|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On May 06 2012 06:49 Monsyphon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 05:17 Tzuborg wrote:
Just decided to learn some Zerg. Was plat Toss; around silver level as Zerg. I just need some basic openers and general tips on the fundamentals. When do you make the first and second overlord? When do you take gas, etc.?
Thanx in advance =) -The basis of zerg getting as much drones as possible while scouting all around the map to know what your opponent is doing, and if he's going to attack. -If your opponent decides to attack, you must find out how much units you need to defend and if you need any special tech. For example if a protoss decides to perform a 3-gate void ray all-in you need to have units to kill the zealots, stalkers and sentries, as well as having a suitable answer to the void rays that are going to accompany the protoss' ground army -When you get to a suitable zerg economy (usually 3 bases with 16 on minerals, 6 on gas) you start making decisions on whether you want to tech up, attack, or begin to get a larger eco by taking a fourth -General openers for each MU are 15hatch,14pool for ZVT. 15hatch,16OV,16Queen and 2 lings>>natural expo for ZVP, and the safest ZVZ build is 14gas14pool. -Unless you want to extractor trick or 10 Pool first OV is made@9 supply, usually., then the second one is made@16 supply, in most cases -Taking gas generally depends on when you want to have speed/lair starting, and as that varies upon each MU I won't go further. Since your starting out i'll just mention if you take gas for speed alone remove guys off the extractor when you reach 100 gas for the speed, and resume once it completes Remember, in the early game it's your opponent who dictates how the game will flow, and you have to adjust accordingly or you will fall behind, or even lose the game. ZVZ is a different scenario where one player will have to choose how the game will flow. Since I recommended to you the 14gas 14pool build for ZVZ, you will have to play according to what your opponent is doing. Just ask more questions if you don't get something
Thanx a lot.
Also, what's the point of going banelings in ZvZ, as opposed to going roaches? Roaches owns banelings and do decent vs zerglings, don't they?
I still don't understand this race =P
|
It's often difficult to get a critical mass of roaches to defend your natural, as before this critical mass the other player can simply mass speedlings and have map control for a very long time. With speedling/baneling he will have to fight you for map control. The disadvantage to speedling/baneling is it is very micro intensive, and one mistake can cost you the game almost no matter how far ahead you were. Of course you do eventually want to get roaches but most of the time you need to have banes to be safe.
I think blade55555 wrote a roach based ZvZ opener guide but I'm not sure how up to date it is. If you don't like doing speedling/baneling micro roaches are probably viable at most skill levels but i'm not sure since I've been doing speedling/baneling based earlygame ZvZ forever.
|
I just played an extremely annoying game where i couldnt put down my natural hatchery because of a engi bay block in a game of ZvT. He opened reactor hellion and because i had no creep because of my late natural i got completely run over by just 4 hellions, im pretty frustrated and want to punch the wall right now.
Whats the optimal way to deal with a hatchery denial from terran?
Replay: http://drop.sc/173989
|
On May 07 2012 06:57 Xelyxiz wrote:I just played an extremely annoying game where i couldnt put down my natural hatchery because of a engi bay block in a game of ZvT. He opened reactor hellion and because i had no creep because of my late natural i got completely run over by just 4 hellions, im pretty frustrated and want to punch the wall right now. Whats the optimal way to deal with a hatchery denial from terran? Replay: http://drop.sc/173989
I think that you should have taken gas too, so that your tech is not behind and you could go for speedlings faster (one base play). After your pool finishes, you should build 4 lings and not more because they will be slow and if you did not scout more than one rax or gas then you should consider helions as a threat. the spine crawler you built was way too early, what did you expect to come after an engibayblock? actually you can plant down a spine, the moment you see he is going for helions when you walk up the ramp with some zerglings but you should not lose them all because they will be important for later, when the helions are actually in your base you can chase them down with speedlings. you couldve connected your bases with creep too, you were just one click away from doing so. do not engage helions off creep with either zerglings or queen because they will kite you. use both of your queens - two were just sitting in your main doint nothing. if your spine cannot reach the helions in the back of the mineral line, do not uproot it! instead use your queen to take them out if they are less than 6. if possible have speedlings supporting. use both your natural queen plus your main queen to chase the helions around but it is important for your bases to be connected of course so that your queens do not have difficulties on their way between the bases. I would not say that going for roaches is wrong but in your case you already went for a spine! instead you shouldve built a third queen and some lings 
|
I recently made plat as Zerg but am hitting a wall in ZvZ. So far I´ve been going 14/14, then make tons of zerglings. When I see I'm no longer doing damage with zerglings, I switch to pure drones, hit optimal saturation on 2 base and set up for a +1 and speed roach attack, hoping to out macro the opponent. Sometimes it takes one more big roach attack. This worked like a charm in gold but against diamond opponents in particular tends not to work so well. I feel like I have build order losses combined with inexperience in late game zerg tactics. Is my build and gameplan still OK or do I need more ?
I'm attaching an example game, any criticism especially of macro and strategy are very welcome. Maybe I should just lift my opponent's build since he crushed my main attack ?
Replay
|
On May 07 2012 10:15 RedThor wrote:I recently made plat as Zerg but am hitting a wall in ZvZ. So far I´ve been going 14/14, then make tons of zerglings. When I see I'm no longer doing damage with zerglings, I switch to pure drones, hit optimal saturation on 2 base and set up for a +1 and speed roach attack, hoping to out macro the opponent. Sometimes it takes one more big roach attack. This worked like a charm in gold but against diamond opponents in particular tends not to work so well. I feel like I have build order losses combined with inexperience in late game zerg tactics. Is my build and gameplan still OK or do I need more ? I'm attaching an example game, any criticism especially of macro and strategy are very welcome. Maybe I should just lift my opponent's build since he crushed my main attack ? Replay
Hi, there are a lot of Day[9] Dailys on ZvZ maybe you want to check them out!
In any mirror match you want to know where your window of oppotunity is when both your opponent and you are going for different builds. If the builds are the same then the one with the better execution will win.
In ZvZ you should know which build pwns which build and why and how to overcome it.
In this particular replay you executed 14/14 into speedling expand which is a build that lets you gain map control against expand first builds as well as roach rushes but you will tend to lose against 14/14 baneling builds if you do not have a spine crawler. The best thing to do is to play a lot of ZvZ to gain more experience in it since it is such a dynamic matchup!
as I said the most important thing to ZvZ is knowing the timings and how to scout stuff.
also work on larva inject and other macro mechanics to be on par with your opponent.
|
Hi guys,
Karak here with another likely dumb question. You guys were very helpful last time in helping me shore up my ZvZ hatch first bane defense. I've now either been doing the gasless expand with 3 queens and 1/2 spines (like stephano used to) or going:
15h
16 gas at 175 minerals
15p (almost instantly after the gas)
and getting speed first if he expands (or is hatch firsting too) right away
OR getting a spine, a queen and a bane nest if he appears like he is going to be aggressive. Learned that from watching Darkforce's stream.
Here is my next question:
In ZvZ I often get a nice lead with spire play... take my 3rd and deny his 3rd while he turtle-festors or somehow secures a 3rd with mass queen/spore or hydra or something (usually hydra play just dies). Most commonly... turtlefestor.
How should I transition out of this?
What I've been trying to do is one of a few options:
-Cutting muta at 12-15 or so and then throwing down my own infestation pit while getting upgrades on my lings. I then go to hive off 3 base and go crackling/infestor/ultra. This feels very vulnerable to a big roach/infestor or roach infestor/hydra timing, though, especially if my mutas just establish map control and deny his 3rd for a little, but don't really score any drone kills.
-Continually massing mutas and trying a big ling/muta/bane attack. This doesn't seem to work well very often. I'll only keep massing mutas if he skips infestors and goes to hydras, as mutas in mass #s are very effective vs. hydras.
-Throwing down 2 evos and a roach warren and going into standard roach play with a later infestation pit. This doesn't seem to be very effective as if he opened roach his upgrades are generally ahead and he gets infestors quicker. This works if he is going like pure hydra/ling or something, but not many people do that.
What do you guys think?
Thanks. I'm Masters Zerg NA if that is relevant for whatever reason.
|
On May 07 2012 15:07 Karak wrote:
Hi guys,
Karak here with another likely dumb question. You guys were very helpful last time in helping me shore up my ZvZ hatch first bane defense. I've now either been doing the gasless expand with 3 queens and 1/2 spines (like stephano used to) or going:
15h
16 gas at 175 minerals
15p (almost instantly after the gas)
and getting speed first if he expands (or is hatch firsting too) right away
OR getting a spine, a queen and a bane nest if he appears like he is going to be aggressive. Learned that from watching Darkforce's stream.
Here is my next question:
In ZvZ I often get a nice lead with spire play... take my 3rd and deny his 3rd while he turtle-festors or somehow secures a 3rd with mass queen/spore or hydra or something (usually hydra play just dies). Most commonly... turtlefestor.
How should I transition out of this?
What I've been trying to do is one of a few options:
-Cutting muta at 12-15 or so and then throwing down my own infestation pit while getting upgrades on my lings. I then go to hive off 3 base and go crackling/infestor/ultra. This feels very vulnerable to a big roach/infestor or roach infestor/hydra timing, though, especially if my mutas just establish map control and deny his 3rd for a little, but don't really score any drone kills.
-Continually massing mutas and trying a big ling/muta/bane attack. This doesn't seem to work well very often. I'll only keep massing mutas if he skips infestors and goes to hydras, as mutas in mass #s are very effective vs. hydras.
-Throwing down 2 evos and a roach warren and going into standard roach play with a later infestation pit. This doesn't seem to be very effective as if he opened roach his upgrades are generally ahead and he gets infestors quicker. This works if he is going like pure hydra/ling or something, but not many people do that.
What do you guys think?
Thanks. I'm Masters Zerg NA if that is relevant for whatever reason.
I think the best option is to max out on roaches + upgrades and then push out when you reach 200 food.
Since you have your third established and he does not you should be wayy ahead in income which means you can max out roaches really fast. Also you can neutralize fungals in a battle with your leftover mutas by sniping the infestors
If you go muta he will not move out until he has Hydras or Infestor (or Queens). in the meantime you mass roach and will most likely win against this.
|
On May 07 2012 06:57 Xelyxiz wrote:I just played an extremely annoying game where i couldnt put down my natural hatchery because of a engi bay block in a game of ZvT. He opened reactor hellion and because i had no creep because of my late natural i got completely run over by just 4 hellions, im pretty frustrated and want to punch the wall right now. Whats the optimal way to deal with a hatchery denial from terran? Replay: http://drop.sc/173989
Send 4/5 drones to kill the engineering bay. It is ok to delay a bit your mining, because by making an enginering bay, he also delayed his build. Make sure some drone is targetting the scv, so that it stops building the EB. throw down a pool at the same time. when enginnering bay is killed, send back your drones to mine and make your hatch. Then proceed as normal for the rest of the game.
|
On May 07 2012 10:15 RedThor wrote:I recently made plat as Zerg but am hitting a wall in ZvZ. So far I´ve been going 14/14, then make tons of zerglings. When I see I'm no longer doing damage with zerglings, I switch to pure drones, hit optimal saturation on 2 base and set up for a +1 and speed roach attack, hoping to out macro the opponent. Sometimes it takes one more big roach attack. This worked like a charm in gold but against diamond opponents in particular tends not to work so well. I feel like I have build order losses combined with inexperience in late game zerg tactics. Is my build and gameplan still OK or do I need more ? I'm attaching an example game, any criticism especially of macro and strategy are very welcome. Maybe I should just lift my opponent's build since he crushed my main attack ? Replay
Your problem might be there, you commit heavily to lings, then a +1 timing and still hope to out macro the opponent. In plat where players are better at scouting than in gold, someone who makes a few banelings to defend against lings will be ahead in eco. Try playing more defensive maybe and see how that goes.
|
On May 07 2012 15:07 Karak wrote:
-Cutting muta at 12-15 or so and then throwing down my own infestation pit while getting upgrades on my lings. I then go to hive off 3 base and go crackling/infestor/ultra. This feels very vulnerable to a big roach/infestor or roach infestor/hydra timing, though, especially if my mutas just establish map control and deny his 3rd for a little, but don't really score any drone kills.
Very vulnerable to infestor play, I wouldn't do that. Some pros seem to make it work, but it's really hard and you need a ton of spines. If the opponent recognizes it there's a big window of time where you will just die imo.
-Continually massing mutas and trying a big ling/muta/bane attack. This doesn't seem to work well very often. I'll only keep massing mutas if he skips infestors and goes to hydras, as mutas in mass #s are very effective vs. hydras.
Agree with you here, only works vs hydra comps so it's risky. I would go for it if he gets an early third up with hydras, have to hit early though but it definetly works. I don't know if you upgrade melee with this but it's better not to, at this point you have to be fast and keeping 100 gas for a muta or more banelings is better. Also works in weird games where the opponent does a big roach push just before mutas and manages to do damage while you wipe out his army. 90% of the players follow that up with hydras and a big attack because their lair is too late and they will never get a third up.
-Throwing down 2 evos and a roach warren and going into standard roach play with a later infestation pit. This doesn't seem to be very effective as if he opened roach his upgrades are generally ahead and he gets infestors quicker. This works if he is going like pure hydra/ling or something, but not many people do that.
That's where I disagree with you, I play spire in 90% of my ZvZs, it's my best MU by far and that's the one I use the most. If you manage to delay his third enough and have map control just mass up roaches with double upgrades. The advantage I see with this choice as opposed to the 2 others is that you are completely reactive. Regarding upgrades if you stick with roaches you will catch up in upgrades with double evo, keep in mind he has to dump a lot of gas into infestor/hydras fast and you have a superior economy. It's also worth it to make spines they do amazing against roaches and are not affected by fungle.
If you see him overmake hydras or infestors early on you can just bruteforce with roaches, if you see him massing roaches you can throw a hydra den around 150-160 supply and defend. You can keep your mutas to delay his fourth and draw him out of position to do runbys.
One thing that works well is just maxing on roach-hydra and keep trading with him while expanding. Your eco should be better and it's ok to not be cost-efficient.
|
Diamond Zerg here.
Had this ZvP, would like to know the reason why i lost since i feel like i did the right thing.
Basicly:
He FFE'd but tried to cannon rush, i made too many lings but i got the whole map still.
He goes for phoenix and after a while he tries to expand, i make ling roach hydra plus upgrades and start attacking at his third, battle took long but didnt go too well, eventually he had too many collosus, he secured his third and basicly won the game there i felt like.
Only high level zerg advice please. Also any positive comments would be nice.
http://drop.sc/174407
|
On May 07 2012 15:43 Suitup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 15:07 Karak wrote:
Hi guys,
Karak here with another likely dumb question. You guys were very helpful last time in helping me shore up my ZvZ hatch first bane defense. I've now either been doing the gasless expand with 3 queens and 1/2 spines (like stephano used to) or going:
15h
16 gas at 175 minerals
15p (almost instantly after the gas)
and getting speed first if he expands (or is hatch firsting too) right away
OR getting a spine, a queen and a bane nest if he appears like he is going to be aggressive. Learned that from watching Darkforce's stream.
Here is my next question:
In ZvZ I often get a nice lead with spire play... take my 3rd and deny his 3rd while he turtle-festors or somehow secures a 3rd with mass queen/spore or hydra or something (usually hydra play just dies). Most commonly... turtlefestor.
How should I transition out of this?
What I've been trying to do is one of a few options:
-Cutting muta at 12-15 or so and then throwing down my own infestation pit while getting upgrades on my lings. I then go to hive off 3 base and go crackling/infestor/ultra. This feels very vulnerable to a big roach/infestor or roach infestor/hydra timing, though, especially if my mutas just establish map control and deny his 3rd for a little, but don't really score any drone kills.
-Continually massing mutas and trying a big ling/muta/bane attack. This doesn't seem to work well very often. I'll only keep massing mutas if he skips infestors and goes to hydras, as mutas in mass #s are very effective vs. hydras.
-Throwing down 2 evos and a roach warren and going into standard roach play with a later infestation pit. This doesn't seem to be very effective as if he opened roach his upgrades are generally ahead and he gets infestors quicker. This works if he is going like pure hydra/ling or something, but not many people do that.
What do you guys think?
Thanks. I'm Masters Zerg NA if that is relevant for whatever reason. I think the best option is to max out on roaches + upgrades and then push out when you reach 200 food. Since you have your third established and he does not you should be wayy ahead in income which means you can max out roaches really fast. Also you can neutralize fungals in a battle with your leftover mutas by sniping the infestors If you go muta he will not move out until he has Hydras or Infestor (or Queens). in the meantime you mass roach and will most likely win against this.
On May 07 2012 17:47 NeonFox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 15:07 Karak wrote:
-Cutting muta at 12-15 or so and then throwing down my own infestation pit while getting upgrades on my lings. I then go to hive off 3 base and go crackling/infestor/ultra. This feels very vulnerable to a big roach/infestor or roach infestor/hydra timing, though, especially if my mutas just establish map control and deny his 3rd for a little, but don't really score any drone kills.
Very vulnerable to infestor play, I wouldn't do that. Some pros seem to make it work, but it's really hard and you need a ton of spines. If the opponent recognizes it there's a big window of time where you will just die imo. Show nested quote +
-Continually massing mutas and trying a big ling/muta/bane attack. This doesn't seem to work well very often. I'll only keep massing mutas if he skips infestors and goes to hydras, as mutas in mass #s are very effective vs. hydras.
Agree with you here, only works vs hydra comps so it's risky. I would go for it if he gets an early third up with hydras, have to hit early though but it definetly works. I don't know if you upgrade melee with this but it's better not to, at this point you have to be fast and keeping 100 gas for a muta or more banelings is better. Also works in weird games where the opponent does a big roach push just before mutas and manages to do damage while you wipe out his army. 90% of the players follow that up with hydras and a big attack because their lair is too late and they will never get a third up. Show nested quote +
-Throwing down 2 evos and a roach warren and going into standard roach play with a later infestation pit. This doesn't seem to be very effective as if he opened roach his upgrades are generally ahead and he gets infestors quicker. This works if he is going like pure hydra/ling or something, but not many people do that.
That's where I disagree with you, I play spire in 90% of my ZvZs, it's my best MU by far and that's the one I use the most. If you manage to delay his third enough and have map control just mass up roaches with double upgrades. The advantage I see with this choice as opposed to the 2 others is that you are completely reactive. Regarding upgrades if you stick with roaches you will catch up in upgrades with double evo, keep in mind he has to dump a lot of gas into infestor/hydras fast and you have a superior economy. It's also worth it to make spines they do amazing against roaches and are not affected by fungle. If you see him overmake hydras or infestors early on you can just bruteforce with roaches, if you see him massing roaches you can throw a hydra den around 150-160 supply and defend. You can keep your mutas to delay his fourth and draw him out of position to do runbys. One thing that works well is just maxing on roach-hydra and keep trading with him while expanding. Your eco should be better and it's ok to not be cost-efficient.
Awesome guys. Thanks for the analysis. Obviously some of this is map dependent, but I like your theories on just maxing out on roach. Perhaps I should take a closer look at some of my replays. Maybe I am underdroning or going spire too quickly. What sort of saturation are you guys going for off 2 base before going spire? I'm generally rushing there pretty fast, and maybe that is making my spire play more "all-in" (aka I have to do drone damage and can't just deny a 3rd).
Here's a replay of the fate that usually befalls me: Not sure what to do, just attack randomly with ling/muta, barely miss denying 3rd... game over. Although villain here is, obviously, much better than me overall.
Karak vs EGLzGaMeR on Ohana LE
|
On May 07 2012 15:46 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 06:57 Xelyxiz wrote:I just played an extremely annoying game where i couldnt put down my natural hatchery because of a engi bay block in a game of ZvT. He opened reactor hellion and because i had no creep because of my late natural i got completely run over by just 4 hellions, im pretty frustrated and want to punch the wall right now. Whats the optimal way to deal with a hatchery denial from terran? Replay: http://drop.sc/173989 Send 4/5 drones to kill the engineering bay. It is ok to delay a bit your mining, because by making an enginering bay, he also delayed his build. Make sure some drone is targetting the scv, so that it stops building the EB. throw down a pool at the same time. when enginnering bay is killed, send back your drones to mine and make your hatch. Then proceed as normal for the rest of the game.
Is this really the optimal response? I've been wavering back and forth between this and just making an overlord, getting a gas and then expanding as soon as my pool is done OR just making an OL (sort of like a ZvP gasless except without the quick 3rd) and then gasless into a macro hatch and Spanishiwa style.
The big issue is, obviously, getting the spine up on the low ground for hellion harass, but the eng bay should delay his hellions long enough that that isn't a problem.
|
So you go muta, take your third and deny his third. I would always transition into roach/infestor from here with double evos. Keep those muta's alive as well, I would keep them separated so you don't lose multiple to a single infestor. Just as you denied the third, you should actively deny the fourth as well. Hydras, queens and spore crawlers all rely on creep. If you keep your muta's split and near the fourth (assuming you already probed the other bases and they are defended well), you can deny the fourth with them and/or force poor energy usage from infestors. It takes 5 fungals to kill a full hp mutalisk.Or three fungals and 2 infested terrans, but that requires multiple infestors.
With the engi block, I have been experimenting with placing my hatchery where my macro hatch usually goes. Since I usually get an early macro hatch anyway, this gets creep up sooner to help defend against early pushes, though it is weaker against one base all ins.
|
Thanks for the responses on muta play. It's just that like I'll notice mutas, I may even take my third quickly, but I stagnate at 40 drones as all my minerals go into queens, spores, infestation tech, a minimal number of units to defend against speedlings, while the muta player powers hard. You just can't afford 8 queens/third/infestors/roachspeed/upgrades on 40 drones and drone up too.
Maybe I'm overreacting, but I am really careful not to make spores until their spire is done - but I think I may end up overreacting with queens, by making 2-3x queen at any time and getting 8+ queens really quickly. The muta harass itself does very little to me, but I stagnate on 40-50 drones while the muta player gets his third and 60+ drones at the same time.
Then it just becomes a standard roach/infestor vs roach/infestor, but I'm behind 20 drones.
I just don't see how to get the economic lead against mutas, I guess.
I guess I should just be going faster third in ZvZ. The problem with that is someone massing lots of lings before you are getting roaches out I guess. I'm not sure.
I've been watching a ton of zvz recently, but I don't see anything consistent. a lot of people are still using 2 base muta, and over 80% of the games seems to be losses due to 10 pool vs hatch first vs 14/14 coinflipping, and if not, the ling/bane wars (I guess people get too greedy?). There aren't many zvz series to beging with either.
|
On May 08 2012 03:13 Belial88 wrote:
Thanks for the responses on muta play. It's just that like I'll notice mutas, I may even take my third quickly, but I stagnate at 40 drones as all my minerals go into queens, spores, infestation tech, a minimal number of units to defend against speedlings, while the muta player powers hard. You just can't afford 8 queens/third/infestors/roachspeed/upgrades on 40 drones and drone up too.
Maybe I'm overreacting, but I am really careful not to make spores until their spire is done - but I think I may end up overreacting with queens, by making 2-3x queen at any time and getting 8+ queens really quickly. The muta harass itself does very little to me, but I stagnate on 40-50 drones while the muta player gets his third and 60+ drones at the same time.
Then it just becomes a standard roach/infestor vs roach/infestor, but I'm behind 20 drones.
I just don't see how to get the economic lead against mutas, I guess.
I guess I should just be going faster third in ZvZ. The problem with that is someone massing lots of lings before you are getting roaches out I guess. I'm not sure.
I've been watching a ton of zvz recently, but I don't see anything consistent. a lot of people are still using 2 base muta, and over 80% of the games seems to be losses due to 10 pool vs hatch first vs 14/14 coinflipping, and if not, the ling/bane wars (I guess people get too greedy?). There aren't many zvz series to beging with either.
I go muta a lot and there's one thing I REALLY hate to see when I'm doing it... a quick 3rd. I'll try to deny it with lings, but assuming they are paying attention they can easily defend with ling/bling and/or roach. A quick 3rd is just... not good, because then they can get a couple spores up. Good players will take it as soon as they get the tip off that I'm going muta (typically that I'm on ling/bling still and I have 2-5 spines in the front of my base.... spines are always a huge tell, but if he's going roach and I don't make them I risk just dying to a big roach attack).
2 spores per base + 4-5 queens running around can deny my mutas really well. Can also be aggressive on my 3rd with your own lings/blings, forcing more gas out of me. Yeah mutas can target lings, but then they aren't in your base and they don't kill lings especially quickly. If you plan out the structure of your main base buildings from the start, you can place them in an efficient way so that 2 spores can cover everything and queens can scoot in and out easily.
One big tip is regardless of what villain has on the ground, always try to have a small pack of lings sitting around whatever is engaging the mutas. This helps absorb a lot of splash damage.
|
Diamond Zerg here.
Had this ZvP, would like to know the reason why i lost since i feel like i did the right thing.
Basicly:
He FFE'd but tried to cannon rush, i made too many lings but i got the whole map still.
He goes for phoenix and after a while he tries to expand, i make ling roach hydra plus upgrades and start attacking at his third, battle took long but didnt go too well, eventually he had too many collosus, he secured his third and basicly won the game there i felt like.
Only high level zerg advice please. Also any positive comments would be nice.
http://drop.sc/174407
|
apperently some players are allowed to make post about lower lvl league help yet I get told to post mine here and it gets deleted. anyways
Hello, I'm a rank 5 dim player, ZvZ is the only issue i'm having. I don't have a issue if its a standard game as in we both go 15 hatch or something. I'm having huge issues with the new wave of chesse strats and geting rid of ling all ins.
I can defend early pools just fine np the old school 6 pool-10/11 over pool is very easy for me to defend.
It's the new annoying ling all ins such as the one tang posted on these forms and other different forms of that sorta of early 1 base or 2 base ling all in. Its kinda hard to spot as well since they do open with a 15 pool looks pretty standard at first untill its to late.
I try to scout as much as I can, but if I play standard I lose and don't know how to react to those massive ling all ins.
Also the newest replay back I own is from the winter mlg pack which only has 1 or 2 zvz games and both are just baneling bust chesse and 4 min games/
Are there any current pro replay zvzs I can dl or view anywhere? thanks.
|
On May 08 2012 03:13 Belial88 wrote:
Thanks for the responses on muta play. It's just that like I'll notice mutas, I may even take my third quickly, but I stagnate at 40 drones as all my minerals go into queens, spores, infestation tech, a minimal number of units to defend against speedlings, while the muta player powers hard. You just can't afford 8 queens/third/infestors/roachspeed/upgrades on 40 drones and drone up too.
Maybe I'm overreacting, but I am really careful not to make spores until their spire is done - but I think I may end up overreacting with queens, by making 2-3x queen at any time and getting 8+ queens really quickly. The muta harass itself does very little to me, but I stagnate on 40-50 drones while the muta player gets his third and 60+ drones at the same time.
Then it just becomes a standard roach/infestor vs roach/infestor, but I'm behind 20 drones.
I just don't see how to get the economic lead against mutas, I guess.
I guess I should just be going faster third in ZvZ. The problem with that is someone massing lots of lings before you are getting roaches out I guess. I'm not sure.
I've been watching a ton of zvz recently, but I don't see anything consistent. a lot of people are still using 2 base muta, and over 80% of the games seems to be losses due to 10 pool vs hatch first vs 14/14 coinflipping, and if not, the ling/bane wars (I guess people get too greedy?). There aren't many zvz series to beging with either.
You can hold large amount of lings with very small numbers of roach/baneling if it catches you by surprise. I always have 4 banes morphed against muta play before mutas pop incase lings try to kill my third.
You are DEFINITELY overreacting with queens. I barely make 8 queens even when I'm doing my full push. 6 is enough with creep spread. 3-4 is enough initially for up to 10 or so mutas.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
