EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 296
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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err
54 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 26 2012 00:14 err wrote: Can someone post some replays of holding 7 pool spine crawler rush in zvz both while 14/14ing and 15 hatching? I don't have replays but to give you an idea, you hold this rush if you make sure the spines dont start untill the lings arrive. I've heard it's possible to hold with 15 hatch but I've only ever heard about it, never done it (unless my opponent is awful, which they usually are when they 7pool) | ||
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Broesl
Austria75 Posts
On June 26 2012 00:14 err wrote: Can someone post some replays of holding 7 pool spine crawler rush in zvz both while 14/14ing and 15 hatching? This Guide should help : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295586 | ||
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err
54 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 26 2012 00:30 Clarity_nl wrote: I don't have replays but to give you an idea, you hold this rush if you make sure the spines dont start untill the lings arrive. I've heard it's possible to hold with 15 hatch but I've only ever heard about it, never done it (unless my opponent is awful, which they usually are when they 7pool) Yeah it's possible to hold with hatch first, but it's really awkward sometimes. You have to cancel the hatch, but then your pool is delayed and as are your lings. On the bright side, you should have 16-17 drones (which is more than the usual 15 you'll have with a gas/pool build). If you misread the situation and overcommit to defense against a 10 pool "early ling pressure", you end up quite a bit behind - that's why a lot of players send a drone scout when they hatch first, because they can determine whether it's all-in or whether the opponent is droning behind it. | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On June 26 2012 01:45 gronnelg wrote: Is there a guide to zvz out there? Like a comprehensive guide. Otherwise, some solid zvz builds? Thanks I see very few quality ZvZ guides. This is a build I've been using with quite a bit of success: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310142 The point of the guide is to be as aggressive as possible, but keep in mind the opening is very safe, and your approach to midgame can be geared more towards macro if you choose. For a more macro-oriented midgame, get a spine around 31 (use your speedlings to scout and determine whether you need more than 1 spine) and start droning and getting evo chambers/roach warren/lair. | ||
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Anacletus
United States733 Posts
On June 26 2012 01:45 gronnelg wrote: Is there a guide to zvz out there? Like a comprehensive guide. Otherwise, some solid zvz builds? Thanks liquipedia has a lot of great information for you to peruse at your leisure. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/General_ZvZ_Strategy There are also some really great Day9 episodes out about ZvZ. http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-slush-s-zvz-5279557 http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-165-zergling-baneling-opening-in-zvz-4018963 http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-250-top-korean-zvz-4721433 I hope this stuff helps, good luck in your laddering endeavors! | ||
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Kraelog
Belgium194 Posts
On June 25 2012 21:52 Anacletus wrote: You can metagame and do a 15gas/15pool/15hatch mass speedling build and get into grandmaster because of the metagame. That does not however mean you'll be very good. The more reliant on assumptions (metagame) you make your playstyle, the worse off you'll be when it a shifts or when you get metagamed yourself. Metagaming is about winning. Mechanics are about improving. I think that sums up my point very well. + Show Spoiler + I mean that quite literally, I have a friend in top GM (<16) from cheese alone As I said, I do agree with your point. But winning is fun :p | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On June 26 2012 04:10 Anacletus wrote: liquipedia has a lot of great information for you to peruse at your leisure. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/General_ZvZ_Strategy There are also some really great Day9 episodes out about ZvZ. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz5CMgbqCZY http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-slush-s-zvz-5279557 http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-165-zergling-baneling-opening-in-zvz-4018963 http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-250-top-korean-zvz-4721433 I hope this stuff helps, good luck in your laddering endeavors! Those are some really old dailies. I remember the one base zvz roach build and the slush ling/infestor strategy. #165 is from August 2010... Here's a zvz daily from a couple months ago: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-443-p1-liquidsheth-vs-mstephano-6081999 . Anyway, to answer the original OP, there isn't really a comprehensive guide, per se, but there are some great guides for general strategies. Tang linked his guide. His build is very aggressive offering multiple opportunities to go all in or play a longer macro game. His build is good if you like putting on pressure, but not so good if you prefer a more passive macro style. Where openers are concerned, most players cheese, 15 hatch, or 14/14. Belial wrote a guide about defending 6 pool, but he also provides details from another poster who wrote about executing them http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295586. I'm not sure about good 14/14 guides, but the general build is a 14/14 speedling expand at 21 and applying light-medium pressure on your opponent. There's the baneling all-in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330129¤tpage=1, but it stops working around diamond/low masters since it has a simple, yet unintuitive counter. Here's a guide for hatch first versus 14/14 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583 ...even though it's an older guide Blade updated it a few weeks ago and the opener works to the current metagame. I didn't search any 10pool guides, but if you want to put on a ton of early pressure I'd either go with Tang's build or a 6pool. Every so often you see a 1 base roach play, but it is inefficient in light of the current metagame. There are three primary midgame strategies: roaches, mutas, or ling/infestor. Roach play is most "standard", but there aren't many guides on it. However, it hasn't changed dramatically in the last 6 months, so I'd peruse these http://www.teamliquidpro.com/replays and steal some builds http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-285-newbie-tuesday-stealing-a-build-5034680. That last daily is a year old, but it teaches a practice-based method of stealing a pro build. The current trend is either getting a lot of roach/infestor or heavy roach/hydra and adding infestors at the end. For muta play: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298943 . There's a really good guide to muta play circulating the internet, but I couldn't find it with several google searches. Muta strategies were really popular last fall and the rough build itself hasn't changed much: take 2 base, get 4 gasses with lair, use spines to repel all-ins, harass with mutas, take a third during harass, and transition to either muta/ling/bane or roach/infestor or whatever the hell you want. It took roach players a long time to adapt, but as evident in this thread there are responses to the streategy http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336279. The latest metagame zvz craze is ling/infestor/ultra. Blade wrote a guide about two weeks ago: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344989 . Roach players and muta players are having a hard time figuring this out. On the one hand, learning this strategy could be great, especially to a lower leaguer, since it's an early/mid/late game strategy. On the other hand, you might suck at zvz and have a 70% win rate against better players because they don't know how to respond. This changes when the response is eventually figured out. With all openers and general strategies mechanics like droning, scouting, injecting, and hitting overlords are crucial to the matchup. Scouting is a tremendous asset in zvz since, at any point, your opponent can go all-in. Scouting 3 gas usually indicates an incoming roach all-in while quick 4gas can be muta or fast infestors. I'm high plat and can't put much stock in anything except a direct scout since most of my opponent's builds make no sense. Having a good game plan is definitely your best asset and I think there's enough here to get you in the right direction | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Hatch First (14/14 these days is just too far behind, some people are going 14pool/16hatch because you won't autolose to 9/10/11 pools, but you will lose, probably autolose, against 14/14 with reactive ling/bane all-in.... so just hatch first with double queen on hold position at the ramp until you morph 4 banelings after going 2 queen+equal lings you see stream out of opponents base with overlord at his natural into spine in main that's walked to natural, speed, banelings. Drone up, but if the opponent hasn't expanded when your queens pop, don't inject, since your primary method of defense is ramp block with 2 queens and transfusing the spine, your banelings will finish with a speed, baneling before he can make 6+ banes to 1 shot your spine) Spine, Speed, Baneling nest, 4 banelings (cutting these or delaying these are just being greedy, I recommend you don't try to cut or delay this unless you REALLY know what you are doing, ie you dont need this guide) You will hold any ling/bane aggression easily with 4 pre-morphed banes, and more reactionary banes if opponent streams out lings. Any roach all-in is lol, you react same as if it's ling/bane aggression but it's easier, maybe make a 2nd spine and less banes, but whatever, no one does it for a reason ~40 evo, +1 Scout for a roach/ling all-in. You should have moved that overlord in his nat, to behind his mineral line or by his natural's gas, like in ZvP. If he hasn't taken any additional gas, or his drone count is anything but overflowing (like your should be), then that's a clear sign of a roach/ling all-in. You should follow-up with a ling scout, any roaches made before taking a third is indicative of a roach/ling all-in. Additional factors are lots of units made, et cetera... Basically, if he hasn't taken a third or lair by 50 supply, it's an all-in and go 2 base lair with lots of spines, and win, but you can't take a third, and it's not a good idea to make roaches because he's been making them for the last 5 minutes and will have way more than you. ~50 roach warren, 2nd gas, third base (cut roach warren and third if he's all-inning though) 55+ 3rd gas, lair, drones. You can delay gas and lair depending on how greedy you want to be. Now react to what he's doing. If he takes double gas at nat and no third by now, he's doing 2 base infestor or 2 base muta. You can confirm 2 base infestor by seeing double evo (usually put as a wall-in, too). Against both, you want infestors asap, but against muta, you will need up to 6-8 queens, and a spore at main and third and maybe some more. Your anti-muta strength is your queens transfusing spores - you dont want pure spore, you dont want pure queen. Dont drone up third until you see opponent take his third, and then only mildly drone it up. Vs mutas, get infestors on 3 base then take a fourth using your infestors and queens and creep spread, and burrow. Make sure to pressure in case he goes straight hive. Vs infestor/ling, dont make any more roaches and just get a fourth with the roaches you have, and lots of lings now with double evo, hive, and a quicker ultralisk den than he gets. vs standard fast third play opponents who are doing the same thing, you dont get infestors or you will DIE to roach/hydra. You need to max out on roach/hydra - push out around 160-180 depending on when the opponent is teching (you want to hit when his infestors are popping out 1 by 1, so you are killing off his roach army when his infestors pop) and reinforce with roaches as you take your fourth. But anyways, get your infestors when maxed, as well as hive for 3/3 (dont start spire, you cant rush BL tech that quickly) on 4 bases. Start spire around when hive finishes, and slowly add broodlords and lots of back and forth aggression. The more infestors you make, the more vulnerable you are to broodlords (since broodlords actually own infestors - once you have about 12+ broodlords, infestors can't get close to them anymore, and 15+ broodlords just owns any number of infestors). But the less infestors you have, the more mass roach counterattacks and mobility will own you, so you need to balance your infestor to broodlord teching to what your opponent is doing (eg go mass broodlord if he has mass infestor, but go for more roach aggression if he has less infestors). The new 2 base lair infestor into 3 base ultra is a weird new style, but blade5555 has a guide on it. Like other match-ups, the endgame goal in ZvZ is broodlords, but you really want to go past broodlord/infestor, into pure broodlord/corruptor with just 1-2 infestors only. Most maps dont have enough mining bases for the game to get to that stage (daybreak and shakuras are the only ones i think), but just fyi. | ||
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morlakaix
United States860 Posts
One question I have right now is that in ZvP the roach/ling fast 3 base is pretty easy to go against a protoss unless he harasses(but I can scout that pretty easily), but in ZvT I am very confused with when I am supposed to take a third. When watch pro games and streams, the common thing I saw was a third being taken around 10:30~. I like to play ling/infestor and barely use roaches(unless I am cheesing) Is a 10 minute third base in ZvT standard? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Check out my ZvT guide here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023 Also, ZvT is in a huge flux right now, there isn't really a stable BO yet, but it seems right now, it's safe to say that if Terran goes 1 rax FE/CC First, you can take a third from 40-50 supply (if he goes any later expo, like reactor hellion, you can't take your third that quickly, or at least not with only queens). You can check out the GSL or MLG for examples of how to open in ZvT, but basically it's 1 gas for speed 20-30 or gasless, 4-6 queens, 2xgas total 50 supply, 3rd hatch 40-50 supply (sometimes a macro hatch if terran went like reactor hellion or 1 base banshee rush). If he's one basing, you need to know by 40 supply (ie no expo by 40 supply), at which point you should start making spines, banes, and an evo chamber and 4 queens. | ||
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morlakaix
United States860 Posts
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eXeel
Denmark62 Posts
Should I focus on troops earlier to play more aggressive, or is that a choice of play style? Winning with earlier attacks where I attack before droning up, seems on my gold/ level easier, but I don't get to practise my macro that way. Yeah I guess, but nor my expanding and getting the upper hand economically | ||
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silentdecay01
United States106 Posts
I notice the zerg ones listed are out of date vs the new queen patch, Whats a good build order, can someone link me a guide to tvz that the korean terrans use? Also updated versions of what terran is doing vs toss. Just want to play like the Kor terrans have been thanks. | ||
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whatevername
471 Posts
edit: Whats a reliable opening build order in zvp that goes towards mutaling? | ||
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ErrorNA
United States86 Posts
There is a GM level Zerg doing free weekly tutorial VODs with in-depth analysis. Intimate ZvX with Stoic. Because of his VODs i have reached high masters and won a very small local tourney. he also has a video on holding a 10 pool drone all in. with 15 hatch 17 pool. gl hf! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
My zerg is all about macroing and winning the mid-long games, but is it wrong of me to not go early attacks more often? Normally I go for 2 bases before creating an army and while that builds I secure a third and then a battle is inevitable. Should I focus on troops earlier to play more aggressive, or is that a choice of play style? Winning with earlier attacks where I attack before droning up, seems on my gold/ level easier, but I don't get to practise my macro that way. Yeah I guess, but nor my expanding and getting the upper hand economically My average game length according to sc2gears is 22:52 long. You aren't doing anything wrong with not going for early attacks - as darkforce said best in this thread, you just have to accept that with zerg, attacking anytime before 70+ drones on 3 base is somewhat all-in. My advice to you - focus on defending all-ins. If you hold, THEN is a great time for aggression. I also think you aren't looking at the game right. It's about denying expos, and taking more yourself. So if you defend an all-in, make just enough army to deny the opponent from expanding, and then tech up (no need expand since you are already ahead on the econ front, check out the ETA guide, very good stuff in terms of understanding the game, its linked my in ZVP guide in the "Avoiding stupid losses" section). Attacking early with zerg won't really work anymore at the higher levels. Zerg all-ins are just so damn weak (there are some cute all-ins vs ffe and fast third terran though) ;/ How do you reliably scout a 3 OC build, and what should the standard response to that be? i.e should I make my standard reply a roach/baneling bust or take my third before the more standard 9:30-10 mark? Sac your overlord at 30 instead of 40, per my ZvT guide (read it if you haven't already). If you see a third started with that overlord, you can cancel your 3rd and 4th queen, and go for the roach/bane all-in and almost autowin (if you deny scouting, def autowin, and its very hard to hold even if they know its coming if they go fast third). The drawback to sac'cing an overlord at 30 instead of 40, is that you won't know terrans follow-up to his 1 rax fe/ cc first build, say banshees or marauder/hellion stim timing. But some terrans will put their Cc in a dumb spot - like on daybreak, on the left side of their main, which is where I hide my initial overlord by going around where their natural gas is and then around the back airspace, or if they make it part of their wall-off, and so you can reactively roach bane all-in without having to put yourself at a lack of information by sac'cing an overlord too early. Although, it's never a bad idea just to peak to maybe see a fast third at 30 supply, and then sac it at 40. edit: Whats a reliable opening build order in zvp that goes towards mutaling? 2 base muta is semi-all-in and not a very good build, but there's one. Otherwise, you just have to accept that you can't go mutalisks without roach/ling at the start. Think of it like utlras - you cant rush ultras without a ground army to keep you safe while you tech up. Any toss gateway timing will kill you if you skip roaches, so there are 2 ways to go mutas: 1. blindly and hope he doesnt do any type of gateway timing 2. when your overseer realizes he has 4-5 gates instead of 6-8 gates Check out the "Nestea anti-immortal sentry zvp" thread though, it talks about trying to rush mutas. The conclusion is that you can't, but it's still worth checking out. if you see toss take gas from a FFE, you still have to throw down a roach warren, but if your overseer confirms they aren't allinning (less than 6 gates), then you can maybe cut out roach speed and upgrades for quicker mutas. Also, blindly going mutas with no roaches, and honestly going mutas, is a difference of about a minute, so I recommend in ZvP just prepare for a normal game, and then with an overseer, you see his gateway count so you can make the right choice of tech vs army. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
he also has a video on holding a 10 pool drone all in. with 15 hatch 17 pool. You aren't supposed to pull every drone, you are supposed to pull 8 of 12 drones. The 10 pooler also chased the guy's drones well after he denied mining. He could have easily put up his 2 spines once the drones left and he was in the base, and he wasn't rallying reinforcing lings, which is what closes the game, as he's mining but you aren't. he also put a spine down early, that he allowed to get focused (you are supposed to put with when lings arrive, not like he did where drones can kill it off). It's a cute hold, but what he did does not work. It only works if the 10 pooler is bad ;/ I have seen one way to hold a 10 pool 8 of 12 drones pulled, and that's by reacting to the single spine with double spines, but I'm not sure if it always works, and i dont think it works well if the opponent does 10 pool baneling (the other autowin 10 pool build). | ||
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