• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:57
CEST 09:57
KST 16:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy2Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3
Community News
Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)6BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13
StarCraft 2
General
Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2) The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation How herO can make history in the Code S S2 finals TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group A [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group B RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 4 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 3
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Who’s Getting the Effortless-Chic Look Just Right?
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
NHL Playoffs 2024 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 27904 users

[G][H] Muta ZvZ

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
sivadnivek
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States45 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-29 20:08:13
December 29 2011 17:29 GMT
#1
Hi TL! This is my first guide, and I basically want to just get down some of my thoughts on what I think is a superiour ZvZ style. I'm a platinum player who often gets matched up with low/mid tier diamond. I find that against these diamond players, I win very frequently in the ZvZ matchup with my strategy. However, I do struggle quite a bit in the ZvP matchup especially. Regardless, I'd like to touch on some critical points of my strat, and then add some thoughts for various stages of the game. So, my strat is more or less as follows:

Open aggressively. Especially on larger maps, players will be tempted to do one of two things mostly in ZvZ. Players will often 6-10 pool to get a meta-advantage on the second most likely option, which is a FE. So to account for both of these possibilities, I open aggressively with 14 gas 14 pool baneling play. This allows for me to establish a quick expansion (~21 supply) and also gain an economic advantage by microing properly with baneling ling. Also, if I open in this way I'm not vulnerable to 6 pools, 8 pools, 10 pools -- whatever fast pool strat my opponent uses.

Mid-game tech behind your aggressive open. This is a part of my strategy that needs a little more thought, admittedly. I generally strive for a 7:30 - 9:00 lair, depending upon how my aggression is going (and when I remember lol). Sadly, most of the games I lose are lost here. Either my opponent pushes while I tech too quickly, or s/he takes advantage of my late teching and gets out fast mutas of their own. I tend to find that when one player gets more mutas faster, that player wins. Thus, my mid-game strategy is to get out mutas as safely as possible, but also as quickly as possible. Finding the balance here can be quite challenging.

Mid- to late-game harassment. Keeping the muta count high is seemingly the most important thing to do in this stage of the game. Also, upgrades are extremely helpful here. Another objective in this game stage is to get up more expansions (safely, carefully though) than your opponent. This is where I find myself floating minerals and like to build lots of extra lings for mobility and also spine crawlers to prevent suicide roach/hydra/infestor attacks. But, it's important not to lose sight of the fact that this is where a lot of damage can be done. All overlords on the map should be killed at this point, all expansions scouted for, and then finally it's really easy to pick off extraneous gasses at various expansions of the opponent's. This picking off of gasses puts you way ahead in your mutalisk to mutalisk count, or your muta to hydra count.

Late game, whatever. Here is where you've already won the game, and can go towards whatever kind of lategame you like. I find myself playing against hydra roach A LOT. I'm not sure why I don't see a lot of diamond players going for this composition, as opposed to faster and more infestors, but for me the easy counter is getting up a good bane/ling count and attacking with the intention of my ground army just killing hydras/infestors, and then mutas cleaning up. Granted this choice is one that you'll have to make on the fly, just in a responsive way to your opponent's tech choices. banes can also effectively devastate mineral lines in this stage of the game, especially if your opponent went for some kind of roach/infestor play and is less mobile than you. Do something like pull their infestors away with harrass then suicide ~15 banes to kill many, many drones elsewhere. The key to lategame for me is to stay mobile with my whole army, however hunkering down once you've secured your marginal advantage can also be a good move.

This style works very well for me, but I'd love to hear your [critical] input.
Ok, well, that's about it from me. I'll post one replay with this, and maybe edit in a few later once I find them. Please give me your comments on both substantive matters, and also on the format of this brief guide! Thanks a lot.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/16685
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/16686

I'm gEnKiipUucHu.266 please add me with questions or for some games! Also, I stream pretty frequently on this site (although I think it's been disabled from the non-featured section even) as "sivadnivek"
agahamsorr0w
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands359 Posts
December 29 2011 17:38 GMT
#2
3rd muta guide for zvz or something. You didn't mention that armor for mutas are more valuable, though it costs more. Ling upgrades are also very helpful to keep the base advantage. If you have already won the game in the late game then your opponent is doing something wrong...
Isomer
Profile Joined November 2010
United States186 Posts
December 29 2011 19:22 GMT
#3
1. 14g14p is not an aggressive opening in ZvZ. It's actually the safest opening because you are safe against early pools (6-8) and slightly early pools (10-12).
2. 6-8 pools are actually not advantages against 15hatches who have proper decision making, as shown in a recent guide on TL. It is actually an even battle if you cancel the hatchery and use your drones to defend your morphing pool, considering you will have 15+ drones to fight with and he will only have 6 zerglings initially.
3. "7:30-9:00 or whenever I remember lol" is not a good Lair timing. If you are going mutas, you should strive to get your Lair slightly after your opponent, because mutalisks thrive when you are playing with an economic lead. This is because they stack really nicely and they are very fast, so the more of them you have the more cost efficient they can be. Furthermore, the chance of losing them to infestors is lessened if your opponent is behind because he will need to drone up or tech and risk losing to an all-in before infestors.

Think your play could use some refinement! There are some really good guides out there by blade, dApollo, chanmanV, MrBitter, and others which might help you on your quest for ZvP improvement. Personally, I go roach-ling and early 3rd (against FFE) and then go for quick hive tech (as opposed to mutas).
There's nothing cooler than being proud of what you love
sivadnivek
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States45 Posts
December 29 2011 19:29 GMT
#4
Thanks guys! @Isomer, I wasn't suggesting using mutas in ZvP, I agree with your suggestion. Also the 3."7:30-9:00 or whenever I remember lol" is admittedly the weakest part of this style of play for me. I like the idea to get it slightly after them, as yes economy is the most vital part of this play style.
Kaien
Profile Joined August 2011
Belgium178 Posts
December 29 2011 19:41 GMT
#5
on maps like meta and anitga, you should not go for muta but instead take a fast third and go roach/hydra.
it will practicly win evry time over muta
sivadnivek
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States45 Posts
December 29 2011 20:27 GMT
#6
@Kaien what are you basing that on? I don't mean to disagree directly, but you should check out that first replay; and I'm just wondering what your thought process is on that. Now granted, in that replay, neither me nor my opponent is playing anywhere near perfectly, perhaps not even that well.
sivadnivek
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States45 Posts
December 29 2011 20:28 GMT
#7
Also, Kaien, the thing about what I tried to outline above is that I don't let my opponent take a fast third, I keep the bane/ling pressure on them until I am comfortably ahead
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
00:00
OSC Elite Rising Star #15
TBD vs ArTLIVE!
Liquipedia
Replay Cast
00:00
uThermal 2v2 Circuit: May
Liquipedia
OSC
21:00
Mid Season Playoffs
ArT vs ReBellioN
HonMonO vs Ziomek
Shameless vs LunaSea
MilkiCow vs GgMaChine
Moja vs HiGhDrA
Jumy vs TBD
Demi vs NightPhoenix
Solar vs Cham
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Livibee 235
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 1003
Mong 321
Leta 239
ToSsGirL 229
TY 217
Nal_rA 143
JulyZerg 135
GoRush 55
Yoon 14
Backho 10
[ Show more ]
Noble 10
ivOry 9
Dota 2
420jenkins336
XcaliburYe172
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K730
Other Games
C9.Mang01273
Happy308
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream5298
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 61
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH296
• LUISG 18
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota299
League of Legends
• Stunt577
• HappyZerGling111
Other Games
• Scarra1459
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Invitational
3h 3m
HiGhDrA vs Nicoract
MaNa vs HiGhDrA
HiGhDrA vs Reynor
Nicoract vs Reynor
MaNa vs Nicoract
MaNa vs Reynor
MaxPax vs Spirit
Krystianer vs Spirit
OSC
5h 3m
BSL 2v2 ProLeague S3
11h 3m
Korean StarCraft League
19h 3m
SOOP
1d 1h
sOs vs Percival
CranKy Ducklings
1d 2h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 3h
Cheesadelphia
1d 7h
CSO Cup
1d 9h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 10h
Hawk vs UltrA
Sziky vs spx
TerrOr vs JDConan
[ Show More ]
GSL Code S
2 days
Rogue vs herO
Classic vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
BSL: ProLeague
2 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
Cross vs Doodle
MadiNho vs Dragon
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
5 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Serral vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.