EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 243
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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Macpo
453 Posts
On April 25 2012 23:12 Belial88 wrote: I mean, it's pretty common knowledge that hatch first > pool first > 10 pool > hatch first, and that 10 pool is not too standard, while the other two are. With this coinflip element though, pool first like 14/14 is viable if you suspect a 10 pool, but assuming what's most common and standard, hatch first is the better build to go with unless metagaming is a factor, like in a best of series. It's not hard logic to understand. Man, it's not so much about the build, I don't really care about whether hatch first is better or not vs gas first. Or at least it's not the point. Maybe I am wrong, I am fine with that, no big deal. The problem is more about the way you assume things, which is extraordinarily annoying. Why can't you just say something like : "hmm, here I am not sure I agree with you, maybe I am wrong, but in my experience, I often fall behind when doing this or that" ? Is this so complicated? instead of making huge claims which, by the way, often prove to be incorrect in some way, or imprecise, if not just false. Sorry for adding too much for this debate  I stop here, but felt I had to give one reply  | ||
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Geng
Sweden3 Posts
I'm having some troubles with the ZvT matchup, high plat, EU. I´ll explain my situation, I feel like I have to get roaches early because helions (which most terrans my level seem to get) seem to just obliterate my zerglings and banelings. If I go mass roaches however that seems to be very weak when facing a transition into tank marine medivac and possibly marauders. I also have major problems with marine medivac drops at my expansions, sunkens seem to offer little resistance to these drops. Therefor I feel like I need to have mutalisks to control the air space. I supose you could use infestors but I feel that I'm to bad to control them optimaly and there for I think mutalisks would be more cost-effective. Anyway, this leads to me using some kind of zergling/baneling/roach/infestor/mutalisk composition most games. I feel this is very scattered and not very optimal at all. How should I restrict myself? What upgrades (if any) should I get if I want to save gas for mutalisks? Any advice/replays offered is appriciated! | ||
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Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
How would you play ling/infestor style, is 2 base and delayd third only way to get it work? imo ling/infestor style is still pretty strong, with early upgrades it doesnt have any problems against any timing attacks, I feel like only thing what can hurt is very fast high templars with storm and collosus, but you can pretty much counter collosus with corruptors and all this lead to very nice late game with broodlords, infestor, lings and awesome ground upgrades. I would like to hear your opinions on this style | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On April 26 2012 01:12 Roynalf wrote: What is everyones opinion on ling/infestor style on ZvP, did it "die" just cuz neutral parasite range nerf? How would you play ling/infestor style, is 2 base and delayd third only way to get it work? imo ling/infestor style is still pretty strong, with early upgrades it doesnt have any problems against any timing attacks, I feel like only thing what can hurt is very fast high templars with storm and collosus, but you can pretty much counter collosus with corruptors and all this lead to very nice late game with broodlords, infestor, lings and awesome ground upgrades. I would like to hear your opinions on this style Only works if your opponent doesn't know what a colossus is until you can get ultras out, and even then you'll need great upgrades. | ||
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Buckshot9044
15 Posts
On April 25 2012 21:10 Belial88 wrote: what league are you in? I think the problem is less units 'denying' your third, and more about you taking your third late or not droning up correctly or making units wayyyy too early. Toss can't do anything to deny your third. If anything, they can pressure you and maybe kill you for droning too hard after taking your third, but they can never deny your third. That's why fast third is the standard response against any sort of expand play Toss does, because you can hold *anything*. Contrast that, to say, fast third CC in TvZ, which is just about a bo loss to roach/bane all-in. Toss can only do a 4 gate +1 timing from FFE if he has no gas in nat. Check his nat, if he has no gas, throw down a roach warren at 6:30 (7:00 at absolute latest). A spine is helpful in buying a good crucial 20 seconds too, even if it isn't finished when his push initially arrives (3 zealots can't kill a spine instantly). Post a rep. I can't imagine you are macro'ing properly if this is a problem. Are you getting your third at 25-35? Are you at at least 60 supply by the 8:00 mark? You can check out my guide at: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 That should really tell you everything. Thanks a lot your guide was exactly what i was looking for. I know the build orders of the fast 3rd hatch but being new to the zerg party (I just got a second account to play zerg and went to masters in 2 days) I don't know all the specifics yet about toss timings. I see that at the highest level toss seem to be doing these timings less and less because players like DRG can crush them every time because he knows the game perfectly. Your guide should help me a lot ^^ | ||
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Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
On April 26 2012 01:15 KimJongChill wrote: Only works if your opponent doesn't know what a colossus is until you can get ultras out, and even then you'll need great upgrades. Do you think that ultras are the way to go instead of broodlords? | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On April 26 2012 01:52 Roynalf wrote: Do you think that ultras are the way to go instead of broodlords? Absolutely not. Broodlord infestor is the only way to ever deal with the cost effectiveness of late game toss colossus/stalker/archon/mothership. Sure, ultra/ling/bane can work, but only if you've practically won the game from an economic standpoint and just want to throw units at toss. | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
I failed to check the front of his wall to see a chrono on his gateway for the hint of chrono'd zealot festivities so that's a mistake, but the 2 void rays always comes as a huge surprise to me. He pooled all of his gas in those two void rays and the of the minerals in the zealots. I feel as if I had perfectly held off his push I'd completely roll over him in tech in the game. So where else have I gone wrong here? I think my description of the way I scouted is fairly accurate so you guys can take it word for word. My Lair finishes late into 8 min mark, although I'm sure it should have finished around 7:45 - 8:00. From there I guess I should have morphed an overseer and double checked, and then with lightning reflexes throw down 2 spores at my third and work around those while I gather queens to the third as my roaches rally there. Is that the best way to handle that? My opponents are low and mid masters, so are there any macro perks I can try to take advantage of? For example, I slaughtered some nerds after they pushed my third with just a quick max with roach hydra and a moved even against 2 colossus. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On April 25 2012 23:21 NrGmonk wrote: Strategy aside, this is a common problem for you, belial. You admit you're wrong a lot, yet you say things with such conviction that for people who don't know any better, they think you're stating what's generally accepted. It's like the misinformed leading the uniformed, which is the most annoying thing on these forums for me. Most people don't have the time or don't want to spend the effort to correct you and when they do you get defensive and respond with page long posts that are impossible to respond to. Many many people have brought this up, including me and yet you don't seem to change. In the future, before posting, consider using "I think" or "In my experience" or "It seems" in your posts. I agree with this. Belial, the entire context of your post is completely different if you go from saying, "Hatch first gasless in ZvZ? That's a terrible idea, that would never work!" to saying "Hatch first gasless in ZvZ? That SEEMS like a terrible idea to me from my ZvZ experience. Could you provide a replay?" ----- I have recently rediscovered the awesomeness of roach/bane drop zvp. I almost always coordinate attacks into his army with bane drops at his main/nat/third (if he has one), and Tosses at low masters seem unable so far to multitask enough to that extent. I do think though, at higher levels, a player scouting me going roach bane drop would have a cannon in each mineral line... | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On April 26 2012 02:07 Snuggles wrote: Hey guys, a certain push in ZvP has been screwing me over the past few days. It comes around 9 - 10 min at my third. It basically consists of 2 void rays and stupid amounts of zealots. When I goto scout around 6 or 6:30 min mark I check for an early third or 4th gas for stargate play, I don't see any so I assume that there's going to be gateway army with blink or an immortal at that point. My ovie would only last for so long so I never get to see the hidden stargate. I failed to check the front of his wall to see a chrono on his gateway for the hint of chrono'd zealot festivities so that's a mistake, but the 2 void rays always comes as a huge surprise to me. He pooled all of his gas in those two void rays and the of the minerals in the zealots. I feel as if I had perfectly held off his push I'd completely roll over him in tech in the game. So where else have I gone wrong here? I think my description of the way I scouted is fairly accurate so you guys can take it word for word. My Lair finishes late into 8 min mark, although I'm sure it should have finished around 7:45 - 8:00. From there I guess I should have morphed an overseer and double checked, and then with lightning reflexes throw down 2 spores at my third and work around those while I gather queens to the third as my roaches rally there. Is that the best way to handle that? My opponents are low and mid masters, so are there any macro perks I can try to take advantage of? For example, I slaughtered some nerds after they pushed my third with just a quick max with roach hydra and a moved even against 2 colossus. Part of the difficulty with scouting toss is that 2 gas can mean gateway all-in, 4 gate zealot into a more gas heavy transition, or a zealot voidray attack. This is why I blindly throw down an evo at the same time as my warren. An overseer scout won't be in time to see the stargate shenanigans, so your best bet would probably be to sac an ovie (what is the standard time, around 7?), and then I suppose hopefully spotting the voids with ovies or lings or towers. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On April 26 2012 02:07 Snuggles wrote: I failed to check the front of his wall to see a chrono on his gateway for the hint of chrono'd zealot festivities so that's a mistake, but the 2 void rays always comes as a huge surprise to me. He pooled all of his gas in those two void rays and the of the minerals in the zealots. I feel as if I had perfectly held off his push I'd completely roll over him in tech in the game. So where else have I gone wrong here? I think my description of the way I scouted is fairly accurate so you guys can take it word for word. My Lair finishes late into 8 min mark, although I'm sure it should have finished around 7:45 - 8:00. From there I guess I should have morphed an overseer and double checked, and then with lightning reflexes throw down 2 spores at my third and work around those while I gather queens to the third as my roaches rally there. Right well, failing to check the front of his wall to see the gateway chronos and (more importantly) the early +1 weapons for zealots on his forge is pretty bad since that's like, your only real indicator of some sort of zealot/VR timing (I personally find the gas count to be unreliable with this timing, since you can go single SG off of 2 gas in main and no gas in nat. Now when you 3 hatch --> Lair against FFE, you need to check the forge out for the early +1 weapons at around 5:30-6:00 or so. This should immediately trigger you to throw down an earlier warren (I'd throw mine down at 6 min or so) and you can delay your evo till 7 min. You should be at around 60+ drones, depending on how good your macro was, and you should, immediately upon completion of the queen at your third, start a 2nd queen there. You always do this regardless of the Toss' build, since the extra queen is a safety net against VRs, and also helps with creep. Once the VRs are spotted, you can start spore production. I'd make a spore at the third and a spore at my main just to be safe if I scouted an early +1 weapons. You hold off the timing with queens, spores, and roaches. Please kite your roaches backwards against zealots, and transfuse with queens. A little micro goes a long way. Any higher level players feel free to add to this, since I don't have TOO much experience with the 7-8 min zealot VR timing. It's a pretty outdated timing though, when it came out it was taking advantage of zergs literally refusing to make early roaches because of the prospected downside to our income it would cause. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On April 24 2012 23:46 Anacletus wrote: ZvZ: 14 gas 14 pool 15 hatch You can't 15hatch if you're opening 1414. Either 15h15p or 1414 and expansion at 20-21. | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
On April 26 2012 02:17 Flonomenalz wrote: Right well, failing to check the front of his wall to see the gateway chronos and (more importantly) the early +1 weapons for zealots on his forge is pretty bad since that's like, your only real indicator of some sort of zealot/VR timing (I personally find the gas count to be unreliable with this timing, since you can go single SG off of 2 gas in main and no gas in nat. Now when you 3 hatch --> Lair against FFE, you need to check the forge out for the early +1 weapons at around 5:30-6:00 or so. This should immediately trigger you to throw down an earlier warren (I'd throw mine down at 6 min or so) and you can delay your evo till 7 min. You should be at around 60+ drones, depending on how good your macro was, and you should, immediately upon completion of the queen at your third, start a 2nd queen there. You always do this regardless of the Toss' build, since the extra queen is a safety net against VRs, and also helps with creep. Once the VRs are spotted, you can start spore production. I'd make a spore at the third and a spore at my main just to be safe if I scouted an early +1 weapons. You hold off the timing with queens, spores, and roaches. Please kite your roaches backwards against zealots, and transfuse with queens. A little micro goes a long way. Any higher level players feel free to add to this, since I don't have TOO much experience with the 7-8 min zealot VR timing. It's a pretty outdated timing though, when it came out it was taking advantage of zergs literally refusing to make early roaches because of the prospected downside to our income it would cause. Thanks, the second queen at the third immediately is probably the key thing here for me, I never thought of that usually once I see those 2 VRs roll in I just throw my arms up in surrender. I don't always fail to scout for his +1 but when I do I get pushed with a zealot/VR timing @_@ and I do heavily rely on gas timings for my scouting ovie so you hit the nail on the head there sherlock  . When is exactly the standard timing for +1 for a blink push or a just a large gateway push? Because if I think about it, it seems that I can just keep having my ling at his front going in and out @5:30, 6:00, 6:30, 7:00, etc. When I check his front for chronos on the forge and gateway I never consciously do it with the timing in mind. It's always "Oh he's chronoing +1, I guess I should make a few roaches to be safe and then get back to droning til I'm saturated." Doing so I never get into the mindset of putting down an earlier roach warren and delayed evo =(, when obviously I could be getting more out of my macro by reacting correctly and pinpointing what he's going to toss at me. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On April 26 2012 01:12 Roynalf wrote: What is everyones opinion on ling/infestor style on ZvP, did it "die" just cuz neutral parasite range nerf? How would you play ling/infestor style, is 2 base and delayd third only way to get it work? imo ling/infestor style is still pretty strong, with early upgrades it doesnt have any problems against any timing attacks, I feel like only thing what can hurt is very fast high templars with storm and collosus, but you can pretty much counter collosus with corruptors and all this lead to very nice late game with broodlords, infestor, lings and awesome ground upgrades. I would like to hear your opinions on this style Its still possible for sure, I do it occasionally on maps like cloud/entombed where you can't deny the toss third with roaches ever. You'll have to use some roach at the standard timing to defend your third, but the lings allows you to take a really fast fourth as soon as you deny the 2 base timing and threaten drops/counterattacks etc with really fast hive (like 11:30 started). Tip: Get banerain, since a lot of protosses will see lings/infestors and just be like "lol i make zealots/colossus" which both die pretty hard to banelings coming from overlords. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
As for gateway pushes, depends on the amount of gateways/upgrades the Toss went for. There really is no set time, anytime after WG research is done, you should be prepared to have an army coming at you. | ||
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imanoobcs
184 Posts
A month or two ago the meta-game switched to mass roach @ 12 minutes and win vs toss. Toss have wised up a little and are finding was to destroy this build. Lately I have been seeing more scouting on the protoss part, and not just a probe to block expansions. I mean that they check for a 3rd before they ffe. If they see a third, they just go early 4 gate pressure and wipe me out. If they dont and I stay on 2 bases, they go for an expansion at their natural. I have been scouting and taking my third as soon as they plant their nexus and even watching if they cancel it. However, this still ends up with me behind somehow. They always seem to attack at the most terrible time and I dont have enough units to deal with it. A lot of it has to do with me holding off on ling speed and roach warren so that I am able to expand and continue with mass roach. If i can get on 3 bases I have a really good win rate. I have tried starting like I am preparing for a 4 gate, but I always end up behind. Any advice? | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On April 26 2012 04:17 imanoobcs wrote: ZvP Question A month or two ago the meta-game switched to mass roach @ 12 minutes and win vs toss. Toss have wised up a little and are finding was to destroy this build. Lately I have been seeing more scouting on the protoss part, and not just a probe to block expansions. I mean that they check for a 3rd before they ffe. If they see a third, they just go early 4 gate pressure and wipe me out. If they dont and I stay on 2 bases, they go for an expansion at their natural. I have been scouting and taking my third as soon as they plant their nexus and even watching if they cancel it. However, this still ends up with me behind somehow. They always seem to attack at the most terrible time and I dont have enough units to deal with it. A lot of it has to do with me holding off on ling speed and roach warren so that I am able to expand and continue with mass roach. If i can get on 3 bases I have a really good win rate. I have tried starting like I am preparing for a 4 gate, but I always end up behind. Any advice? Reactively deciding to FFE after scouting the 3rd isn't possible. Post a replay. You should scout for gateway expand/ffe with an overlord. If they gateway expand, don't take a 3rd and get a gas asap for speed. | ||
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Tribuno
Italy261 Posts
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On April 26 2012 04:17 imanoobcs wrote: ZvP Question A month or two ago the meta-game switched to mass roach @ 12 minutes and win vs toss. Toss have wised up a little and are finding was to destroy this build. Lately I have been seeing more scouting on the protoss part, and not just a probe to block expansions. I mean that they check for a 3rd before they ffe. If they see a third, they just go early 4 gate pressure and wipe me out. If they dont and I stay on 2 bases, they go for an expansion at their natural. I have been scouting and taking my third as soon as they plant their nexus and even watching if they cancel it. However, this still ends up with me behind somehow. They always seem to attack at the most terrible time and I dont have enough units to deal with it. A lot of it has to do with me holding off on ling speed and roach warren so that I am able to expand and continue with mass roach. If i can get on 3 bases I have a really good win rate. I have tried starting like I am preparing for a 4 gate, but I always end up behind. Any advice? Yeah, as monk said this actually isn't even possible. They will have to decide on forge first or gateway first before you even take your first expansion hatch, let alone your second..... Post up a replay and we can analyze it, what's likely happening is that you're not making drones at the right times, so when toss hits you have a crappy economy and he just runs you over with units. On April 26 2012 05:04 Tribuno wrote: the few times i played vs a toss that doesn't go FFE, if he s not allin (4 gate, 3 gate robo, dt ecc) i lost.. i m not able to play vs 1 base expand anymore.. i don't know the timing because i get used to play only vs FFE.. any suggestion on how to play in particular vs 3 gate exp or build like this? I always drone scout with my 13th drone in ZvP, so then you see if he's going gate first or forge first. If you see him going standard gate first, steal his gas with the scouting drone. This means that you will be able to see if he's saving chrono on his nexus (if so, this likely means 4 gate or at least early warpgate pressure with X gateways). In addition, if he just wanted to sentry expand then he has a lot less gas to do so. You should still open pool -> hatch against gateway first, but just make a gas right as the pool finishes, get ling speed, and then pull guys off gas and make pure drones for a while if you determine that he's not 4 gating. I generally will expand to my third around 6:00 or 6:30 against a sentry expand, go up to 3 gas geysers mining around 50 food (put guys back into the first one and take 2 more), and get one roach warren and one evo chamber right around that time. Use lings to poke his front and see his units constantly (no units or like only zealots/stalks might mean DT or hidden stargate or something, etc etc). Suicide an overlord around 7:00 to get a better idea of what's up. Good luck! | ||
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