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Bahamuth
134 Posts
On April 30 2012 18:22 KimJongChill wrote: Alright. Would you recommend a remax on hydras? Depending on how much time he gives you, if you can make like 18 muta's and max on lings, you can't really lose. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On April 30 2012 21:54 Belial88 wrote: I got a question: When is baneling bust ever like a solid idea, as opposed to a coinflip? Like, if you see someone going super fast third with an overlord scout, you can reactively go roach/bane rain all-in and win every time. But what about the standard bane bust where instead of going lair, at 40 supply you go 2nd gas baneling nest kill kill kill? I felt like if they opened 2 rax, it was a surefire way to win the game afterwards, but I dont think it's that straightforward... so was just wondering. 1 rax FE --> fast third CC (would need to get a lucky OL scout) 2 rax FE --> marine tank (skips hellions) -- you'd need to hit either before siege mode or when there's only 1 tank. 1 rax FE --> delayed banshee --> fast third CC (again, reliant on OL scout) any time you see a fast third CC you can punish with baneling bust, but the timings are wonky because Terran timings are weird. Not to mention, some Terrans will blindly anticipate a bust when they go fast third CC and build a bunch of bunkers. Some Terrans also 2 rax (then don't pressure, and just expand, to make you overreact) then build a mediocre wall to tempt you to bust, but they have bunkers behind it. Busting a Terran is really situational these days... I very rarely do it. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On April 30 2012 13:59 KimJongChill wrote: How the hell do you deal with a toss who just sits in their base until 160 food and pushes with stalker immortal sentry? They literally sit on 2 bases put on no aggression and push out at like 15min. I had a max roach army and 5 infestors 10 spinecrawlers and had just gotten a 4th base up x.x There's no way I can tech to broods that fast is there? Do I need to just go mass ling infestor instead? Mutas? God it's so frustrating to lose to someone who puts on no pressure, no scouting, and just a-moves a blob of the most disgustingly cost effective units. On smaller maps I go Ling/Bane rain, due to not having enough time to remax on roaches on shorter distances. On bigger maps, I go roach bane rain or roach infestor, keep up on upgrades, and just beat them with a remax. You have to engage them in the middle of the map, not at your base. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On April 30 2012 05:03 Usyless wrote: When protoss is trying to pylon block my natural, I'm inclined to take my third first, since it's economically superior to waiting for lings and then taking natural. However, I have to make this decision before I scout whether the protoss has gone a forge expand or gate core. If it's gate core, I have to be prepared for 4 gate, early stargate, dts, etc, with a very late gas and a second base very far from my main. Is there a good way to respond safely to the multiple possibilities? I've been drone scouting on 13 recently (instead of 9) and don't have a problem identifying if the toss is going FFE or 1base before expanding. A 9 scout will definitely cover all the spawns on even the biggest maps (tal darim and entombed valley) before you place a delayed natural at the third location. When I watch pro replays (a la liquid's weekly replay release) and the natural gets blocked I always see them get a queen and 2 sets of lings immediately as the drone meanders towards the third. This is a great way to spend the accumulating minerals while the drone moves to the next location (plus you were going to get them after the hatch anyway). | ||
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Riverhoover
Germany35 Posts
I'm sure you've heard this question a lot,but I wanna know what you can do NOT to have so much gas in the late game of ZvT..(same for ZvP I guess,but they always all in me,so it doesnt matter) Today I played a game vs. a meching Terran,I did play pretty good even though he bunker rushed me (3 bunkers,but pretty much no marines) and yeah..the game went on to like minute 30-35 and I had 7000 gas banked up,but didnt have any minerals. It may have been cause I didn't make any BL (since he had like 15 Vikings) or Ultras (cause I dont feel like they're that good vs. mech). What do you think about this? Another question: I prefer going Infestors over Muta in ZvT and my games always last for min. 20 minutes....I also find myself not knowing what to build once I have 3/4 bases (3 completely saturated,4th for gas/some drones). I usually build Infestors till I have like 8-10 and well...Zerglings of course..do you think I should go for Hive earlier? Like right when my Infestation Pit finishes? Also,what can I do to prevent him from getting his third up,since it is very hard to destroy once it's up. Last but not least: When going 15 Hatch (what I kinda always do in ZvZ) what's the best opening in general? 15/15/15? Or is there a better way? Thanks in advance for your help  | ||
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
On April 30 2012 19:30 ixi.genocide wrote: In that game you made a couple of mistakes and I think that the mutas were one of them. but first, You were behind on eco almost the entire time and it was mainly the two spines you made, you should have tried to get away w/out making two. You were late on your roach speed and late on your rw as well. When you attacked his third I would have pulled back after seeing like 4+ cannons. At that point you can look to attack at his nat and force him to pull his army and fight you there. After he retreated from killing your fourth you should have droned up your 3 bases fully. You were missing 12 drones from optimal saturation and then could have started to work on your 4th. You take a 5th base which is fine but I think 6 drones would have been better. I don't think this is a good map for mutas. Their isn't a lot of room to float between mineral lines and the protoss can blink around between the 3 bases fairly easily. I would have gone for infesters instead. I think the main thing to take away is you sat on 54 drones for way too long. Protoss is a lot more efficient than zerg and him having an even eco with you even when you have 75 drones is not good. There was no real point until the end where he was interrupted. You could have done more damage with your roach/ling at 13 mins. You could have droned adequately when he retreated at 11:30 and switching to mutas on double spire on cloud kindgom feels like a bad idea. You say to get infestors if you decide to go muta. I've tried doing roach infestor ling and it just doesn't work for me. I assume this is when you are trying to transition to broods? Because it always seems like there is some huge timing window where they can just roll in with their death ball and kill everything I have while I only take off 10-20 supply worth of units. | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On May 01 2012 05:19 Chinesewonder wrote: You say to get infestors if you decide to go muta. I've tried doing roach infestor ling and it just doesn't work for me. I assume this is when you are trying to transition to broods? Because it always seems like there is some huge timing window where they can just roll in with their death ball and kill everything I have while I only take off 10-20 supply worth of units. In those situations there is a good chance you ahve already lost, and without taking risks you are going to die to his push. While I can't truly tell what position you are in w/out a replay and we are generalizing here I would say that if you are even or ahead then you can effectively counter his unit comp while building towards endgame. If you are behind then you need to do more stuff to catch up. The best way for a zerg to catch up is to play greedy on bases and protect yourself from opponents harass or do something like drops. I feel that the 9-14 min mark decides most games for zerg and if you lose your hatch or can't deny/delay his third then you are behind and will need to get an advantage in another area. focus on getting ahead in one aspect while keeping the minimums in other areas. An example would be, while getting infesters and going for hive tech start making spines to ward off your opponent and drone up like mad. Eventually you will be able to spring back into unit production and hopefully come back. | ||
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Lord Zeya
United States82 Posts
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On May 01 2012 05:10 Riverhoover wrote: Another question: I prefer going Infestors over Muta in ZvT and my games always last for min. 20 minutes....I also find myself not knowing what to build once I have 3/4 bases (3 completely saturated,4th for gas/some drones). I usually build Infestors till I have like 8-10 and well...Zerglings of course..do you think I should go for Hive earlier? Like right when my Infestation Pit finishes? Also,what can I do to prevent him from getting his third up,since it is very hard to destroy once it's up. Last but not least: When going 15 Hatch (what I kinda always do in ZvZ) what's the best opening in general? 15/15/15? Or is there a better way? I'm also high plat and can definitely give you a hand with these two questions: 1). I also play an infestor-based ZvT. Choice of unit is dependent on what style you prefer, but I think it is much wiser to let the terran unit composition dictate this step. Before hive you want fast upgrades for melee. I follow blade's roach opener and it's been giving great results! I usually get the hive after I've spawned a bunch of infestors, but if I'm not being pressured I'll get it after a couple infestors. Hive should be faster because you want 3/3 and adrenaline glands ASAP. Choice of tier 3 tech is either broodlord or ultra. Ultras are great against very tank-heavy compositions without marauder support. Broodlords are great against everything as long as you can protect them with fungal, lings, and corruptors. Ultras are easiest to manage, but they're easily countered with marauders and stim. If you go broodlords make sure you have a bunch of corruptors and upgrade air since there will be at least one reactor-starport pumping out vikings. Sometimes you can switch from broods to ultras if, say, the terran has a TON of vikings sucking up supply. Anyway, Stephano took down Polt in the Lonestar Clash using broodlords, and since I've seen it in many other pro games it seems to be the preferred tier 3 unit. Infestors are necessary for both options, but the tradeoff to your high-tech zerg army is mobility. There was an IPL team event on Friday that showcased Lucifron using drops and nukes to pick apart an immobile zerg army. In some situations, like pure bio, I don't think it's a bad idea to stick on tier 2 tech. Infestor/crackling is fantastic against bio and it's made even better by banelings. Just remember to upgrade and keep scouting! 2). "Best" opening is completely dependent on your opponent. I go 15 hatch/17 gas/16pool in most situations, but I've been struggling against 14/14 baneling all-ins on smaller maps (Korhal Compound in particular), so an earlier pool seems like a good decision. I held off a 7 pool double spine rush on metalopolis last night (having to cancel hatch and put down emergency pool); belial's 6pool guide helps a lot with the nuances of this cheese. Ultimately, if you're going hatch first 14/14 is your natural enemy (this and 7 pool are almost exclusively the only strategies I play against). I've seen Machine go 15 hatch/16 gas/15 pool on his stream and will be reviewing plenty of zenio's openings from last weeks replay release. | ||
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LolitsPing
United States285 Posts
What is a general guide to reacting to a 1 gate opening in ZvP? | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On May 01 2012 12:47 LolitsPing wrote: Okay, I've recently hit a bunch of 1 gate openings recently, and due to the prevalence of FFE, I have no idea how to react when i see a 1 gate core opening. What is a general guide to reacting to a 1 gate opening in ZvP? This here will lead you to victory! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Hey there! First off: Im high Plat if it matters. I'm sure you've heard this question a lot,but I wanna know what you can do NOT to have so much gas in the late game of ZvT..(same for ZvP I guess,but they always all in me,so it doesnt matter) Today I played a game vs. a meching Terran,I did play pretty good even though he bunker rushed me (3 bunkers,but pretty much no marines) and yeah..the game went on to like minute 30-35 and I had 7000 gas banked up,but didnt have any minerals. It may have been cause I didn't make any BL (since he had like 15 Vikings) or Ultras (cause I dont feel like they're that good vs. mech). What do you think about this? Not enough larva, and most importantly, not enough drones. Sounds like you are sitting around 50-60 drones at best. That's what causes that problem. Maybe you get the right number of drones, but as the game goes extreme lategame and you lose drones making new bases, extractors, spines, spores, tech buildings like spire and ultra den and infestation pit, you don't replace them, and instead try to stay 200/200 with more broodlords. Better to have 80 drones and ~120 supply of army, then 60 drones and ~140 supply of army. Way better. Always replace drones in lategame, and whenever you mass spines. You aren't terran where you can't sac workers for mules. Another question: I prefer going Infestors over Muta in ZvT and my games always last for min. 20 minutes....I also find myself not knowing what to build once I have 3/4 bases (3 completely saturated,4th for gas/some drones). I usually build Infestors till I have like 8-10 and well...Zerglings of course..do you think I should go for Hive earlier? Like right when my Infestation Pit finishes? Also,what can I do to prevent him from getting his third up,since it is very hard to destroy once it's up. Infestor play tends to get a much faster hive than muta play, since you are basically being really defensive. You need to take way more bases too, never stop taking more bases. The return of 300 minerals on taking a new base is so large, and you can afford losing it by that point of the game. If T is playing right, you can't really deny the third. I don't know what to tell you, it's a complex question. If you scout him going fast third, or suspect it, a roach/bane all-in will kill him (~38 roach warren, 2nd and 3rd gas, make like 4 overlords and bank larva and money, dont make any more drones after making roach warren, then when it pops, make like 10 roaches all at once, throw down baneling nest, rally to opponents base, add in speedlings, morph into banes out front, push in). Usually you can't tell he's going fast third until it's too late (50+ supply), but you can just take your third and completely drone it up, then once at 70+ drones, just do lots of pressure with ling/bane/muta, roaches, or tech really quickly to hive. When going 15 Hatch (what I kinda always do in ZvZ) what's the best opening in general? 15/15/15? Or is there a better way? Standard is 15h/15p/15g, but people vary the gas timing (17 is greedy, 15 is safe), and pool timing (later than 15 is greedy) or order (gas before pool is greedier, 'better' against someone who is also hatch firsting i suppose). You just want to get as many lings as you need to hold the opponent off (if he makes 4 lings from a 14 pool and you see them run out with your overlord by his natural, you make 4 lings), then 2 queens and a spine. Hold position on the ramp with the queens until you get speed, then banelings, basically (you can figure out how to be a little greedier as you play it more, but even if he goes 14/14 expand, you can't tell if he's making pure speedling yet, and you really need that transfuse). If he doesnt expand by 21, make some more lings. How the hell do you deal with a toss who just sits in their base until 160 food and pushes with stalker immortal sentry? They literally sit on 2 bases put on no aggression and push out at like 15min. I had a max roach army and 5 infestors 10 spinecrawlers and had just gotten a 4th base up x.x There's no way I can tech to broods that fast is there? Do I need to just go mass ling infestor instead? Mutas? God it's so frustrating to lose to someone who puts on no pressure, no scouting, and just a-moves a blob of the most disgustingly cost effective units. If he's stuck on 2 base, mutas are a great option as long as you've held off his initial pressure without much damage. I really just always go mutas if he's stuck on 2 base, because if he ever moves out you totally win the base trade, but doing anything else could potentially leave you vulnerable to a strong push (infestors, hive, I would strongly recommend against a 2 base toss, because he's just massing army and you are teching too hard and may die if he hits at the right timing when your army is too small). A toss simply can't have enough to deal with 3 base muta if he's only on 2 base. He can't. You say to get infestors if you decide to go muta. I've tried doing roach infestor ling and it just doesn't work for me. I assume this is when you are trying to transition to broods? Because it always seems like there is some huge timing window where they can just roll in with their death ball and kill everything I have while I only take off 10-20 supply worth of units. Okay, I've recently hit a bunch of 1 gate openings recently, and due to the prevalence of FFE, I have no idea how to react when i see a 1 gate core opening. What is a general guide to reacting to a 1 gate opening in ZvP? Check out my guide, it will answer all of this in the 'strategy' section: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
I haven't played in a while but when I stopped playing the terrans weren't this gimmicky (tbh it always has been a gimmicky race, but the change a lot). | ||
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Hexadecimal
Canada55 Posts
I'm only focusing on ZvT right now. I have three questions regarding ZvT: 1) What are the current strong/standard builds in ZvT? 2) What are the current strong/standard unit composition in ZvT? 3) Can anyone link me to recent pro replays/replay packs of ZvT? Thanks in advance for any help. | ||
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Damnight
Germany222 Posts
I noticed that good players send their first two overlords to the opponents main base and the natural. The one at the main is for scouting purposes on any tech at a specific timing. The second one should scout the protoss' gas timing. Now, I do scout the gas timing but i actually don´t know what it means. If somebody could please list up the gas timing at the natural and the conclusion that results from it, I´ll be glad. For Example: 1 Gas at the natural @ 5:30 (or a certain timing) means Stargate or smth. I know it often depends on the individual match, because sometimes somthing unexpected happens. That being said, I don´t ned to know the exact time, but the timing! (I play at a level where builds are crisp enough (masters EU)) Thank you! P.S.: Sorry I´m still working on my English. | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On May 01 2012 18:13 Damnight wrote: Ok I got a question on the ZvP matchup. I noticed that good players send their first two overlords to the opponents main base and the natural. The one at the main is for scouting purposes on any tech at a specific timing. The second one should scout the protoss' gas timing. Now, I do scout the gas timing but i actually don´t know what it means. If somebody could please list up the gas timing at the natural and the conclusion that results from it, I´ll be glad. For Example: 1 Gas at the natural @ 5:30 (or a certain timing) means Stargate or smth. I know it often depends on the individual match, because sometimes somthing unexpected happens. That being said, I don´t ned to know the exact time, but the timing! (I play at a level where builds are crisp enough (masters EU)) Thank you! P.S.: Sorry I´m still working on my English. You have to assume that the toss has taken his two main gases because he needs those for his cyber core and ups. Because of this the gas timings at the natural are the 3rd and the 4th. We refer to them as 1 and 2 gas. If you see 0 gas at the natural by 6:30 mins (6 even) then you should assume that the toss is doing something like 6 gate +1 all-inning you. and your scout at the main will see that. If you see 1 gas then the toss is doing something relatively normal and if you scout 4 gas early then he is doing something tech heavy and you should prepare for air or DTs. When responding to Air, which is the most common between the two, you get the evo (until you have the experience to change this yourself this should go down at like 7:15) another queen or 2 and the spores you think are necessary. Then you can drone to 75 or w/e you want and transition appropriately. His VR is delaying his attack by a lot and you can use this to power. If you scout 0 gas then you need to get the rw down at like 7:00 or even a little earlier and start making roach/ling at the 8 minute mark delaying your lair and ups and only getting 3 gas. Use all the gas on the roaches and the left over minerals on lings obv. Once you hold his attack make a round of drones and get a fourth and start teching (unless you think you can kill him). Your opponent stopped at like 44 probes and you shooting up to 70 and a 4th will bury him. If you scout 1 gas early this is a tell that he is doing something normal. You should get 4 gas between 60 and 7:15 ( I get 2 at like 6:30 and then the other 2 shortly afterwards) rw, evo chamber, drone to 8 mins or so and then start producing units. Once the lair completes get roach speed. I like to go into muta out of roach ling so I get melee ups instead of missile and I go for a higher ling ratio and start working on my spire when I take my 6th gases, this is dependent on the game. Once you get the macro game you should be able to do something like>>> 15p 16-20h>> 24 send drone to take third, que up second queen and start ovie> when second is about to pop send down like 12 drones and with the larvae pop make all drones, this will put you at even saturation between the two bases. Your 3rd should pop at like 35-40f and you should have saturation on the 2 bases and rally everything to the third, two injects of larvae to the third and then rally all hatches to their own mineral line.>> take two gas at like 6-6:30>> get two gasses at nat at 7-7:30 when you get your rw and evo>> drone to 80 minutes while starting to make lots of ovies>> For gas, get ling speed then lair then ups. When you feel like you need to make units (should be around 8-8:20) get your roach/ling army going. You should be able to have about 70f by 8 mins and 124f (I always get supply blocked here) by 9 mins and 150ish by 10 mins. I like to get roach speed when lair pops and get up to 150ish food and make sure I can hold the toss push, then I take 5/6th gas and get my spire, get melee +2 and pressure the toss if he has backed off. Depending on how I feel about his army I will get another full round of drones while pushing out and take a 4th. Try to delay his third as much as possible while rebuilding with mainly lings and saving gas and food for muta. After I bring out my muta (10-15) I take a 5th and get the infestation pit. by this time I should be working on carapace and when air +1 is done I get +2. Keep the toss pinned on 2-3 base and work on hive. Most of the games about this time (15-16ish mins) the toss is pushing out for his last attempt to win and I destroy his army. When the game isn't going my favor I can usually tell during the roach/ling attack phase, You won't feel like you have the ability to get mutas and do damage, if that's the case I keep up the pressure while getting my 4th and eventually I am pushed back. At this point you need to play reactionary. Hope this kind of helped, good luck. EDIT: I should say that i build to like 30 muta and trade away my roaches completely. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On May 01 2012 16:59 Hexadecimal wrote: I've decided to start learning Zerg. The problem is that I'm not familiar with what the current "strong" builds or transitions are. I'm only focusing on ZvT right now. I have three questions regarding ZvT: 1) What are the current strong/standard builds in ZvT? 2) What are the current strong/standard unit composition in ZvT? 3) Can anyone link me to recent pro replays/replay packs of ZvT? Thanks in advance for any help. 1). I can't give you a large amount, but I've been following blade's guide for a 4-roach opener that takes an early third and then start chugging early upgrades into lair. 2). The two most common mid-game compositions are muta/ling/bane and infestor/ling. Tier 3 unit is either ultra or broodlord, though ultras are fairly easy to counter. 3). http://www.teamliquidpro.com/news/2012/04/26/razer-replaypack-of-the-week-32-zenio That's zenio's replay pack from last week. I haven't watched the ZvT replays myself, but there are 4 in the pack and that's certainly enough to get a feel for his play. Search Liquid's team page for other releases since zerg replays come out every two weeks or so. | ||
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Damnight
Germany222 Posts
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tehcaekftw
Denmark138 Posts
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