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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On May 05 2012 16:03 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 15:33 uLaLuLaLume wrote:On May 05 2012 00:32 Macpo wrote:On May 04 2012 06:14 blade55555 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:59 Tribuno wrote:
do u guys think its still possible to win a game after a 3 pylon ramp block with cannons? the 2-3 times i had to play this and didn't stop it i quitted the game.. what should i do? obviously i know that i should not permit it but if he are able to do it.. what do u do? It's possible, but tbh the protoss has to be kinda bad to lose imo. The 3 pylon block literally puts protoss way far ahead, they get their expansion almost done or done before you can even start yours. Let alone you have to make less drones so you can bust out thus leaving you even more behind economically. It's quiet silly how far behind this puts you, to prevent it you should always have a drone following the probe so you can prevent this. There are 2 things you can do, you can go for fast nydus (somehow tosses still lose to this a lot no idea how but they do lol). Or you can do a baneling bust on the 3 pylons. I believe it is 4 banelings and the 3 pylons will die at the same time thus unpowering the cannon and you are free. The problem is, no matter what toss is still going to be very far ahead economically so the way you go after that is up to you. Does that mean you should always put a drone at the back of the probe? cause that feels a bit annoying... I would like to know more! cause I used to make a 2 hatch - 1 base all in after this kind of block, but now they are usually reinforcing the wall, when I start killing with some roaches from high ground, forcing me to reveal the ur all in before it actually hits their base..., so I am not sure about what to do in this regard... Why not simply employ the Drone drill method? Via this method, anytime a Toss goes for 3-Pylon ramp block, it's an auto-win for me...esp. if said Toss expends/wastes even more resources in trying to get Cannons up behind the Pylons. This doesn't work on all maps and not in all positions. At least not for me  .
On some maps (like Ohana and Korhal off the top of my head), you have to drone drill by clicking the minerals on the third, not the natural. It's really annoying cause you need to set location hotkeys, and quickly switch between the third and ramp. Snute made a post about this.
On March 28 2012 05:20 Snute wrote:
You need to use the minerals in the 3rd base and camera hotkeys for the drone drill.
Patrol drone is the easy fix. Drone drill with camera hotkeys is for the true nerd ballers.
Step by step guide.
- Spot the 3-pylon block with your 2nd overlord.
- Select all drones, just a-move them close to the pylons or something, move on -
- Move screen view to your own natural 3rd base asap.
- Position your camera so that the mineral patch in the korhal 3rd is somewhat to the bottom right/top left on your screen.
- Put the mouse over the mineral patch and SAVE F-CAMERA HOTKEY 1.
- Click DRAG SCROLL (middle mouse button) and move with your mouse all the way to the pylonblock.
- Let go of the mouse scroll on top of the pylon you want to break. DO NOT MOVE YOUR MOUSE.
- If you missed on the central pylon, hold down drag scroll once more and position the mouse over the pylon.
- When the cursor is successfully in position, SAVE F-CAMERA HOTKEY 2. DO NOT MOVE YOUR MOUSE.
You are now ready to break the block.
- Hit F-camera hotkey 1 with all your drones selected, landing you in your natural 3rd.
- Your mouse is over the mineral patch. Right-click the mineral patch once, then hold down shift and spamclick it a few times.
- Let go of shift.
- Hit F-camera hotkey 2 once and RIGHT-CLICK the pylon. You are still not moving your mouse and shouldn't be.
- Repeat these steps until the contain is broken.
edit: just want to get it out there that this is how you solve metalopolis and shattered temple blocks, too. either way this is the best method to use, it grants you the most DPS if you execute it without flaw.
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How should I respond to terran building an ebay to block my natural
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On May 04 2012 10:26 FindMuck wrote:Hey guys. Master Zerg here. I know that scouting a protoss's natural gas after a FFE is really helpful, but I'm not exactly familiar with the timings. I know the basics like if he has no gas, its probably some gateway allin, if he gets 2 really early ones, then probably stargate... But any specifics? For example, doe anyone know the specific natural gas timings when protoss is going: 1 Stargate 2 stargate 4 gate+1 Zealot with voidray to snipe third 6 gate blink 8 gate some sort of robo build etc? any help would be greatly appreciated Btw , PLEASEEEE dont just say, "early gas means stargates", or something like that, because I already know. I want alittle more specific timings so i can distinguish the builds better :D THANKS 
Quoting this because nobody answered and it really needs answering since it would help any zerg know the dangerous timings to watch for ZvP.
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On May 05 2012 16:03 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 15:33 uLaLuLaLume wrote:On May 05 2012 00:32 Macpo wrote:On May 04 2012 06:14 blade55555 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:59 Tribuno wrote:
do u guys think its still possible to win a game after a 3 pylon ramp block with cannons? the 2-3 times i had to play this and didn't stop it i quitted the game.. what should i do? obviously i know that i should not permit it but if he are able to do it.. what do u do? It's possible, but tbh the protoss has to be kinda bad to lose imo. The 3 pylon block literally puts protoss way far ahead, they get their expansion almost done or done before you can even start yours. Let alone you have to make less drones so you can bust out thus leaving you even more behind economically. It's quiet silly how far behind this puts you, to prevent it you should always have a drone following the probe so you can prevent this. There are 2 things you can do, you can go for fast nydus (somehow tosses still lose to this a lot no idea how but they do lol). Or you can do a baneling bust on the 3 pylons. I believe it is 4 banelings and the 3 pylons will die at the same time thus unpowering the cannon and you are free. The problem is, no matter what toss is still going to be very far ahead economically so the way you go after that is up to you. Does that mean you should always put a drone at the back of the probe? cause that feels a bit annoying... I would like to know more! cause I used to make a 2 hatch - 1 base all in after this kind of block, but now they are usually reinforcing the wall, when I start killing with some roaches from high ground, forcing me to reveal the ur all in before it actually hits their base..., so I am not sure about what to do in this regard... Why not simply employ the Drone drill method? Via this method, anytime a Toss goes for 3-Pylon ramp block, it's an auto-win for me...esp. if said Toss expends/wastes even more resources in trying to get Cannons up behind the Pylons. This doesn't work on all maps and not in all positions. At least not for me .
In my personal experience, it has always worked. Sometimes clicking on the minerals at your natural will not suffice (it all depends on positioning; i.e., the direction your Drones are to drill in, relative to the location of the minerals you're clicking on), so you'll have to click on a mineral patch somewhere else on the map. This means your Drones won't be visible on your screen (except on minimap), so you'll have to learn the timing in terms of when your Drones are stacked and in the desired arrangement subsequent to clicking on a mineral patch way off somewhere on the map, and a-clicking at this moment, despite the only visibility of your Drones being their movements on the minimap.
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On May 06 2012 02:11 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 10:26 FindMuck wrote:Hey guys. Master Zerg here. I know that scouting a protoss's natural gas after a FFE is really helpful, but I'm not exactly familiar with the timings. I know the basics like if he has no gas, its probably some gateway allin, if he gets 2 really early ones, then probably stargate... But any specifics? For example, doe anyone know the specific natural gas timings when protoss is going: 1 Stargate 2 stargate 4 gate+1 Zealot with voidray to snipe third 6 gate blink 8 gate some sort of robo build etc? any help would be greatly appreciated Btw , PLEASEEEE dont just say, "early gas means stargates", or something like that, because I already know. I want alittle more specific timings so i can distinguish the builds better :D THANKS Quoting this because nobody answered and it really needs answering since it would help any zerg know the dangerous timings to watch for ZvP.
People keep asking (I've seen this question in other threads), and I keep saying that there are no set timings. We cannot know EXACTLY what the protoss is spending his gas on unless we either see the units (i.e. sentries) or see the tech. Therefore, we have to infer based upon the information given.
Seeing 0 gas at nat (assuming 2 gas in main) is MOST LIKELY (as in, 90% of the time) some kind of gateway pressure. But it could also be single SG. You need to also OL scout at around 7:30 as well as check the front for any sort of early +1 upgrade, which would indicate a zealot timing.
Seeing 2 gas at nat is almost always SG play/DTs (DTs are rare, though). However, it could also be a very sentry heavy oriented attack, so again, OL scout and count gateways!
Seeing 1 gas at nat could be anything, what I use as a sort of tell is what unit he attacks/kills my OL at the nat with. If it's a sentry, it's PROBABLY a gateway timing with sentries. If it's a stalker it's some kind of tech play, whether it be SG, DTs, or blink timing.
It's all about how well you can scout and if you get lucky with your OL scout in the main. As long as your macro benchmarks on 3 hatch are tight, you SHOULD be able to defend most attacks as long as you see them in time, so remember to clear watch towers and keep a ling to see if he moves out, and a ling to see if he's taking a third. Taking a third means less units, no third means committed 2 base all in.
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How do you hold a 14/14 bane all in with a 14/14/21 expo, taking all drones off gas?
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On May 06 2012 02:30 Host- wrote:
How do you hold a 14/14 bane all in with a 14/14/21 expo, taking all drones off gas?
Spines, queens, transfuse, and good micro.
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On May 06 2012 03:18 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 02:30 Host- wrote:
How do you hold a 14/14 bane all in with a 14/14/21 expo, taking all drones off gas? Spines, queens, transfuse, and good micro.
Hits just before hatch hatches so I cant have my spine down, don't think I can have 2 queens unless i rush for the,
If I inject first theres no way I can have a transfuse.
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Just decided to learn some Zerg. Was plat Toss; around silver level as Zerg. I just need some basic openers and general tips on the fundamentals. When do you make the first and second overlord? When do you take gas, etc.?
Thanx in advance =)
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On May 06 2012 05:17 Tzuborg wrote:
Just decided to learn some Zerg. Was plat Toss; around silver level as Zerg. I just need some basic openers and general tips on the fundamentals. When do you make the first and second overlord? When do you take gas, etc.?
Thanx in advance =)
First overlord is at 9, your second should be 16. Gas depends on the match up, but against toss you're gassless if you triple hatch. Against terran, you can get your first gas at 17 so you can rush speed. Build is 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas. ZvZ is had to say, because I do it by feel :s
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On May 06 2012 03:21 Host- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 03:18 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 06 2012 02:30 Host- wrote:
How do you hold a 14/14 bane all in with a 14/14/21 expo, taking all drones off gas? Spines, queens, transfuse, and good micro. Hits just before hatch hatches so I cant have my spine down, don't think I can have 2 queens unless i rush for the, If I inject first theres no way I can have a transfuse.
You have to put pressure with your speedlings from the very moment you have them: to kill his banelings or prevent them to morph, slow down his attacks, while planting down your spine at natural. In worst situations, go for base trade. If you are not active with speedlings, he will just crush you with his banes...
This is very micro intensive but well done it can work.
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I'm not entirely sure why i lost this ZvP on Cloud Kingdom. Usually on ZvP i like going DRG style roach/ling/muta but mutas are ass on CK so i decided to go roach infestor. I (almost) max on roach/infestor/ling and attack him, and i trade relatively okay. I keep making roaches and engage him again, and trade okay again (i'm preserving my infestors well too). Right as I try to transition into broodlord/infestor he just attacks with +2 colossus/blink stalker and rofl stomps me. I"m having a really difficult time (in general) getting the transition into broodlord/infestor down right, because it seems like half the time i do it i die to a ridiculous timing attack like that. I'm thinking maybe after my first attack or so i should have just turtled into BL/infestor, but then i have the problem of having a bunch of supply tied up in roaches that i can't suicide since he'll just attack immediately, but if i keep them then they continue to tie up supply... I just don't know, I'm so lost in this matchup when i can't go mutas.
I admit my mindset in ZvP is really bad (like Idra bad except i'm 1/1000000th the player Idra is) but I really don't know what i did wrong decisionmaking wise (i had macro issues but i'm only in plat, i'm constantly working on those issues, and i'm pretty sure i macroed better than the protoss player anyway).
http://drop.sc/172247
(reposted from last page, since it was at the bottom and was probably overlooked)
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On May 06 2012 05:17 Tzuborg wrote:
Just decided to learn some Zerg. Was plat Toss; around silver level as Zerg. I just need some basic openers and general tips on the fundamentals. When do you make the first and second overlord? When do you take gas, etc.?
Thanx in advance =)
-The basis of zerg getting as much drones as possible while scouting all around the map to know what your opponent is doing, and if he's going to attack.
-If your opponent decides to attack, you must find out how much units you need to defend and if you need any special tech. For example if a protoss decides to perform a 3-gate void ray all-in you need to have units to kill the zealots, stalkers and sentries, as well as having a suitable answer to the void rays that are going to accompany the protoss' ground army
-When you get to a suitable zerg economy (usually 3 bases with 16 on minerals, 6 on gas) you start making decisions on whether you want to tech up, attack, or begin to get a larger eco by taking a fourth
-General openers for each MU are 15hatch,14pool for ZVT. 15hatch,16OV,16Queen and 2 lings>>natural expo for ZVP, and the safest ZVZ build is 14gas14pool.
-Unless you want to extractor trick or 10 Pool first OV is made@9 supply, usually., then the second one is made@16 supply, in most cases
-Taking gas generally depends on when you want to have speed/lair starting, and as that varies upon each MU I won't go further.
Since your starting out i'll just mention if you take gas for speed alone remove guys off the extractor when you reach 100 gas for the speed, and resume once it completes
Remember, in the early game it's your opponent who dictates how the game will flow, and you have to adjust accordingly or you will fall behind, or even lose the game. ZVZ is a different scenario where one player will have to choose how the game will flow. Since I recommended to you the 14gas 14pool build for ZVZ, you will have to play according to what your opponent is doing.
Just ask more questions if you don't get something
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On May 06 2012 06:25 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 03:21 Host- wrote:On May 06 2012 03:18 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 06 2012 02:30 Host- wrote:
How do you hold a 14/14 bane all in with a 14/14/21 expo, taking all drones off gas? Spines, queens, transfuse, and good micro. Hits just before hatch hatches so I cant have my spine down, don't think I can have 2 queens unless i rush for the, If I inject first theres no way I can have a transfuse. You have to put pressure with your speedlings from the very moment you have them: to kill his banelings or prevent them to morph, slow down his attacks, while planting down your spine at natural. In worst situations, go for base trade. If you are not active with speedlings, he will just crush you with his banes... This is very micro intensive but well done it can work.
Cheers, I had a feeling that might be it, but it never quite triggered that I was definitely the reason...even though its how I lose when I 14/14 bane all in -.-
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On May 06 2012 06:49 Monsyphon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 05:17 Tzuborg wrote:
Just decided to learn some Zerg. Was plat Toss; around silver level as Zerg. I just need some basic openers and general tips on the fundamentals. When do you make the first and second overlord? When do you take gas, etc.?
Thanx in advance =) -The basis of zerg getting as much drones as possible while scouting all around the map to know what your opponent is doing, and if he's going to attack. -If your opponent decides to attack, you must find out how much units you need to defend and if you need any special tech. For example if a protoss decides to perform a 3-gate void ray all-in you need to have units to kill the zealots, stalkers and sentries, as well as having a suitable answer to the void rays that are going to accompany the protoss' ground army -When you get to a suitable zerg economy (usually 3 bases with 16 on minerals, 6 on gas) you start making decisions on whether you want to tech up, attack, or begin to get a larger eco by taking a fourth -General openers for each MU are 15hatch,14pool for ZVT. 15hatch,16OV,16Queen and 2 lings>>natural expo for ZVP, and the safest ZVZ build is 14gas14pool. -Unless you want to extractor trick or 10 Pool first OV is made@9 supply, usually., then the second one is made@16 supply, in most cases -Taking gas generally depends on when you want to have speed/lair starting, and as that varies upon each MU I won't go further. Since your starting out i'll just mention if you take gas for speed alone remove guys off the extractor when you reach 100 gas for the speed, and resume once it completes Remember, in the early game it's your opponent who dictates how the game will flow, and you have to adjust accordingly or you will fall behind, or even lose the game. ZVZ is a different scenario where one player will have to choose how the game will flow. Since I recommended to you the 14gas 14pool build for ZVZ, you will have to play according to what your opponent is doing. Just ask more questions if you don't get something
Um if you want the actual most general openers:
You should be going 15 hatch, 15 pool (or 16 pool or 17 pool if you are like DRG) in ZvT
You should be going 14/15p, 16h in ZvP
And the ZvZ one is fine.
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I am just totally lost against mutas.
How do you guys deal with mutas? What do you do?
I generally try to counter muta play by going later lair, defending with a spore and queen, and then counter-attacking with a much larger muta ball made from my stronger econ. But a lot of games, I already got +1 and some roaches, maybe even started my third, before they show signs of going muta, and then, muta is no longer an option for me.
I have no idea what to do. I recall losing against fast third into mass roach when I did lots of 2 base muta, but it doesn't seem to really work for me, I just get torn up by the mutas as they get really big in flock size and I can't do damage and I'm too all-in and behind in drones.
I find a big problem in my replays is that okay, my macro is good, then I find out mutas are on the way, and bam my macro goes to shit as I struggle to get infestors, spores, queens, drones, a third, all at the same time.
So yea. I'm just a bit lost on how to defend against mutas, and get your third up, and deny their third.
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On May 06 2012 19:36 Belial88 wrote:
I am just totally lost against mutas.
How do you guys deal with mutas? What do you do?
I generally try to counter muta play by going later lair, defending with a spore and queen, and then counter-attacking with a much larger muta ball made from my stronger econ. But a lot of games, I already got +1 and some roaches, maybe even started my third, before they show signs of going muta, and then, muta is no longer an option for me.
I have no idea what to do. I recall losing against fast third into mass roach when I did lots of 2 base muta, but it doesn't seem to really work for me, I just get torn up by the mutas as they get really big in flock size and I can't do damage and I'm too all-in and behind in drones.
I find a big problem in my replays is that okay, my macro is good, then I find out mutas are on the way, and bam my macro goes to shit as I struggle to get infestors, spores, queens, drones, a third, all at the same time.
So yea. I'm just a bit lost on how to defend against mutas, and get your third up, and deny their third.
If you're still trying to get your third up while being harassed by a large flock of mutas then you're taking your third too late. Unless you're doing some sort of massive 2 base timing or quick teching to muta/infestor yourself, your third should be done by the time the first mutas pop. If you made a lot of roaches, you can delay him a little by attacking. Ultimately you can't stop him from getting up a third, but you should be able to stay at least even and probably ahead of him economically for a long time with your earlier third and a good defense of spore/queen/infestor, or a pack of hydras. Once you have 2/2 upgrades and a lot of roach'infestor/hydra, you can attack and usually win if you didn't take too much damage from the mutas,
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On May 07 2012 01:50 Usyless wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 19:36 Belial88 wrote:
I am just totally lost against mutas.
How do you guys deal with mutas? What do you do?
I generally try to counter muta play by going later lair, defending with a spore and queen, and then counter-attacking with a much larger muta ball made from my stronger econ. But a lot of games, I already got +1 and some roaches, maybe even started my third, before they show signs of going muta, and then, muta is no longer an option for me.
I have no idea what to do. I recall losing against fast third into mass roach when I did lots of 2 base muta, but it doesn't seem to really work for me, I just get torn up by the mutas as they get really big in flock size and I can't do damage and I'm too all-in and behind in drones.
I find a big problem in my replays is that okay, my macro is good, then I find out mutas are on the way, and bam my macro goes to shit as I struggle to get infestors, spores, queens, drones, a third, all at the same time.
So yea. I'm just a bit lost on how to defend against mutas, and get your third up, and deny their third. If you're still trying to get your third up while being harassed by a large flock of mutas then you're taking your third too late. Unless you're doing some sort of massive 2 base timing or quick teching to muta/infestor yourself, your third should be done by the time the first mutas pop. If you made a lot of roaches, you can delay him a little by attacking. Ultimately you can't stop him from getting up a third, but you should be able to stay at least even and probably ahead of him economically for a long time with your earlier third and a good defense of spore/queen/infestor, or a pack of hydras. Once you have 2/2 upgrades and a lot of roach'infestor/hydra, you can attack and usually win if you didn't take too much damage from the mutas,
This post for the most part although I disagree with you winning most of the time with a 2/2 roach/hydra/infestor timing. Normally the muta player should have a good transition as going muta's and not doing damage doesn't put them behind. It secures them a third and they can drone safely for a little bit and normally get the third saturated and going before the other zerg due to the other zerg having to make spores + queens so they can't afford to fully saturate their third until they are secure.
Going for the third before lair then going mutalisks is also kinda bad in zvz I am pretty sure as I see nobody do that. If you go muta you should do 2 base, scout with 1 speedling and if you see roaches out or a roach warren you should be making some spines as that is the only way you can hold is with about 6 spines and mutalisks should almost be ready or ready to be morphed. You should have lings as well so that he can't just run past the spine crawlers with a few banes incase he makes banelings as well.
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On May 06 2012 19:36 Belial88 wrote:
I am just totally lost against mutas.
How do you guys deal with mutas? What do you do?
I generally try to counter muta play by going later lair, defending with a spore and queen, and then counter-attacking with a much larger muta ball made from my stronger econ. But a lot of games, I already got +1 and some roaches, maybe even started my third, before they show signs of going muta, and then, muta is no longer an option for me.
I have no idea what to do. I recall losing against fast third into mass roach when I did lots of 2 base muta, but it doesn't seem to really work for me, I just get torn up by the mutas as they get really big in flock size and I can't do damage and I'm too all-in and behind in drones.
I find a big problem in my replays is that okay, my macro is good, then I find out mutas are on the way, and bam my macro goes to shit as I struggle to get infestors, spores, queens, drones, a third, all at the same time.
So yea. I'm just a bit lost on how to defend against mutas, and get your third up, and deny their third.
Your third is too slow.
I didn't realize how slow my thirds were until I noticed how much earlier pro zergs had a third up against muta play, and I never did. You should have enough time to see the mutas and set up spores at your third and main, which are the two main harass points.
The reason your macro goes to shit is because your multitasking must not be that good. Note, I'm not calling you a bad player by any means, but going muta in SC2 is basically saying: "Okay, my army is going to be weaker for a while, but I'm going to out multitask my opponent by a good enough degree that I can make up the deficit". So how do you beat this? Well, get better multitasking! Don't panic and start dropping 3 spores at every base and a queen at each hatch, you'll screw up your econ. Start with 2 spores at the third, and 1 in the main. That, along with 3 queens (and soon a 4th one at your third) along with creep (SO many zergs don't creep spread in zvz, I have no idea why, at least connect your first 3 bases) should hold off the initial 8 or so mutas. As the ball increases, you add on spores, queens, get 2/2 ups, and infestation pit. I find that I don't need more than 5 gases while going roach/queen/infestor, the 6th gas tends to make me bank too much gas. Max out on roach/infestor/queen (about 8-10 queens, 6-8 infestors, rest roaches) and aim to hit the moment 2/2 ups are done. Hit your transfuses/fungals and you win.
I'm in high diamond with low masters MMR, and I can't even remember the last time I lost to scouted mutas after I figured out my third was so late (the 2 or so times I lost was me forgetting to overseer scout, and getting blindsided by like 15 mutas t.t)
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EPT
