|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
In ZvZ, I've been doing fine with mutas but I recently had a game where my opponent just sent a ton of roaches my way while my mutas were harassing. He had gone for a pretty quick 3rd while I went 2hatch muta. Long story short I lost 2 hatcheries and a lot of tech and he came out ahead (I sent my mutas back to defend). It really shook me up to be honest, because I can't imagine what I'm supposed to do to hold that without losing almost everything. Are mutas just not as viable as I thought at first or am I just awful?
You are doing a semi all-innish build, especially if you are cutting drones. If zerg doesnt take any damage from your mutas, he ends up ahead. That said, zerg usually will take damage from the mutas, and you cut muta production and go into roach/infestor quick enough, but if you cut drones too hard, or if the zerg identifies what's going on and goes fast third, he can win...
Fast third is really a hard counter to standard 2 base muta. super fast 2 base muta can beat it, but that's much more all-in, and it's obvious, and he will probably not take the third because it's so obvious (or just kill you with roach/ling all-in).
Play more solid of a game.
In ZvP, how do i react to a non-FFE build? Every now and then my protoss opponent doesn't FFE and I feel lost. Things like 1gate expo etc. I've been trying to 3hatch regardless but always end up losing. Should I just 2base against every non-FFE opening or is 3hatch still viable somehow?
Get a single gas for speed, then pull off. You need speed against gateway openings, whether they 4 gate or 1 gate expand. The rest, you just play it same as against FFE really. Just be mindful of sentry/zealot pushes so get a roach warren ~50 supply and make units after 50-60 supply unless you are sure you know what toss is doing or want to be greedy. You will want that lair, but obviously if you go lair against a hard 6 gate from 3 gate expand, you will die, so just judge what he's doing well. You really have to sac an overlord after taking the third to see what he's doing, and react accordingly. If he has a ton of gates, mass lots of roaches on 2 gas and drone sparingly. If he has a stargate or tech coming or something, you can drone a little harder. But really, after 70 supply you should be pumping a ton of units if you ddint get pushed before then, if that makes sense.
I struggled for a while too, so I'll put it this way:
See it's gateway play instead of FFE, get ling speed asap, remove from gas.
Make sure he isn't 4 gating or all-inning, so you can drone past 30-35 and take your third as a reaction to his expansion.
Get a roach warren and put back on gas at ~45-50 supply.
Mass roaches after 50-60 supply based on map size, maybe on what you scout.
You will lose as your lair will be super late and you maybe dont drone hard enough to deal with a tech heavier push that comes later, but you will quickly learn how to appropriately make drones/tech, and units, against gateway expands. And that's that!
But really, you just play it like you are playing a FFE, only difference is you get ling speed, and you get your third slightly later (30-35, when you see him take his natural), and maybe roaches slightly earlier. Just have to make roaches to deal with any sentry/zealot push.
How do you guys respond to a quick third from toss in zvp? For instance, I played a game on daybreak where toss got a third off of just 1 gate and a robo and walled off the third entrance with 4 gateways and a handful of cannons. Because of the travel distance, my roach army never seemed to be very strong, and toss went for an immortal and sentry heavy composition, allowing him to just forcefield away everything....
Mutas are great against fast thirds, sure.
But you should be making roach/ling after 9:00 no matter what against toss anyways. So if he goes for a quick third, you can really pump on more units, and just crush it if he's taking a super greedy third. If he goes for a fast third, and you made standard roach/ling after 9:00 and even more roach/ling after seeing him go for a third, you should crush it. Just basic macro, if that makes sense. It's not viable to go fast third like that on a map that's balanced well (ie on entombed valley he can do that, which is why that map is horrible for zerg, so you have to respond by being even greedier, but yea that sucks).
It's like, zerg works like this against FFE:
1 take third
2 defend 8:00-10:00 aggression
3 Get complete map control with roach/ling and delay toss third as much as possible.
You will have map control after about 10:00. Which means toss can't expand. If he tries to, you destroy it, because you have total map control. He can only take the third if the map is bad for zerg like entombed valley where they can take a free third, or if he is honest and gets the right immortal/sentry amount. And you can't have that if you go super fast third. So you force him to be honest with that roach/ling made after 9:00.
If you are worried about pushes, you make units at 8:00, like 4 gate pressure, or 6 gate all-ins. If you know he isnt doing a super early pressure like 4 gate or 6 gate, then you can drone to 9. You can maybe drone even to 9:30 if he did something like stargate or something, but then after that you have to pump units, because it's better to deny his third with 70 drones than not deny third with 90 drones. You are already ahead in econ, you dont need to drone too hard.
|
I have been getting destroyed in ZvP lately. I have been trying to find information on scouting tips but can't find anything that i need. I keep getting killed by a zealot rush opening into stargate. The zealots deny my 3rd and then the stargate units deny it again. If they don't go stargate i get a follow up robo all in. How are zergs supposed to deal with this? with the current stephano build order that is the standard now I feel toss are meta gaming it really hard. I am a mid masters zerg and have no idea when to stop drone production for these early attacks because if you don't get your 200 supply by 11-12 minutes protoss can defend until they have colossi storm mother ship A click win. What are other zergs doing to negate this early pressure?
|
On April 25 2012 14:42 Buckshot9044 wrote:
I have been getting destroyed in ZvP lately. I have been trying to find information on scouting tips but can't find anything that i need. I keep getting killed by a zealot rush opening into stargate. The zealots deny my 3rd and then the stargate units deny it again. If they don't go stargate i get a follow up robo all in. How are zergs supposed to deal with this? with the current stephano build order that is the standard now I feel toss are meta gaming it really hard. I am a mid masters zerg and have no idea when to stop drone production for these early attacks because if you don't get your 200 supply by 11-12 minutes protoss can defend until they have colossi storm mother ship A click win. What are other zergs doing to negate this early pressure?
How are they denying your 3rd? It should be up before any zealot or stargate pressure happens.
If they're sending a few zealots just defend with your queen and a few extra lings. For stargate, just build a few spores and a few extra queens and just drone until you're saturated and then mass roaches to deny 3rd.
For an immortal allin, you have to scout it, make units and just have good positioning. If you can flank it, you can pretty much crush the push.
|
the zealot pressure usually comes just as my 3rd is finishing up and slow lings just don't deal with them fast enough. Usually the toss uses his first stalker to deny my watch towers then just runs about 4-6 zealots at the 3rd. Unless I blindly anticipate this I don't know when to make lings to defend this and I don't want to just make lings or else that's a round of drones lost.
|
Hey guys.
In zvt I like to open 15 hatch 15 pool, then get 4 roaches to push away the hellions and secure a 3rd. Midgame I like to go muta ling bling, and then tansition to infestor BL lategame. Is there a build like that out there? Give link please? 
I'm having a hard time using the search function of TL. I usually dont find what I'm looking for :/
|
On April 25 2012 14:58 Buckshot9044 wrote:
the zealot pressure usually comes just as my 3rd is finishing up and slow lings just don't deal with them fast enough. Usually the toss uses his first stalker to deny my watch towers then just runs about 4-6 zealots at the 3rd. Unless I blindly anticipate this I don't know when to make lings to defend this and I don't want to just make lings or else that's a round of drones lost.
I think I kinda know what this is. They use the stalker and zeals to establish a proxy and use it to do a really fast +1 4 gate zealot push, right? I don't really know how to scout for this, but in general I've been getting my warren at 7min or earlier.
|
On April 25 2012 15:39 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 14:58 Buckshot9044 wrote:
the zealot pressure usually comes just as my 3rd is finishing up and slow lings just don't deal with them fast enough. Usually the toss uses his first stalker to deny my watch towers then just runs about 4-6 zealots at the 3rd. Unless I blindly anticipate this I don't know when to make lings to defend this and I don't want to just make lings or else that's a round of drones lost. I think I kinda know what this is. They use the stalker and zeals to establish a proxy and use it to do a really fast +1 4 gate zealot push, right? I don't really know how to scout for this, but in general I've been getting my warren at 7min or earlier.
Yeah this is what it is sometimes, other times there is no +1 and they chrono warp gate harder to get zealots out faster. When I watch my games my build order is solid i hit all the timings and get my roach warren at 7min but at this time it is usually just going to finish soon but never done. I think that you have to be able to hold this with lings and also the stargate transition is really annoying. Have overlord base scout timings earlier now then what they used to be? I feel like i need to get my ovies in by 6-6:30 to see if there is this kind of pressure coming. Also does 2 gas always mean all in where as 4 gas means macro?
|
Highish masters zerg here. I'm the worst at holding 14/14 bane all-in when going hatch first. I don't particularly like going roaches after the hatch first. I would much prefer to go into speedling/bane. Roaches make me feel so passive.
My usual open is:
15 hatch
16 gas
15 pool
Does this seem fine? Sometimes I go 15 hatch, 15 pool, 15 gas if it's a closer spawn position. (If I do 10 drone scout, as discussed below, and see him not pull off gas... I'll usually pull 1 guy off gas and open roach).
Things I've been considering doing:
1) Drone scouting to see if he pulls off gas and going roaches if he doesn't pull off gas... otherwise just going speed, pulling 1 drone off gas into bane nest.
2) Gasless ... 2 queens, spine, some lings.
3) Bane nest with first 50 gas, going defensive slow lings, banes 1 queen eventually 2.
4) spine right away delaying 2nd queen and other things for quite a while
5) trying to just micro my lings and queens vs the bane while researching speed (jk on this one i suck too bad).
What's the standard play assuming we don't want to go roach? I know many pros don't drone scout, so I had been doing that for a while, but now I'm sending like a 10 scout to check for 10 pool and then gas timings.
|
How do you deal with Terrans getting early extra Orbitals? I'd have thought that'd make them weak early, but I still can't seem to break through their walls. Once their economy kicks in they can basically outmass easily before their main and natural gets mined out.
|
^ Submit rep? It means you can absolutely drone up the third you took. He will be stretched thin as your ling/bane/muta tears him apart. He will have the income boost at first, but if zerg can drone up uncontested, it means they will have the lead later on.
He will also be completely vulnearble to roach/banerain all in (roach warren about at 44 supply along with 2 more gas, make a few extra overlords, then 10 or so roaches all at once, then make bane nest when you start roaches/warren finishes, stream over lings, turn into banes. It's good to always sac an overlord around 40 to see what T is up to, including fast 3rd cc.
|
On April 25 2012 20:31 Karak wrote:
Highish masters zerg here. I'm the worst at holding 14/14 bane all-in when going hatch first. I don't particularly like going roaches after the hatch first. I would much prefer to go into speedling/bane. Roaches make me feel so passive.
My usual open is:
15 hatch
16 gas
15 pool
Does this seem fine? Sometimes I go 15 hatch, 15 pool, 15 gas if it's a closer spawn position. (If I do 10 drone scout, as discussed below, and see him not pull off gas... I'll usually pull 1 guy off gas and open roach).
Things I've been considering doing:
1) Drone scouting to see if he pulls off gas and going roaches if he doesn't pull off gas... otherwise just going speed, pulling 1 drone off gas into bane nest.
2) Gasless ... 2 queens, spine, some lings.
3) Bane nest with first 50 gas, going defensive slow lings, banes 1 queen eventually 2.
4) spine right away delaying 2nd queen and other things for quite a while
5) trying to just micro my lings and queens vs the bane while researching speed (jk on this one i suck too bad).
What's the standard play assuming we don't want to go roach? I know many pros don't drone scout, so I had been doing that for a while, but now I'm sending like a 10 scout to check for 10 pool and then gas timings.
So whatever your build order for hatch first is, doesn't matter. This is what you should be doing when pool pops:
- Make enough lings to hold the initial 0-6 lings the opponent sends your way.
- Make 2 queens
- Make a spine (instead of putting it forward at natural, I make it 'hidden' in mineral line, to prevent him from sniping it, no spine against banes can kind of make you lose - some pros make the spine nat behind their queen ramp block, then walk it down).
- Get ling speed, then baneling nest, add on lings.
- Once bane nest is done, you can inject and start adding a few drones.
Of course, this is only if you don't see the opponent expand.
1 base roach all-ins are horrible. They are worse than ling/bane all-ins. All you need to do, is see that the opponent didn't expand by 21, and then you prepare for the ling/bane all-in by not injecting with your queens (you really should not inject with your queens at all until you see him put down his expo or your baneling nest finishes, which you make after speed), and massing lings. Then you see him push out with roaches instead of lings (you should know already because no speed on his lings, and you don't see him send out lings forward, although he could also just be pooling them at home, but doesn't matter if you dont see them until as late as the overlord you put at his natural). You cancel the baneling nest and any baneling you may have made (if you don't, that's perfectly acceptable, 6 banes are very strong against a group of 5-7 roaches when you have a transfused spine, 2 queens, and rallied lings).
Ideally, if you know it's 1 base roach, you would get ling speed and then remove from gas, and you would make a ton of speedlings. Then when his push arrives, you transfuse the spine and your mass ling from 2 hatch production rapes his roaches, and then you just win the game if he doesnt make more roaches to wall off and you can drone up hardcore, then roach/ling all-in him and win because of your production.
Also, I would recommend you go speed before baneling nest. I get you are being defensive, but the benefit of going double queen instead of defensive bane, is getting quick speed so you can put on aggression and force the opponent to be defensive after his 1 base timing is gone and defended. I get that you are worried about banes, but 1 base baneling can't do shit to 2 queens with transfuse energy and a single spine that you just spam T on when the banelings get close to it. Any possible timing that he could just like mass enough banes to bust your queens, would be after your baneling nest after speed finished and you can make 2 banes to kill all his banes.
Your 2 queens should be your first priority after making 0-6 lings to hold against his first 0-6 lings when his pool pops. You need them to pool energy right away, for transfuse, and to block the ramp.
I do 10 drone scout too, because of 10 poolers. 10 drone scout on 2 player map means you see before throwing down 14 hatch that you should go pool first (also against 6 pools, but you can hold any 6 pool with hatch first so im not worried about 6 pools, but i am worried about 10 pools). I know it's a big econ hit, but I make up for it by super late pool against hatch first i guess, and against 14/14 you are already ahead by going hatch first. Pros never 10 drone scout... but i dont know why, it seems 80% of pro level zvz is losing to 10 pool because of hatch first or losing to hatch first because of going 14/14 and so on...
|
On April 25 2012 14:42 Buckshot9044 wrote:
I have been getting destroyed in ZvP lately. I have been trying to find information on scouting tips but can't find anything that i need. I keep getting killed by a zealot rush opening into stargate. The zealots deny my 3rd and then the stargate units deny it again. If they don't go stargate i get a follow up robo all in. How are zergs supposed to deal with this? with the current stephano build order that is the standard now I feel toss are meta gaming it really hard. I am a mid masters zerg and have no idea when to stop drone production for these early attacks because if you don't get your 200 supply by 11-12 minutes protoss can defend until they have colossi storm mother ship A click win. What are other zergs doing to negate this early pressure?
what league are you in? I think the problem is less units 'denying' your third, and more about you taking your third late or not droning up correctly or making units wayyyy too early. Toss can't do anything to deny your third. If anything, they can pressure you and maybe kill you for droning too hard after taking your third, but they can never deny your third. That's why fast third is the standard response against any sort of expand play Toss does, because you can hold *anything*. Contrast that, to say, fast third CC in TvZ, which is just about a bo loss to roach/bane all-in.
Toss can only do a 4 gate +1 timing from FFE if he has no gas in nat. Check his nat, if he has no gas, throw down a roach warren at 6:30 (7:00 at absolute latest). A spine is helpful in buying a good crucial 20 seconds too, even if it isn't finished when his push initially arrives (3 zealots can't kill a spine instantly).
Post a rep. I can't imagine you are macro'ing properly if this is a problem. Are you getting your third at 25-35? Are you at at least 60 supply by the 8:00 mark?
You can check out my guide at:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038
That should really tell you everything.
|
On April 25 2012 20:31 Karak wrote:
Highish masters zerg here. I'm the worst at holding 14/14 bane all-in when going hatch first. I don't particularly like going roaches after the hatch first. I would much prefer to go into speedling/bane. Roaches make me feel so passive.
My usual open is:
15 hatch
16 gas
15 pool
Does this seem fine? Sometimes I go 15 hatch, 15 pool, 15 gas if it's a closer spawn position. (If I do 10 drone scout, as discussed below, and see him not pull off gas... I'll usually pull 1 guy off gas and open roach).
Things I've been considering doing:
1) Drone scouting to see if he pulls off gas and going roaches if he doesn't pull off gas... otherwise just going speed, pulling 1 drone off gas into bane nest.
2) Gasless ... 2 queens, spine, some lings.
3) Bane nest with first 50 gas, going defensive slow lings, banes 1 queen eventually 2.
4) spine right away delaying 2nd queen and other things for quite a while
5) trying to just micro my lings and queens vs the bane while researching speed (jk on this one i suck too bad).
What's the standard play assuming we don't want to go roach? I know many pros don't drone scout, so I had been doing that for a while, but now I'm sending like a 10 scout to check for 10 pool and then gas timings.
one possibility, is what Stephano used to do a couple of months ago, i.e. hatch first with late gas. I have been doing that myself, and if you are precise on your gas/speed/bane timings, it's fine. I personnally very much like it.
Basically the bo is the following.
- drone scout @ 10 (for your drone to arrive at his base just before it planted down his hatch if he does, and before you actually made your hatch, so that you can go for pool first in case of early pool).
- 15 hatch
- 15 pool
-17 overlord
@ 18 drones, save up larvae. then , make 8 lings, 2 queens and one spine. it should bring you to 25 food. make one overlord then.
Then two possibilites.
-your opponent doesn't expand. In that case, add spines and queens, and some zerglings possibly. To defend the all in, you need to split your lings prevently and put them on hold position until banes are gone. It's not necessary to take gas before his all-in actually happened. If after an unusually long time, his all in has not happened yet, of course you can squeeze drones and gas... but this doesn't happen much.
- you see your opponent expand, take a gas and drone. make sure to block the ramp with queens, and make a third queen. Then be precise on your timings: @100 gas make speed; and then @50 gas, banes. Finally make 3 or 4 banes. if you are late on those timings, an all-in may kill you. But if you are on time, it should be working. speed before banes is better in my opinion, even though probably a bit less safe in the short term, because otherwise your speed will be very very late, and you will suffer from that (your third will be late, he will drone freely).
Of course, at any moment, you should be ready to drop what you are doing and just mass up lings... So make sure you have some free space, in order to spam lings asap if necessary.
Another difficulty is to scout on time if he is expanding. On most maps, it'll be fine; but on some, you may want to send one of your slowlings to check what's happening (and you need to hide it as much as you can). Otherwise, you have to bet or play semi defensive, like making another spine.
At least this is what I am doing, freely taken from Stephano.
|
^ can you link a vod of this build?
It sounds ridiculous. The opponent can do whatever the hell he wants - the main threat from hatch first is that if you dont do damage early on with a 1 base opening or just expand immediately and try to play catch up from slightly behind, you will get completely overrun by mass lings or ling/bane. But if the opponent sees no gas, then it's obvious that he can expand and make zero units and then he will be the one ahead economically because he will force you to make at least 1 spine and some units because you can't scout perfectly and he knows he doesnt have to make a single unit.
that was why i stopped going hatch first baneling. I could never get ling speed in time to threaten the opponent, so I was always behind in drones to 14/14 players because i was forced to make 4 banes while they could make just pure drone and know i wouldnt have speed for a long ass time, and by the time I did, they would have baneling nest even if they made it at 30+ supply after their hatch and a ton of drones.
The 'greediest' ive heard of is 17 gas. Which is perfectly fine i guess, nothing wrong with 17 gas instead of 15 gas. i think the issue i had with it was ling/bane attacks were slightly harder to deal with but whatever.
and making 8 lings blindly against a 14/14 who may just expand on 21 sounds like economic suicide. he gets his ling speed up way earlier AND gets a lot more drones AND can be greedy as fuck because he knows not a single unit will attack him for the next 2 minutes.
Another difficulty is to scout on time if he is expanding. On most maps, it'll be fine; but on some, you may want to send one of your slowlings to check what's happening (and you need to hide it as much as you can). Otherwise, you have to bet or play semi defensive, like making another spine.
The overlord you start out with should be going straight to their natural, always. And the 4th or 5th overlord can be sent to his third, although you will have speed by then and can see it... if it isn't obvious in other ways (he took the gas at his natural, that you spot with the overlord you put at natural that you moved to behind his gases when he got a queen at nat, you see roaches, etc).
|
On April 25 2012 21:42 Belial88 wrote:^ can you link a vod of this build? It sounds ridiculous. The opponent can do whatever the hell he wants - the main threat from hatch first is that if you dont do damage early on with a 1 base opening or just expand immediately and try to play catch up from slightly behind, you will get completely overrun by mass lings or ling/bane. But if the opponent sees no gas, then it's obvious that he can expand and make zero units and then he will be the one ahead economically because he will force you to make at least 1 spine and some units because you can't scout perfectly and he knows he doesnt have to make a single unit. that was why i stopped going hatch first baneling. I could never get ling speed in time to threaten the opponent, so I was always behind in drones to 14/14 players because i was forced to make 4 banes while they could make just pure drone and know i wouldnt have speed for a long ass time, and by the time I did, they would have baneling nest even if they made it at 30+ supply after their hatch and a ton of drones. The 'greediest' ive heard of is 17 gas. Which is perfectly fine i guess, nothing wrong with 17 gas instead of 15 gas. i think the issue i had with it was ling/bane attacks were slightly harder to deal with but whatever. and making 8 lings blindly against a 14/14 who may just expand on 21 sounds like economic suicide. he gets his ling speed up way earlier AND gets a lot more drones AND can be greedy as fuck because he knows not a single unit will attack him for the next 2 minutes. Show nested quote +Another difficulty is to scout on time if he is expanding. On most maps, it'll be fine; but on some, you may want to send one of your slowlings to check what's happening (and you need to hide it as much as you can). Otherwise, you have to bet or play semi defensive, like making another spine.
The overlord you start out with should be going straight to their natural, always. And the 4th or 5th overlord can be sent to his third, although you will have speed by then and can see it... if it isn't obvious in other ways (he took the gas at his natural, that you spot with the overlord you put at natural that you moved to behind his gases when he got a queen at nat, you see roaches, etc).
Why are you so unpleasant to read, Mr Belial?
You sound ridiculous when you assume things so arrogantly and without understanding them. Should I remind you that about three months ago, you were saying to everybody, including myself in this very thread, that everyone should always hatch first in Z v Z, because otherwise you would fall behind in economy. 14 gas 14 pool was an incredibly "stupid" thing to do then!
Apparently things have changed since then... except that you are still as arrogant as before. Event GMs don't show such a degree of certainty. So, I would be pleased if you didn't disregard everything that is not you as complete crap. I think (or hope) I am not the only one down here.
Concerning this build, you may consider it being bad, but it has been played at the highest level. Maybe in the 2 weeks trend that you seem to follow so obsequiously, it is outdated. But otherwise you can watch Stephano's games, in december 2011 I think is when I last checked it. I remember some games vs Idra when Stephano was in Korea with another name (can't remember). If I am correct, that was in Stephano pack replay number 3.
Your assumptions are wrong in many regards. You can be ahead in drones, because you have a hatch first and therefore are more larvae earlier than your opponent. From my personal experience, between such hatch first with spine and zerglings, and someone doing a speedling expand with only 2 lings, situation will be equal in drone count. Otherwise you will be slightly ahead.
Second, it is absolutely not sure that your opponent will scout you having no gas. especially because your queens are blocking your ramp.
Third, about scouting, obviously you can send your overlord to his nat, but guess what, sometimes you play on 4 player maps! and sometimes map is big and the overlord gets there a bit later. Subtle, isn't it?
|
Here is some quote of Belial, for those interested, from november. You will read how convinced Belial was when assuming that 14 gas / 14 pool was just for noobs (those who play "incorrectly" so to speak, 99% of players)...
Ideas change, arrogance remains.
On November 13 2011 01:45 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Belial! Why not being a bit more cautious in your assumptions? this is really not true! I am low master and everyday I win against masters who do not know how to defend against 14 gas 14 pool followed by baneling bust! This doesn't mean you should go for it every single game, or that you always win going baneling bust, but saying that it is easily stopped is just inaccurate.
Many high level players go 14 gas 14 pool. Plus going 14 gas 14 pool is completely different from 6 pooling! It just leads to aggressive strats, but is not all in by any mean, in the sense that you can transition out of early aggression without ending the game and without being behind (although you can make it all inish if you decide to).
High level players go for 14/14 in a BOX series, when metagaming is a big part of the game. On ladder, yea, I'll hatch first every time. When it's a BO3 against someone I've competed with before, there is no way I'm going to hatch first on Tal Darim. At low masters, yes, you can get away with 14/14 baneling aggression and outright kill hatch firsters. But at the 'normal' level of play (ie, when people play correctly) that should never happen. Don't get me wrong. If you aren't worried about making high masters, doing 14/14 is a great way to play zerg. It's fun, ling/bane aggression is cool... you know, like 4 gating can be fun too. But when you fight that right person, they'll make it look easy by just having 2 banelings ready for you and a spine. And then he's made 2-3 drones the whole time. Hell, you may not even notice, as you may go to mid+ game where the early game is less relevant (you'll look back on a loss saying 'aww i should've had burrow' or a win as 'haha my mutas fucked him up' when it was really just a macro lead from early game). Show nested quote +I kind of agree with you. You should stop talking like you know everything about zerg and be a bit easy on what's bad and what's not. It's just like you had a fucking revelation and suddenly started posting everywhere about your new knowledge of the zerg race. It's getting quite annoying. It's more like I don't have time to play right now, and so post here instead of doing what I normally would be able to do, play. I'd love to get feedback on what I say. If you think what I say is wrong, please, let me know, because more than once I've been corrected. But usually, it's when someone is willing to go through a custom with me to work out something specific, not because they have their panties in a bunch.
|
^ I've been quite open that I've been wrong on multiple occasions. I've never made it a secret that I am only mid-masters, and like anyone my level, don't quite understand the game fully.
I'll give you some more examples of some asinine stuff I've said, too. I guess you really like it:
1. When I insisted 3 gate expand was better than FFE.
2. Saying you can't hold a 7 or 8 pool if you don't cancel your hatch
3. Saying you can hold a cannon rush with hatch first
4. Saying 11 pool will get lings out in time to stop a cannon rush even if you dont use drone micro
5. upgrades on mutas are stupid in zvt
6. you should aim for 200/200 pure muta in zvp
7. making a 3rd hatchery anytime before 50 supply is not justified and a 50+ supply taken third is much better for your econ because you dont have enough drones that 3 mineral fields is better than 2, until 50+ supply.
8. mutas are bad in zvp
9. ultralisks are good in zvp
10. ultralisks are good.
11. roach/banerain/infestor is the best way to play zvp
12. colossi are imbalanced
13. blink is imbalanced
14. void rays are imbalanced
15. 2 base muta is the future of zvz
I'm sure there are plenty more stupid things I've said. I could probably link the threads where I stated the above, too.
That said, I don't think anything has changed about 14/14 being a build best suited for series matches instead of random ladder games or best of 1's. Unless you are playing on a map like scrap station or TDA or belshir beach where you can't double queen block (cough veto shitty map cough), you should always hatch first, unless metagaming is a consideration (anything from playing someone you know, to a best of 3 tournament series, to the other person not replying to your gl hf at the start).
Hatch first is just so much more solid than 14/14, and most higher level players go hatch first unless they are worried about metagaming and the opponent going early pool. A hell of a lot more people go 14/14, and you can get the almost bo win against them with hatch first, then people who go 9/10/11 pool (which is almost a bo loss to 14/14). So, mathemetically, hatch first is way more solid.
Also, that post was commenting about 14/14 ling/bane all-in. 14/14 ling/bane all-in will never beat a competent player who is on guard and didn't make a blunder like forget their pool or not hit hold position on his queens. It's super easy to hold with hatch first. Just make 1 spine, hold position with queens. Transfuse spine. Win. It's hard to hold if you are maybe going hatch first roach or baneling, but not with double queen on a map with a ramp.
At low masters or diamond, yea, 14/14 ling/bane will crush hatch first. But at masters+, it should never work.
I never said 14/14 was for newbs. I said 14/14 is a build to used best only when you are worried the opponent will early pool you.
|
Why are you so unpleasant to read, Mr Belial?
What is so unpleasant? Does what I say not make sense to you? Are you surprised, that I would be surprised, that a build stephano did a couple times outside of tournament play, a few months ago, might be flawed, compared to the build every single pro player uses when going hatch first?
I didn't assume anything. Hence, why I was asking questions. God forbid I ask questions. Can't be questioning other forum posters. Next time I'll be sure to shut my mouth and just accept what you say as good advice. Everyone here is giving good advice, yay!
Please link the replays, I'd love to see how it actually worked out. With no gas taken, obviously his income will skyrocket. If he was playing idra, I wouldn't be surprised - he is playing an incredibly risky style that is 100% gambling the opponent won't attack. If you were playing idra in a tournament series, gasless hatch first sounds like an absolutely amazing build to use. I don't think a game, almost half a year ago, used by stephano and never by anyone else, in a single series, against idra, is the best indication of the solidity of that build...
but like I said. Please, post the link. I'm sure there are questions that stephano had answered in his own way, and there are benefits to such a 'risky' build.
Your assumptions are wrong in many regards. You can be ahead in drones, because you have a hatch first and therefore are more larvae earlier than your opponent. From my personal experience, between such hatch first with spine and zerglings, and someone doing a speedling expand with only 2 lings, situation will be equal in drone count. Otherwise you will be slightly ahead.
You just said you make 8 blind lings right off the bat. Whatever the build is, if you are making 8 blind lings right off the bat with the hatch first when the opponent is going 14/14 and may be expanding at 21, you are just going to behind in drones. It's okay, you can make it up with superior production, or the threat of superior production, to force the opponent to make quick banes or units - but if you go gasless, the opponent knows for sure you can't do that because slowlings are useless against speedlings and static D and queens and banes, so he can literally just go 14/14/21, and make only drones for the next 3 minutes because he knows you won't be able to put on ANY aggression any time soon.
At best, you do this gasless build and, without any scouting information, you make an extra queen, don't inject, and make 3 + spines because if someone with speed on 2 hatches just made a round of lings from his 2x inject, he would autowin unless you had banes and speed of your own, but he knows you won't have that for a very long time if you are opening gasless, and made more than 1 spine. If you make zero units, that's just stupid gambling that the opponent just reads you having no speed and banes, and makes a round of lings.
It's like toss has to make 2 cannons if they couldnt scout if Z took gas or made a third. If you go gasless hatch first, you have to make some shit at the bare minimum, to be safe. And that's assuming you make the bare minimum with your gasless expand - god forbid you make a few extra lings against someone who goes 14/14/21 pure drones.
Like I said, I don't know the build. Please link. These are just concerns that come to me, from reading what you said. Obviously, I have no fucking clue, because I've never seen the build before. It just seems the natural inclination of the course of the game. I mean, does what I say make sense? Or does it just sound all ridiculous to you that if 14/14/21 makes pure drones, which is very very common as an option, you will end up behind if you made 8 lings and 2 spines and no gas, right?
Queens aren't going to block a ramp from a drone scout or overlord scout. Yes, most pro zvz don't drone scout, but if you are going 14/14, and you make 4 lings right away, they will arrive in your base before your 2 queens. They will actually arrive in time to scout your base, if they want to, when your lings are only just about to pop out.
Third, about scouting, obviously you can send your overlord to his nat, but guess what, sometimes you play on 4 player maps! and sometimes map is big and the overlord gets there a bit later. Subtle, isn't it?
You should know where he spawned soon enough to see if he expanded or not, if not with an overlord, with a drone scout or ling scout.
|
I mean, it's pretty common knowledge that hatch first > pool first > 10 pool > hatch first, and that 10 pool is not too standard, while the other two are. With this coinflip element though, pool first like 14/14 is viable if you suspect a 10 pool, but assuming what's most common and standard, hatch first is the better build to go with unless metagaming is a factor, like in a best of series. It's not hard logic to understand.
|
This thread is big enough as is. IMO keep the personal stuff out of it, and keep it civil :D
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
