|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
hi guys!
I need your help in Z v Z: I am wondering how to play 3 base roaches vs 2 base mutas. Basically what I am doing is opening hatch first, and when I have lingspeed (i.e. quite late, cause I take gas only when I see my opponent expanding); make a bunch of lings while expanding (so quite early). Then I drone, tech to lair, with double upgrades and make roaches (timings depending on what I see).
Now my problem is that when my opponent goes mutas, I am having hard time defending. what I do is make a bunch of spores (like 3 or 4 at each base), while droning, teching to infestors, and trying to deny his expands, with roaches and/or lings. and making a big push later
Now here are my few questions:
- What are the lair timings and gas and upgrade timings when going for a quick third like that? I tend to make lair when I can, after I bought speed, baneling nest and a couple of banelings; while taking my 2nd 3rd and 4th gas when I am oversaturated with drones on two mineral lines. It is usually at the same time that my third is building up. But I feel I could delay that for higher drone count maybe. (although at that stage of the game, I am not sure whether he is going for roach or muta based play, and I feel if I play against roaches, it is necessary to get a slightly quicker lair/ tech /gas.
- How fast should I try to saturate my third with drones, as opposed to make it safe with spores/roaches mix? for defense, would you recommend like 2 spores at each base, and then queens added; or more spores and less queens?
- how should i attack? straight all in before his mutas? harass with lings? later big push? Sometimes I feel i have to waste my roaches in an attack in order to get the time for spores... should I absolutely avoid that? I also feel that lings runbys are nice, but I am not sure either... The thing is : at what cost should I try to deny his third or his fourth?
- what should be my unit composition? should I necessarily aim at some queen/infestor/roach mix? Cause I find queens to be very very slow, so a bit annoying for a push. Also, how does that depends on whether he sticks to mutas or transition out to some roach based play?
Thanks a lot guys!
|
On April 22 2012 19:15 Flonomenalz wrote:
@Glitch I've been getting 3-4 roaches early on, allowing me to take a faster third, at the cost of delaying my Lair, instead of defending with static sim city. I find it works much better against hellion openings.
At what time/supply do you drop your roach warren, and how does this affect your gas timings?
Also, if the hellions attack your third and you send your roaches, how do you stop them from just running into your natural or main and doing a bunch of damage?
Sorry for all the newb questions, lol.
|
How are you supposed to play against a zerg that goes spire and makes ~8 mutas and nothing more? Everytime I encounter it, they deny my 3rd and contain me while gaining a massive economy advantage (by taking their 3rd ofc), if I try to all-in them with Roach/ling they constantly reduce your army size with mutas and usually have a spine wall protecting their bases. I've tried making more queens, but even if I get my 3rd up, it'll still be much later than my opponent's. I've had some success with nydus all-in but there's obviously a solution to this without using an all-in. Can someone explain how to play against this? 
|
On April 23 2012 02:01 Glitch890 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 19:15 Flonomenalz wrote:
@Glitch I've been getting 3-4 roaches early on, allowing me to take a faster third, at the cost of delaying my Lair, instead of defending with static sim city. I find it works much better against hellion openings. At what time/supply do you drop your roach warren, and how does this affect your gas timings? Also, if the hellions attack your third and you send your roaches, how do you stop them from just running into your natural or main and doing a bunch of damage? Sorry for all the newb questions, lol.
A guide I wrote before zergs started realizing how good roaches are early game zvt http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306582
You only need to send a couple roaches to the third and you should have a spine at natural unless you are going super fast roaches like staring the roach warren at like 4:15 or something.
Just split the roaches up, if he has you know 6+ hellions I would make some more roaches ^^.
|
On April 23 2012 04:10 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 02:01 Glitch890 wrote:On April 22 2012 19:15 Flonomenalz wrote:
@Glitch I've been getting 3-4 roaches early on, allowing me to take a faster third, at the cost of delaying my Lair, instead of defending with static sim city. I find it works much better against hellion openings. At what time/supply do you drop your roach warren, and how does this affect your gas timings? Also, if the hellions attack your third and you send your roaches, how do you stop them from just running into your natural or main and doing a bunch of damage? Sorry for all the newb questions, lol. A guide I wrote before zergs started realizing how good roaches are early game zvt http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306582You only need to send a couple roaches to the third and you should have a spine at natural unless you are going super fast roaches like staring the roach warren at like 4:15 or something. Just split the roaches up, if he has you know 6+ hellions I would make some more roaches ^^.
Won't I automatically be behind since I have to make 2 "armies" of gas units to defend one "army" of mineral only units? I say two because roaches are too slow to meet and fight all together, so I'll have to make enough to defend two locations.
|
simple question: vs terran on metalopolis: where do u send your first overlord after u see that the opponent is not right in front of your base? in particular i don't know where to send it if the opponent is cross position because is difficult to have a safe spot scouting the terran natural and seeing if he's expanding.. and as well, send the overlord between the two bases on the other side of the map is quite risky because of marines..
|
When should I time my gas when I am going fast 3rd vs FFE after going a 14/14/16 opener?
Another question is how long should I drone if P is going FFE?
|
On April 23 2012 05:34 Glitch890 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 04:10 blade55555 wrote:On April 23 2012 02:01 Glitch890 wrote:On April 22 2012 19:15 Flonomenalz wrote:
@Glitch I've been getting 3-4 roaches early on, allowing me to take a faster third, at the cost of delaying my Lair, instead of defending with static sim city. I find it works much better against hellion openings. At what time/supply do you drop your roach warren, and how does this affect your gas timings? Also, if the hellions attack your third and you send your roaches, how do you stop them from just running into your natural or main and doing a bunch of damage? Sorry for all the newb questions, lol. A guide I wrote before zergs started realizing how good roaches are early game zvt http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306582You only need to send a couple roaches to the third and you should have a spine at natural unless you are going super fast roaches like staring the roach warren at like 4:15 or something. Just split the roaches up, if he has you know 6+ hellions I would make some more roaches ^^. Won't I automatically be behind since I have to make 2 "armies" of gas units to defend one "army" of mineral only units? I say two because roaches are too slow to meet and fight all together, so I'll have to make enough to defend two locations.
No, unless you are making to many. You don't need many roaches, if there are only 4 hellions 2 at third + natural is all you need. If you are making 10+ vs 4 hellions yes you will be behind.
If he is making 6 or even 8+ hellions you will not be put behind if you are making more roaches. You shouldn't need many roaches anyway only way you'll get behind is if that's all you are making and you aren't pushing with them. Just be smart, dont' make to many and don't have to many gases. You should only have 1 gas until you start your third then take gas 2/3. This allows you to afford roaches easily and drone hard.
|
On April 23 2012 06:21 eParadox wrote:
When should I time my gas when I am going fast 3rd vs FFE after going a 14/14/16 opener?
Another question is how long should I drone if P is going FFE?
what is that 14/14/16 opening? this sounds a bit early for hatcheries ?
anyway for gas timings, a good standard is to start 2 gas at 6:00. Not the only one, but a good standard. This is what stephano does for a three base roach timing push. You can use your 1st 100 gas for lair, your 2nd 100 gas for zergling speed.
of course, if you play more gas heavy strat (with mutas for instance or infestors) then you probably want to change this a bit...
|
On April 23 2012 06:29 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 05:34 Glitch890 wrote:On April 23 2012 04:10 blade55555 wrote:On April 23 2012 02:01 Glitch890 wrote:On April 22 2012 19:15 Flonomenalz wrote:
@Glitch I've been getting 3-4 roaches early on, allowing me to take a faster third, at the cost of delaying my Lair, instead of defending with static sim city. I find it works much better against hellion openings. At what time/supply do you drop your roach warren, and how does this affect your gas timings? Also, if the hellions attack your third and you send your roaches, how do you stop them from just running into your natural or main and doing a bunch of damage? Sorry for all the newb questions, lol. A guide I wrote before zergs started realizing how good roaches are early game zvt http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306582You only need to send a couple roaches to the third and you should have a spine at natural unless you are going super fast roaches like staring the roach warren at like 4:15 or something. Just split the roaches up, if he has you know 6+ hellions I would make some more roaches ^^. Won't I automatically be behind since I have to make 2 "armies" of gas units to defend one "army" of mineral only units? I say two because roaches are too slow to meet and fight all together, so I'll have to make enough to defend two locations. No, unless you are making to many. You don't need many roaches, if there are only 4 hellions 2 at third + natural is all you need. If you are making 10+ vs 4 hellions yes you will be behind. If he is making 6 or even 8+ hellions you will not be put behind if you are making more roaches. You shouldn't need many roaches anyway only way you'll get behind is if that's all you are making and you aren't pushing with them. Just be smart, dont' make to many and don't have to many gases. You should only have 1 gas until you start your third then take gas 2/3. This allows you to afford roaches easily and drone hard.
Awesome. Thanks blade. I've also felt that zerg is put behind since you need gas unit to defend mineral only units (banes for marines, roaches for hellions) in ZvT, but I also know that I'm a scrub. Is my thinking way off, and why?
|
Hey guys, I want to know, how do you read gas timings in PvZ? A lot of casters talk about how crucial it is to know the gas timings on say, Daybreak where you can see if toss takes the gases on the nat or not, and when. How do you read these gas timings? What does early 4 gas mean? Late 4 gas? 3 gas? What's the usual time that toss takes 4 gas?
|
Hello Guys. How do you deal effectively with a lategame terran mech army which is composed of;
Some bfh hellions, thors, 3-4 banshees with a raven and some tanks. I went heavy roach but basically had a bunch of banshees just getting potshots on my units that I cant deal with. I cant make mutas cause of the sheer amount of thors is corruptor the correct solution or is infestors the correct unit?
|
On April 23 2012 07:19 Thienan567 wrote:
Hey guys, I want to know, how do you read gas timings in PvZ? A lot of casters talk about how crucial it is to know the gas timings on say, Daybreak where you can see if toss takes the gases on the nat or not, and when. How do you read these gas timings? What does early 4 gas mean? Late 4 gas? 3 gas? What's the usual time that toss takes 4 gas?
In general you should just keep an overlord near the natural gases to spot when they go down. If none go down you should probably stop droning earlier as fast zealot pressure is likely coming your way. If they put down the gases you can drone a bit more and expect a tech play. The more gases the more "techy" it is (3 gas might just be blink while 4 could be stargate).
This is not exact, but it the general idea behind watching the natural gases.
|
On April 23 2012 11:17 Advocado wrote:
Hello Guys. How do you deal effectively with a lategame terran mech army which is composed of;
Some bfh hellions, thors, 3-4 banshees with a raven and some tanks. I went heavy roach but basically had a bunch of banshees just getting potshots on my units that I cant deal with. I cant make mutas cause of the sheer amount of thors is corruptor the correct solution or is infestors the correct unit?
Ultimately you want brood lord/infestor/corrupter. But as transitions units, ling/roach/muta/infestor works well enough to buy time for brood lords.
Lings shouldn't engage the main army until the bfhs are dead, but they can do run-bys in his main once he moves out with his slow army, deny expansions and possibly flank him from behind to get his thors/tanks when he engages. They are also a good reinforcement unit as the BFHs tend to die first in a big battle.
Mutas can also counter him once he moves out, force him to make a ton of missile turrets to defend unless he wants to leave a thor at each base. They do well in preventing/cleaning up hellion drops. In an engagement, they soak up damage pretty well against thors if you use hold position so that they don't clump up. Mutas have target priority and thors only do 16 dps against mutas instead of 47 dps vs roaches. Mutas are more expensive than roaches though, so be careful when doing this.
Infestors can fungal the hellions and they'll be easy targets for the roaches. They can also neural parasite the thors from behind your roaches.
Roaches are pretty good all around, and the only ground unit that isn't hard countered by thors or hellions. Burrow movement can often catch him by surprise if he hasn't got a raven with him.
|
On April 23 2012 07:19 Thienan567 wrote:
Hey guys, I want to know, how do you read gas timings in PvZ? A lot of casters talk about how crucial it is to know the gas timings on say, Daybreak where you can see if toss takes the gases on the nat or not, and when. How do you read these gas timings? What does early 4 gas mean? Late 4 gas? 3 gas? What's the usual time that toss takes 4 gas?
Check this guide under "Identifying the Build":
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038
Just remember that these are more like indicators as opposed to sure tells.
|
Really struggling in my ZvP match up. I don't seem to be getting better at all, only worse. Literally. I'm trying to do the 12 min max, however nearly every game, the protoss comes at you with zealot harass. Sometimes it's just one or two, sometimes its like 6. I'm wondering how you guys deal with this and still hit the timings? I usually get 1-2 spines per base, but sometimes it just isn't enough. Also how do you scout this? Especially if they take the watch towers and you only have 1-2 lings out on the map.
2nd. I have no idea how to transition. I played a guy on metalopolis who took a third, walled off the entrance to it, and made me fight in a small choke while FF'ing it and having 3-4 immortals. There was no way I could possibly break it. I took a 4th and 5th, but he just pushed 5 mins later with a complete death ball and I only killed maybe 10 supply worth of units. I'm completely lost.
|
On April 24 2012 01:26 Chinesewonder wrote:
Really struggling in my ZvP match up. I don't seem to be getting better at all, only worse. Literally. I'm trying to do the 12 min max, however nearly every game, the protoss comes at you with zealot harass. Sometimes it's just one or two, sometimes its like 6. I'm wondering how you guys deal with this and still hit the timings? I usually get 1-2 spines per base, but sometimes it just isn't enough. Also how do you scout this? Especially if they take the watch towers and you only have 1-2 lings out on the map.
2nd. I have no idea how to transition. I played a guy on metalopolis who took a third, walled off the entrance to it, and made me fight in a small choke while FF'ing it and having 3-4 immortals. There was no way I could possibly break it. I took a 4th and 5th, but he just pushed 5 mins later with a complete death ball and I only killed maybe 10 supply worth of units. I'm completely lost.
You shouldn't be building spines in your bases, especially not in response to "light" pressure like 1-2 zealots. You want to keep your timings the same when protoss hits you with these early types of pressure, it's important not to overreact. Here's how you should approach early zealots in ZvP:
First, scout how many zealots he's moving out with. See if they're opening 1 gate or 2 gate, if it's only 1 gate it'll be 2-3 zealot at most. When you see these moving through the middle of the map, don't panic. Bring all your lings to your 3rd, build 2-3 extra sets of lings and go right back to droning. Go right back into droning afterwards, because you need to reach a solid worker count to support your roach production at 8:15-8:30. If he moves into your 3rd with 2-3 zealots, you will win by engaging on creep with your queen and 8-12 lings. Zealots should never be a surprise coming into your 3rd - just hold the xel and respond with a handful of slow lings.
|
On April 24 2012 01:26 Chinesewonder wrote:
Really struggling in my ZvP match up. I don't seem to be getting better at all, only worse. Literally. I'm trying to do the 12 min max, however nearly every game, the protoss comes at you with zealot harass. Sometimes it's just one or two, sometimes its like 6. I'm wondering how you guys deal with this and still hit the timings? I usually get 1-2 spines per base, but sometimes it just isn't enough. Also how do you scout this? Especially if they take the watch towers and you only have 1-2 lings out on the map.
2nd. I have no idea how to transition. I played a guy on metalopolis who took a third, walled off the entrance to it, and made me fight in a small choke while FF'ing it and having 3-4 immortals. There was no way I could possibly break it. I took a 4th and 5th, but he just pushed 5 mins later with a complete death ball and I only killed maybe 10 supply worth of units. I'm completely lost.
And remember not to let these early types of pressure disrupt you from reaching your goal: 3 fully saturated mineral patch with 4 gas geysers to support 4-hatchery Roach/Ling production. Don't go into roach production for long if you haven't reached at least 16 drones mining minerals at main/natural/third.
|
On April 23 2012 11:17 Advocado wrote:
Hello Guys. How do you deal effectively with a lategame terran mech army which is composed of;
Some bfh hellions, thors, 3-4 banshees with a raven and some tanks. I went heavy roach but basically had a bunch of banshees just getting potshots on my units that I cant deal with. I cant make mutas cause of the sheer amount of thors is corruptor the correct solution or is infestors the correct unit?
Mass roach is an excellent mid-game composition against Terran. Typically terran mech players will go for early pressure (Hellions, banshees) and then transition into a mid game (2base) and/or a late game (3base) timing attack. Since a large upgraded roach army trades fairly well with medium-sized pure-mech armies, the goal of your mass roach composition is to deal with 2base terran timing attacks OR delay/deny the terran's 3rd. However, the closer that mech army gets to maxed out, the weaker a roach army becomes. If the terran player is on three bases, you cannot stay on roach tech: and your build must account for the fact that some terran players will reach three bases.
In this scenario, the best response is to go Infestor --> Hive --> Broodlord. Getting 6-8 infestors fairly early will let you save up some energy to fungal/neural, which is particularly effective against hellions and thors respectively. Broodlords are your ultimate goal, though, and if you reach a critical broodlord count with a handful of infestors and a nice roach army, it's going to be difficult for terran to secure additional bases or get enough vikings out in time. If your brood tech is late, you can delay for as long as possible with Roach/Infestor, but I'd say you should know how to reach broodlord tech off 4 bases by 16-18min after a mass-roach midgame.
|
Hi Zerg players! I'm a high Masters Terran player who recently decided to switch to Zerg. I've played around a bit in customs and have done a few ladder games and I have a lot of stuff to ask!
First off: is 14 gas/14 pool the standard ZvZ and ZvP build? Do I pull off gas at 100? When do I put them back on? Around what supply should I expand? 14 hatch 13 pool versus Terran?
#2: If I see Protoss forge fast expand, what is the basic build order for the fast third into mass roach?
#3: What are the most important times to scout versus Terran and Protoss? Like what in-game time should I scout?
#4: Is it a bad idea to blindly get spore crawlers at every hatch if you're in the dark?
#5: Ground Upgrades. When do you get them?
#6: How do you deal with Colossus before Broodlords? Just a lot of roaches and fungals?
#7: When do you typically go for Lair?
#8: And finally, how many gases do you need for roaches? 2ish?
Sorry for the long post I'm a complete Zerg noob.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
