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On April 20 2012 16:51 fobtasticfury wrote:
im relatively new to zerg. i have above average mechanics for a silver player, but my game sense is pretty bad. as zerg, i like to be aggressive, but i feel pressured to stay up in the worker count. when should i stop making workers and begin attacking?
This is kind of the trick behind playing Zerg. It all depends on what the opponent is doing. If you want to be agressive, the best thing you can usually do is drone up untill you have 16 workers on the minerals of all your bases. For example, in the standard ZvP nowadays, Zerg takes 3 bases and drones up untill it has 12 Drones on gas and 16*3=48 drones on minerals. Then it just starts making roaches and lings, and starts attacking.
I also have a question: Say both players open Hatch first in ZvZ, and I'd like to do a +1 Roach timing. I'd have to hit well before muta's are out, but I'd also have to make sure I have enough drones to support a ton of Roaches. At what amount of drones would you make Evo/Roach Warren, and at what amount would you start making Roaches?
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Thanks Anacletus & Sbrubbles for your responses.
I think you hit the nail on the head with some of your answers, it's made me realise i'm not scouting the follow up's correctly and in some cases not at all. Like with a helion push, I will see that but then not take into account the follow up which is what is getting me into trouble, ie the banshees turning up and not being ready. So you have made me realise I need to now take the next step in scouting by learning how to judge what is coming after the initial 'push'.
Generally i struggle with air from any race at the moment, after reading your comments i think it's just lack of scouting the base correctly. I need to remember to get a few ovies up near their base fast ready to scout the base around 6-8 mins, so I can then get a spire(etc) up in good time.
I've started to use alot more queens now, going to see if this helps more. I hadn't considered spreading the creep to help the queens deal with this before, it's a nice little touch which will be very important.
As for the mech play, I like the idea of an ovie drop they gets my mind working atleast for keeping a slow moving terran on their toes a bit. Not saying this is always the answer but it starts to get me thinking about other ways to exploit their slowness round the map. What I do worry about though is chucking too many units away killing his base and not having enough to hold it when he decides to push my front because he doesnt have a base left to defend. I guess that will come with good macro.
Thanks for all your help so far, it's been really useful.
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I recently played this game against protoss where I got cannon rushed at natural so I just expanded on third and delayed the expo on the natural until I cleared the cannon and pylons with my spine crawler, after that I just had no idea what to do all my timings were fucked up and I ended up dying to 7 gate blink stalker push.
So my question is what to do after this kind of situation, should I just tech or try to go for some roach bust or somthing?
Here is replay: http://drop.sc/164025
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On April 20 2012 17:22 Bahamuth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 16:51 fobtasticfury wrote:
im relatively new to zerg. i have above average mechanics for a silver player, but my game sense is pretty bad. as zerg, i like to be aggressive, but i feel pressured to stay up in the worker count. when should i stop making workers and begin attacking? This is kind of the trick behind playing Zerg. It all depends on what the opponent is doing. If you want to be agressive, the best thing you can usually do is drone up untill you have 16 workers on the minerals of all your bases. For example, in the standard ZvP nowadays, Zerg takes 3 bases and drones up untill it has 12 Drones on gas and 16*3=48 drones on minerals. Then it just starts making roaches and lings, and starts attacking. I also have a question: Say both players open Hatch first in ZvZ, and I'd like to do a +1 Roach timing. I'd have to hit well before muta's are out, but I'd also have to make sure I have enough drones to support a ton of Roaches. At what amount of drones would you make Evo/Roach Warren, and at what amount would you start making Roaches?
I believe optimal saturation for 2 base mass roach production is 3 gas 16 mins fully saturated, therefore 9 on gas and 32 on minerals - 41. I'd advise to have a few more just so that you can "have" a 3rd, 4th gas and extra tech if you need.
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What do you do when a terran denies your third (fairly early on) with a single banshee or so?
I mean... I don't necessarily want to tech to muta (due to the tendency of mass rine) but a) usually I don't have creep that far and so dragging queens takes a while...
Is the answer creep & queens?
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rank 14 368 pts in masters, i was wondering if anyone could answer this. What do you do if you see a 1basing protoss? i dont know what the gas timmings are quite cause its so new to play against when your used to playing against 2base or 3 base agression. And what do you think i shoul dscout for since hes blocked off and could be doing a number of things.
1 more thing the gas timmings for him i dont know what is standard and whawt isent only that they get there gas after there gateway or somthing lol.
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On April 21 2012 00:56 izual155 wrote:
rank 14 368 pts in masters, i was wondering if anyone could answer this. What do you do if you see a 1basing protoss? i dont know what the gas timmings are quite cause its so new to play against when your used to playing against 2base or 3 base agression. And what do you think i shoul dscout for since hes blocked off and could be doing a number of things.
1 more thing the gas timmings for him i dont know what is standard and whawt isent only that they get there gas after there gateway or somthing lol.
I assume your build opener is 15-15 or 14-16 (or something like that) so you should be scouting at our around 14 with a drone. Now that your drone is in his base you'll see the standard 1-base gateway block and him having one gas upon entry. You need to make a choice now, to gas steal or just patrol the drone. Gas stealing guarantees you knowing if he is 4-gating or some 1-gate expand or other all-in.
1) if you scout him not taking a second gas or expanding expect a 4-gate and take gas around 16-18 supply for ling speed and roaches in case he does 5-gate zealots and be sure to drop spines.
2) if you see him take the gas you need to get a few lings to scout his units and fly your ovie over his base at around 6:00-6:30~. There are a few possible things that you could see.
*) if you scout sentries after zealot you should expect and see him expanding. In this case you should drop a roach warren around 6:00-6:30~ in case of a 5-gate. You should take a slightly delayed third and macro up (be sure to watch for chrono on his forge, it could point towards a 5-gate all in which you will NEED roaches for +1 zealots).
*) stargate or dark shrine should be assumed if you scout double gas and minimal units (1 zealot 1 stalker) and you should drop an early metabolic chamber and one spore in each mineral line as well as making extra queens for transfuse on the spore and creep spread.
*) if you scout a robo or twilight(blink stalkers) you should proceed to create mass +1 ling and you should do your best to try and force him to use force-fields before he gets to your base if he is going immortals and keep his stalker count low if he is going blink stalkers. Also keep in mind you should do your best to kill any proxy pylon he creates.
I hope that this helps - and if you have any more questions toss me a few - I have a few exemplary replays of holds of a few of these particular builds.
Happy laddering! 
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On April 20 2012 20:51 KissMyArse wrote:
What do you do when a terran denies your third (fairly early on) with a single banshee or so?
I mean... I don't necessarily want to tech to muta (due to the tendency of mass rine) but a) usually I don't have creep that far and so dragging queens takes a while...
Is the answer creep & queens?
Yes you should always create 3 queens any game and spread creep - when you scout with your ovie you should see if he is getting cloak or not, and if he is drop your meta chamber around 6:00~. If not you should still drop an extra queen and try and get it over to protect your third. Spreading creep is very important as well - you are on the right track with your defensive ideals.
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On April 20 2012 00:47 yorkey wrote:
Hi all,
I'm only playing at a high gold/plat level at the moment but i'm finding as i progress up the ladder i hit a wall with terrans. I find at lower levels terrans seem to stick to heavy marines which with good scouting is quite easy to deal, to a certain point. But as i move up i'm finding quite a few terrans will go helions into banshees. Now the helions is the ok part, they don't tend to cause me too many issues but i struggle with the banshee. Dealing with one or two banshees is ok as long as i scout it but lately iv been finding they will back out with their two banshees and come back a few mins later with 5/6 of them and do real damage because i havn't gone down the path of making units to deal with this.
So the problem I have is that i find i'm too late responding to a proper air assult. When spores don't cut it should I be rushing hydras? muta/curruptors? or just adding more spores?
It's not something i've had to deal with alot until recently when a few seem to be doing it to me and i find because i'm dealing with the helions the banshees are difficult to deal with, 1 or 2 fine but its when they add more on. I think my lack of scouting this is a big issue here but i'm just looking for the best way to deal with a big banshee push like that, whats the quickest way to make sure i don't die to this.
I'm also struggling vs a terran mech army, whats the right mix to be using against , tanks thors and helions?
low masters zerg, i love zvt and just faced hellion expo into cloaked banshee yesterday, so i'll describe how i fended it off.
most zergs get a third queen, i am no exception. so i had three queens and a frontal spine when the first banshee hit, no evo no lair. first thing i dois start a lair at the main and a queen at the natural, then start an evo at the base where the banshee is not. run drones as needed and use all three queens to force a cloak or a retreat. save energy for transfuse and build only drones. anytime a banshee comes in uncloaked, fight with your queens, and pull back the targeted one as soon as it takes a few hits. transfuse as you can, and put down one spore per mineral line when the evo completes, then morph one overseer, bound to queen control group or queued to follow all three queens. you should be safe at this point against single port banshee, which is what usually follows hellions, so just start back into taking a third, grabbing spire, etc. if he's getting a ton of banshees (i.e. two port banshee), i put down a spire, then an extra spore per base, and an third extra spore hugging the spire. mutas beat banshees, period. no hydras, they are terrible against banshees; even an infestation pit for the ability to fungal is better than hydras.
if he's able to hide that number of banshees, you are not scouting. you want a lair as soon as you see banshees anyway, so don't hesitate to morph an overseer and fly in, or poke the front with lings. if he's on one base after the first banshees have come and gone, scout as best you can, but realize that there're probably more on the way, and add queens to be safe, and be prepared to build a few mutalisks as soon as the spire finishes.
vs mech, you want BLs if he ha a sizeable mech army of even composition). otherewise, mass roach with dual upgrades is the default..
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matchups vT and vP while going 15/15: what is more beneficial? when both queens spawn have them lay tumors first or just larva then next round tumor or get a 3rd queen as soon as money available?
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On April 21 2012 09:34 Mvrio wrote:
matchups vT and vP while going 15/15: what is more beneficial? when both queens spawn have them lay tumors first or just larva then next round tumor or get a 3rd queen as soon as money available?
I think it's common for the queen in the main to spawn larvae while the queen at the nat puts down a creep tumour. At least against T it's good to have as much creep started as possible before hellions arrive, and I'm fairly sure you can't afford to spend all the larvae from 2 injects so early on.
Connecting main to nat can also be done, of course.
I'm only rank 1 diamond though, and fairly new to zerg, so take that with a grain of salt.
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what is the best response to a gateway expand when playing toss? i feel like if i go early 3 hatch (with or without ling speed) i feel like i cant hold off an early gateway timing (comes out earlier with a gateway expand vs. a FFE). am i crazy or do i have to stick on 2 base longer than i do vs. a FFE?
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ugh...thoughts on dealing with 2 base sentry/stalker/immortal all-in? It seems to hit early enough that I can't get a significant tech advantage and is cost effective enough to deal with infinite roaches :/
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On April 21 2012 12:50 Malstriks wrote:
what is the best response to a gateway expand when playing toss? i feel like if i go early 3 hatch (with or without ling speed) i feel like i cant hold off an early gateway timing (comes out earlier with a gateway expand vs. a FFE). am i crazy or do i have to stick on 2 base longer than i do vs. a FFE?
I always just go for 2 base muta, defend with spine crawlers and tech to mutas, once you get map control with mutas and lings just expand all over the map and be ready to go for base trade.
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On April 21 2012 23:43 KimJongChill wrote:
ugh...thoughts on dealing with 2 base sentry/stalker/immortal all-in? It seems to hit early enough that I can't get a significant tech advantage and is cost effective enough to deal with infinite roaches :/
Scouting it is the important part. 2 gas protoss (2 in main, none at natural) is almost always gateway timing. 3 gas protoss is tricky, it can be gateway (heavy sentry), 1 SG 7 gate, 1 SG pressure --> third, blink, or robo. With your OL at his nat, if you see a third gas by 6-6:30 min I think (at least, that's what I go by, low masters Z) you should start your Lair before you start +1 roach attack. Reason being so you can respond with tech. Now comes overseer scouting. Count everything you see, number of gates, robo tech, etc. If you are lucky enough to see immortals in production, you know it's coming. Any sort of delayed attack with no blink, and no colossus is guaranteed sentry immortal.
I either immediately get infestor tech OR as of late, I've actually been rushing OV drop and going roach baneling (of course, I cancel OV drop is I see blink all in coming). I find that protosses on ladder are always expecting stephano style, and they just don't take a third at all and mass up a 2 base sentry immortal thing that roaches and lings simply cannot kill.
tldr - Roach/Infestor or Roach/Bane drop.
Roach hydra does not work, forcefields still destroy.
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On April 21 2012 23:43 KimJongChill wrote:
I either immediately get infestor tech OR as of late, I've actually been rushing OV drop and going roach baneling (of course, I cancel OV drop is I see blink all in coming). I find that protosses on ladder are always expecting stephano style, and they just don't take a third at all and mass up a 2 base sentry immortal thing that roaches and lings simply cannot kill.
tldr - Roach/Infestor or Roach/Bane drop.
Roach hydra does not work, forcefields still destroy.
This is what I've been noticing as well. Toss at my level (mid master) doesn't care about anything past the 12 minute mark when they attempt to kill you with 5 immortals and 10 sentries. I literally lost 2 maxed armies of roaches to this 110 food toss the other day when I was going stephano and got maxed by 12:00.
Basically I've kind of just abandoned that stephano max on roaches style unless I scout a fast third exp off like only 3 gates or something. Toss figured it out for the most part with lots of stargate play and this really hard to deal with immortal timing.
Losira goes bane drops a lot against immortal allins, it works pretty well for him.
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On April 21 2012 23:43 KimJongChill wrote:
ugh...thoughts on dealing with 2 base sentry/stalker/immortal all-in? It seems to hit early enough that I can't get a significant tech advantage and is cost effective enough to deal with infinite roaches :/
I would advise Roach/Bane with overlord drop. It's tough to get infestors or hydras out in significant numbers in time for the attack. If you scout with your first overseer when lair is done, you can time the ovy drop to finish before his attack. You could even probably find time to drop a single overlord with lings just as he's moving out to force him to warp a few zealots in his main.
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Hey guys. Mid-high gold Zerg trying to clean up my game a bit to make the jump to platinum and I had a question about ZvT.
What is the most effective way to stay competitive in economy when terran goes for a reactor hellion expand that is so common. Normally I wall with an evolution chamber, spine and queen with a spine behind the minerals of my natural. This usually stops me from losing too many drones, but it's a big investment and doesn't help me take a third until I get whatever lair tech I'm going for (festors or mutas). I've tried to watch pros defend it to get some tips but what works at their level doesn't work at mine. They usually only drop one spine at the entrance to their natural, but when I do with the hellions just run by and I lost a tonne of drones.
I'm hesitant to try to get a ling surround, and I don't want my main strategy to be just hoping he's not watching his hellions. Thanks for helping a noob.
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@Glitch I've been getting 3-4 roaches early on, allowing me to take a faster third, at the cost of delaying my Lair, instead of defending with static sim city. I find it works much better against hellion openings.
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EPT
