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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
#1 it is zvz, but I'd say the stephano style with later gas (2 gas at 6:00) is the standard zvp. If you go 14/14 zvz, you pull them of after 100 gas (speed) unless you go for 1 base banelings or an all-in of some sort.
#2 6:00 2 gas. 7:00 evo chamber, roach warren, lair, 3rd extractor. Get roach speed as soon as lair is done and attack when roach speed finishes (10:30). A detailed case study of stephano and DRGs build orders here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=322707 general info on 3 base zvp here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038
#3. Vs P: scout front with first lings, then Ol sacrifice at 7:00. Also, spot gas at natural with an ol.
Vs T: I personally drone scout at 14 do check for 11/11 proxy barracks, and try to to get into his base. Sack an ol at ~6:00 or so if he hasn't made any expansion attempt.
#4. Generally yes. But if you face a 4 gas protoss it can be a good idea.
#5. Depends on MU and a lot of factors. But generally zerg is very upgrade dependent, get 2 evo chambers and start upgrading as soon as you can.
#6. With good positioning with roach/corruptor and a flank when he moves out. Or with lots of mutas.
#7: Depends on MU. But generally don't get it until you need lair tech upgrades/units.
#8: About 1 per base to sustain production, but then you won't have any excess gas for tech/upgrades.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 24 2012 19:22 VoirDire wrote:#1 it is zvz, but I'd say the stephano style with later gas (2 gas at 6:00) is the standard zvp. If you go 14/14 zvz, you pull them of after 100 gas (speed) unless you go for 1 base banelings or an all-in of some sort. #2 6:00 2 gas. 7:00 evo chamber, roach warren, lair, 3rd extractor. Get roach speed as soon as lair is done and attack when roach speed finishes (10:30). A detailed case study of stephano and DRGs build orders here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=322707 general info on 3 base zvp here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038#3. Vs P: scout front with first lings, then Ol sacrifice at 7:00. Also, spot gas at natural with an ol. Vs T: I personally drone scout at 14 do check for 11/11 proxy barracks, and try to to get into his base. Sack an ol at ~6:00 or so if he hasn't made any expansion attempt. #4. Generally yes. But if you face a 4 gas protoss it can be a good idea. #5. Depends on MU and a lot of factors. But generally zerg is very upgrade dependent, get 2 evo chambers and start upgrading as soon as you can. #6. With good positioning with roach/corruptor and a flank when he moves out. Or with lots of mutas. #7: Depends on MU. But generally don't get it until you need lair tech upgrades/units. #8: About 1 per base to sustain production, but then you won't have any excess gas for tech/upgrades.
Thank you very much 
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To avoid a stupid rant, I'm just going to put it this way:
How do I deal with vortex if toss isn't dumb enough to let his mothership get NP'd, like on a map like shakuras where the mothership will never be in front of the army or in a bad spot.
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Well, I never attack with broodlords once mothership is out. I just take more my side of the map and spine crawl the fuck out of it once I have more expansions than P. Spoon-zerg, thorzain style.
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On April 24 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote:
To avoid a stupid rant, I'm just going to put it this way:
How do I deal with vortex if toss isn't dumb enough to let his mothership get NP'd, like on a map like shakuras where the mothership will never be in front of the army or in a bad spot.
Spread out your broods, when he vortexes half slowly pull back the other half while still attacking (like marine micro).
Try to fungal any archons that try to get in the vortex.
Odds are you'll still lose the battle unless you have better upgrades (assuming 200v200 army) but you can remax quicker with lower tier units to win the fight and possibly kill an expo or win outright.
Remember to spread your overseers as well, if they all get vortexed together with some of your army you basically lose.
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On April 24 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote:
To avoid a stupid rant, I'm just going to put it this way:
How do I deal with vortex if toss isn't dumb enough to let his mothership get NP'd, like on a map like shakuras where the mothership will never be in front of the army or in a bad spot.
NP High Templar and use it to feedback the mothership 
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I want to start working on my zerg mechanics, my question is are these openings ok for each mu:
-zvz 14pool14gas 19 hatch
-zvt hatch first (15 or so)
-zvp 11 pool 19 hatch to be safe
and also, is muta/ling/bling or ling/infestor stronger in zvt right now?
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On April 24 2012 23:27 zuRbeK wrote:
I want to start working on my zerg mechanics, my question is are these openings ok for each mu:
-zvz 14pool14gas 19 hatch
-zvt hatch first (15 or so)
-zvp 11 pool 19 hatch to be safe
and also, is muta/ling/bling or ling/infestor stronger in zvt right now?
zvz - 14g14p21h
zvt - 15h15p17g
zvp - 15p 16h 24h
Both muta.ling/bling and ling infestor is strong. Dont just do one blindly, change it up depending on what opposition does. No point going ling infestor if the terran goes mass blue flame.
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On April 24 2012 23:27 zuRbeK wrote:
I want to start working on my zerg mechanics, my question is are these openings ok for each mu:
-zvz 14pool14gas 19 hatch
-zvt hatch first (15 or so)
-zvp 11 pool 19 hatch to be safe
and also, is muta/ling/bling or ling/infestor stronger in zvt right now?
ZvZ: 14 gas 14 pool 15 hatch
ZvT: 15 hatch 15 pool 16 gas
ZvP: 15 pool 15 hatch (gas varies on their opening)
Neither is 'stronger', but they do both have advantages and disadvantages.
*muta ling bling
You have the option to be hyper aggressive with mutas and you can more easily handle drops. You can also use baneling mines. However, you will have a weaker army to deal with death balls or large army pushes. You are also hurt more by a lack of creep spread, not that it doesn't hurt ling/infestor, but banes are far more reliant on creep. Some disadvantages are that it is very easy to lose your banes if you don't split or mutas if you engage badly. However you can pick off medivacs and siege tanks easily. Overall this meta is a bit in the past and spines/spores are more standard to deal with drops.
*ling infestor
You can force engagements much easier with ling infestor than muta ling bane. You also have the option to be more aggressive with ling runbys and infestors in their bases, as you focus more on upgrades. Your army is more reliant on getting ling surrounds and landing strong fungals. You can use infested terran to absorb initial siege blasts.
Overall there isn't one correct answer. You should experiment with both styles and choose what feels right for you.
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On April 22 2012 20:18 Macpo wrote:
hi guys!
I need your help in Z v Z: I am wondering how to play 3 base roaches vs 2 base mutas. Basically what I am doing is opening hatch first, and when I have lingspeed (i.e. quite late, cause I take gas only when I see my opponent expanding); make a bunch of lings while expanding (so quite early). Then I drone, tech to lair, with double upgrades and make roaches (timings depending on what I see).
Now my problem is that when my opponent goes mutas, I am having hard time defending. what I do is make a bunch of spores (like 3 or 4 at each base), while droning, teching to infestors, and trying to deny his expands, with roaches and/or lings. and making a big push later
Now here are my few questions:
- What are the lair timings and gas and upgrade timings when going for a quick third like that? I tend to make lair when I can, after I bought speed, baneling nest and a couple of banelings; while taking my 2nd 3rd and 4th gas when I am oversaturated with drones on two mineral lines. It is usually at the same time that my third is building up. But I feel I could delay that for higher drone count maybe. (although at that stage of the game, I am not sure whether he is going for roach or muta based play, and I feel if I play against roaches, it is necessary to get a slightly quicker lair/ tech /gas.
- How fast should I try to saturate my third with drones, as opposed to make it safe with spores/roaches mix? for defense, would you recommend like 2 spores at each base, and then queens added; or more spores and less queens?
- how should i attack? straight all in before his mutas? harass with lings? later big push? Sometimes I feel i have to waste my roaches in an attack in order to get the time for spores... should I absolutely avoid that? I also feel that lings runbys are nice, but I am not sure either... The thing is : at what cost should I try to deny his third or his fourth?
- what should be my unit composition? should I necessarily aim at some queen/infestor/roach mix? Cause I find queens to be very very slow, so a bit annoying for a push. Also, how does that depends on whether he sticks to mutas or transition out to some roach based play?
Thanks a lot guys!
Sorry guys! I am sure someone would love answering that
Even partial answers are welcome:D
Thanks again!
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On April 24 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote:
To avoid a stupid rant, I'm just going to put it this way:
How do I deal with vortex if toss isn't dumb enough to let his mothership get NP'd, like on a map like shakuras where the mothership will never be in front of the army or in a bad spot.
You don't.
Don't ever let Shakuras become split map. Ever. You literally cannot win. Toss will just casually snipe your hatcheries at your 5/6/7/8th bases all game long because of how awkwardly positioned they are. You would need SO many spines to avoid them being sniped that by the time you set all that up, Toss will have taken every base on his side of the map as well. On even econ, you cannot beat late game Toss. With 30+ gateways, multiple robos, mothership, multiple SGs? You just die.
If you're going to engage a mothership army, you better be up 2-3 bases, and relentlessly attack from that point onward. Split broods as best as possible, focus mothership with corruptors from around the side after he vortexes, and fungal as much as possible. I don't hotkey my broods because when I pull them back, they clump while moving back, which lets them eat a second vortex really hard.
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On April 24 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote:
To avoid a stupid rant, I'm just going to put it this way:
How do I deal with vortex if toss isn't dumb enough to let his mothership get NP'd, like on a map like shakuras where the mothership will never be in front of the army or in a bad spot.
I hate late game shakuras too cause its split map and you can't attack into protoss (obviously).
Since your whole army is air (at this point you should be pure corruptor/infestor/brood), you could run your infestors up to the top or bottom base with the rest of your army and try to siege push his main or something....
I don't know, basically anything except attack directly into him. It's also good to have a bunch of banelings rolling around with your lategame army as the anti-toilet unit.
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Only high diamond here scila, but...
On April 24 2012 18:40 Scila wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Hi Zerg players! I'm a high Masters Terran player who recently decided to switch to Zerg. I've played around a bit in customs and have done a few ladder games and I have a lot of stuff to ask!
First off: is 14 gas/14 pool the standard ZvZ and ZvP build? Do I pull off gas at 100? When do I put them back on? Around what supply should I expand? 14 hatch 13 pool versus Terran?
#2: If I see Protoss forge fast expand, what is the basic build order for the fast third into mass roach?
#3: What are the most important times to scout versus Terran and Protoss? Like what in-game time should I scout?
#4: Is it a bad idea to blindly get spore crawlers at every hatch if you're in the dark?
#5: Ground Upgrades. When do you get them?
#6: How do you deal with Colossus before Broodlords? Just a lot of roaches and fungals?
#7: When do you typically go for Lair?
#8: And finally, how many gases do you need for roaches? 2ish?
Sorry for the long post I'm a complete Zerg noob.
1) ZvZ: There's not one real standard opening. There's a bit of a circle of which opening has an advantage over which other opening. I think 14/14 is probably the easiest to learn the matchup with.
ZvP: Most toss open FFE, so going 14 pool / 16 hatch into gasless 3 hatch is the standard. See the excellent guides by Belial and TangSC (Stephano style roaches) to get an idea how this goes. Additionally there is decaf's 3 base roach ling muta guide, but that's a little out of fashion right now (still works very well at my level!)
Vs. Terran you can play greedier than that opening unless you scout a very aggressive 2 racks. I like 15 hatch / 16 pool personally, but it's mostly a matter of preference. I *think* if you go 14 hatch 13 pool that you get 3 idle larva, which means you lose some larva in the early game.
2) The most detailed guide onthis is probably this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324733 (TangSC's). You can actually max out close to 11 minutes if you're stephano.
3) I suck vs. Terran, so no comment there. I find that scout timings are difficult vs. terran and dynamic, you can't just say "scout at x time every game" because it depends on how he opened etc.
Vs. FFE Protoss: His tech will usually go down around ~7-7:30. If you want to sacrifice some overlords, that's the time. According to people better than me, the best scouting tools are checking the gas timings at the natural, and checking where the toss spends chronoboost at the front. I suck on pinning protoss on builds, so I'll just leave it at that.
Vs. Gateway toss: If his expansion isn't down by 6:00, it's probably a 1 base play or dt's or something. Send an overlord then. a ~6:00 expo means 3 gate FE, and I think 1 gate FE is ~5:00 but I haven't seen that in a while.
4) It's not terrible, but you should of course never try to be totally in the dark. It'll put you a little behind if it's not air/cloak, but prevent you from losing the game outright to silly things. It's probably not a terrible idea while learning the basics of the race.
5) Pretty broad and vague question, and depends on playstyle and matchup.
6) If you're in the process of teching to broods, a handful of corruptors (number depending on his collosus count) are nice. It's VERY easy to overbuild corruptors, kinda like Terrans overbuilding vikings vs. collosi. The advantage is if you're teching anyway, the corruptors will be useful later.
7) Again, pretty broad and vague. Do you have a more specific question?
8) How many bases? For example, on 3 base vs. toss FFE you'll want 4 gas, but the timings are pretty critical.
GL HF! :D
Edited to add: vs. protoss going heavy collosus, I've had great success with muta play with the intention of forcing a base race.
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Couple of questions!
In ZvZ, I've been doing fine with mutas but I recently had a game where my opponent just sent a ton of roaches my way while my mutas were harassing. He had gone for a pretty quick 3rd while I went 2hatch muta. Long story short I lost 2 hatcheries and a lot of tech and he came out ahead (I sent my mutas back to defend). It really shook me up to be honest, because I can't imagine what I'm supposed to do to hold that without losing almost everything. Are mutas just not as viable as I thought at first or am I just awful?
In ZvP, how do i react to a non-FFE build? Every now and then my protoss opponent doesn't FFE and I feel lost. Things like 1gate expo etc. I've been trying to 3hatch regardless but always end up losing. Should I just 2base against every non-FFE opening or is 3hatch still viable somehow?
Thanks!
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On April 25 2012 05:08 Starshaped wrote:
In ZvP, how do i react to a non-FFE build? Every now and then my protoss opponent doesn't FFE and I feel lost. Things like 1gate expo etc. I've been trying to 3hatch regardless but always end up losing. Should I just 2base against every non-FFE opening or is 3hatch still viable somehow?
Thanks!
you can still 3 hatch if you want. it wont yield as much of a benefit as it wil lagainst FFE but i think you are i na better spot htan just staying on 2 base still.
he is going to have more units early right? just expect him to have a couple zealots and a stalker to harass, or liek a 6-7 sentry push. that doesnt necessarily mean you need to rush for roaches!
also if you cant bring the third hatchery through, just cancel/abandon it. no big deal
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On April 25 2012 05:08 Starshaped wrote:
Couple of questions!
In ZvZ, I've been doing fine with mutas but I recently had a game where my opponent just sent a ton of roaches my way while my mutas were harassing. He had gone for a pretty quick 3rd while I went 2hatch muta. Long story short I lost 2 hatcheries and a lot of tech and he came out ahead (I sent my mutas back to defend). It really shook me up to be honest, because I can't imagine what I'm supposed to do to hold that without losing almost everything. Are mutas just not as viable as I thought at first or am I just awful?
In ZvP, how do i react to a non-FFE build? Every now and then my protoss opponent doesn't FFE and I feel lost. Things like 1gate expo etc. I've been trying to 3hatch regardless but always end up losing. Should I just 2base against every non-FFE opening or is 3hatch still viable somehow?
Thanks! You're supposed to spot the roaches as soon as they move out, and attack them the whole way with mutas, while adding more spines back home. You're already supposed to have 3+ spines anyway. Then you've basically won the game by taking the whole map and going roach/infestors. Usually he'll build a ton of queens/spores at that point, so getting more mutas is pointless. Use them to kill Ovies and prevent new bases.
As for non-FFE builds, as soon as you spot a gate first opening, take your gas. Get speed, then a quick roach warren if you see a forge researching +1 (usually with chronoboost). I like to go for mutas from there, but feel free to experiment. You have to check for his expansion timing as well. Make sure he doesn't cancel it; snipe probes and proxy pylons, etc.
Sac an OV around 5:00 to see if he's 4-5 gating you if he hasn't expanded yet. If he has expanded, make that around 7:00.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 25 2012 05:01 LazinCajun wrote:Only high diamond here scila, but... Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 18:40 Scila wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Hi Zerg players! I'm a high Masters Terran player who recently decided to switch to Zerg. I've played around a bit in customs and have done a few ladder games and I have a lot of stuff to ask!
First off: is 14 gas/14 pool the standard ZvZ and ZvP build? Do I pull off gas at 100? When do I put them back on? Around what supply should I expand? 14 hatch 13 pool versus Terran?
#2: If I see Protoss forge fast expand, what is the basic build order for the fast third into mass roach?
#3: What are the most important times to scout versus Terran and Protoss? Like what in-game time should I scout?
#4: Is it a bad idea to blindly get spore crawlers at every hatch if you're in the dark?
#5: Ground Upgrades. When do you get them?
#6: How do you deal with Colossus before Broodlords? Just a lot of roaches and fungals?
#7: When do you typically go for Lair?
#8: And finally, how many gases do you need for roaches? 2ish?
Sorry for the long post I'm a complete Zerg noob.
1) ZvZ: There's not one real standard opening. There's a bit of a circle of which opening has an advantage over which other opening. I think 14/14 is probably the easiest to learn the matchup with. ZvP: Most toss open FFE, so going 14 pool / 16 hatch into gasless 3 hatch is the standard. See the excellent guides by Belial and TangSC (Stephano style roaches) to get an idea how this goes. Additionally there is decaf's 3 base roach ling muta guide, but that's a little out of fashion right now (still works very well at my level!) Vs. Terran you can play greedier than that opening unless you scout a very aggressive 2 racks. I like 15 hatch / 16 pool personally, but it's mostly a matter of preference. I *think* if you go 14 hatch 13 pool that you get 3 idle larva, which means you lose some larva in the early game. 2) The most detailed guide onthis is probably this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324733 (TangSC's). You can actually max out close to 11 minutes if you're stephano. 3) I suck vs. Terran, so no comment there. I find that scout timings are difficult vs. terran and dynamic, you can't just say "scout at x time every game" because it depends on how he opened etc. Vs. FFE Protoss: His tech will usually go down around ~7-7:30. If you want to sacrifice some overlords, that's the time. According to people better than me, the best scouting tools are checking the gas timings at the natural, and checking where the toss spends chronoboost at the front. I suck on pinning protoss on builds, so I'll just leave it at that. Vs. Gateway toss: If his expansion isn't down by 6:00, it's probably a 1 base play or dt's or something. Send an overlord then. a ~6:00 expo means 3 gate FE, and I think 1 gate FE is ~5:00 but I haven't seen that in a while. 4) It's not terrible, but you should of course never try to be totally in the dark. It'll put you a little behind if it's not air/cloak, but prevent you from losing the game outright to silly things. It's probably not a terrible idea while learning the basics of the race. 5) Pretty broad and vague question, and depends on playstyle and matchup. 6) If you're in the process of teching to broods, a handful of corruptors (number depending on his collosus count) are nice. It's VERY easy to overbuild corruptors, kinda like Terrans overbuilding vikings vs. collosi. The advantage is if you're teching anyway, the corruptors will be useful later. 7) Again, pretty broad and vague. Do you have a more specific question? 8) How many bases? For example, on 3 base vs. toss FFE you'll want 4 gas, but the timings are pretty critical. GL HF! :D Edited to add: vs. protoss going heavy collosus, I've had great success with muta play with the intention of forcing a base race.
thanks
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So just in general, regarding what I should be aiming for:
ZvZ:
If I open 14/14 [is it Pool first, or Gas first?], and the guy cheeses, you're fairly safe. So, a late-ish Drone scout [at what pop?] is OK, you just need to see if it's Hatch first or something, right?
So I open 14/14 and the guy does Hatch first. Do I NEED to do some damage, whether through Ling speed, Bling play, or what? Or am I relatively OK to just expo and Bling behind it?
Regarding the same opener, when is it safe to get Roaches? And if I scout fast Muta, what is the most efficient way to deal with it? Should I Just make a wave of units and see what I can do?
And if the guy is doing the same thing I plan on doing [say Roach/Infestor], is there ever a time I should be attacking first? Or, do I play greedy and just D a third?
Overall, I'm hesitant to do a 15 Hatch opener because I'm super paranoid against very early Pool/Speedling play, and that tends to put me on tilt rather than just playing from behind with a safer 14/14.
ZvT:
I usually just open with 15/17, and then deal with the Hellions normally. Do I double gas late just for Roaches/Upgrades or should I single gas early to get speed? When does my third Queen start in production? What about Blings?
What do I do if I see a 1 Rax expand or a CC first? Is it possible to take a third early from that? So then, I guess I need speed and a handful of Roaches after that, right?
When do I take my third? Do I do it after Lair tech is done (whether Muta/Infestor)? What I've been doing is taking a third right after I start Lair, is that way too early? I seem to never have the ability to hold it, as the push comes right as my tech gets finished. What about a macro Hatch?
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On April 25 2012 10:38 Supah wrote:
So just in general, regarding what I should be aiming for:
ZvZ:
If I open 14/14 [is it Pool first, or Gas first?], and the guy cheeses, you're fairly safe. So, a late-ish Drone scout [at what pop?] is OK, you just need to see if it's Hatch first or something, right?
So I open 14/14 and the guy does Hatch first. Do I NEED to do some damage, whether through Ling speed, Bling play, or what? Or am I relatively OK to just expo and Bling behind it?
Regarding the same opener, when is it safe to get Roaches? And if I scout fast Muta, what is the most efficient way to deal with it? Should I Just make a wave of units and see what I can do?
And if the guy is doing the same thing I plan on doing [say Roach/Infestor], is there ever a time I should be attacking first? Or, do I play greedy and just D a third?
Overall, I'm hesitant to do a 15 Hatch opener because I'm super paranoid against very early Pool/Speedling play, and that tends to put me on tilt rather than just playing from behind with a safer 14/14.
ZvT:
I usually just open with 15/17, and then deal with the Hellions normally. Do I double gas late just for Roaches/Upgrades or should I single gas early to get speed? When does my third Queen start in production? What about Blings?
What do I do if I see a 1 Rax expand or a CC first? Is it possible to take a third early from that? So then, I guess I need speed and a handful of Roaches after that, right?
When do I take my third? Do I do it after Lair tech is done (whether Muta/Infestor)? What I've been doing is taking a third right after I start Lair, is that way too early? I seem to never have the ability to hold it, as the push comes right as my tech gets finished. What about a macro Hatch?
14/14 is gas/pool. If you expand behind it without pressuring you are technically behind, if both of you play perfectly.
It's safe to get roaches when you can defend attacks because you have the defenders advantage (queen(s) + spine(s)).
If you scout fast muta, you can try to hit a timing before the mutas to kill him (has no real follow-up) or you can macro up harder than him and make extra queens/spores and tech to infestors.
Taking double gas late or single gas early-ish is a stylistic choice. I myself prefer the single gas as it gets me a speed a bit quicker, making me more comfortable to drone up.
If you see a 1rax expand the normal response is to take a relatively early third, you can always do some kind of all-in though, roach-bane is by far the best.
Third hatch before lair ZvT is done alot and is definitely holdable, but you need to be certain that he's expanded.
Macro hatches instead of thirds are taken if you're being contained by hellions (or for some reason he has siege tanks in front of your nat, in which case odds are you are dead). You don't need the macro hatch if you're teching hard, since you cannot afford to produce out of it anyway.
Hope I answered everything, if I missed something let me know.
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How do you guys respond to a quick third from toss in zvp? For instance, I played a game on daybreak where toss got a third off of just 1 gate and a robo and walled off the third entrance with 4 gateways and a handful of cannons. Because of the travel distance, my roach army never seemed to be very strong, and toss went for an immortal and sentry heavy composition, allowing him to just forcefield away everything....
So would mutas be a good response to fast third? I heard that somewhere I think.
If I opted to stay roaches, then how would I start working towards a hive transition? I was thinking of gradually adding infestors while attempting to 'free' up supply with multi-pronged roach attacks.
I suppose my main issue is that letting a toss get a fast third is practically giving the game away, but it's so frustrating when they can be so greedy despite an overwhelming supply disparity x.x
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EPT
