mavvie wrote:I am totally no expert in this game, but it appears that some people here must be wrong Considering that the masters players say it's a breeze to defend a really fast third, yet everyone else is saying that they could kill it with the units that they would have. Again, I'm no expert, but you shouldn't have medivacs at 6:00, assuming you expanded. And also, it's only 40 seconds after the third hatch finishes until their production will exceed anything you have, and if you don't pressure then zerg can make drones and win. I shall definitely try this style today! It seems like a nice alternative to the early roach agression -> third. Thanks for the writeup! ^_^
The point is that if you throw your third down earlier than 6 minutes, and the terran just went with 4 naked rax after cc and moves to your third, you have to make lings or sack the third.
If you make lings the third does nothing for you, if you sack the third the third does nothing for you.
I realize this is called a greedy third but there is no reason, with the current state of ZvT, to be this greedy.
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I need to say this is mainly vs a FE T, not a go to build for any situation, but that being said here are the numbers from doing tests without outside player input, ie being left alone for the first 7 mins, this was to gauge the potential of this build not to show its viability
3rd before queens
5:00 game time
105 mins, 24 drones 3 larvae
2Queens
7:30 game time
760 mins 59 drones 11 larvae
3Queens
3rd at 5mins
5:00 game time
135 mins, 21 drones, 2 larvae
7:30 game time
435 mins, 55 drones, 0 larvae
both games played with 1 set of lings being made when pool pop'ed and was both played using 10ovi 15h 16p and queens up to the amount of hatchs and wasnt supply blocked in either game.
with a decent player trying this I think it might be doable for a ladder game or 2, as you can see in the 7:30 of game 1 i have more larvae then I can get rid and plenty of mins for 3 queens and gas/evos ect ect
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Top 8 diamond terran here.
Any particular reason you're going for a 4 minute third?
Have you spent any time going for a more standard 6 or 7 minute third?
A meching terran will be able to take down that third with hellions alone. It's also vulnerable to bunker rushes off of 1 barracks. You'll be surprised at how aggressive a terran can be after their first rax is complete should you throw down a hatch that early.
Equally you'll be just as surprised at how easy it can be to defend a third when you take it at 6 - 7 minutes. You'll be able to transfer drones too rather than having to make drones to saturate both your natural and third at the same time.
There's nothing wrong with a little greed, but I detect a hint of novelty in a 4 minute third, it doesn't seem practical or safe.
EDIT: ahh I see the numbers, good for you for testing it all out! I stand by the novelty statement but who cares what I think, follow your heart... your gross zerg heart...
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I tried this build, and managed to survive a 3rax semi-all-in, losing only 3 queens and ALMOST losing my hatch :D i felt like SUCH a troll when my hatchery survived with so little health. But anyways, despite not following your exact BO, i DID manage to survive the game, and had SUCH a macro advantage that the rest of the game was mine
Here's the rep:
http://drop.sc/204770
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Please for god sake, some master+ zerg PM me with a good good build vs zerg as terran. Im so lost in the matchup that im actually considering crying myself to Protoss. its fucking terrible right now
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I don't know why but going gasless until the 50 supply mark seems very risky even against a FE Terran. With 6 queens, it still seems like a decent amount of hellions would be able to outmaneuver the queens even on the creep. 2 queens/hatch isn't going to do much to defend 6-8 hellions constantly alternating between your nat/3rd frying drones.
That said, I've been trying to find a good timing to get a 3rd against T. Most of the time I just play it safe and build a macro hatch first since losing a 3rd to Ts first push is almost auto GG.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 25 2012 08:16 GRCJH wrote:Top 8 diamond terran here. Any particular reason you're going for a 4 minute third? Have you spent any time going for a more standard 6 or 7 minute third? A meching terran will be able to take down that third with hellions alone. It's also vulnerable to bunker rushes off of 1 barracks. You'll be surprised at how aggressive a terran can be after their first rax is complete should you throw down a hatch that early. Equally you'll be just as surprised at how easy it can be to defend a third when you take it at 6 - 7 minutes. You'll be able to transfer drones too rather than having to make drones to saturate both your natural and third at the same time. There's nothing wrong with a little greed, but I detect a hint of novelty in a 4 minute third, it doesn't seem practical or safe. EDIT: ahh I see the numbers, good for you for testing it all out! I stand by the novelty statement but who cares what I think, follow your heart... your gross zerg heart...
The 3rd gos down at 3:15 so by the 5 min mark its about to pop, and yea ive had alot of aggressive T try to punish this but vs high gold/ mid plat players they put themselves behind imo, too many have scouted it near finished and suddenly go full throttle attack (extra rax and all marine push) ect ect but by the time they can do a reaction attack the 6 queens can be up and at any time i can swap between drone and defence mode, teh amount of larva can simply overwhelm most pushs with slow lings alone and this isnt a you must stay on gas less, it allows fast tech (6 gas if you keep your 3rd) and roach warren +1 gas at any time will keep you alive if they over commit to Hellions, also with the increase of mins and drones you can be libral with the spine crawlers, they are helpful late game as well, if they pull back then you have a 3rd and can move the spines beind the min lines to help defend drops ect ect
not so much a novelty, just a greedy build that seams to get away with it more oftern then I would have thought, thats why I brought it up here
+ Show Spoiler +I don't know why but going gasless until the 50 supply mark seems very risky even against a FE Terran. With 6 queens, it still seems like a decent amount of hellions would be able to outmaneuver the queens even on the creep. 2 queens/hatch isn't going to do much to defend 6-8 hellions constantly alternating between your nat/3rd frying drones.
That said, I've been trying to find a good timing to get a 3rd against T. Most of the time I just play it safe and build a macro hatch first since losing a 3rd to Ts first push is almost auto GG.
the build isnt designed to stay gas less until XXX time or XXX supply its a stay gas less until you feel under pressure then take all together to boom your tech, as for the 6-8 hellions, 4 queens sitting in 1 area (after spreading some creep hopefully) will buy enough time to get A)Roachs or B) spines the drone increase and min increase allows as such and I find this super early 3rd to be a better then thought time as no one expects it and people underestimate the amount of defence you can suddenly produce to hold off people 'knee jerk' attacking (going "what greedy bastard, better go kill him")
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I want to have a discussion here but every time anyone says anything they say: "DISCLAIMER: This works on my level but probably not at masters"
Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose? I imagine you all want to improve, so do a build that lets you get there.
On June 25 2012 10:55 Mindflow wrote:
Please for god sake, some master+ zerg PM me with a good good build vs zerg as terran. Im so lost in the matchup that im actually considering crying myself to Protoss. its fucking terrible right now
Wrong thread?
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On June 25 2012 17:09 Clarity_nl wrote:I want to have a discussion here but every time anyone says anything they say: "DISCLAIMER: This works on my level but probably not at masters" Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose? I imagine you all want to improve, so do a build that lets you get there. Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 10:55 Mindflow wrote:
Please for god sake, some master+ zerg PM me with a good good build vs zerg as terran. Im so lost in the matchup that im actually considering crying myself to Protoss. its fucking terrible right now Wrong thread?
I agree with this statement to the letter, this is not a [G] so point out things that are flat out wrong/ need to be improved/ removed or even added (this isnt pointing at you Clarity, note to readers who just seam to say this will die to XYZ,),
I belive this to be a ideal Zerg BO (when/ if finished, please dont take that to mean i think this is the best build ever ect ect, its a idea in progress) keeping in like with the Z strenghs, drone to saturation then flood with units to deny/ kill/ cripple ect ect and is a BO based on reactions, one i dont think i have come across before, most BO's i have read/ glanced over have been 'This is to do this at this food then do this then do this' kind of deals, i think Zerg should be played with sheer greed in mind, what drew me to try make one like this is to allow such play, playing gas less until i can say they are doing/ going to do/ cant do this, how many times have you blindly threw down a baneling nest to then see them going Mech ect because then when i can say 'they are doing this, i can react with what i need, they playing super greedy also? then i can focus on creep spread and all that non army jazz and think about taking more bases/ keeping map control/ containment, and vice versa if they are makeing pure marine then i know i can morph more banelings then if they going MM or whatever army they doing
Someone above also asked why I felt it needed to be this greedy, my reasoning is simple, T are ment to have a better early game then Z and a worse off late game, by rushing the 3rd base, the safety questioned, forces the game out of the early game alot sooner and in the Zergs favor with +bases and +income and a more 'hard counter' tech path.
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On June 25 2012 07:28 Asukurra wrote:
I need to say this is mainly vs a FE T, not a go to build for any situation, but that being said here are the numbers from doing tests without outside player input, ie being left alone for the first 7 mins, this was to gauge the potential of this build not to show its viability
3rd before queens
5:00 game time
105 mins, 24 drones 3 larvae
2Queens
7:30 game time
760 mins 59 drones 11 larvae
3Queens
3rd at 5mins
5:00 game time
135 mins, 21 drones, 2 larvae
7:30 game time
435 mins, 55 drones, 0 larvae
both games played with 1 set of lings being made when pool pop'ed and was both played using 10ovi 15h 16p and queens up to the amount of hatchs and wasnt supply blocked in either game.
with a decent player trying this I think it might be doable for a ladder game or 2, as you can see in the 7:30 of game 1 i have more larvae then I can get rid and plenty of mins for 3 queens and gas/evos ect ect
The problem here against a good opponent is that when he identifies what you are doing he can send 4 marines and 2-3 scvs, make a bunker at your third and you have no way to stop it yet. All the other pressures I feel can be dealt with against everything except a 1 basing terran ofc.
Just to throw in some ideas here. I have been thinking a while on a 3 hatch before pool opening in ZvT. There have allready been lots of pros playing with the idea in ZvP, although I never really liked it there because of the possibility of cannon rushes.
And the only reason I like the idea in ZvT is that you use the 3rd hatch as a macro hatch/walloff, or maybe even as a way to connect natural and third with creep. I think its safest to pull it out as a wall. Then you take your 3rd base/4th hatch at 6:30. You sacrifice some early game creepspread compared to the 4 queen opening build I explained earlier in the thread, but with the isanely fast 4 hatches you get an insanely ammount of larvae quickly, so it has the potential to be really good if going ling infestor ultra for example.
This is ofc only doable if you manage to varify with your initial dronescout that your oponent is doing 1 rax gasless fe, or cc first. Any reaper opening or 2 rax would destroy this build.
And unlike the first build order I posted, this is just an idea, it is not tried and true. I will test it out in actual ladder matches asap, and post replays and thaughts about this. But I think it might be legit.
Here is a game I just did vs a computer, just to show the idea in practice.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-266062.jpg)
I am still of the opinion that the OPs initial ideas are not legit at any "high" level play.
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TiBoxy roughly how long does it take to get 4 marines and 2-3 scvs to finish building a Bunker/2 includeing travel time ect ect, i dont play T too well so im not too sure on the timings, but this isnt a 3rd before pool build or anything so slow lings/ queens are still about, if you see the small marine push with the starting lings (that arnt delayed, the only delay from the 2 hatch/ 5min 3rd is about 15-20s on your first 2 queens) then you can make some slow lings to deal with it as if it was a normal bunker push, the only diffrence is there will proberly not be any creep for spines, but pulling drones from the 2nd to kill the scv's/ bunker and a few lings to go after the marines isnt a problem i dont think as if thats all the pressure they are aplying then the 3rd would live and then you can catch up and lost mining time very soon
*note* im at work so cant watch the rep just yet.
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United Kingdom20291 Posts
Taking a third hatch before confirming a 1 base all in is not coming will result in your guatanteed death if it is. Any mid masters terran will dispatch you with ease, it is fundamentally impossible to hold 3 bases to 1, and taking the third so early and then losing it will set you behind too far to compete. If you want to take the third early, confirm the terran has another base first (and even then, ive seen tricky shit, recently particularly, baiting a gasless zerg to take a third base behind 4/6 queens and cancelling the CC after killing the scouting overlord to 1 base all in) so that you can live through scouting and knowledge of timings, instead of dumb luck and incompetance from your opponents.
Also, i have no idea why you are using such a build order with zerg, if you suspect 2rax, 15h14p would be the best response, but if you were to scout a factory building and a completed wall, or a cc, then you can delay to 15h17p. Dont go further than 17 though, which gives you pool and hatch finish at the same time, you can instantly double queen and have a notably stronger economic base.
That in of itself is really not the biggest deal, but the way you list things off by supply is a very worrying and bad way to play if you are looking to improve, and so is doing practically anything that you didnt see a pro player do. I am trying to break into low masters right now, i am a horrible player, and all of my opponents are, too, my last memories of gold league were going ~70% win with 17nexus 20nexus in every matchup on a smurf and having a significantly better (5x+ smaller) ratio of unspent resources to income than all of my opponents, and superior multitasking skills. If you have basic game knowledge (know what every unit does) and you can adapt, then the only things you need to learn are macro (timings and amounts of buildings, etc, not lololololo90drones), mechanics and multitasking, and if you dont mess them up you shouldnt have any trouble reaching masters. The reality is that the vast majority of players (>99%) are subpar and incapable of keeping up with things like spending money, and learning to do things like that makes strategy almost irrelevant when facing those players who cant match you in that regard
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On June 25 2012 22:02 Asukurra wrote:
TiBoxy roughly how long does it take to get 4 marines and 2-3 scvs to finish building a Bunker/2 includeing travel time ect ect, i dont play T too well so im not too sure on the timings, but this isnt a 3rd before pool build or anything so slow lings/ queens are still about, if you see the small marine push with the starting lings (that arnt delayed, the only delay from the 2 hatch/ 5min 3rd is about 15-20s on your first 2 queens) then you can make some slow lings to deal with it as if it was a normal bunker push, the only diffrence is there will proberly not be any creep for spines, but pulling drones from the 2nd to kill the scv's/ bunker and a few lings to go after the marines isnt a problem i dont think as if thats all the pressure they are aplying then the 3rd would live and then you can catch up and lost mining time very soon
*note* im at work so cant watch the rep just yet.
If the Terran is going 1 rax, cc then 2 gas at 20 (the most normal opening right now), then he will arrive as your hatch finishes, with the bunker done (if you scout him making the bunker then ofc it will not be done, but still you would have to fend of 4 marines and 1-3 scvs with slowlings and drones alone (no queen). Trust me, you will come out way behind, and it can be a 0 investment scenario from the Terrans perspective. Also all the lings you have to make to keep the hatch alive is potential drones you could have been making, and you dont even have your initial 2 bases satchurated at that time, so up to this point your hatch has been nothing but a bad investment that havent started to pay of yet. Meanwhile if your oponent did the build I mentioned he will potentially have hellions reinforcing a little over 1 minute later. And with your opening, the resources doesnt line up to take 2 gas and a roach warren at 6 mins, (especially not if you had to make lings) so those hellions will be kinda hard to defend with 3 spread out queens and slowlings with 0 creeptumors.
I dont want to be overly critical, just laying down the facts as I see them.
The reason why people go 4 queens then 3rd is to connect that base with creep and then some before something really nasty can arrive. With your opening it is just not possible. Yes you will ofc have more larvae and more potential drones, but imo you are not really safe from anything.
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This sort of build would die to a lot of things, just random marine/bunker pressure or anything really because you dont have creep and you don't have ling speed that early so the 1 rax FE player could throw down extra barracks and just rally to your base.
if you would like to get a greedy fast third check out Intimate ZvX with Stoic. He is a GM zerg doing weekly tutorial videos. check out episode 18 it showcases ZvT. also since you are a lower league then check out his mechanics VOD Intimate ZvX with stoic mechanics. GL HF!
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On June 25 2012 07:28 Asukurra wrote:
I need to say this is mainly vs a FE T, not a go to build for any situation, but that being said here are the numbers from doing tests without outside player input, ie being left alone for the first 7 mins, this was to gauge the potential of this build not to show its viability
3rd before queens
5:00 game time
105 mins, 24 drones 3 larvae
2Queens
7:30 game time
760 mins 59 drones 11 larvae
3Queens
3rd at 5mins
5:00 game time
135 mins, 21 drones, 2 larvae
7:30 game time
435 mins, 55 drones, 0 larvae
both games played with 1 set of lings being made when pool pop'ed and was both played using 10ovi 15h 16p and queens up to the amount of hatchs and wasnt supply blocked in either game.
with a decent player trying this I think it might be doable for a ladder game or 2, as you can see in the 7:30 of game 1 i have more larvae then I can get rid and plenty of mins for 3 queens and gas/evos ect ect
The difference not seen in the numbers is the amount of queens you have in the second variation, which is used for mass creep spread, safety, and map control (or if they snipe tumors then you're wasting his scans).
On June 25 2012 22:37 TiBoxy wrote:I dont want to be overly critical, just laying down the facts as I see them.
The reason why people go 4 queens then 3rd is to connect that base with creep and then some before something really nasty can arrive. With your opening it is just not possible. Yes you will ofc have more larvae and more potential drones, but imo you are not really safe from anything.
QFT as well. 1 rax bunker pressure would probably be enough to shut down your 3rd or at least force you to make lings/pull drones and you'll almost certainly suffer some damage while he can salvage the bunker and back off taking no damage while still expanding at his normal rate.
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High Lvl Master Zerg Here -
To the OP. Yes It can work. However, the build HAS to be adaptable.
For example: Only go for a third base if you scout, 1 rax cc, 14 cc, 1 rax macro cc. If you scout any gas, do not get a third hatch. This means you need to wait to place, or not place, your third base until your lings poke at them.
A drone scout is not good enough because a terran can wait to put down the cc and bunker until you leave or die from the rine.
What I have been playing around with:
they have gasless expanded -->
30 -35 hatch third hatch, with 2 queens,
Drone till early 40's,
3 gas, then roach warren, + evo (for delayed shee attack)
another round of drones, 3 OL.
then delayed roach rush + third queen at new base. (like 5-8 roaches)
These roaches should poke out in the 7-8 min range. Just in time to deal with the terrans's delayed helion poke.
then you poke with them to see what the terran is doing while fully saturating that new base
Mass helion? this is mech, make more roaches for Defense while gettting a macro hatch.
get two evo's, (total), and get 1/1 then speed, then lair
(then do your personal style of build from here. Mutas, roach/bane, infestor, ect ect ect.
But what if, OH shit! I dont see a base!
so then get 4 queen and a spine. and drone up.
But now. OH SHIT THEY Just landed one, and they were gasless.
then get your third base at 40's, and do the same build as before.
Let me know if you want any replays. I will post some later on request. I have a few from today and yesterday.
EndO
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United States4883 Posts
On June 22 2012 21:59 MrLlama wrote:
high masters zerg
I'm not going to completely shut this idea down because I haven't done any real testing on this yet, but I will give my thoughts.
The reason TvZ is Different than PvZ is that terrans always have forces building. Protoss will leave you alone for 7-8 minutes for the most part and so taking that fast 3rd is easy for you since he had to invest in a forge first instead of a gateway first.
Terrans start off with barracks and factories and thus a fast 21supply 3rd would be no problem whatsoever to kill off. I don't think banshees would be the problem here as those can easily be defended, I just simply think they can walk over to your 3rd with a marine/X force at 6 minutes minutes and kill your 3rd. I've had it happen to me in many games where I have taken a later 3rd and had a roach ling army. Against terran you actually need to invest in units early on and those minerals that you are spending on that 3rd hatch suddenly becomes extra spines or queens that you could have had to defend some sort of push. It just seems too greedy to me.
That being said, I think it'd be interesting to think about taking a fast 3rd hatchery like that in your base as a macro hatch. But it still may be too greedy.
Note: I think if you just extend that 3rd hatch timing to a little beyond 21 supply, you'd be in a better position. Getting it before the queens is too much in my opinion though.
I agree. I play terran and generally start with a 1rax FE into 4rax with a marine timing around 7:00. Based on how zerg has to delay gas and rely on slowlings/queens for this attack, I've almost 100% of the time killed off or denied the 3rd from going down.
Therefore, I agree that this idea works wonderfully against a plethora of builds, but any player that opens with mass rax or some kind of all-in timing before 10:00 is going to stomp this opening.
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I will be intrested in seeing some replays EndOfLine, and SC2John, anything at 7 mins wouldnt be much of a problem as you can have a full saturated 3rd and 6 queens and speed/baneling nest done long before then off of 1 or 2 gas, but judgeing from the responce im getting from higher leagues im getting decressingly confident this is a end league viable BO the mindset seams too aggressive aggainst this build from the T point of View and would be reliant compleately on a indivuduals defence micro
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Top diamond/low masters here but currently about 80+ % winrate vs. the masters terrans I play often. (I will not give any advice vs. toss since it sucks me into diamond)
First off I think the concept of three hatches early vs. terran is a good one. The current opening game has shifted considerably in the past few months from consistent 2 rax and proxy rax and hellion openings to 1 rax FE. I have found (via roach/bling hits) that I also catch the terran with very greedy 3rd CC after their FE and it's protective bunker, assuming the zerg will be droning. If I smell this with an OL or lucky scout then I usually hit them in the face with roach/bling. My point being that the current metagame is that terran is getting hugely eco early on since zergs have learned to deal with the early game shenanigans and they were getting behind.
So _if_ they do hellions/2 rax, your build is dead period. Fortunately, those are less common now, so your opening is semi-viable.
The idea of hatch before queens is dubious. The main point of having hatcheries is to get minerals. You need drones to accomplish this. In the early game, drones are exponentially more significant (ie, recovery from a failed 6pool is WAY harder than a failed 8pool) and you are essentially sacrificing 7 early game drones for that hatch (300 mins + drone). Each drone mines 40 mins/minute so that's actually big hit early on. Eventually your graph will come back and cross, but no real game scenario will actually allow you to saturate all three such that you are mining more than you would have otherwise with 2 bases. In other words, you will have a hatch that is producing but has no drones mining because you are making zerglings to fend off his aggression. This is what happens when you get too greedy with early hatching.
I actually do play 3 early hatches currently in most terran matches and I'll describe the scenario; it is essentially what you are suggesting, but I can provide a bit more framework so people don't just die by doing it blindly.
If my natural gets up with no bunker aggression and their two marines are killing my gas steal in their base (I hate early banshees and this identifies a proxy 2 rax since they leave you alone) then I check to see if their natural is going down with my first overlord which is in waiting just for this. Most often we see; they usually do this on the low ground since their scout has identified my 15hatch/15pool and they know I'm going macro (your lings won't get there before the bunker unless they are super duper greedy). I only get two lings out, one for a forward scout and one for the farthest zelnaga.
When I see that second CC with my OL that I camp next to their natural gasses, I toss out my third hatch. It's safe. You can get creep to it in time for a banshee, you can get speedlings for hellions (although you gotta play smart because you can get overrun if you aren't ready) and you can still respond to a quick marine/tank pushout.
That's my take at least. I don't fully saturate it for a while, though, usually about 10-12 drones because if you don't start making a few units soon you can get hit hard.. nothing worse than 6 hellions frying your drones because you were way too greedy. I usually stick a spine or two down also because you can afford it and it always pays off, if not now then later for drop defense since the third is usually where they drop first.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 27 2012 14:19 SadCheese wrote:
Top diamond/low masters here but currently about 80+ % winrate vs. the masters terrans I play often. (I will not give any advice vs. toss since it sucks me into diamond)
First off I think the concept of three hatches early vs. terran is a good one. The current opening game has shifted considerably in the past few months from consistent 2 rax and proxy rax and hellion openings to 1 rax FE. I have found (via roach/bling hits) that I also catch the terran with very greedy 3rd CC after their FE and it's protective bunker, assuming the zerg will be droning. If I smell this with an OL or lucky scout then I usually hit them in the face with roach/bling. My point being that the current metagame is that terran is getting hugely eco early on since zergs have learned to deal with the early game shenanigans and they were getting behind.
So _if_ they do hellions/2 rax, your build is dead period. Fortunately, those are less common now, so your opening is semi-viable.
The idea of hatch before queens is dubious. The main point of having hatcheries is to get minerals. You need drones to accomplish this. In the early game, drones are exponentially more significant (ie, recovery from a failed 6pool is WAY harder than a failed 8pool) and you are essentially sacrificing 7 early game drones for that hatch (300 mins + drone). Each drone mines 40 mins/minute so that's actually big hit early on. Eventually your graph will come back and cross, but no real game scenario will actually allow you to saturate all three such that you are mining more than you would have otherwise with 2 bases. In other words, you will have a hatch that is producing but has no drones mining because you are making zerglings to fend off his aggression. This is what happens when you get too greedy with early hatching.
I actually do play 3 early hatches currently in most terran matches and I'll describe the scenario; it is essentially what you are suggesting, but I can provide a bit more framework so people don't just die by doing it blindly.
If my natural gets up with no bunker aggression and their two marines are killing my gas steal in their base (I hate early banshees and this identifies a proxy 2 rax since they leave you alone) then I check to see if their natural is going down with my first overlord which is in waiting just for this. Most often we see; they usually do this on the low ground since their scout has identified my 15hatch/15pool and they know I'm going macro (your lings won't get there before the bunker unless they are super duper greedy). I only get two lings out, one for a forward scout and one for the farthest zelnaga.
When I see that second CC with my OL that I camp next to their natural gasses, I toss out my third hatch. It's safe. You can get creep to it in time for a banshee, you can get speedlings for hellions (although you gotta play smart because you can get overrun if you aren't ready) and you can still respond to a quick marine/tank pushout.
That's my take at least. I don't fully saturate it for a while, though, usually about 10-12 drones because if you don't start making a few units soon you can get hit hard.. nothing worse than 6 hellions frying your drones because you were way too greedy. I usually stick a spine or two down also because you can afford it and it always pays off, if not now then later for drop defense since the third is usually where they drop first.
Thank you for your input and might well be the saving grace of getting this worked out seeing as you do something close too, The framework for reactions you described is very handy and the sort of thing i want this build to maybe blossem into, a few points i need to bring up and hopefully you can answer
i love the addition to get a gas steal drone for early scouting of gas/ gassless, does waiting for 1/2 marines to kill the give you enough time to find out if it is a gassless expand? I.E will it delay his gas for long enough for him to 'need' it for whatever he needs it for
my other main question/ reason i first tried this, getting 3rd before queens isnt costing me 7 drones as i dont have enough larvae to spend to get the drones, the sheer greed of this build is 3rd at 3 15, no drone cutting ect, its the same as getting the first 2 queens, then your only working around 15s behind a 'normal' build but have the 3rd finished around 5mins, and even then they are only delayed by 15 seconds ish depending on how well im macroing that game, the reason i though hatch before queens is a few times (due to my poor multi tasking) ive been trying to micro something ect and havnt made anything and found ive been distracted enough to have 300 'spare' mins after using larvae for drones/lings [i]One addition i think i might have to do to make up for this creep shortcomeings that is a lot more important higher up is instead of going double inject for the first 2 queens that would give me plenty of larvae to 'spend' as i get the mins, do double creep to connect bases and get a good start on the creep spread, and then keep them up front for the '4 rine+ bunker' ideas people have mentioned and spend all the larvae as i get it but bank more mins for the delayed first double inject
ill have to do a full income analysis for the proposed ideas above and see when the graph will cross paths
ill test out
double inject
double creep
1 inject 1 creep (nat to 3rd proberly)
dam work getting in the way of important starcraft things T_T
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i love the addition to get a gas steal drone for early scouting of gas/ gassless, does waiting for 1/2 marines to kill the give you enough time to find out if it is a gassless expand? I.E will it delay his gas for long enough for him to 'need' it for whatever he needs it for
This won't tell you if it is a gasless expand. It strongly suggests a 1 Rax expand but not definite. When your drone enters the base and you see no gas and only 1 barracks then there is either 1 Rax proxied somewhere or a CC coming. If you take a gas and it is attacked by one of the first marines then you will know that you aren't being bunker rushed and wont have to save larva for lings. That being said, nothing stops the Terran from killing the extractor, double gassing and going 2 port banshee (delayed but will still kill you if unscouted) anyways.
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On June 27 2012 21:50 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +i love the addition to get a gas steal drone for early scouting of gas/ gassless, does waiting for 1/2 marines to kill the give you enough time to find out if it is a gassless expand? I.E will it delay his gas for long enough for him to 'need' it for whatever he needs it for This won't tell you if it is a gasless expand. It strongly suggests a 1 Rax expand but not definite. When your drone enters the base and you see no gas and only 1 barracks then there is either 1 Rax proxied somewhere or a CC coming. If you take a gas and it is attacked by one of the first marines then you will know that you aren't being bunker rushed and wont have to save larva for lings. That being said, nothing stops the Terran from killing the extractor, double gassing and going 2 port banshee (delayed but will still kill you if unscouted) anyways.
Thanks for your input on the T side of things (the suggest of 1 rax ect) ill be sure to add it to my list of timings i need to check against and who knows with tweaking from some masters to get a end league viable BO this could get intresting
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Only time you need a third this quick is vs CC before Rax.
Otherwise, there is literally NO POINT in taking it this fast because you wont gain anything from it... as opposed to just taking it at 5:00~7:00. You will, on the other hand, lose a drone and 300 minerals that could have been spent more wisely early on.
You can also take it as late as 10:00 and still be fine against terran. Lot of zergs have this style as well, and that also depends on the flow of the game and how aggressive the terran's build is.
Also, you lose the "scare factor" of a terran getting all inned by roach/baneling/ling etc. If they see you take a fast third without gas like that, they know they are safe to be greedy themselves.
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On June 26 2012 17:01 Asukurra wrote:
I will be intrested in seeing some replays EndOfLine, and SC2John, anything at 7 mins wouldnt be much of a problem as you can have a full saturated 3rd and 6 queens and speed/baneling nest done long before then off of 1 or 2 gas, but judgeing from the responce im getting from higher leagues im getting decressingly confident this is a end league viable BO the mindset seams too aggressive aggainst this build from the T point of View and would be reliant compleately on a indivuduals defence micro
Sure. When I get back home from Work ill upload some ^_^
(however, I dont tend to get extra queens unless I have too)
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Why is that even a thing?
3rd at 3.15 in zvt? why? there is like NO reason for it. In ZvP people sometimes wait to like ~5 and in zvp you are always perfectly safe. So why 3.15 in ZvT? It's not like you have no place to mine from, because you will never have fully saturated two bases at ~5 minute mark and even if you had that saturation and was in need of a 3rd, you can't have harvesters there because of the hellions that are in 90% of ZvTs ...
And it's not like you're getting some larva out of it because your queens are late. Later queens equal less creep, and creep it the most important factor of a gasless buid.. not drones, bases, income.. CREEP.
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On June 26 2012 08:04 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 21:59 MrLlama wrote:
high masters zerg
I'm not going to completely shut this idea down because I haven't done any real testing on this yet, but I will give my thoughts.
The reason TvZ is Different than PvZ is that terrans always have forces building. Protoss will leave you alone for 7-8 minutes for the most part and so taking that fast 3rd is easy for you since he had to invest in a forge first instead of a gateway first.
Terrans start off with barracks and factories and thus a fast 21supply 3rd would be no problem whatsoever to kill off. I don't think banshees would be the problem here as those can easily be defended, I just simply think they can walk over to your 3rd with a marine/X force at 6 minutes minutes and kill your 3rd. I've had it happen to me in many games where I have taken a later 3rd and had a roach ling army. Against terran you actually need to invest in units early on and those minerals that you are spending on that 3rd hatch suddenly becomes extra spines or queens that you could have had to defend some sort of push. It just seems too greedy to me.
That being said, I think it'd be interesting to think about taking a fast 3rd hatchery like that in your base as a macro hatch. But it still may be too greedy.
Note: I think if you just extend that 3rd hatch timing to a little beyond 21 supply, you'd be in a better position. Getting it before the queens is too much in my opinion though. I agree. I play terran and generally start with a 1rax FE into 4rax with a marine timing around 7:00. Based on how zerg has to delay gas and rely on slowlings/queens for this attack, I've almost 100% of the time killed off or denied the 3rd from going down. Therefore, I agree that this idea works wonderfully against a plethora of builds, but any player that opens with mass rax or some kind of all-in timing before 10:00 is going to stomp this opening.
I still think that this build is an overly greedy risk no matter the FE from Terran, because Terrans scouting with hellions can reactively punish you, and any marine pressure will kill your third. It's not even a good risk, because you want 2 queens asap to push out larvae in case you need lings to defend, and in the case of most FEs, to drone up so that you're even with the double OC.
The only time I would drop a fast third hatch is, as was mentioned, as a macro hatch, and even then only
if I were to use it as part of a simcity to deny hellions, saving me a queen as well. This is mostly useful on maps like Ohana where creep spread past the ramp of the natural can be difficult against an active hellion player, so I figure I'd rather be fully safe from hellions and eschew creep spread for the moment (I still take the third using roaches) and drone hard, but this loses quite convincingly to a hellion-marine elevator. In fact, I think the elevator can be done reactively when he sees the macro hatch and scans a ton of drones, so if you try this, be more careful than I was, build some lings.
Under no circumstances would I get a third hatch before two queens and gas in ZvT, or before the second pair of queens if gasless. 90% of the time I want to drone up off those first two injects, too, and won't spend money on a third hatch before then, either. I can't say I see any real advantage to this build, sorry.
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this is viable on some maps, on others aren't. Since the most common thing nowadays on T side is 1rax cc or even cc first, there is a lot to keep in mind following that. If the terran goes for 4 rax and decides to be aggressive, seeing ur hatch, maps like Shakuras will kill you. Well, no, but kill the 3rd. Because ur lings have no speed, to build 3 hatchs, you need quite a few drones, you wont have creepspread, so queens can't defend it. That is the main point, on maps, where there are different ramps and a bit of distance between 2nd and 3rd, you shouldn't do it. That applies even though we are assuming that you wont get 2rax'ed. You can scout double hellion oppening by watching their gas with ovie(150 gas mined) or they might go instant reactor even lately. and you shouldn't do it vs that aswell.
Other than that, if enemy goes for fast CC, your 3rd is not far away from ur natural, feel free to take it around 4+ minutes.
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On June 28 2012 05:46 Sapp wrote:
Why is that even a thing?
3rd at 3.15 in zvt? why? there is like NO reason for it. In ZvP people sometimes wait to like ~5 and in zvp you are always perfectly safe. So why 3.15 in ZvT? It's not like you have no place to mine from, because you will never have fully saturated two bases at ~5 minute mark and even if you had that saturation and was in need of a 3rd, you can't have harvesters there because of the hellions that are in 90% of ZvTs ...
And it's not like you're getting some larva out of it because your queens are late. Later queens equal less creep, and creep it the most important factor of a gasless buid.. not drones, bases, income.. CREEP.
I know right.. It is not a thing, trust me. It is just a badly timed random build made by a guy who doesnt understand the game enough to realize that its just plain bad. He is asking for discussion, and input from master players, and he has gotten quite a bit already, but he is just the type of guy to ignore every negative feedback he gets as long as 1 in 5 can remotely resemble something positive. I dont think there is any use to give any more feedback here, and I dont really see any reason why this thread should even be open anymore.
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hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt.
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On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt.
I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this.
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On June 29 2012 04:29 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt. I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this.
As have I, ill just clear up a few things, 1, I play Random not Zerg, i dont have much of a problem with ZvT or TvZ but doing build orders is enjoyable and i enjoy doing them, but what has annoyed me about your post isnt that you dont like it, i dont care if people like this, or me for that matter, its that you think only high masters/ gm's are allowed to try and tinker with making build orders, at no point am i trying to re write the meta, i use this in some of my zvt's and not in others, its not about the winning every game, its intresting seeing the can and cants of certain things, be it a build or trying to find 'new' ways of using units and its just fun to mess about, this is a game, games are for fun
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You will also die to reaper->expand.
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I have been actually doing this in silver lately. I find its easy to perform and quite useful. I do have a tendency to skip the second creep queen for a spine crawler, but it is actually useful as you can traditionally out macro a terran player early on. If you dont let it get past the 20 minute mark before having a viable force then you can really pin them down and force a submission. It's a bit risky for fast terran players if you don't realize that they're going for early aggression or an all-in.
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On June 29 2012 04:57 Asukurra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 04:29 6xFPCs wrote:On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt. I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this. As have I, ill just clear up a few things, 1, I play Random not Zerg, i dont have much of a problem with ZvT or TvZ but doing build orders is enjoyable and i enjoy doing them, but what has annoyed me about your post isnt that you dont like it, i dont care if people like this, or me for that matter, its that you think only high masters/ gm's are allowed to try and tinker with making build orders, at no point am i trying to re write the meta, i use this in some of my zvt's and not in others, its not about the winning every game, its intresting seeing the can and cants of certain things, be it a build or trying to find 'new' ways of using units and its just fun to mess about, this is a game, games are for fun
Hm. Perhaps you and I are operating on different assumptions about what a [D] thread on TL entails. I believe that the purpose of such thread is to subject an idea with some merit to the criticism of a serious community focused on competitive success. Hence the relentless criticism backed by reasonable concerns.
You can try all the fun builds you like, but don't continue to imply that you are going to be able to test and tweak until this build is worthy of TL Strategy attention. We are trying to communicate to the other zergs reading this thread that this is not a competitive build on par with current builds, which is what it seems like you are suggesting it could be, with your "testing" and attempts to debate our concerns. That is my biggest issue with your thread, that some poor plat or diamond zerg is going to think you've managed to address the problems that many of us have brought up, and he's going to go on ladder and lose.
If your build is happyfuntime screwing around because losing is ok, then be clear about it, and admit that the issues we've brought up prevent it from being a viable build.
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On June 29 2012 06:25 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 04:57 Asukurra wrote:On June 29 2012 04:29 6xFPCs wrote:On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt. I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this. As have I, ill just clear up a few things, 1, I play Random not Zerg, i dont have much of a problem with ZvT or TvZ but doing build orders is enjoyable and i enjoy doing them, but what has annoyed me about your post isnt that you dont like it, i dont care if people like this, or me for that matter, its that you think only high masters/ gm's are allowed to try and tinker with making build orders, at no point am i trying to re write the meta, i use this in some of my zvt's and not in others, its not about the winning every game, its intresting seeing the can and cants of certain things, be it a build or trying to find 'new' ways of using units and its just fun to mess about, this is a game, games are for fun Hm. Perhaps you and I are operating on different assumptions about what a [D] thread on TL entails. I believe that the purpose of such thread is to subject an idea with some merit to the criticism of a serious community focused on competitive success. Hence the relentless criticism backed by reasonable concerns. You can try all the fun builds you like, but don't continue to imply that you are going to be able to test and tweak until this build is worthy of TL Strategy attention. We are trying to communicate to the other zergs reading this thread that this is not a competitive build on par with current builds, which is what it seems like you are suggesting it could be, with your "testing" and attempts to debate our concerns. That is my biggest issue with your thread, that some poor plat or diamond zerg is going to think you've managed to address the problems that many of us have brought up, and he's going to go on ladder and lose. If your build is happyfuntime screwing around because losing is ok, then be clear about it, and admit that the issues we've brought up prevent it from being a viable build.
Here are the guidelines for creating a [d] thread. As far as I can see, he is complying with all the requirements. There is no requirement that you need to be Master or Grandmaster to ask other players what they think about a strategy, and so far there has been good and well mannered discussion on the topic.
[D] Discussion Thread: Be clear about the topic and the feedback you are hoping for
Posting a [D] Thread:
This is the most open form of thread. Use a Discussion thread if you are not certain about some game mechanic and you want to get the feedback from other players. This can be about strategy and tactics, the role and viability of certain units, rock paper scissor counters, etc. The building blocks of what becomes sound SC2 strategy.
While the thread is less formal, please be clear and concise on the topic you want to discuss about, and open with your own opinion. Don’t make the topic too broad.
Make sure that the topic is worthy of discussion. If it can be definitively answered easily, it should probably be in a race specific help me thread. Use your own judgment for this.
This is the perfect way to post a strategy you came up with that is not quite ready to be turned into a guide (See below). Post your strategy and point out the areas where you are not sure about its validity and ask for feedback.
Feedback on [D] threads:
Be respectful and remember Rule No 1.
You wanted to generate discussion, so please don’t brush off suggestions you don’t agree with. Post your counter argument and back it up (Rule No 1). The same goes for people replying to such threads.
Threads like these are a welcome place for people less experienced to ask for opinions, make suggestions and engage in discussion.
It is fine that you don't think it is worthy of discussion, but there is no reason to be rude to the OP and dismiss everything he says because he is not master or grandmaster. If you no longer want to be a part of the discussion you can read a different post on the strategy forum.
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On June 29 2012 08:51 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 06:25 6xFPCs wrote:On June 29 2012 04:57 Asukurra wrote:On June 29 2012 04:29 6xFPCs wrote:On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt. I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this. As have I, ill just clear up a few things, 1, I play Random not Zerg, i dont have much of a problem with ZvT or TvZ but doing build orders is enjoyable and i enjoy doing them, but what has annoyed me about your post isnt that you dont like it, i dont care if people like this, or me for that matter, its that you think only high masters/ gm's are allowed to try and tinker with making build orders, at no point am i trying to re write the meta, i use this in some of my zvt's and not in others, its not about the winning every game, its intresting seeing the can and cants of certain things, be it a build or trying to find 'new' ways of using units and its just fun to mess about, this is a game, games are for fun Hm. Perhaps you and I are operating on different assumptions about what a [D] thread on TL entails. I believe that the purpose of such thread is to subject an idea with some merit to the criticism of a serious community focused on competitive success. Hence the relentless criticism backed by reasonable concerns. You can try all the fun builds you like, but don't continue to imply that you are going to be able to test and tweak until this build is worthy of TL Strategy attention. We are trying to communicate to the other zergs reading this thread that this is not a competitive build on par with current builds, which is what it seems like you are suggesting it could be, with your "testing" and attempts to debate our concerns. That is my biggest issue with your thread, that some poor plat or diamond zerg is going to think you've managed to address the problems that many of us have brought up, and he's going to go on ladder and lose. If your build is happyfuntime screwing around because losing is ok, then be clear about it, and admit that the issues we've brought up prevent it from being a viable build. Here are the guidelines for creating a [d] thread. As far as I can see, he is complying with all the requirements. There is no requirement that you need to be Master or Grandmaster to ask other players what they think about a strategy, and so far there has been good and well mannered discussion on the topic. Show nested quote +[D] Discussion Thread: Be clear about the topic and the feedback you are hoping for
Posting a [D] Thread:
This is the most open form of thread. Use a Discussion thread if you are not certain about some game mechanic and you want to get the feedback from other players. This can be about strategy and tactics, the role and viability of certain units, rock paper scissor counters, etc. The building blocks of what becomes sound SC2 strategy.
While the thread is less formal, please be clear and concise on the topic you want to discuss about, and open with your own opinion. Don’t make the topic too broad.
Make sure that the topic is worthy of discussion. If it can be definitively answered easily, it should probably be in a race specific help me thread. Use your own judgment for this.
This is the perfect way to post a strategy you came up with that is not quite ready to be turned into a guide (See below). Post your strategy and point out the areas where you are not sure about its validity and ask for feedback.
Feedback on [D] threads:
Be respectful and remember Rule No 1.
You wanted to generate discussion, so please don’t brush off suggestions you don’t agree with. Post your counter argument and back it up (Rule No 1). The same goes for people replying to such threads.
Threads like these are a welcome place for people less experienced to ask for opinions, make suggestions and engage in discussion. It is fine that you don't think it is worthy of discussion, but there is no reason to be rude to the OP and dismiss everything he says because he is not master or grandmaster. If you no longer want to be a part of the discussion you can read a different post on the strategy forum.
Do not misread my posts. I reread the guidelines before making the last post, and I read those guidelines at least once a week because I know I have a harsh tone and I don't want to violate the rules.
I did not say that he needs to be master or GM to make a discussion thread. I said that his testing will not convince us because it is gold/plat, and we are talking about diamond+. However, OP seems to have deviated from that topic. Let me explain.
He originally asked to discuss the viability of the strategy at diamond+ levels. That is the topic of discussion. We did that. We haven't brushed off his suggestions, we've given valid criticism, which has not been answered to our satisfaction in the vein of the discussion topic. Instead, the OP is now pretending that we're gunning for him, and resorting saying that "this build just for fun"--but that's not the topic under discussion. I should start saying "I", though, because I don't want these other guys catching any flack intended for me.
I am not dismissing what he says. I am simply telling him that coming back with a slew of gold/plat level testing isn't going to contribute to a discussion about the viability of a build at DIAMOND OR HIGHER. I wanted to make sure that he wasn't doing this just to try and convince anyone that this works at diamond or masters by using gold/plat replays as proof. Perhaps I was wrong to say high masters or GM, but that is the caliber of player that I would want to test a build before I trust in it.
I do not feel that I am being rude, I think I am being decisively on topic. I will not soften my words because I don't want anyone out there getting confused about this; if I were to coddle OP and say "oh hey great idea, but I think there's some cause for concern X, also maybe Y", then some lurker out there is going think "hey it's a great idea" and get a 4min third hatch in ZvT and lose for it.
Don't do it, unknown lurker. Don't do it. I'm here for you.
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So Im doing a greedy opener to get similar economy or not even ahead at all to the zerg. But he clears me out with the roach/bane/ling allin that i CANNOT hold. Bashing my head on the keyboard.
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Make 4-6 queens, add in a spine.
Strategy doesn't really matter after that. If you're having trouble add in more spines or actually make units instead of drones. Keep up with upgrades and there isn't a way you can lose TBH.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 29 2012 15:30 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 08:51 MstrJinbo wrote:On June 29 2012 06:25 6xFPCs wrote:On June 29 2012 04:57 Asukurra wrote:On June 29 2012 04:29 6xFPCs wrote:On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt. I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this. As have I, ill just clear up a few things, 1, I play Random not Zerg, i dont have much of a problem with ZvT or TvZ but doing build orders is enjoyable and i enjoy doing them, but what has annoyed me about your post isnt that you dont like it, i dont care if people like this, or me for that matter, its that you think only high masters/ gm's are allowed to try and tinker with making build orders, at no point am i trying to re write the meta, i use this in some of my zvt's and not in others, its not about the winning every game, its intresting seeing the can and cants of certain things, be it a build or trying to find 'new' ways of using units and its just fun to mess about, this is a game, games are for fun Hm. Perhaps you and I are operating on different assumptions about what a [D] thread on TL entails. I believe that the purpose of such thread is to subject an idea with some merit to the criticism of a serious community focused on competitive success. Hence the relentless criticism backed by reasonable concerns. You can try all the fun builds you like, but don't continue to imply that you are going to be able to test and tweak until this build is worthy of TL Strategy attention. We are trying to communicate to the other zergs reading this thread that this is not a competitive build on par with current builds, which is what it seems like you are suggesting it could be, with your "testing" and attempts to debate our concerns. That is my biggest issue with your thread, that some poor plat or diamond zerg is going to think you've managed to address the problems that many of us have brought up, and he's going to go on ladder and lose. If your build is happyfuntime screwing around because losing is ok, then be clear about it, and admit that the issues we've brought up prevent it from being a viable build. Here are the guidelines for creating a [d] thread. As far as I can see, he is complying with all the requirements. There is no requirement that you need to be Master or Grandmaster to ask other players what they think about a strategy, and so far there has been good and well mannered discussion on the topic. [D] Discussion Thread: Be clear about the topic and the feedback you are hoping for
Posting a [D] Thread:
This is the most open form of thread. Use a Discussion thread if you are not certain about some game mechanic and you want to get the feedback from other players. This can be about strategy and tactics, the role and viability of certain units, rock paper scissor counters, etc. The building blocks of what becomes sound SC2 strategy.
While the thread is less formal, please be clear and concise on the topic you want to discuss about, and open with your own opinion. Don’t make the topic too broad.
Make sure that the topic is worthy of discussion. If it can be definitively answered easily, it should probably be in a race specific help me thread. Use your own judgment for this.
This is the perfect way to post a strategy you came up with that is not quite ready to be turned into a guide (See below). Post your strategy and point out the areas where you are not sure about its validity and ask for feedback.
Feedback on [D] threads:
Be respectful and remember Rule No 1.
You wanted to generate discussion, so please don’t brush off suggestions you don’t agree with. Post your counter argument and back it up (Rule No 1). The same goes for people replying to such threads.
Threads like these are a welcome place for people less experienced to ask for opinions, make suggestions and engage in discussion. It is fine that you don't think it is worthy of discussion, but there is no reason to be rude to the OP and dismiss everything he says because he is not master or grandmaster. If you no longer want to be a part of the discussion you can read a different post on the strategy forum. Do not misread my posts. I reread the guidelines before making the last post, and I read those guidelines at least once a week because I know I have a harsh tone and I don't want to violate the rules. I did not say that he needs to be master or GM to make a discussion thread. I said that his testing will not convince us because it is gold/plat, and we are talking about diamond+. However, OP seems to have deviated from that topic. Let me explain. He originally asked to discuss the viability of the strategy at diamond+ levels. That is the topic of discussion. We did that. We haven't brushed off his suggestions, we've given valid criticism, which has not been answered to our satisfaction in the vein of the discussion topic. Instead, the OP is now pretending that we're gunning for him, and resorting saying that "this build just for fun"--but that's not the topic under discussion. I should start saying "I", though, because I don't want these other guys catching any flack intended for me. I am not dismissing what he says. I am simply telling him that coming back with a slew of gold/plat level testing isn't going to contribute to a discussion about the viability of a build at DIAMOND OR HIGHER. I wanted to make sure that he wasn't doing this just to try and convince anyone that this works at diamond or masters by using gold/plat replays as proof. Perhaps I was wrong to say high masters or GM, but that is the caliber of player that I would want to test a build before I trust in it. I do not feel that I am being rude, I think I am being decisively on topic. I will not soften my words because I don't want anyone out there getting confused about this; if I were to coddle OP and say "oh hey great idea, but I think there's some cause for concern X, also maybe Y", then some lurker out there is going think "hey it's a great idea" and get a 4min third hatch in ZvT and lose for it. Don't do it, unknown lurker. Don't do it. I'm here for you.
I dont feel that you are gunning at me, and i have addressed all the crit comeing to the build, at no point was i expecting everyone to go, i love it lets use it, also its a [d] thread not a [g], im not expecting anyone to try and take this and use it on the ladder in the current state, thats why ive repeated myself a lot saying its a work in progress. Secondly the reason i havnt put any replays on for this is simple, the testing im doing into the build isnt vs other players yet for the reason you said, im only gold/plat so all the testing im doing is to do with drone count, larvae, creep distace over time queen count and timings, the time to sat each base and the most efficient way I can use the 3 bases if held ect ect, min income, the defensive timings related to T aggression ect ect and all that jazz and if it matters to you i have 2 master Zergs helping me with all the testing things. And i think you misunderstood what i meant when i said it for fun, its what i do for fun, not the build order, trying to make the BO as viable as it can be and i mess about with the timings in my own ladder games, trying to see random factors and odd 'off' builds that might give me ideas/ show up problems.
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On June 25 2012 16:59 Asukurra wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 25 2012 08:16 GRCJH wrote:Top 8 diamond terran here. Any particular reason you're going for a 4 minute third? Have you spent any time going for a more standard 6 or 7 minute third? A meching terran will be able to take down that third with hellions alone. It's also vulnerable to bunker rushes off of 1 barracks. You'll be surprised at how aggressive a terran can be after their first rax is complete should you throw down a hatch that early. Equally you'll be just as surprised at how easy it can be to defend a third when you take it at 6 - 7 minutes. You'll be able to transfer drones too rather than having to make drones to saturate both your natural and third at the same time. There's nothing wrong with a little greed, but I detect a hint of novelty in a 4 minute third, it doesn't seem practical or safe. EDIT: ahh I see the numbers, good for you for testing it all out! I stand by the novelty statement but who cares what I think, follow your heart... your gross zerg heart... The 3rd gos down at 3:15 so by the 5 min mark its about to pop, and yea ive had alot of aggressive T try to punish this but vs high gold/ mid plat players they put themselves behind imo, too many have scouted it near finished and suddenly go full throttle attack (extra rax and all marine push) ect ect but by the time they can do a reaction attack the 6 queens can be up and at any time i can swap between drone and defence mode, teh amount of larva can simply overwhelm most pushs with slow lings alone and this isnt a you must stay on gas less, it allows fast tech (6 gas if you keep your 3rd) and roach warren +1 gas at any time will keep you alive if they over commit to Hellions, also with the increase of mins and drones you can be libral with the spine crawlers, they are helpful late game as well, if they pull back then you have a 3rd and can move the spines beind the min lines to help defend drops ect ect not so much a novelty, just a greedy build that seams to get away with it more oftern then I would have thought, thats why I brought it up here + Show Spoiler +I don't know why but going gasless until the 50 supply mark seems very risky even against a FE Terran. With 6 queens, it still seems like a decent amount of hellions would be able to outmaneuver the queens even on the creep. 2 queens/hatch isn't going to do much to defend 6-8 hellions constantly alternating between your nat/3rd frying drones.
That said, I've been trying to find a good timing to get a 3rd against T. Most of the time I just play it safe and build a macro hatch first since losing a 3rd to Ts first push is almost auto GG. the build isnt designed to stay gas less until XXX time or XXX supply its a stay gas less until you feel under pressure then take all together to boom your tech, as for the 6-8 hellions, 4 queens sitting in 1 area (after spreading some creep hopefully) will buy enough time to get A)Roachs or B) spines the drone increase and min increase allows as such and I find this super early 3rd to be a better then thought time as no one expects it and people underestimate the amount of defence you can suddenly produce to hold off people 'knee jerk' attacking (going "what greedy bastard, better go kill him")
you WILL die to any kind of 2 rax, you know this, yes?
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you WILL die to any kind of 2 rax, you know this, yes?
yes, thats why this is a Vs FE idea, not a 'go to' build order
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On June 29 2012 04:57 Asukurra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 04:29 6xFPCs wrote:On June 29 2012 00:28 Asukurra wrote:
hardly ther case, each time someone has mentioned a problem with the build i have done a bit of a look into it and got some numbers to try and fix it, as ive said before this is a work in progress, as for ramdomly timed, its not, its the fasted time you can get a 3rd down, and for not having the creep to get there, Queens are only delayed by 15 seconds and no larvae to spend so not a game breaking amount below high masters im sure, and the reasoning for it is above but quick recap, more bases is better in my eyes reguardless if it dosnt start off at 100% use also the T early game is meant to be their best so any advantages to be gained should be tried, its how things diffrent play styles turn up, also the view of the 5-6 people who have commented good or bad in this thread isnt enough to say this is a good/bad/indiffrent and im not asking you to like it, or use it or anything to it, your input is much thanked and the points you have mentioned in your earlyier posts was taken and is in my current testing for it, when im finished with my next wave of testing ill put the numbers back up here and then the new feedback will be looked at and ill go from there, and its not a thing yet, might never be, but im going to keep going until I i happy with the answer, the only reason I posted it on here is because people i talk to irl suggested it and thought it couldnt huet, and it hasnt. I already said my piece, but I want to add for your sake that whatever testing you do, other than adding actual numbers to the timings, doesn't mean much unless you're high masters or GM. Whether or not you can consistently beat a plat terran with this because you're "safe" against plat mechanics and thinking doesn't matter to the rest of us. Keep that in mind before you sink a lot of your time into trying to prove the viability of this. As have I, ill just clear up a few things, 1, I play Random not Zerg, i dont have much of a problem with ZvT or TvZ but doing build orders is enjoyable and i enjoy doing them, but what has annoyed me about your post isnt that you dont like it, i dont care if people like this, or me for that matter, its that you think only high masters/ gm's are allowed to try and tinker with making build orders, at no point am i trying to re write the meta, i use this in some of my zvt's and not in others, its not about the winning every game, its intresting seeing the can and cants of certain things, be it a build or trying to find 'new' ways of using units and its just fun to mess about, this is a game, games are for fun
ya, but being stupid for fun isn't funny for everyone.
And You are not expanding anything, your idea of a 3rd at 3.15 in ZvT is flat out stupid. You must be blind to post in this tread for so long. I talk about it before, but you didn't respond... like to anyone who made some kind of logic argument...
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Plat terran here.
I say go for the build only if you can confirm that thety are going CC before factory. I go factory then CC into 2rax raduers with a fastish stim, reactor hellions, and eventually into MMMT. I typically don't have a problem denying a fast third unless they go 6 queen with roach opener, which is really strong becasue typically there aren't enough rauders to deal with roaches, queens, and spines early on, and then later with enough roaches you can defend your 3rd pretty easily.
The biggest issue with the really fast 3rd for zerg is defense so if you do the 6 queen build make sure you can get a few spines up at your 3rd fast or it can be torn down pretty fast. If they go CC before fact that give you a little more time before hellions arrive and the transition into either hellion banshee, hellion rauder will be a little easier defended on your part. The absolute worst thing that can happen if you pay attention is you cancel hatch. a macro hatch and make units. Those 6 queens are a pain to deal with due to transfuse so at least your natural is safe. My advice is to make sure that you control your queens well if you are playing greedy like that, becasue if you defend your 3rd with 4 of them it's not too hard for hellions and raduer to retreat and hit the natural and do as much damage there.
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This is definitely a viable option, but it depends if you scout gas or not. If you do, take an early macro hatch instead and play until your a bit better defended before grabbing your 3rd.
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Sapp I coverd your mention of Creep being the only important thing in early game ect in one of my posts on the last page, and if you think its a stupid idea then you dont need to pay attention to this post, your input has been taken and creep is one of the things on the list im testing through, and again, ive never said im trying to expand anything.
Sircoolguy, thank you for the responces from Plat, ill add the MMMT to the list, ill check to see if it could be 'in time' to effect this one way or the other
Garoodah, I dont think this is a build that can be taken on the gas timings alone  plenty of gasless things that appear to pose a problem in a Masters v Masters base
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
Why not just 3 hatch before pool against terrans?
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Open third hatch before queens vs a 14 CC player. Open queens before third hatch vs a rax first player.
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On July 03 2012 02:02 amazingxkcd wrote:
Why not just 3 hatch before pool against terrans?
Because he will bunker rush you even with a CC first build.
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I think if you scout CC first from terran, you can legitimately go 3 hatch before pool. I'm not sure if its efficient or effective.
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for the 3 base before pool, the answer is no, the time winthout queens is far too long and you will find yourself with too much money and not enough larvae to spend it on so no it is not effective or efficient
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United Kingdom20291 Posts
If you are 3basing, it is actuly better to go pool-hatch-hatch than to go hatch-hatch-pool, or hatch-pool-hatch in terms of both economy and production at most timings, IIRC. It is not really plausible vs terran though because you would have to commit to pool before scouting, so hatch first then pool, double queen then third is probably "best" for that
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I can give quite a few KR Masters replays ZvT where I've been doing double expand.
Been taking 15expo sending my drone to scout and make hatchery > cancel > evo chamber to deny their CC then I drop my pool and then take a 3rd. It's down around 3:30-4:00 roughly and have yet to have any issues keeping it up or defending it since I end up with 5 total queens + a spine crawler that is made at my natural and then moved to the 3rd.
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Seen Symbol do a very interesting style that I've been quite successful with! ^^
Here's what I got on it:
13 Drone Scout (take opponents gas if 1 rax expand)
15 Hatch
16 Pool
17 Ov
Use OV to scout Terran main's gas if 1 rax or cc first (don't know the possible outcomes for what terran is doing based on gas)
30 3rd+4th Queen
34 2 Overlords
use first two queens for creep
46 3rd
45 2 gas
45 Queen
49 Queen
51 3 Overlords
51 3rd gas
---100 gas Zspeed
OV sac at 7:00
----if see aggression 1 spine
---100 Gas Lair
---bane nest
4th gas 7:30
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EPT
