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On April 26 2012 05:25 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 04:17 imanoobcs wrote:
ZvP Question
A month or two ago the meta-game switched to mass roach @ 12 minutes and win vs toss. Toss have wised up a little and are finding was to destroy this build. Lately I have been seeing more scouting on the protoss part, and not just a probe to block expansions. I mean that they check for a 3rd before they ffe. If they see a third, they just go early 4 gate pressure and wipe me out. If they dont and I stay on 2 bases, they go for an expansion at their natural. I have been scouting and taking my third as soon as they plant their nexus and even watching if they cancel it. However, this still ends up with me behind somehow. They always seem to attack at the most terrible time and I dont have enough units to deal with it. A lot of it has to do with me holding off on ling speed and roach warren so that I am able to expand and continue with mass roach. If i can get on 3 bases I have a really good win rate. I have tried starting like I am preparing for a 4 gate, but I always end up behind. Any advice? Yeah, as monk said this actually isn't even possible. They will have to decide on forge first or gateway first before you even take your first expansion hatch, let alone your second..... Post up a replay and we can analyze it, what's likely happening is that you're not making drones at the right times, so when toss hits you have a crappy economy and he just runs you over with units. Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 05:04 Tribuno wrote:
the few times i played vs a toss that doesn't go FFE, if he s not allin (4 gate, 3 gate robo, dt ecc) i lost.. i m not able to play vs 1 base expand anymore.. i don't know the timing because i get used to play only vs FFE.. any suggestion on how to play in particular vs 3 gate exp or build like this? I always drone scout with my 13th drone in ZvP, so then you see if he's going gate first or forge first. If you see him going standard gate first, steal his gas with the scouting drone. This means that you will be able to see if he's saving chrono on his nexus (if so, this likely means 4 gate or at least early warpgate pressure with X gateways). In addition, if he just wanted to sentry expand then he has a lot less gas to do so. You should still open pool -> hatch against gateway first, but just make a gas right as the pool finishes, get ling speed, and then pull guys off gas and make pure drones for a while if you determine that he's not 4 gating. I generally will expand to my third around 6:00 or 6:30 against a sentry expand, go up to 3 gas geysers mining around 50 food (put guys back into the first one and take 2 more), and get one roach warren and one evo chamber right around that time. Use lings to poke his front and see his units constantly (no units or like only zealots/stalks might mean DT or hidden stargate or something, etc etc). Suicide an overlord around 7:00 to get a better idea of what's up. Good luck!
thanks, those are great suggestions..i'll try to drone scout e steal gas.. and the gas/evo/rw timing are really useful.
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Just FYI, the usefulness of a gas steal is debated by top level players... I still do it but some people argue that it pushes the protoss towards 4 gating, and thus they say that it's bad since you're relying purely on speedlings/spines/queens to defend.
I don't think it's too hard to defend a 4 gate these days, especially considering the current map pool, which is why I'll always gas steal vs gateway first.
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In ZvZ, I like to open with hatch first into roaches and speedlings. If I sense the opponent going greedy (droning up like crazy), I will try to all-in him by going up to ~30 drones, then producing all roaches and lings. On some long maps, they can respond in time by dropping down a ton of spines and thus holding off my attack. I then try to get a 3rd while producing mostly drones and roaches. What I've been having a little bit of trouble with is when they end up teching to mutas behind this. So in a situation where I have a mostly roach army, taking or about to take my third, and let's say I scout a spire... what is the proper response? Is it throw down 2 spores at every base? Throw down a hydra den immediately? Throw down an infestation pit immediately? Or a combination of these?
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On April 26 2012 07:50 FalconPunch wrote:
In ZvZ, I like to open with hatch first into roaches and speedlings. If I sense the opponent going greedy (droning up like crazy), I will try to all-in him by going up to ~30 drones, then producing all roaches and lings. On some long maps, they can respond in time by dropping down a ton of spines and thus holding off my attack. I then try to get a 3rd while producing mostly drones and roaches. What I've been having a little bit of trouble with is when they end up teching to mutas behind this. So in a situation where I have a mostly roach army, taking or about to take my third, and let's say I scout a spire... what is the proper response? Is it throw down 2 spores at every base? Throw down a hydra den immediately? Throw down an infestation pit immediately? Or a combination of these?
If you plan on going roach, and know your opponent is going muta (you'll see a bunch of spines at front, most likely) you need to have taken an early third before your lair. probably like a 7 min third, so that it finishes before mutas and you can put spores in it. from there, just go roach queen infestor, attack with 2/2 upgrades and queens and roaches, transfuse, fungal well, gg.
Unless your opponent is smart and didn't commit 100% to muta, and only made about 6 or so just to force you to react the way u did, in which case requires an entirely different response.
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how do you respond when a terran blocks your natural with an engineering bay? (sorry if its already been asked)
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For ZvZ
Every time I defend vs mutas I seem to have a surplus of minerals. I usually have my third up by then along with 2-3 spores at each base. I make about 4-5 infestors then make some hydras to fend off mutas. What am I suppose to be spending my excess minerals on?
edit: thanks!
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On April 26 2012 13:09 excellionx wrote:
For ZvZ
Every time I defend vs mutas I seem to have a surplus of minerals. I usually have my third up by then along with 2-3 spores at each base. I make about 4-5 infestors then make some hydras to fend off mutas. What am I suppose to be spending my excess minerals on?
Don't make hydras, they are inferior to queens in every way when playing against muta play. Generally you want like 4-5 queens to run around and defend your mineral lines from mutas, and then when you get maxed bring them along with your push for AA plus transfuses. That will help you get your minerals down when you're making queens off 3 hatches.
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On April 26 2012 13:09 excellionx wrote:
For ZvZ
Every time I defend vs mutas I seem to have a surplus of minerals. I usually have my third up by then along with 2-3 spores at each base. I make about 4-5 infestors then make some hydras to fend off mutas. What am I suppose to be spending my excess minerals on?
Drones, and Spine Crawlers. Lings can be helpful for harrass if theres an opportunity,
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On April 26 2012 12:13 sewergoat wrote:
how do you respond when a terran blocks your natural with an engineering bay? (sorry if its already been asked)
My way of dealing with this, taken from Catz:
kill the scv as soon as possible to avoid that it gets built too much. At the same time, take 4 drones and attack the Engineering bay, and expand as normal behind this (be careful that your opponent does not try to put another one when you got rid of the first one!).
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Strategy aside, this is a common problem for you, belial. You admit you're wrong a lot, yet you say things with such conviction that for people who don't know any better, they think you're stating what's generally accepted. It's like the misinformed leading the uniformed, which is the most annoying thing on these forums for me. Most people don't have the time or don't want to spend the effort to correct you and when they do you get defensive and respond with page long posts that are impossible to respond to. Many many people have brought this up, including me and yet you don't seem to change. In the future, before posting, consider using "I think" or "In my experience" or "It seems" in your posts.
There's nothing I can do to change that. I'm not a blue, my username doesn't say "TeamLiquidBelial" or "BlizzardBelial". Anyone who is familiar with the internet and forums, should know that what I post, is only the opinions of myself, and no one else.
If I say something with a conviction that it's common knowledge, then it's because I think it's common knowledge. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I don't say anything I don't believe, and if I have anything but the utmost certainty about something, I express it. When you are wrong, you are wrong - what can I say. Myself, like many other lower level players, are full of misinformation about the game. I post here so I can be called out on it, and improve my game by fixing the misinformation that I 'know'.
I am a bit long-winded, I am aware of that, and it's something I plan to work on. I respect most people though, and if I don't respect you, I treat you with respect - 99% of the time, when I'm arguing with someone, I'm not arguing with them - I'm arguing to everyone else. This is an open forum, and I am keenly aware that everything I say is read by everyone else. Everything I say, is in the hopes that others will read the argument someone and myself is having, and side with the better argument. There are plenty of times I think someone is a fucking idiot, and will never get it, but every other person can learn from what I'm saying, or know better and call me out for being wrong, or understand where I am coming from.
So when someone says 'lol u suk dikhed, hatch first stoopid", I will respond as if they said "Good sir, I disagree with your claim on hatch first", because there are people out there who may not be fucking retards, who agree with that retard, and so I am talking to them.
It's pretty obvious everything I say is solely the opinion of myself. It's a bit ridiculous to ask that I should always post "i think" in my posts. Anyone who understands how forums work, and what the internet is, and what kind of people populate it, should understand what I say is my own beliefs. I'm also pretty open about being a pretty big troll in general, as well as being wrong on multiple occasions. And I feel it smacks a bit of elitism, what you are saying - why don't you say "i think" in every one of your posts? Actually, that's probably stupid to say, your much higher level than me, and actually do know what you are talking about... but it seems odd that I would be forced to talk a certain way. I get it, what I say is not nearly as credible as what you say (and I truly mean that, high masters is so much more qualified than shit lower masters, and I do not say that with any sarcasm at all, I'm a bronze to a diamond compared to you), but that I should talk in a way that is completely unlike how I am as a person, just because... of whatever, seems ridiculous.
Am I a lower masters who is clueless, like every lower masters? Yes. Of course. But I talk like this, and I'm not going to act different than who I really am, just to appease these supposed people who think I speak for TL. I say shit in real life, people don't think I'm the president just because I talk with conviction in real life.
The problem is more about the way you assume things, which is extraordinarily annoying. Why can't you just say something like : "hmm, here I am not sure I agree with you, maybe I am wrong, but in my experience, I often fall behind when doing this or that" ? Is this so complicated? instead of making huge claims which, by the way, often prove to be incorrect in some way, or imprecise, if not just false.
I did say that. I said I was curious about the build, and wanted to see the rep. I was just pointing out oddities of the build, observations, that I think are completely valid. If every single pro but one plays a certain way, and that one pro doesn't even do it regularly, I think it's questionable. I mean, LiquidNony says (maybe it's 'said' by this point in time) gateway expand is better than FFE. Many TL posters say gateway expand is horrible and outdated compared to FFE, and is just not viable anymore, as do most pros. It's questionable. Maybe Nony is right, but it's goddamn questionable, is all I'm getting it.
I'm explaining my view of the match-up. If there is a fundamental flaw in my understanding, please, I want to know. It's not like gasless hatch first is just a little different. It flies in the face of my understanding of early game ZvZ. Also, I specifically stopped going hatch first baneling because speed was so late and I wouldn't be able to put on counter-pressure - going gasless seems like it would delay that speed even more. I came to realize that hatch first baneling is a horrible build, because you can't threaten the opponent if he went 14/14, meaning you will be much more even in drones than double queen unless you gamble. With double queen, you can even afford to drone up against a pool first opening. It's just more greedier.
I have nothing against you Macpo, I'm just explaining how I view the game. The reason I question gasless hatch first, is because of that understanding of the match-up. Saying "i dont like the build" isn't as comprehensive - there may be a complete flaw in my understanding of the MU, so I would hope that it would be corrected (or if I'm correct, someone could maybe reassure me). I felt I was pretty clear that I was unsure. I never said his build was shit, I just said I found it odd, and why I find it odd.
I never said I was sure the build was bad. I said I was unsure, and was astounded, and would have loved to see more on it. I never said the build was shit, I just explained why I thought it was questionable. Read my post over.
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Anyways, I have a question.
In ZvZ, I'm having a bit of... trouble, I guess. I seem to have an extreme aversion in my style of play, to doing anything semi-all-in. Not just making units instead of drones, but like, I will never go 2 base in ZvZ because I think it's too all-in compared to 3 base - even if I'm far ahead in the game (like opening hatch first vs pool first).
I mean seriously, I'd say over 80% of the ZvZ's I win go to at least 3 bases, if not 5. I regularly go to hive tech in ZvZ. I see a lot of other people say every ZvZ, the game ends in the first 5 minutes. Unless the opponent all-ins me with 1 base play or 2 base roach/ling on hatch tech (which I almost always defend against) and leaves (because if he doesn't leave, I'll just stick to the macro game), I always go toward the longer and longer game, which I almost feel leaves me vulnerable to the transition to midgame.
So, 2 questions, with that in mind:
1. How to capitalize on a minor early game lead, namely, from going hatch first against a pool first player who maybe doesn't go all-in? Is there any tangible lead amount that would make doing some sort of all-in or aggression (maybe like mutas) the best strategic choice (ie like if he doesnt expand by 21, and I hold his ling/bane pressure and then he expands and doesn't dedicate too hard to it)?
2. I'm sort of confused on midgame. It's like, I'm a bit confused on decision making in the midgame. I know I should provide replays, but I'm well aware of my macro issues, which I will address (the macro issues stem from my indecision, or paralysis, or overreaction, I suppose). So I'm just going to say how I make my decisions, and you guys give me feedback.
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So once you get up to about 40 supply with drones, you take a 2nd gas, then ~40 evo and +1, then ~50 roach warren, as standard, right? And then, you make decisions based on what you scout. Basically, you and your opponent could do the following:
1. Roach/ling hatch tech all-in
2. 2 base roach
3. 2 base early muta (lair started in 30s, earlier 40s)
4. 2 base muta (lair started at 'standard' ~50+)
5. Fast third roach based play
I used to be a firm believer in if the opponent is going mutas, just go later mutas yourself. But I often find that in many games, I've started +1 attack and a roach warren while the opponent hasn't made either of those and is fast-tracking to mutas - I feel like I'm too late to go mutas myself. I don't know if this is true or not, but I've been like paralyzed recently to go mutas myself because I feel they are too all-innish, when I could go for a third instead, or, go for defensive infestor play.
I think I've really been struggling with muta play ever since I stopped doing it myself. I know to make spores only when their spire has actually finished, and making it before then is too early, but like, I try to make at least 6 queens, and I don't know, my econ just really suffers as I sink so many minerals into queens and infestor tech instead of drones, because you can't make queens quickly like with larva, and you need those infestors somewhat quickly.
Another problem is that I watch the replays and realize I could have roach/ling all-inned, but I didn't. It's like I find out after I've already started +1 or my third/lair, and by then I can't roach/ling all-in. Maybe some sort of 2 base all-in is a good call, like 2 base roach/infestor/queen, or mass speedroaches? I don't know, I've never tried one of these, but especially with the recent new ladder maps like Daybreak, it seems impossible to stop pure muta players who don't go for roach/infestor afterwards, but instead go for ultra tech. Which normally, results in you dying, but considering I'm such a nervous nancy who MUST macro more, I just give the opponent the time to get ultra tech. I have no idea how to push against mass macro muta - I make lots of infestors, but the queens can't come along on huge maps and hydras are not really an option.... maybe just better energy usage?
And when does everyone get their third in ZvZ?
I guess my real question is, is how to defend and play against muta play in ZvZ? I never move out against muta play - not because I'm afraid of the mutas, but because I'm just the sort of player who would rather defend defend defend macro, but then the opponent has the time to get his own infestors out or ultra tech. Is there any sort of timings to use that are surefire against any sort of muta play?
Anyways, my roach vs roach game is pretty straightforward. I go for third, defend with roaches (hydras if he's still on 2 base, or if he gets hydras), and I will get infestors if we both got our third quickly and played macro, or hydras if it's more a 2base vs 2 base aggressive game (i try to go for infestors later than the opponent, and get map control with mass roach before his infestors pop). But then, once he has infestors, I never attack, and the game goes straight to BL tech.
I generally go for nydus before hive, especially if the opponent goes for what I think is too quick a hive. But this is literally like a good 50% of my games. Get third, maybe even well before the opponent does (like I'll play someone 'bad' who goes 2 base infestor, so I take fast third, drone the fuck up, then mass roaches on superior production and have total map control and deny his third forever, then get later infestors of my own in time to defend), but then once those infestors are out, I feel like neither of us can really attack into the other, and the game always goes toward mass bases BL tech. The problem with this is any sort of early or midgame lead is lost, and if the opponent isn't retarded like making the wrong tech choices (like ultras in a roach vs roach game), the game is largely even and really too close for comfort in what was a game that I had a huge lead with.
Another problem I encouter is people who go fast broodlords. Like, so whatever, it's retarded, but he has infestors and I can't attack and he gets 4 base broodlord a bit too early. I try to 'counter' this with nydus play and then get corruptors and base trade (this is only if he goes fast broodlords, not 'normal' broodlords made after mass infestors and lots of roaches)... but I feel even that is too uncomfortable. Then I have these games where these broodlords just kill too many infestors or bases and I lose. I don't know... I guess I'm just asking here, is what do you do against people who get broodlords a little too early in ZvZ.
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How do you stop the Gate/3 Immortal push on Ohana LE? I feel like this map is especially bad for going Roach, as there are alot of chokes that the Toss can take advantage of. Thank you
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I don't understand ZvZ. Say you open the exact same, 14/14 or 15 Hatch, whatever. So the next phase is that potential Bling/Ling game, you're active with your lings, you see him massing lings. When the do you say "OK he's not going to keep committing, so I can tech and drone now." I seem to always lose it because I'll essentially think it's over, but it's not. And I guess, what's a proper Ling/Bling ratio? What do you do when you see 8 blings running at the front of your natural? Should you get more than 2 Queens if you're still on two base? When?
additionally: 6/7 Pool with a Drone pull as well. Can my 15-16 Probes beat that? Or do I need to wait for Lings. Do I make a Spine? Do I make a Queen? What if he Spines at my base?
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On April 27 2012 09:35 Supah wrote:
I don't understand ZvZ. Say you open the exact same, 14/14 or 15 Hatch, whatever. So the next phase is that potential Bling/Ling game, you're active with your lings, you see him massing lings. When the do you say "OK he's not going to keep committing, so I can tech and drone now." I seem to always lose it because I'll essentially think it's over, but it's not. And I guess, what's a proper Ling/Bling ratio? What do you do when you see 8 blings running at the front of your natural? Should you get more than 2 Queens if you're still on two base? When?
additionally: 6/7 Pool with a Drone pull as well. Can my 15-16 Probes beat that? Or do I need to wait for Lings. Do I make a Spine? Do I make a Queen? What if he Spines at my base?
Keep scouting. Speedling scouts are pretty hard to deny. You should be able to get an idea about your opponent's drone count, standing army, gas geyser count, what his front looks like and tech level. If you get lucky timing, you can see an injection's worth of larva spawning as units. Additionally, on some maps you can get overlords to peek at key locations like the natural geysers, or at least your opponent's 3rd. Be careful with OLs in the early game though, as you can't rely on high ground to keep them safe from queens with friendly OLs.
8 blings? Try to trade favorably using a pair of your own blings to kill 2+ of his. Failing that, block them out with 2 queens at your ramp. If you have vulnerable drones, split them up as much as possible, again aiming for favorable trades like 2 blings for 2 drones or less. Early on, I like 2 drones on gas for bling production once the baneling nest and speed are on the way. That way you should be able to produce a good amount of all units without amassing a gas stockpile. If you're aiming for higher tech, you'll want more.
Times I'd get an extra queen or two on 2 bases: with an economic advantage with heavy ling/bling play, or as a response to expected 2-base muta. You'll often need queens to block your ramp, and it's possible you'll lose a queen to a quick ling surround. Additionally, ling-heavy play needs lots of larva, so don't get stuck without injections if you've got a lead. Vs mutas, queens can do pretty well, but the real purpose of an extra queen is getting creep out to your 3rd. With 3 or 4 queens you can handle low muta numbers, spread creep, inject, and even build up energy for a transfuse or two.
There's a comprehensive guide to handling 6-pool in the forums, take a look at that for specifics.
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On April 26 2012 17:10 Belial88 wrote:
Anyways, I have a question.
Well shit, everything you said are also the issues I couldn't deal with in zvz. My economy and transitions are horribly fucked up and I couldn't integrate making more queens and rushing to infestors while getting a 3rd then sporing it up because I believed it was the textbook way to deal/counter 2-base mutas. Afterwards I couldn't get enough army to deal with the shitload of mutas, lings, and banes off 2 base while I'm trying to stabilize my 3 bases
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double robo heavy sentry expo to 3rd in pvz.
muta better or hydra?
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On April 27 2012 15:19 ThePlayer33 wrote:
double robo heavy sentry expo to 3rd in pvz.
muta better or hydra?
I'm only plat/dia but the question you're asking is like: "other guy about to swing an iron claw at me so either I dodge it and do a roundhouse back at him or take it in the face and scream loudly...
...I think I should have picked the 1st choice"
Anyway, textbook tells me, once you see a collosus, get 8 drones and press "a" then click on your hydra den. 3 base mutas are a popular choice with the intention to contain and maek more base once you've scouted double robo. If your mutas did too well just prepare against a butthurt all in by spending your minerals on a shitload of spines.
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On April 27 2012 15:19 ThePlayer33 wrote:
double robo heavy sentry expo to 3rd in pvz.
muta better or hydra?
mutas sounds perfect here, cause sentries and immortals/colossi seem to be very inappropriate to deal against mutas. Although, if you are certain that he is going for immortals, hydras are also very good against sentries/immortals compositions.
the only risk would be a transition to colossi.
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What is a better follow-up when playing ling infestor against marine/tank, ultras or corruptor/brood lord?
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On April 27 2012 15:45 zuRbeK wrote:
What is a better follow-up when playing ling infestor against marine/tank, ultras or corruptor/brood lord?
Both can be played. broodlords are bit longer to get, and they will benefit less from the evo chamber upgrades than ultralisks. They are better in direct confrontations but are quite slow and it's difficult to engage. Most players go for broodlords. ultras (my favorite) come quicker and make you more active; but direct confrontations will not be as one sided.
Then, I tend to believe more and more that the good thing to do is quick transitions from one to another: like making ultralisks first; then when there are too many marauders, switch to broodlords; and when there are too many vikings, switch back to ultralisks... Such transitions, with the element of surprise, are quite helpful I would say.
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EPT
