|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
^ yea but the thing is that 'standard' evo for +1 is ~40 supply, then ~50+ for roach warren. So I don't get that roach warren particularly quickly - if you are going mutas, it's hard for me to just take that third without hurting my econ just as much as the muta player.
And then, is going third a good idea against fast muta? I always thought that 'fast' muta like 30-40, will kill a third too because they come so quick, but 'standard' muta, a third is good against.
And then what do you do? You make like 2 spores a base and 6 queens, and then what? Roaches, or infestors? I'll try to rely more on spores than queens though, and just rely on my timing of my spores. I just would be like 'damn mutas, i just have to pre-emptively make queens for forever since I cant make them with larva" and then it's hard to really tell how many is too little or too many.
If you go quick third, your tech is really late. So are you trying to get infestors asap? What exactly is the plan?
|
On May 08 2012 19:05 Belial88 wrote:
^ yea but the thing is that 'standard' evo for +1 is ~40 supply, then ~50+ for roach warren. So I don't get that roach warren particularly quickly - if you are going mutas, it's hard for me to just take that third without hurting my econ just as much as the muta player.
And then, is going third a good idea against fast muta? I always thought that 'fast' muta like 30-40, will kill a third too because they come so quick, but 'standard' muta, a third is good against.
And then what do you do? You make like 2 spores a base and 6 queens, and then what? Roaches, or infestors? I'll try to rely more on spores than queens though, and just rely on my timing of my spores. I just would be like 'damn mutas, i just have to pre-emptively make queens for forever since I cant make them with larva" and then it's hard to really tell how many is too little or too many.
If you go quick third, your tech is really late. So are you trying to get infestors asap? What exactly is the plan?
Just in regards to your spore timing, what I like to do once I see mutas on the field, and assuming I'm on 3 bases, is have a decent sized ling force charging around the map, during which you can tech, drone and spore up. Whether this is worth it or not idk, but it works for me.
|
Defending against a 10pool with a 14hatch?
Here are two replays of me playing on ladder against a 10pool with my 14hatch 14 pool opener.
In one I did not scout it in time in the other one I did.
What is the optimal reaction in both cases?
http://drop.sc/174833
http://drop.sc/174834
|
Another fun thing to do if playing mutas in ZvZ is morphing an overseer and killing the creep tumors in front of the opponent's base. It denies him vision and coupled with hunting is own overseers and scouting lings there's no way for him to see anything out of his base.
|
On May 08 2012 19:34 Suitup wrote:Defending against a 10pool with a 14hatch? Here are two replays of me playing on ladder against a 10pool with my 14hatch 14 pool opener. In one I did not scout it in time in the other one I did. What is the optimal reaction in both cases? http://drop.sc/174833http://drop.sc/174834
Hatch first is a BO loss against 9/10/11 pools. Typically it goes like this, his pool comes out early, you have more drones while he has more lings. You may have more minerals, but you also lost mining time due to dodging lings waiting for your lings to come out. He builds spines on your creep forcing you to build spines so you can't also afford a queen, so you can't get larva to use up any possible mineral advantage.
The two main reactions that I have seen that allow the opponent to make mistakes are,
1) cancel expo, Micro drones avoiding lings while damaging their morphing spines so that your spines/lings win. Requires much better micro than the opponent.
2) allow expo to finish, If the opponent attacks the expo it buys you time to get a spine/lings up and win with a better econ in your main.
If they ignore the expo try to sneak a drone there and get a spine up, transfer your drones to the expo, make another spine for every spine the opponent made in your main in a location where your spine can attack drones/lings attacking the morphing spine. Send lings to their base to try to snipe drones to stop the reinforcements. You need to balance defending your spines with drones against mining minerals to get another pool up as well.
|
How do I defend against immortal+gate way two base all in? I can see it from far away and still get wrecked.
|
On May 09 2012 10:13 Spec wrote:
How do I defend against immortal+gate way two base all in? I can see it from far away and still get wrecked.
1) Get a good 3-base economy going.
2) Make lots of units without missing injects.
3) Don't engage him in a cramped up area where he can forcefield most your army of.
Step 1 is the most important step. 2 base immortals hits at 10-11 minutes and has kinda been figured out with the 3 base stephano style. You should be able to have an eco advantage going into the midgame and just out-produce him.
|
When I scout a 2 base all-in (6-8 Gate) coming ZvP, how many drones should I make? I have trouble in ZvP against 2 base all-ins because I am unsure how many drones I want to stop at to start making Roaches/Lings
|
On May 09 2012 11:01 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 10:13 Spec wrote:
How do I defend against immortal+gate way two base all in? I can see it from far away and still get wrecked. 1) Get a good 3-base economy going. 2) Make lots of units without missing injects. 3) Don't engage him in a cramped up area where he can forcefield most your army of. Step 1 is the most important step. 2 base immortals hits at 10-11 minutes and has kinda been figured out with the 3 base stephano style. You should be able to have an eco advantage going into the midgame and just out-produce him.
So what do I make and how should I engage? Just pure roach-ling?
|
On May 09 2012 11:01 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 10:13 Spec wrote:
How do I defend against immortal+gate way two base all in? I can see it from far away and still get wrecked. 1) Get a good 3-base economy going. 2) Make lots of units without missing injects. 3) Don't engage him in a cramped up area where he can forcefield most your army of. Step 1 is the most important step. 2 base immortals hits at 10-11 minutes and has kinda been figured out with the 3 base stephano style. You should be able to have an eco advantage going into the midgame and just out-produce him.
Agree, I do the same thing (stephano style) just don't overdrone. Even if you only have 6 drones on the 3rd base when the attack hits as long as you hold and crush his push you'll still be way ahead. You can drone to 70 in 10 secs once you chase him back to his base. You can hold it with roach/ling with upgrades, usually +1 ranged and roach speed.
|
On May 09 2012 11:17 envisioN . wrote:
When I scout a 2 base all-in (6-8 Gate) coming ZvP, how many drones should I make? I have trouble in ZvP against 2 base all-ins because I am unsure how many drones I want to stop at to start making Roaches/Lings
I think when you scout a 6gate+ you should cut drones and start making units right away. It's not like he can transition out of it.
|
On May 09 2012 12:38 Rinny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 11:17 envisioN . wrote:
When I scout a 2 base all-in (6-8 Gate) coming ZvP, how many drones should I make? I have trouble in ZvP against 2 base all-ins because I am unsure how many drones I want to stop at to start making Roaches/Lings I think when you scout a 6gate+ you should cut drones and start making units right away. It's not like he can transition out of it.
If I scout it early though (when their 6 gates are being warped in, they can warp in a minimal amount of units and take a third while I am stuck on ~40 drones because I cut immediately. I'm just looking for an estimate that I should be able to hold a 6 gate if I cut around then and make units, but won't be miles behind.
|
@envisioN ive never seen a protoss just abort the 6gate, can you provide a replay? if they try to take a 3rd then you should be able to get get aggressive with the units you've made, either performing an all in, or doing pressure while taking a 3rd and droning
|
ZvP
What did I do wrong here? I had better upgrades and economy... Went corruptors as soon as I scouted robo bay.
http://drop.sc/175413
|
On May 09 2012 11:36 Spec wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 11:01 VoirDire wrote:On May 09 2012 10:13 Spec wrote:
How do I defend against immortal+gate way two base all in? I can see it from far away and still get wrecked. 1) Get a good 3-base economy going. 2) Make lots of units without missing injects. 3) Don't engage him in a cramped up area where he can forcefield most your army of. Step 1 is the most important step. 2 base immortals hits at 10-11 minutes and has kinda been figured out with the 3 base stephano style. You should be able to have an eco advantage going into the midgame and just out-produce him. So what do I make and how should I engage? Just pure roach-ling?
Yes, roach ling is good.
Ideally you'd want to engage in the middle so that you can surround him from all sides, if that's not possible engage him as far from your base as possible so that you have some space to back off into when he places his forcefields. It can also be a good idea to have a group of unit run around to sandwich him from behind and take out the reinforcement pylons.
|
On May 09 2012 18:28 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 11:36 Spec wrote:On May 09 2012 11:01 VoirDire wrote:On May 09 2012 10:13 Spec wrote:
How do I defend against immortal+gate way two base all in? I can see it from far away and still get wrecked. 1) Get a good 3-base economy going. 2) Make lots of units without missing injects. 3) Don't engage him in a cramped up area where he can forcefield most your army of. Step 1 is the most important step. 2 base immortals hits at 10-11 minutes and has kinda been figured out with the 3 base stephano style. You should be able to have an eco advantage going into the midgame and just out-produce him. So what do I make and how should I engage? Just pure roach-ling? Yes, roach ling is good. Ideally you'd want to engage in the middle so that you can surround him from all sides, if that's not possible engage him as far from your base as possible so that you have some space to back off into when he places his forcefields. It can also be a good idea to have a group of unit run around to sandwich him from behind and take out the reinforcement pylons.
Important to point out that you stay on 4 gas, spend your gas on roaches and ups+speed upgrade, and minerals on lings.
|
On May 09 2012 17:43 wew wrote:ZvP What did I do wrong here? I had better upgrades and economy... Went corruptors as soon as I scouted robo bay. http://drop.sc/175413
First remember that as zerg you're supposed to have a better economy, and if you're making roaches you're supposed to have a supply lead. Zerg units are cost inefficient, and roaches are supply inefficient.
You actually made your third too early, try to make a couple of drones after your nat goes down, don't place your third untill your drone arrives at your third, otherwise the money is in limbo in the meantime!
Generally you want to get two gas at 6 min, and your evo+roach at 7 min. (the way I time this is I get my two gasses at ~40, and I drop my evo+roach+3rd and 4th gas when I start speed after lair).
The way you did it was you got your first two gas together with your evo and roach warren, and then got lair, meaning you don't have gas to support everything.
You did a good job scouting the colossus tech and reacting to it! I also love your saturation at this point, it's perfect for three base Stephano style. Your creepspread is nice too. What's less perfect are your injects, and because of them you had alot banked at this point.
Around 13 min you engage at an awkward angle and lose alot of lings and some roaches, this was mostly because you didnt know where his army was. Try keeping lings on the towers and more importantly keep one infront of his base to see if he moves out!
His army was out of position for a long time and you could've denied the third much earlier, but you ran back the moment you saw him on your creep. Luckily for you he didn't kill your fourth for free, but ran back. At this point with you having a fourth and him taking a third you should not have tried to engage, especially in the choke at the watchtower. A supply advantage is nice, but with roaches it's always skewed towards the zerg even when behind.
If you had taken a fifth, taken your gasses at your fourth and dropped an infestation pit to tech to hive and make infestors you would've been in good shape since, as you said, you were ahead. Once you max out use your surplus of minerals to make two spine walls at your nat and fourth (metalopolis is great for this), and make your standard infestor broodlord army behind it, once you have it take the gold and deny his gold and starve him.
Hope this helped, if you have any more questions about this replay please ask. 
|
On May 09 2012 19:11 Clarity_nl wrote:Hope this helped, if you have any more questions about this replay please ask.
Wow, thank you very much for your help!
I have one more question, say I max on roach/corruptor and I take my 4th and I want to make that infestor brood army, how do I effectively free supply to do so without losing too much?
|
On May 09 2012 19:44 wew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 19:11 Clarity_nl wrote:On May 09 2012 17:43 wew wrote:ZvP What did I do wrong here? I had better upgrades and economy... Went corruptors as soon as I scouted robo bay. http://drop.sc/175413 Hope this helped, if you have any more questions about this replay please ask. Wow, thank you very much for your help! I have one more question, say I max on roach/corruptor and I take my 4th and I want to make that infestor brood army, how do I effectively free supply to do so without losing too much?
Make sure you are getting your fifth (in this situation anyway) and that you have quite a bank before doing any of this.
Generally you want to try and trade roaches for gas heavy units of toss OR try to snipe a nexus.
You need to be certain that you can hold whatever counter is coming though, which means you need spines and preferably some infestors out as well. Try to scout out where his army is and sac your units either to kill sentries/immortals or some important tech buildings like the forge and then splitting your roaches trying to maximize damage. As they die you turn your corruptors into broods straight away.
More often than not you want to try to shy away from roaches after this point and emphasize lings as the reinforcing unit, as they build faster and get there faster/are more supply efficient.
Always keep injecting even when maxed just in case you need to make a 1000 lings. If you want to be a cool kid, once you have max larva on each hatch you can put queens in your army, just know that this means you kind of have to win the next fight OR be able to remax on more brood/infestor rather than roach/ling, since you won't have the larva.
|
On May 09 2012 19:54 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 19:44 wew wrote:On May 09 2012 19:11 Clarity_nl wrote:On May 09 2012 17:43 wew wrote:ZvP What did I do wrong here? I had better upgrades and economy... Went corruptors as soon as I scouted robo bay. http://drop.sc/175413 Hope this helped, if you have any more questions about this replay please ask. Wow, thank you very much for your help! I have one more question, say I max on roach/corruptor and I take my 4th and I want to make that infestor brood army, how do I effectively free supply to do so without losing too much? Make sure you are getting your fifth (in this situation anyway) and that you have quite a bank before doing any of this. Generally you want to try and trade roaches for gas heavy units of toss OR try to snipe a nexus. You need to be certain that you can hold whatever counter is coming though, which means you need spines and preferably some infestors out as well. Try to scout out where his army is and sac your units either to kill sentries/immortals or some important tech buildings like the forge and then splitting your roaches trying to maximize damage. As they die you turn your corruptors into broods straight away. More often than not you want to try to shy away from roaches after this point and emphasize lings as the reinforcing unit, as they build faster and get there faster/are more supply efficient. Always keep injecting even when maxed just in case you need to make a 1000 lings. If you want to be a cool kid, once you have max larva on each hatch you can put queens in your army, just know that this means you kind of have to win the next fight OR be able to remax on more brood/infestor rather than roach/ling, since you won't have the larva.
My problem was always dying to the counter after losing my roaches, I guess I need to work on that.
Thanks again I appreciate it
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
