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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On April 27 2012 20:06 gronnelg wrote:
I tried asking for help with a build, but no one answered. So I'll post again....
In zvt I like to open 15 hatch 15 pool, then get 4 roaches to push away the hellions and secure a 3rd.
Midgame I like to go muta ling bling, and then tansition to infestor BL lategame. Is there a build like that out there? Give link please?
I'm having a hard time using the search function of TL. I usually dont find what I'm looking for :/
Blade's Roach Opener. I've been using this opener for some time now and I really like its flexibility insofar as you have the option of making more roaches in the event the T goes for a ridiculous hellion count. Otherwise, you get the third quickly and it barely cuts into tech timings or anything else. You can also threaten a roach/ling(/bling) all in...
On April 28 2012 00:23 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
How on earth do you play ling/infestor vs marine/tank? Fungals or burrow with Infested terrans? How should you control your lings and infestors together?
I fungal gratuitously. But then, I go infestor/ling/bling, and fungals not only does damage, but holds groups of marines in place to die to blings. Straight up ling/infestor, in my experience, is less cost efficient as the game goes on.
I do, however, keep lings on a separate hotkey than infestors. I'm not really a fan of a-moving infestors into tank lines, though, admittedly, I do it more often than I'd like to...
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How can i beat zvp, for the last 3seasons i havent faced 1 toss now i amf acing them constantly in masters and idk what to do so i just lose
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On April 29 2012 01:29 ThePiedPiper wrote:
How can i beat zvp, for the last 3seasons i havent faced 1 toss now i amf acing them constantly in masters and idk what to do so i just lose
Can you specify how you lose? You could check some stephano/drg replays to have a general idea on what to do.
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Hey guys I'm a masters level player trying to improve my ZvP. I've got the 12 minute max timing down, however good protoss can usually stop your denying of the 3rd or force an unfavourable engage. I like the idea of transitioning into mutas, I usually sit back and wait to go to broodlord infestor, but I feel there is a timing window when they can get their deathball up and push before you have critical mass. I like the idea of keeping the protoss on their toes with mutas and controling the map, however I have a few questions on how this style works.
1. When is the best time to transition into mutas? Say after the 12 minute max out doesn't end the game, is that when you make the transition and get as much gas as possible?
2. What should the ideal mid game comp be? Obviously you are going to be floating more minerals than gas, so do you just stock up on lings? Also what upgrades should you be getting?
3. If they respond by turtling and using stalkers to defend, meanwhile getting HT, what do you do? Do you want to force a base trade? Or do you want to tech to something else? What is the end game goal of going mutas?
4. Is there a point where you stop muta production?
5. At the super late game, do you transition out of mutas? I ask because I've seen games where people get 40+ mutas, seems a little hard to "transition" from that
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On April 29 2012 00:56 SolitudeSC wrote:
This has probably been asked already but, what do I do if the Protoss does not FFE in ZvP?
I always Stephano style ZvP, and that screws my game up if my opponent does not FFE. In other words, I need help in all
aspect of ZvP. Hell, I need help in all match-ups. I won't crowd the thread with all of my flaws.
TaOKusthos.945
PM me if you want more in-depth explanation. Thanks!
I'm a mid-masters Protoss player who just recently switched to zerg.
The mentality of Protoss players vs zerg is to either to play defensive and beat higher food count zerg armies by turtling at chokes and wait for deathball or constantly focus on various timing attacks to force out units from the zerg. Gateway openings are almost always a sign of the latter choice.
The biggest part of recognizing if he is planning gateway expand or some various type of all in (Lobber's 4 Gate Robo has been probably the most successful recently) is heavily reliant on your overlord sac for scouting. The signs that you should look for that signal an all-in are:
-Chronoboost usage/Probe Production
Decent Protoss should be constantly using their CB. It's common to CB warpgate in all matchups, but what you should look for if whether there is still probe production when he has saturated his main. Most probe cuts for 1 base play are at ~26 probes (I don't know the exact timing of this ~6 min?)
-Building Layout
If your overlord scouts that he has spread his gateways all around his base (ie you see a pylon in a corner w/ one gate), you should understand that the intent of this is to minimize your scouting so that you don't have an accurate count of how many gateways he has. For standard play, its common practice to cluster your gateways around multiple pylons to reduce the chance that they will be powered down by possible muta play. Ironically, the simple fact that he has spread his gateways indicates that he doesnt expect to reach the late game.
-How aggressively he tries to deny your scouting
This ties in with building layout. Protoss all-ins frequently have pylons covering the edges of their base so they see your overlord sac as soon as it happens so they can rush over their stalker/sentries to deny your scouting. Though we always like to deny scouting, the urgency of his reaction can indicate how badly he doesnt want you to see what he has. If your overlord was just going to see standard builds we generally send 1 sentry or stalker to kill the overlord while the rest of our units stick to the wall.
-Lack of scouting
On 2 player maps and the Protoss doesnt scout at all. The point of this is that we're generally committed when doing an all-in the second the game starts and the success of all-ins greatly relies on how fast we can get it to hit the other guy. There's no point to send a scouting probe for some all-in builds because seeing 14/14 or hatch first won't impact our play and we can't afford 100 minerals for a pylon block because it will delay our timing. The probe would be better off just mining.
*****
Keep in mind, that none of these elements are a sure sign of an all-in; they are just pieces of the puzzle that you need to put together when you don't have the complete picture.
Best Reaction:
If he hasn't expanded by ~6 minutes, it's nearly certain that he's going to do some sort of heavy aggression.
Your answer is spines, lots and lots and lots of spines. Right now, all you should focus on is staying alive with 2 bases. As long as you stay alive, you'll have better drone count, better saturation. If you took a fast third, be willing to give that up and transfer drones preemptively when you see him move out. Its really hard to defend 3 bases simply because your spine count can't be high enough at BOTH bases to hold of all of his forces. Do everything you can, make extra queens, pull your queens from your other hatches to come to the front for transfuse.
This is to the best of my understanding (at least from the perspective of a Protoss). The best way to hold all-ins is just to react with spine crawlers, your unit count and simply won't be high enough to deal with standard protoss all-ins by themselves. I hope this helped.
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I am a Z and I have been having problems with this new 2 base allin toss have been going. It is immortals + stalkers + sentires + zealots (sometimes none, sometimes alot) off 2 base ofc with 6-7 gateways with 1-1 upgrades off a FFE.
I go standard 14 pool 15 hatch into a quick third, take 3 gases at 6:30, roach warren and evo at 7:30, lair at first 100 gas and meta at next 100 THEN I pump roaches (+ lings if necessary).
However I always just seem to die, If I survive i tech to infestors but they just keep pushing and fungal just isn't enough (I have even tried neural but that failed, mainly because of my bad control I guess).
I acknowledge I'm pretty bad (diamond) but I was curious if roach ling is actually capable of beating this? I imagine it is but is there a better way? Roach hydra? roach infestor?
Thanks!
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On April 29 2012 10:50 ThatGuyDoMo wrote:
I am a Z and I have been having problems with this new 2 base allin toss have been going. It is immortals + stalkers + sentires + zealots (sometimes none, sometimes alot) off 2 base ofc with 6-7 gateways with 1-1 upgrades off a FFE.
I go standard 14 pool 15 hatch into a quick third, take 3 gases at 6:30, roach warren and evo at 7:30, lair at first 100 gas and meta at next 100 THEN I pump roaches (+ lings if necessary).
However I always just seem to die, If I survive i tech to infestors but they just keep pushing and fungal just isn't enough (I have even tried neural but that failed, mainly because of my bad control I guess).
I acknowledge I'm pretty bad (diamond) but I was curious if roach ling is actually capable of beating this? I imagine it is but is there a better way? Roach hydra? roach infestor?
Thanks!
Roach ling is fine if you keep your macro up.
For comparison, when DRG uses a 3 gas build he has 56 workers completed at 7:34 and then he just builds army. You can be maxed out on roach ling when a +1/+1 immortal attack hits (~11 minutes) if you play it perfectly (which is hard, even for masters players).
Just have your units out on the map and surround him from all sides when he's in the middle and make him waste his forcefields and then wear him down. Don't let him get between your 3rd and natural and forcefield of half your army.
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When protoss is trying to pylon block my natural, I'm inclined to take my third first, since it's economically superior to waiting for lings and then taking natural. However, I have to make this decision before I scout whether the protoss has gone a forge expand or gate core. If it's gate core, I have to be prepared for 4 gate, early stargate, dts, etc, with a very late gas and a second base very far from my main. Is there a good way to respond safely to the multiple possibilities?
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On April 29 2012 10:09 Chinesewonder wrote:
Hey guys I'm a masters level player trying to improve my ZvP. I've got the 12 minute max timing down, however good protoss can usually stop your denying of the 3rd or force an unfavourable engage. I like the idea of transitioning into mutas, I usually sit back and wait to go to broodlord infestor, but I feel there is a timing window when they can get their deathball up and push before you have critical mass. I like the idea of keeping the protoss on their toes with mutas and controling the map, however I have a few questions on how this style works.
1. When is the best time to transition into mutas? Say after the 12 minute max out doesn't end the game, is that when you make the transition and get as much gas as possible?
2. What should the ideal mid game comp be? Obviously you are going to be floating more minerals than gas, so do you just stock up on lings? Also what upgrades should you be getting?
3. If they respond by turtling and using stalkers to defend, meanwhile getting HT, what do you do? Do you want to force a base trade? Or do you want to tech to something else? What is the end game goal of going mutas?
4. Is there a point where you stop muta production?
5. At the super late game, do you transition out of mutas? I ask because I've seen games where people get 40+ mutas, seems a little hard to "transition" from that
Hey guys here's a recent replay of me playing against toss. http://drop.sc/169230
It summarizes my struggle against protoss really well. First thing is I tried to do the 12 minute max out, timings are alright, however I kinda stopped at 170 supply and tried to macro a bit, partly because cloud kingdom is really hard to do damage on. When I eventually go in, it is a horrible engage, and I lose a lot, so I back off and tech to mutas. I eventually get some mutas and go in for harass drawing his army into the main, then pick off his 3rd with roaches and retreat. Then he just comes in and kills me off with his deathball. I'm very lost. Should I have just base traded?
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Anyone have a specific reason as to why zergs these days are hotkeying hatches individually and injecting using that method instead of just hotkeying individual queens ?
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How the hell do you deal with a toss who just sits in their base until 160 food and pushes with stalker immortal sentry? They literally sit on 2 bases put on no aggression and push out at like 15min.
I had a max roach army and 5 infestors 10 spinecrawlers and had just gotten a 4th base up x.x There's no way I can tech to broods that fast is there? Do I need to just go mass ling infestor instead? Mutas?
God it's so frustrating to lose to someone who puts on no pressure, no scouting, and just a-moves a blob of the most disgustingly cost effective units.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 30 2012 13:59 KimJongChill wrote:
How the hell do you deal with a toss who just sits in their base until 160 food and pushes with stalker immortal sentry? They literally sit on 2 bases put on no aggression and push out at like 15min.
I had a max roach army and 5 infestors 10 spinecrawlers and had just gotten a 4th base up x.x There's no way I can tech to broods that fast is there? Do I need to just go mass ling infestor instead? Mutas?
God it's so frustrating to lose to someone who puts on no pressure, no scouting, and just a-moves a blob of the most disgustingly cost effective units.
You should have a huge bank by that time.
As he moves out, trade your maxed army for 30-40 supply of his and some forcefield energy. Then use the time it takes to for him to get to your base and completely max out again to crush his army.
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On April 30 2012 14:09 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 13:59 KimJongChill wrote:
How the hell do you deal with a toss who just sits in their base until 160 food and pushes with stalker immortal sentry? They literally sit on 2 bases put on no aggression and push out at like 15min.
I had a max roach army and 5 infestors 10 spinecrawlers and had just gotten a 4th base up x.x There's no way I can tech to broods that fast is there? Do I need to just go mass ling infestor instead? Mutas?
God it's so frustrating to lose to someone who puts on no pressure, no scouting, and just a-moves a blob of the most disgustingly cost effective units. You should have a huge bank by that time. As he moves out, trade your maxed army for 30-40 supply of his and some forcefield energy. Then use the time it takes to for him to get to your base and completely max out again to crush his army.
Alright. Would you recommend a remax on hydras?
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On April 29 2012 10:09 Chinesewonder wrote:
Hey guys I'm a masters level player trying to improve my ZvP. I've got the 12 minute max timing down, however good protoss can usually stop your denying of the 3rd or force an unfavourable engage. I like the idea of transitioning into mutas, I usually sit back and wait to go to broodlord infestor, but I feel there is a timing window when they can get their deathball up and push before you have critical mass. I like the idea of keeping the protoss on their toes with mutas and controling the map, however I have a few questions on how this style works.
1. When is the best time to transition into mutas? Say after the 12 minute max out doesn't end the game, is that when you make the transition and get as much gas as possible?
2. What should the ideal mid game comp be? Obviously you are going to be floating more minerals than gas, so do you just stock up on lings? Also what upgrades should you be getting?
3. If they respond by turtling and using stalkers to defend, meanwhile getting HT, what do you do? Do you want to force a base trade? Or do you want to tech to something else? What is the end game goal of going mutas?
4. Is there a point where you stop muta production?
5. At the super late game, do you transition out of mutas? I ask because I've seen games where people get 40+ mutas, seems a little hard to "transition" from that
I am also a masters Zerg, so take my advice as you will.
1. Depends on if the Protoss attacks your or try to take his third. If the protoss attacks you then I will get the spire as soon as I know that I won't die to his push. If he plays passive i will wait a little longer and build up enough units to attack his 3rd and prevent it from becoming active. While staying aggressive with roach/ling I start building up the gas and going for a heavier ling ratio to get enough gas for the mutas. During this point I also try to get my 4th and another round of drones. Typically I make around 12-15 muta around the 14:30-15 min mark when being aggressive and start doing double pronged attacks with my roach/ling and muta. I also try to get the infestation pit out when i hit 8 gas, to start my hive.
2. I guess you could consider mid-game to be after you start producing units, in that case I tend to go roach/ling until I know what he is doing, if he is going heavy gateway for some reason I stay on 4 gas and power roach/ling. If he is going for immortals I tend to lean more on lings but still having roaches in the unit mix and get the spire. If I don't plan on doing muta I do missile/carapace. If I am playing on a map that muta can work on (cloud kingdom is a non-muta map to me) I will go for melee/carapace with air ups. Eventually I cycle out the roach/ling army, trading for eco damage and keeping his army small while going for about 30 mutas, 85 drone/queen and the rest ling while I get the infester ups and hive tech online.
3. This is an odd question because it has two very different answers. If they are going for a third and turtling then you should be picking them apart with roach/ling into muta or w/e u want. If they are turtling on 2 base then get up a 4 base eco while going straight for hive tech. On two bases they shouldn't be able to beat your 4 base eco and eventually you use brolords to crack them.
4. You should stop muta production when they stop doing damage. Kind of a hard thing to pinpoint but if the protoss has his blink stalkers and archon going well and you weren't able to stop the third then you need to do something else. Use the mutas to pin him, make him wary of moving out and hopefully make more cannons, then transition into something like brolords or tech down to roach/ling and start adding infesters. This is a tough call as well because if you feel the need to stop muta production because it isn't doing damage there is a fair chance that you are behind or the tech switch to broodlords will put you behind. Hopefully your toss friend doesn't push across the map when you are making the switch because that could spell death for you, especially if he has the archons or ht that devastates mutas.
5. Mutas can snowball into an extended mid-game really well. To answer this question you really have to look at what the toss has to do to force the transition. He essentially have to go ht/archon/blink stalker and protect his full base. If you get up to the 40+ muta mark you should be doing a lot of damage with those mutas, and will be able to take on a lot of stuff. 50 mutas when the protoss doesn't have archons or ht and is going for a stalker heavy build is just gross, the way you get to that point is keep them on probe production. If you start well with mutas you can try to finish with them. It drives the toss nuts.
Overall you can play the stephano style a little more reserved (well, I do. but that's just my opinion). I typically get about 150f by 10 mins or so and push with that while starting to tech and get my 4th. If the battle goes as I hope then I get 8 gas and go for muta, if it goes mediocre then I keep making pockets of drones and producing pure roach/ling. If it goes poorly then I pull back and gather up a bigger force and wait on droning the 4th. To be clear, you have to reinforce the army constantly, you just get pockets where you can do other stuff.
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On April 30 2012 06:16 Chinesewonder wrote:Hey guys here's a recent replay of me playing against toss. http://drop.sc/169230It summarizes my struggle against protoss really well. First thing is I tried to do the 12 minute max out, timings are alright, however I kinda stopped at 170 supply and tried to macro a bit, partly because cloud kingdom is really hard to do damage on. When I eventually go in, it is a horrible engage, and I lose a lot, so I back off and tech to mutas. I eventually get some mutas and go in for harass drawing his army into the main, then pick off his 3rd with roaches and retreat. Then he just comes in and kills me off with his deathball. I'm very lost. Should I have just base traded?
In that game you made a couple of mistakes and I think that the mutas were one of them. but first, You were behind on eco almost the entire time and it was mainly the two spines you made, you should have tried to get away w/out making two. You were late on your roach speed and late on your rw as well. When you attacked his third I would have pulled back after seeing like 4+ cannons. At that point you can look to attack at his nat and force him to pull his army and fight you there. After he retreated from killing your fourth you should have droned up your 3 bases fully. You were missing 12 drones from optimal saturation and then could have started to work on your 4th. You take a 5th base which is fine but I think 6 drones would have been better. I don't think this is a good map for mutas. Their isn't a lot of room to float between mineral lines and the protoss can blink around between the 3 bases fairly easily. I would have gone for infesters instead. I think the main thing to take away is you sat on 54 drones for way too long. Protoss is a lot more efficient than zerg and him having an even eco with you even when you have 75 drones is not good. There was no real point until the end where he was interrupted. You could have done more damage with your roach/ling at 13 mins. You could have droned adequately when he retreated at 11:30 and switching to mutas on double spire on cloud kindgom feels like a bad idea.
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I got a question:
When is baneling bust ever like a solid idea, as opposed to a coinflip? Like, if you see someone going super fast third with an overlord scout, you can reactively go roach/bane rain all-in and win every time. But what about the standard bane bust where instead of going lair, at 40 supply you go 2nd gas baneling nest kill kill kill?
I felt like if they opened 2 rax, it was a surefire way to win the game afterwards, but I dont think it's that straightforward... so was just wondering.
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This has probably been asked already but, what do I do if the Protoss does not FFE in ZvP?
I always Stephano style ZvP, and that screws my game up if my opponent does not FFE. In other words, I need help in all
aspect of ZvP. Hell, I need help in all match-ups. I won't crowd the thread with all of my flaws.
TaOKusthos.945
PM me if you want more in-depth explanation. Thanks!
How can i beat zvp, for the last 3seasons i havent faced 1 toss now i amf acing them constantly in masters and idk what to do so i just lose
Hey guys I'm a masters level player trying to improve my ZvP. I've got the 12 minute max timing down, however good protoss can usually stop your denying of the 3rd or force an unfavourable engage. I like the idea of transitioning into mutas, I usually sit back and wait to go to broodlord infestor, but I feel there is a timing window when they can get their deathball up and push before you have critical mass. I like the idea of keeping the protoss on their toes with mutas and controling the map, however I have a few questions on how this style works....
I am a Z and I have been having problems with this new 2 base allin toss have been going. It is immortals + stalkers + sentires + zealots (sometimes none, sometimes alot) off 2 base ofc with 6-7 gateways with 1-1 upgrades off a FFE.
When protoss is trying to pylon block my natural, I'm inclined to take my third first, since it's economically superior to waiting for lings and then taking natural. However, I have to make this decision before I scout whether the protoss has gone a forge expand or gate core. If it's gate core, I have to be prepared for 4 gate, early stargate, dts, etc, with a very late gas and a second base very far from my main. Is there a good way to respond safely to the multiple possibilities?
Check out my ZvP guide here:
Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvP!
It answers all your questions, and so much more.
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In general, is it safer to stay on two base while a p and t are still on one or should you continue expanding as you would? It seems that taking a 3rd as they secure their Nat leaves me somewhat behind, or just about even while taking a 3rd when they are still on one base leads to difficult defensive situations. Any tips?
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On April 30 2012 22:49 talENTsc wrote:
In general, is it safer to stay on two base while a p and t are still on one or should you continue expanding as you would? It seems that taking a 3rd as they secure their Nat leaves me somewhat behind, or just about even while taking a 3rd when they are still on one base leads to difficult defensive situations. Any tips?
Because your opponent is limited by the amount of mineral spots he can mine, You technically don't need more than 30 drones to be ahead of a 1 base player. When seeing someone do 1 base play I would wait on taking the third and try to find out what sort of all-in he is doing. During this time get up an adequate amount of drones start building the correct response. Also, a fair bit of this scouting comes when you send your drone; if you scout terran on 2 gas then you know he is going for banshees and you can either bane bust him, or go quick mutas (these are my preferences). If you can't get the scout in there then watching the front of his base will tell you a lot. How many marines he has, does he build the factory for the hellions, ect.
When playing against Protoss and you see 1 base play, I immediately assume 4 gate and then I keep scouting to make sure it isn't dts or Air play or w/e. With protoss you need to see what the second unit is. The first is going to be a zealot but the second should be a sentry, if it is a stalker then you have problems. Keep up on your scouting and make sure to not over drone here.
When the protoss goes for a 3 gate expo or w/e then taking the third when they take their nat and droning hard should put you way ahead. But this really depends on how many drones you have before you take your third.
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EPT
