EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 294
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Buckshot9044
15 Posts
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Tribuno
Italy261 Posts
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
It's not that I am saying "omg this match-up has no potential", it does, but unfortunately, it forces me to play an aggressive style or get cheesed style. | ||
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Guamshin
Netherlands295 Posts
On June 24 2012 19:53 Tribuno wrote: what an approssimative BO for the 6 queen ZvT? or some timings for gas and when to take the third at least.. 15 hatch , 16 pool, 17 overlord x2 drones then save minerals so you can get your 2 queens and 2-4 lings. Your gas timings depend on how many drones you have and how much tech you want to get, lots of players just don't know it and they rely on supply counts and game times for this. Generally you can take 1 gas when a base has 1,3 rows and the 2nd gas when you have 2 rows. Or 2 gas at the same time when the base has 2 rows of drones. Assuming you did an expansion build of course. With the build i mentioned you rely on Queens/Lings/Spines to defend, so you can delay your gas untill you have 2 rows of drones on both bases, then you get all 4 at once. To help you out a bit more with the build, most players go speed-lair and then at 150 gas 2 Evos and 1 Baneling Nest. 3rd timing i'm not sure but you usually kinda know if it's safe or not, if T went for a FE then you can usually get it pretty fast, you should be able to get it around 6:30, i recommend you to get a macro hatch early as well, i usually get mine 6:00 So take your 3rd depending on what your opponent does pretty much. | ||
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RuneZerg
Denmark90 Posts
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Anacletus
United States733 Posts
On June 24 2012 18:00 Monsyphon wrote: I've been thinking of a zvz build that lower level players can get into that is macro-orientated but still fairly safe. What came into mind was a 14 pool 16 hatch build that starts off as if it was a zvp, where you get 2 sets of lings and a queen real quick, but then from there you take a gas for ling speed and banes, and then transition into normal zvz, as Belial has just described. Does this sound like a sound idea? What are some flaws or problems with this idea right off the bat? You should experiment with build orders and see what sort of playstyle suits you. So yes, I think that you should try this build order some and see how it goes. What comes to mind as a weakness to that build is that you will have to be very defensive early before you get speed. You will not have good scouting and will be susceptible to numerous all ins, mostly one base all ins like mass speedling or bane rushes. For some more information check out liquipedia on ZvZ openers: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Openings_(vs._Zerg) | ||
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PandaGuns
United Kingdom12 Posts
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
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Cosmology
Canada360 Posts
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 25 2012 00:38 Anacletus wrote: You should experiment with build orders and see what sort of playstyle suits you. So yes, I think that you should try this build order some and see how it goes. What comes to mind as a weakness to that build is that you will have to be very defensive early before you get speed. You will not have good scouting and will be susceptible to numerous all ins, mostly one base all ins like mass speedling or bane rushes. For some more information check out liquipedia on ZvZ openers: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Openings_(vs._Zerg) Yeah, 14p/16h with gas AFTER lings pop will not have defensive banelings in time against a one-base all-in. You may not have it in time for a speedling all-in off hatch first, either. This is because you won't have speed, won't really have a ramp block (2 queens), and won't have banelings. You won't even have a spine finished at the natural because the hatch is too late. But then again, this is based off masters-level timings. Do you (monsyphon) feel like 15h 14-16p 17g (or thereabout), with 2 queens ASAP and defensive bane, is too difficult for lower level players? I feel like it has a less strict micro check than 14/14 into ling/bling war, so if anything, should be easier to practice and thus pull off successfully. | ||
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Anacletus
United States733 Posts
On June 24 2012 19:32 Buckshot9044 wrote: When are you supposed to get your 3rd base against a Terran player because I have seen a lot of pro Zergs using different styles and timings. I have been favoring a later 3rd as of late, usually going 15h17p and 3 queens with a very fast macro hatch used as a sim city in my natural to help ward off hellions. I have tried to go for a faster 3rd (7 minutes?) but I can't seem to make it work. Hellion run bys and hellion,marauder,marine timings are seemingly designed to take out the early 3rd style. Right now, as a top 25 masters, this style serves me okay but I still feel like I am not doing the most optimized build. Against a mech player,blue flame hellion run bys on my 3rd with or without additional banshee harass can really punish a early 3rd with too many drones, but there have been games where I do not go for a early 3rd, but then against a mech terran, I don't have the drone count to start trading roach armies sooner. Is 3rd base timing versus Terran based on what you think the Terran is going to do? or is just a early 3rd the "hardest but best" thing to do? I have seen DRG do later and earlier 3rd timings and would love a little insight! Thanks! When you take your third depends entirely upon your style of play. In my personal experience against terran that is going mech I find taking a slightly later third a better option than rushing one. Because the terran is going mech he is now limited to harassing with hellions or banshees. Both of these units are countered by queens, and the slow push will be much easier to handle with good creep spread. I think that taking a macro hatch before a third is also better because it gives you the larva to drone hard and can help you sim city to hold hellions easily. You can effectively stop any and all runbys with a good sim city. I think that rushing upgrades on roaches before actually making too many is also better, as staying ahead on upgrades is very important. By 2basing for a bit longer you have the small contained area so you can skimp on roach production allowing you to put the gas into upgrades. Here's a replay from a practice game against a friend who plays a banshee/hellion/thor centric mech style. I don't play perfectly, but you might get a bit more of an understanding of what I am talking about by watching. Hope this helps! http://drop.sc/144768 | ||
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Anacletus
United States733 Posts
On June 25 2012 02:27 Cosmology wrote: Where can I find the replays for either MLG Spring or Dreamhack Summer? This isn't the full set of dreamhack replays, but there still is a lot. Here you go. http://sc2rep.ru/search.php?lang=en&contest=Dreamhack Summer 2012 | ||
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Anacletus
United States733 Posts
On June 25 2012 00:39 PandaGuns wrote: What's everyone doing against the Immortal/Sentry build? I've been going Roach/Hydra since that's what I'm comfortable with, but I'm starting to lose matches with it, especially when they transition into Colossi of course. Because this push you are talking about is done off of 2 bases and requires large amounts of gas it is fairly all in. You will have a much better economy than him and because of this you can trade fairly inefficiently. When you scout this push coming you should pump just lings and roaches. The key to beating this push is to delay it and use up his force fields. You should poke and prod and attempt runbys the entire time he is headed to your base, because his army will decimate yours in a head to head fight. The longer you delay the more time you have to pump mass units to fight him in a way of attrition. Once you kill off his army you will be ahead on economy and he will be stuck on 2base unable expand and behind on tech. | ||
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
On June 25 2012 00:39 PandaGuns wrote: What's everyone doing against the Immortal/Sentry build? I've been going Roach/Hydra since that's what I'm comfortable with, but I'm starting to lose matches with it, especially when they transition into Colossi of course. Easiest way to hard counter it http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346148 I had a replay where I beat the push from yesterday but I've been laddering like a madman and can't find it right now. | ||
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Cosmology
Canada360 Posts
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BatesC
United States175 Posts
On June 25 2012 03:34 Cosmology wrote: I'm just returning after a 6 or so month break, can anyone explain to me each of Zerg's match ups and the meta for them? Also, who do people think is favored in each match up generally? Someone summed it up pretty well on the previous page. Zerg wins ZvT, Protoss wins ZvP, No one wins ZvZ. On June 24 2012 02:17 ysna Belial has good guides: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 (ZvP) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023 (ZvT) ZvT: The metagame has changed that Zergs are getting 5-6 Queens nowadays and use them primarily from any Hellion harass while spreading creep like mad and droning behind it. All metagames have been focused on end-game now, and hence why the community is vocal about it. Zerg want to get to end-game as soon as possible while Terran tries to deny that by constantly harassing and forcing resources and larvae spent on units to deal with drops and trying to end the game before the Zerg gets crazy amount of Brood Lords/Corruptors/Infestors. However, many Terrans still go Hellion, but instead of 2-4, they now mass them, some even go up to 8-12. If they go 2-4, they most likely just want to deny the creep spread as long as possible. Some even rely solely on Queens for defense, but that can be risky as the Terran can go Hellion/Marauder allin and really punish the greedy Zerg player. Some Terrans prefer Mech over bio nowadays in TvZ as they can turtle on 3-4 bases (especially on Daybreak) and just push out before Zerg reaches the end-game. Some Zergs even rush to Hive nowadays, while relying on T1 units to defend them from the Terran early-mid game onslaught. Also, since Terrans have discovered in order to keep up with the Zerg economy they have to play greedy as hell, they'll often put a third OC in their main to ramp up their SCV production. Zergs can punish a greedy Terran with a timing Ling/Bling/Roach timing attack, or just Ling/Roach if the natural ramp is too big (like Antiga's for example). Usual unit compositions are: Against bio/tank: ling/bling/muta - ling/bling/infestor Against mech: roach/ling for run-bys, but do not use too many lings as Blue Flame Hellions will rip through lings ZvP: Almost everyone goes Stephano's style, meaning, Ling/Roach max at 12mins on 3 bases (if the Protoss went FFE). Protoss can successfully rip you apart with the Immortal/Sentry allin which you MUST, again MUST engage constantly BEFORE the force reaches your third (most use Warp Prism for reinforcements, so you cannot snipe it). The reason why you must engage them before they reached your third is to force Force Fields, because they will kill you if Sentries are left unchecked. SG(Stargate) openings are also prevalent in ZvP. Usually, it is 1-2 Void Rays and 4-5 Phoenix who try to snipe your third/Queens as you do not get 5-6 Queens in ZvP. Also, many Protoss like to do early Zealot pressure on your third (as you get it as soon as you confirm that the Protoss did FFE), they send out 4-8 Zealots to snipe your third. Some Zerg players like to go pure Mutalisk/Ling, later on, just pure Mutalisk instead of Roaches, in order to pin the Protoss in his base while sniping everything you can. Usual unit compositions are: ling/roach stephano style/destiny's build ling/mutalisk ZvZ: Worst MU ever, to watch and to play. 3base Hive Ultralisk is a good build if you can survive potential allins with pure Roach/Mutalisk/Baneling busts etc, with ling/bling/infestor play, basically, you play ultra defensive until you get your first set of Ultras, while getting melee upgrades (both attack and armor) as you're rushing to Hive, getting a lot of spines at your natural and 3rd and just rush him in the end. ke wrote: | ||
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Cosmology
Canada360 Posts
On June 25 2012 03:37 BatesC wrote: Someone summed it up pretty well on the previous page. Zerg wins ZvT, Protoss wins ZvP, No one wins ZvZ. ke wrote: Thanks a lot! Does anybody think they can elaborate on the ZvZ meta? | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 25 2012 04:18 Cosmology wrote: Thanks a lot! Does anybody think they can elaborate on the ZvZ meta? 1base all ins dont happen anymore in pro play (maybe once in a blue moon). The new style that has been gaining popularity is double melee upgrades into infestors into fast hive -> ultras. It's a very defensive style where you expand slightly later than your opponent and defend with mainly spine/infestors and runbys. 3-5 ultralisks are extremely powerfull and so once maxed on mainly infestor ultra with some zerglings you can kill almost anything. Other than that muta play still exists although it's mostly figured out and the previous style pretty much hard counters it. Roach timings are the only thing that can touch it it seems. Roach infestor ofcourse still happens a ton, occasionally hydras. | ||
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Monsyphon
Canada190 Posts
On June 25 2012 02:31 6xFPCs wrote: Yeah, 14p/16h with gas AFTER lings pop will not have defensive banelings in time against a one-base all-in. You may not have it in time for a speedling all-in off hatch first, either. This is because you won't have speed, won't really have a ramp block (2 queens), and won't have banelings. You won't even have a spine finished at the natural because the hatch is too late. But then again, this is based off masters-level timings. Do you (monsyphon) feel like 15h 14-16p 17g (or thereabout), with 2 queens ASAP and defensive bane, is too difficult for lower level players? I feel like it has a less strict micro check than 14/14 into ling/bling war, so if anything, should be easier to practice and thus pull off successfully. I tried to get into that build, 15 hatch, and I always ended up getting run over by any sort of early game aggression. This is probably because i have no idea what to do after the initial food counts. | ||
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