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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On May 03 2012 22:14 Frunkis wrote:
How do you scout a 2 rax? When do you send the drone and what exactly are you looking for?
Send a drone on 13 food. Scout his gasses straight away. If you see no gas check his entire main and then go check around his natural and the lower edges of his base. The most common 2 rax is the ones that are outside of his base but pretty close so he can fly them back quickly and safely.
If he is going CC first he most likely will build it on the low ground so you can poke his natural right before his first marine pops and confirm that. If you see a CC there make nothing but drones and queens for a good while. Put the drone at a xelnaga tower so you can see if he runs marine towards your base if you don't scout the CC. If you see a marine there is likely a proxy rax close to your base and you need to pull a drone to scout it and consecutively like 8 drones before he arrives. You can go home with your drone from the Xel naga tower after like 20 seconds if he hasn't shown a marine. Make 1 set of lings to confirm replace it as soon as you can just in case he is doing som kind of delayed 2 rax. Otherwise drone as much as you can.
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On May 03 2012 15:04 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:55 Belial88 wrote:
^ I don't think zvz is a garbage coinflip ;/
I got a question about zvz though:
1. How do you play against mutas, and how do you take your third against mutas if you go the non-muta route?
2. How do you decide to take your third?
Unlike the other match-ups, where you always take your third or whatever, in ZvZ, it seems it's so based on what composition the opponent is going, in order to get your third ;/
It is a garbage coinflip matchup because of the double inject randomness. There is actually no way to scout with accuracy unless you sneak lings into his base which he can easily deny if he's a skilled player. So many early game all ins can beat even the best pros. One inject cycle can be 8 drones, 8 roaches or 16 lings. Once you scout what it is he either allready has the advantage or disadvantage depending on what you did with your larvae. I think this is why you see so much ling/bane in top korean games, Because they know they are forcing a certain unit composition when they do it. So they can't be surprised by a sudden all in. That being said. There is a lot of skill involved in the matchup if it takes a standard route. Most games though are roach/bane all ins vs a muta rusher. Sometimes you see fast 3 base vs 2 base muta. 3 base player then gets fast infestors and tried to hold on without roaches (costs too much gas) long enough to get his econ uop. He then goes for something like a 1-1, 2-1 or 2-2 timing with infestor/roach/hydra. The muta players goal is to keep 3 base player in his bases. Get up to 4 bases and rush to ultras and infestors. Thus he spends very little gas for a very long time. Muta player wants to make as few banes early game as possible to get a good muta count fast. Muta player also wants to go for the 3rd base and possibly kill it if possible before the infestors get up and to a good count. If he kills it he will most likely do the tech switch to infestors off of 3 base instead of 4.
I disagree. It's really not THAT hard to scout an all in zvz. You should always have overlords in position to see drone count, sending a speedling or 2 into his base, yes odds are it'll die before it gets in but you will see stuff, units coming out of the eggs possibly, some hidden roaches. If you see low drones you should assume an all in is incoming, especially if it looks like you have quiet a few more.
If you scout an all in and just can't hold it, sounds like you are doing something very wrong. Unless you scout it coming when he's moving out then yeah you most likely die, but if you scout it before you should not die as you should be making spine crawlers as well if you have been droning.
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do u guys think its still possible to win a game after a 3 pylon ramp block with cannons? the 2-3 times i had to play this and didn't stop it i quitted the game.. what should i do? obviously i know that i should not permit it but if he are able to do it.. what do u do?
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Possible? yes. Difficult? definitely.
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How do you handle mutas if you scout them and don't have a quick 3rd? The best I can hope to do is get infestors out and hope I get lucky, but on only 4 gas it seems super risky to rely on a few fungals to catch them out of position while they take a 3rd and crush you with a roach switch.
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I'm new at TL and quite frankly, I dont have time to read through 250 sides of awesome text. This question has probably been asked before. ZvT and ZvP late game, how do I tackle it. It seems like, as soon as Terran or Protoss gets up their third base its game over. At least for me.
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On May 04 2012 03:59 Tribuno wrote:
do u guys think its still possible to win a game after a 3 pylon ramp block with cannons? the 2-3 times i had to play this and didn't stop it i quitted the game.. what should i do? obviously i know that i should not permit it but if he are able to do it.. what do u do?
It's possible, but tbh the protoss has to be kinda bad to lose imo. The 3 pylon block literally puts protoss way far ahead, they get their expansion almost done or done before you can even start yours. Let alone you have to make less drones so you can bust out thus leaving you even more behind economically. It's quiet silly how far behind this puts you, to prevent it you should always have a drone following the probe so you can prevent this.
There are 2 things you can do, you can go for fast nydus (somehow tosses still lose to this a lot no idea how but they do lol). Or you can do a baneling bust on the 3 pylons. I believe it is 4 banelings and the 3 pylons will die at the same time thus unpowering the cannon and you are free.
The problem is, no matter what toss is still going to be very far ahead economically so the way you go after that is up to you.
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On May 04 2012 05:54 ajizi wrote:
I'm new at TL and quite frankly, I dont have time to read through 250 sides of awesome text. This question has probably been asked before. ZvT and ZvP late game, how do I tackle it. It seems like, as soon as Terran or Protoss gets up their third base its game over. At least for me.
That's a pretty general question. But generally you'd want to delay the 3rd as long as you can (at least zvp) and then go brood lord/infestor as an end-game army.
Other than that, check out some guides for the match up.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=[g]+zvt
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=[g]+zvp
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On May 04 2012 05:25 Odal wrote:
How do you handle mutas if you scout them and don't have a quick 3rd? The best I can hope to do is get infestors out and hope I get lucky, but on only 4 gas it seems super risky to rely on a few fungals to catch them out of position while they take a 3rd and crush you with a roach switch.
I've found queens to be really good in this situation. Queens cost no gas and they do pretty well defensively against mutas. Use them to spawn a creep high way to a 3rd to be able to take it with spores/queens. Have some lings out on the map to deny him taking a 3rd.
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Hey guys. Master Zerg here.
I know that scouting a protoss's natural gas after a FFE is really helpful, but I'm not exactly familiar with the timings. I know the basics like if he has no gas, its probably some gateway allin, if he gets 2 really early ones, then probably stargate...
But any specifics?
For example, doe anyone know the specific natural gas timings when protoss is going:
1 Stargate
2 stargate
4 gate+1
Zealot with voidray to snipe third
6 gate blink
8 gate
some sort of robo build
etc?
any help would be greatly appreciated
Btw , PLEASEEEE dont just say, "early gas means stargates", or something like that, because I already know. I want alittle more specific timings so i can distinguish the builds better :D
THANKS 
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What exactly is being done now a days to deter hellion harass? Seems that I lose way to much to these hellions as they run straight to the back of my minerals. Should I be placing more than one spine? Getting a 4th queen? Is there really anyway to prevent pulling my drones behind my queen wall at the ramp? I feel like I'm missing something extremely important or completely ignoring something simple.
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In ZvT how do you take a third if they are going banshe? Also, how do you scout for banshee?
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On May 04 2012 03:36 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 15:04 StarBrift wrote:On May 03 2012 14:55 Belial88 wrote:
^ I don't think zvz is a garbage coinflip ;/
I got a question about zvz though:
1. How do you play against mutas, and how do you take your third against mutas if you go the non-muta route?
2. How do you decide to take your third?
Unlike the other match-ups, where you always take your third or whatever, in ZvZ, it seems it's so based on what composition the opponent is going, in order to get your third ;/
It is a garbage coinflip matchup because of the double inject randomness. There is actually no way to scout with accuracy unless you sneak lings into his base which he can easily deny if he's a skilled player. So many early game all ins can beat even the best pros. One inject cycle can be 8 drones, 8 roaches or 16 lings. Once you scout what it is he either allready has the advantage or disadvantage depending on what you did with your larvae. I think this is why you see so much ling/bane in top korean games, Because they know they are forcing a certain unit composition when they do it. So they can't be surprised by a sudden all in. That being said. There is a lot of skill involved in the matchup if it takes a standard route. Most games though are roach/bane all ins vs a muta rusher. Sometimes you see fast 3 base vs 2 base muta. 3 base player then gets fast infestors and tried to hold on without roaches (costs too much gas) long enough to get his econ uop. He then goes for something like a 1-1, 2-1 or 2-2 timing with infestor/roach/hydra. The muta players goal is to keep 3 base player in his bases. Get up to 4 bases and rush to ultras and infestors. Thus he spends very little gas for a very long time. Muta player wants to make as few banes early game as possible to get a good muta count fast. Muta player also wants to go for the 3rd base and possibly kill it if possible before the infestors get up and to a good count. If he kills it he will most likely do the tech switch to infestors off of 3 base instead of 4. I disagree. It's really not THAT hard to scout an all in zvz. You should always have overlords in position to see drone count, sending a speedling or 2 into his base, yes odds are it'll die before it gets in but you will see stuff, units coming out of the eggs possibly, some hidden roaches. If you see low drones you should assume an all in is incoming, especially if it looks like you have quiet a few more. If you scout an all in and just can't hold it, sounds like you are doing something very wrong. Unless you scout it coming when he's moving out then yeah you most likely die, but if you scout it before you should not die as you should be making spine crawlers as well if you have been droning.
My beef is not with the fact that you can die to all ins. I almost never do since I play relatively safe based on what I scout. My beef is with the people that make like 12 drones in a row without me letting them scout and then getting an advantage purely based on flipping the coin. Sure I won't die anytime soon but I'll get into the midgame with a significant disadvantage. As a result I have to kind of metagame and predict what my opponent will do and either respond by even greedier play or go for a suitable all in. You really can't play mirror builds from 10 drones behing in a matchup where battles are mostly won by sheer numbers and tech timings.
Sure if I'm twice as good as my opponent I win by doing zergling counters to pick off workers, faking pressure and cutting smaller corners and be ok due to his lack of multitasking / macro.
The only reason why I think its hurting pro players isn't that they die to all ins a lot. It's that the double inject randomness forces overly safe play and when someone takes a stupid risk like mass droning it gives that person an unfair advantage. Foreigners do this senseless mass droning more than koreans. Koreans usually have poke timings or fake aggression almost constantly during the early game that keep each other honest. But I can do that vs a masters player on EU and he will not understand it and still just go for his unsafe opening. Be it a mindless all in or 30 sec of pure droning exactly at the +1 roach timing moment or something.
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Alright, well I've been trying to get a build order learned for each matchup as Z, as everyone suggests to do so as a mid-range player. I've looked around for different build orders, but I'm really just looking for a simple set of them.
What would you guys consider to be a good set of build orders for each matchup at the high gold/mid plat range? I'd rather not have answers like "well, you could do BO1 OR BO2," as I really don't have the knowledge to be able to judge which one is really better. Whether there is a definitive best opener or not, I'm really just looking for some definitive answers, so I can get a good foundation up and going as soon as possible.
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I have been having trouble with the 8-10 minute toss timings lately and was wondering if there is a place for hyrdas in defending this. I was watching some recent Day9 dailies where he quickly mentioned that how great would it be if you had a hyrda den for this robo sentry push? I know hyrdas are often regarded as a very crap unit but it seems like to me they could be very useful in holding later, more robo based toss pushes and even help with blink stalker +2 all ins. Do any pros use hyrdas for this kind of defense/counter attack?
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On May 04 2012 05:25 Odal wrote:
How do you handle mutas if you scout them and don't have a quick 3rd? The best I can hope to do is get infestors out and hope I get lucky, but on only 4 gas it seems super risky to rely on a few fungals to catch them out of position while they take a 3rd and crush you with a roach switch.
Hi, I always do roach/infestor every zvz and lately I could handle mutas pretty well. In order to beat zerg who goes mutas you definitely need a third base, so you need to prepare for it from the early game. Create creeps to connect your natural to your third, get 4 gas as soon as possible and once you get to lair tech build an infestation pit and research adrenal gland afterward. Once you scout a spire, stop roach production, create 6 queens, spores and build your third, don't overproduce spore though since they are too expensive, I think 2 spore per base is enough. Now use the queens and the spore to defend as welll as guarding the third while it's building, meanwhile create infestors and time them to pop out after the adrenal gland research is finished. You gonna need both infestor and queens to completely destroy the muta flock in order to gain back map control, once those mutas are destroyed you can proceed playing normally, your opponent most probably will tech switch into roach/infestor route too after seeing your infestors.
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If terran do something like one rax into expand then pressure with early hellions. When should I take my third? I keep having this problem, droning up three bases and then he comes with his two base push and I have like 10 lings and 6 mutas maybe. Depending on what I'm going of course.
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^ Don't drone up 3 bases. If you get speed early enough, you can make speedlings at ~50+ supply to deal with his hellions (move one of the 1-2 spines you made to third, don't put drones at third until hellions are deat with).
So 'standard' macro hatch is ~45 supply right. Well, if T didn't go reactor hellion expand, make it the third. You should be sac'ing an overlod ~40 supply to make sure he isn't going banshees (which would require evo after 40) or doing something equally silly like 3 fact 2 react/1tech on 2 base after fast CC or mass 4-5 rax marine push after fast expand (which would require bane nest after 40). If you notice he's playing fairly standard but also getting hellions after that fast CC, you can react with speedlings in a number enough that can deal with it (reactor hellion, you really can't get enough lings that it wouldnt hurt your drone count until after 2 base full saturation, so have to take third after 2 base lair with macro hatch, but against fast cc, you can take the third as long as you respond to what he's doing with 40 supply overlord sac and respond accordingly).
You really shouldn't drone up the third until you can rule out a 2 base all-in (get the increased econ by maynarding 8/24 workers at your 2 bases, to the third, so you ahve better econ with same number of workers as 2 base by better saturation), and then drone up the third (or rather, get more than ~55 drones) once you realize what T is doing and taht you can handle it.
There's also that popular roach expand play, but I pretty much stick to ling/bane/muta. This is just how I see it.
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Hey, my issue was that I constantly miss injecting, how do I not miss these? what exactly should I have hotkeyed ? and how do "cycle" through stuff ?
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On May 04 2012 22:44 Stantard wrote:
Hey, my issue was that I constantly miss injecting, how do I not miss these? what exactly should I have hotkeyed ? and how do "cycle" through stuff ?
Personally, I hotkey all my hatches on 4, my larvae queens on 5, and then screen hotkey all my hatches on F1-F4 (and shift+F1-F4 if I need them). Then you can simply hit 5, F1, v, click your hatch, F2, v, click your hatch, etc..
You can do this incredibly fast because you just have to click on the same place on your screen each inject.
The advantage, I feel, of having your queens hotkeyed is that you can click on the same place on your screen for each hatch, and not have to instead screen hotkey (or double tap numbers), move your mouse to your queen, click, hit v, click your hatch, then do that for each hatch.
You can use the above method to inject 4 hatches in literally 0.5 or 0.75 seconds once you get the muscle memory for it down (and it doesn't take long).
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EPT
