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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
On April 12 2012 06:14 doss wrote: Very much dependent on your build, and what your opponent is going. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 Has all the drone count/timing information you need when going for 3base no gas. uuuuuu, thank you! cool thread! | ||
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nonsequitur
384 Posts
I would prefer not going Mutas myself as it seems to be really fragile to me. A misstep and you're behind on Mutas and it's basically gg. Thanks! Edit: If anyone can link replays of high level games with roach/infestor vs mutas that would be fantastic. | ||
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Colourz
England27 Posts
I find that I tend to get behind in econ due to the number of lings I have to produce to deal with the zealots, their tech and warpgate timings are also a lot quicker as a result. My question is how to accomodate this style into my build. I don't currently drone scout instead relying on overlords and the first few lings. I find that by the time it is scouted it i, in most cases, too late to throw down a gas to punish this with roaches, am I correct? Should I delay the third hatch to deal with any zealots? I feel this puts me further behind in eco against the nexus first. tl;dr How to alter my gasless 3 hatch in zvp when scouting a forgeless nexus into gateways | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On April 12 2012 12:12 nonsequitur wrote: I've been getting really frustrated with ZvZ. I have absolutely no idea what to do. I'm hoping for someone to give me some pointers on the matchup. For example: How do I play vs Mutas with Roach/Infestor? If I go Hydras I get eventually rolled over with Ling/Bling/Muta. If I go infestors, I'm pretty much contained and can't take my third until I get a seizable amount of infestors out, by which time the Muta player would already have a saturated 3rd and perhaps a 4th. I would prefer not going Mutas myself as it seems to be really fragile to me. A misstep and you're behind on Mutas and it's basically gg. Thanks! Edit: If anyone can link replays of high level games with roach/infestor vs mutas that would be fantastic. Never get hydras to 'counter' mutas. You'll get owned. He just gets bane speed to 'counter' the hydras, and owns you. Hydras are too slow and deal too little damage to make up for it, especially for their cost. And you NEED infestors to get map control/beat ling/bane/muta. So getting roach/hydra/infestor on 2 base, just kills your gas. Going roach/infestor is a bit more affordable, and then using the excess minerals for queens as your AA. To play against mutas: - If he goes super fast mutas, like 30 supply, I think the 'best' choice is go normal 50-60 supply lair and go mutas yourself into a macro game with a huge lead (99% of the time, you have 3x the econ, as long as you saw what he was doing and made 4 queens or spores when his spire finished, you win, because it's soooo all-in, and when your spire pops, you have so strong econ that you pop 2x mutas instantly, and push back and win there and then). But another really good choice is just 2 base speedroach all-in, he'll die, he can't compete economically, and it takes a TON of spines to hold that, that he really needs ling+spine, and that just won't happen with 25 drones... - If he goes normal muta, like 50-60 lair, just go infestor to 'counter' his muta play. He will take the faster third and do harss damage like killing overlords, but you will be ahead in tech (only way to combat roach/infestor, is roach/infestor, so he'll have to transition out unless he wants to risk all-inning with a ling/muta timing when you try to set up third and have no roaches). Just get 6 queens, maybe a spore or two like by the gas geysers so he doesn't snipe them obnoixiously, spread creep to third, and when infestors pop, take third. Don't freak out about mutas. Just consider it like stargate play, as long as you don't overreact with spores and queens, or underreact with spores/queens, you will come out ahead because you will just have a ton of infestors while he just starts his infestation pit. You'll have quite a deadly timing too, you can just stay on 2 base and push with mass queen/roach/infestor (he'll have to transition quickly to roach/infestor and not drone his third up hard, or he'll have to base trade with ling/muta). You'll be ahead in tech, meaning your mass roach/infestor push will come quicker, and your BL tech can come quicker. Hey Zergs recently I have been playing a number of protoss on ladder who will fe without the forge. There seem to be a few variations, mostly it seems nexus first into gateway and chrono out 3 or so zealots to pressure my third hatch (they probe scouted me going gasless). They can also go nexus first into 2 gateway chrone or 1 gate -> nexus -> cyber I find that I tend to get behind in econ due to the number of lings I have to produce to deal with the zealots, their tech and warpgate timings are also a lot quicker as a result. My question is how to accomodate this style into my build. I don't currently drone scout instead relying on overlords and the first few lings. I find that by the time it is scouted it i, in most cases, too late to throw down a gas to punish this with roaches, am I correct? Should I delay the third hatch to deal with any zealots? I feel this puts me further behind in eco against the nexus first. tl;dr How to alter my gasless 3 hatch in zvp when scouting a forgeless nexus into gateways Roach/ling all-in? I can't see them holding it without stalkers, sentries, or cannons... But if you go fast third, well, you should see the 3 zealots moving out. Just make 18 lings. Provide a replay though? | ||
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Reki
Philippines89 Posts
Also, when are ultras ever a good idea in mirror. Are they some sort of counter against roach infestors? Should I bother with them or just stick to infestor bl? Thanks | ||
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Colourz
England27 Posts
On April 12 2012 14:00 Belial88 wrote: Roach/ling all-in? I can't see them holding it without stalkers, sentries, or cannons... But if you go fast third, well, you should see the 3 zealots moving out. Just make 18 lings. Provide a replay though? I went looking through my recent replays but couldn't find an appropriate example unfortunately. It seems that after gateway and cyber core they then put down a forge so the one time I did try roach ling they (barely admittedly) got cannons down and had stalkers being chrono'd out. If I make the 18 lings to deal with 3-4 zealots am I not behind in eco seeing as they got their nexus first up? | ||
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coL.hendralisk
Zimbabwe1756 Posts
On April 11 2012 05:47 Amaterasu1234 wrote: http://drop.sc/157591 The above game is me vs some stupid 2 base all-in that I can't beat. I feel my opening is god awful, but I'm still trying to get the 8 minute opener down, so bear with me there. I noticed my gas was REALLY, REALLY high and I didn't have a use for it, so that definitely hurt my mineral income. ----------------------- http://drop.sc/157600 vs same guy as the above replay, I get my opener down better and end up with ~53 drones at 8 minutes. Now, in this game, I go for +1 armor and then start making units nonstop. The first time we engage, I'm up about 20 supply, get a full surround on two immorals, some sentries, and irrelevant tanky units, and my armor evaporates. I think this was partly due to my late roach speed, but, I doubt that would have made much of a difference. I'm really, really needing help in ZvP. All I do is lose, lose, lose no matter what...:'( MindwaveRush is a known map hacker | ||
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krelian
48 Posts
http://drop.sc/158507 | ||
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tehcaekftw
Denmark138 Posts
I've watched some games where it was used but i still cant see how certain things should be done with this build; Firstly, should i go for just lings/infestors OR add in banelings aswell? 9-10min timing pushes, if i have to have infestors by that time would be pretty early lair aswell as a lot of early gas, or should i just get banelings for that time like standard lings/banelings? I can see how infestors should be used in combat and such, but just cant figure out early game with it, it seems that any well planned attack will outright kill me. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On April 12 2012 12:12 Colourz wrote: Hey Zergs recently I have been playing a number of protoss on ladder who will fe without the forge. There seem to be a few variations, mostly it seems nexus first into gateway and chrono out 3 or so zealots to pressure my third hatch (they probe scouted me going gasless). They can also go nexus first into 2 gateway chrone or 1 gate -> nexus -> cyber I find that I tend to get behind in econ due to the number of lings I have to produce to deal with the zealots, their tech and warpgate timings are also a lot quicker as a result. My question is how to accomodate this style into my build. I don't currently drone scout instead relying on overlords and the first few lings. I find that by the time it is scouted it i, in most cases, too late to throw down a gas to punish this with roaches, am I correct? Should I delay the third hatch to deal with any zealots? I feel this puts me further behind in eco against the nexus first. tl;dr How to alter my gasless 3 hatch in zvp when scouting a forgeless nexus into gateways I think you answered your own question. I'm seeing more and more players drone scout to see if there's a forge fe or simply nexus / gate / whatever that is not forge first, and then react accordingly. In your case i'd have simply made lings non stop with speed and obviously sacrifice my eco because he doesn't have forge. I'm still not sure what's the best answer either yet since i'm not facing them a lot. What you need to know is that there won't be any fast upgrades and that's really good for your lings against zealots. | ||
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zuRbeK
Poland27 Posts
On April 11 2012 16:54 zuRbeK wrote: If any of you have seen the last of Day9's daily newbie tuesday, which players would you advice me to steal the builds from & analyze them for each of the matchups? @down : have you even seen this daily? bump yo. anyone? | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
So I guess what I'm asking is: a) Is it okay to throw down a safety warren (I guess I'd put it down around 26 supply when I'd normally make my third queen)? b) What do you think is the best response to 1 rax fe (which normally seems to transition into mech). Is a fast baneling bust a good idea since 1 rax fe is kinda greedy? c) How do you read terran builds when they have map control with hellions? I feel like there are so many things they can do like double reactor, blue flame, banshee, marine scv all-in, hellion marine drop....I suppose the best indicator is a delayed expo, but even then it's so frustrating to basically be playing blind until 44 drones and lair tech and hoping they don't do an early timing. | ||
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Dalguno
United States2446 Posts
On April 13 2012 01:10 KimJongChill wrote: I've died several times to what looks like a reactor hellion expo but is actually mass blue flame into mech. Even if I don't lose any drones I'm still behind because I feel like you need to take a fast third against mech to get a better economy for broods later on... So I guess what I'm asking is: a) Is it okay to throw down a safety warren (I guess I'd put it down around 26 supply when I'd normally make my third queen)? b) What do you think is the best response to 1 rax fe (which normally seems to transition into mech). Is a fast baneling bust a good idea since 1 rax fe is kinda greedy? c) How do you read terran builds when they have map control with hellions? I feel like there are so many things they can do like double reactor, blue flame, banshee, marine scv all-in, hellion marine drop....I suppose the best indicator is a delayed expo, but even then it's so frustrating to basically be playing blind until 44 drones and lair tech and hoping they don't do an early timing. a) That is generally a bit early for a RW. Go ahead and hold off for a bit, off the top of my head 40 supply sounds better because you can usually hold with a couple of spines/3 queens for a good amount of time until they have more hellions. b) If they're walling with barracks, your safest bet is just to macro with them. If you want to end the game early you can always go for a baneling bust all in, but it's definitely hit and miss as far as timings go, and like I said, if they have a barracks wall off it's gonna make it a lot more difficult. If they are meching, though, obviously they won't have a barracks wall. c) My general rule of thumb is if they make 6 or more hellions, throw down a roach warren. Send that overlord in as well and see if you can see more than one factory, or sometimes even naked barracks will tell you he's meching. I favor a faster third against mech so you have the gas income to get drop/early Hive or whatever else you may want to go for. General scouting: Fast naked starport is a hellion drop, naked barracks or multiple factories is mech, 3 barracks and a factory is marine/tank. Always have a ling right outside of their base to see what their composition is if you're still in the dark. Marine/scv all-in can be nearly impossible to scout if they do a good job of denying your overlords. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
:/ O...k... Nonetheless, the fact that I can't beat that stupid immortal/sentry/stalker timing is still annoying me. Yesterday I practiced against it 8 times in a row and beat it once. Shall I post those replays instead? ------------------------- On April 13 2012 01:21 Dalguno wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 13 2012 01:10 KimJongChill wrote: I've died several times to what looks like a reactor hellion expo but is actually mass blue flame into mech. Even if I don't lose any drones I'm still behind because I feel like you need to take a fast third against mech to get a better economy for broods later on... So I guess what I'm asking is: a) Is it okay to throw down a safety warren (I guess I'd put it down around 26 supply when I'd normally make my third queen)? b) What do you think is the best response to 1 rax fe (which normally seems to transition into mech). Is a fast baneling bust a good idea since 1 rax fe is kinda greedy? c) How do you read terran builds when they have map control with hellions? I feel like there are so many things they can do like double reactor, blue flame, banshee, marine scv all-in, hellion marine drop....I suppose the best indicator is a delayed expo, but even then it's so frustrating to basically be playing blind until 44 drones and lair tech and hoping they don't do an early timing. a) That is generally a bit early for a RW. Go ahead and hold off for a bit, off the top of my head 40 supply sounds better because you can usually hold with a couple of spines/3 queens for a good amount of time until they have more hellions. b) If they're walling with barracks, your safest bet is just to macro with them. If you want to end the game early you can always go for a baneling bust all in, but it's definitely hit and miss as far as timings go, and like I said, if they have a barracks wall off it's gonna make it a lot more difficult. If they are meching, though, obviously they won't have a barracks wall. c) My general rule of thumb is if they make 6 or more hellions, throw down a roach warren. Send that overlord in as well and see if you can see more than one factory, or sometimes even naked barracks will tell you he's meching. I favor a faster third against mech so you have the gas income to get drop/early Hive or whatever else you may want to go for. General scouting: Fast naked starport is a hellion drop, naked barracks or multiple factories is mech, 3 barracks and a factory is marine/tank. Always have a ling right outside of their base to see what their composition is if you're still in the dark. Marine/scv all-in can be nearly impossible to scout if they do a good job of denying your overlords. I often make 4 lings and spread them around the map. 2 at the towers, 1 at his third, and 1 checks the front of his base. If I see hellions, usually one at the closest tower dies, and I run the other away somewhere else. Then, when his hellions are sitting at my door "denying" scouting, I just move at least one back to the tower. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On April 13 2012 01:21 Dalguno wrote: a) That is generally a bit early for a RW. Go ahead and hold off for a bit, off the top of my head 40 supply sounds better because you can usually hold with a couple of spines/3 queens for a good amount of time until they have more hellions. b) If they're walling with barracks, your safest bet is just to macro with them. If you want to end the game early you can always go for a baneling bust all in, but it's definitely hit and miss as far as timings go, and like I said, if they have a barracks wall off it's gonna make it a lot more difficult. If they are meching, though, obviously they won't have a barracks wall. c) My general rule of thumb is if they make 6 or more hellions, throw down a roach warren. Send that overlord in as well and see if you can see more than one factory, or sometimes even naked barracks will tell you he's meching. I favor a faster third against mech so you have the gas income to get drop/early Hive or whatever else you may want to go for. General scouting: Fast naked starport is a hellion drop, naked barracks or multiple factories is mech, 3 barracks and a factory is marine/tank. Always have a ling right outside of their base to see what their composition is if you're still in the dark. Marine/scv all-in can be nearly impossible to scout if they do a good job of denying your overlords. Thanks for the advice, I suppose the general scouting stuff is more or less obvious, I guess I need to think a bit harder and try to reformulate what I mean at a later time... And yeah marine scv all-in is brutal, I played a terran who spread marines to all corners, made a bunker in front but no cc, and even built a gas at natural (although I couldn't even scout it on metropolis since there's no useful dead space bhind the natural). Only reason I held it was because I was doing a roach-ling all-in :D Do any of you fellows happen to know a build order (or really just general outline) for the roach baneling bust that I believe stephano did at ipl4? He seems to take a third while doing the attack. | ||
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Effay
United States153 Posts
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On April 13 2012 05:23 Effay wrote: Wtf do you do against a protoss that goes two stargate and just pumps voidrays until he has 8 or 10 or so, and then attacks and overwhelms your defenses with pure dps? I scouted the 2 stargate by seeing 4 gas and no gateways in main, so i was 99% sure he was going 2 stargate but didnt' expect him to do that. Make mutas and lol at him. User was warned for this post | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
As Saracen's note in the OP states, "If you don't know what you're talking about, PLEASE refrain from giving advice." Mutas don't come out in time to defend a 2 stargate build off of an FFE in a normal ffe vs 3hatch scenario. Not to mention the fashion in which you presented this advice is really really poor with 0 analysis or process. As for the question, if you scout a fast 4gas and a delayed +1, 2 stargate is probably the most likely build. Of course you should always try to get an overlord in and find out for certain, though. Once you suspect/know it's 2 stargate, you want to connect your bases with creep immediately, take the rest of your gasses, go to lair, and start additional queens immediately, as well as 2 spores per base. If he hits before your lair tech, you will be able to hold with queen/spores. Say he goes into your main: Bring all your queens into main, move two spores from your natural into your main, and start 2 more at your natural. This will make 4 spores in your main, and a handful of queens, making his engagements a complete waste. Once lair finishes, If he hasn't lost the void rays, start a hydra den and an infestation pit. Make a small number of hydras to deflect any phoenix/void ray harassment, and move to infestors so you can freeze and kill the air units. Ideally, you will have a bead on what the protoss is doing as a follow up. If they're taking a third, if you haven't taken too much damage you should be able to deny it with sheer number of units. If they're going colossus, make 4-5 infestors, take additional bases and go spire. If they're going 2base gateway allin, spam roach/hydra/ling. I guess this is pretty specific, and their are other options such as just turtling with spore/queen and going spire, but I feel that option is more vulnerable, and the method I outlined is more flexible and solid. | ||
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Automata
393 Posts
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
Here's the replay in question. http://drop.sc/158809 Me vs random toss on metalopolis, tournament play. He double blocks my hatcheries which delays his nexus a shit ton, npnp. I get my hatcheries out, get all my shit running, etc etc.... However huge mistake on my part I think I forgot my roach warren until about 9-10 minutes in the game. I literally read him like an open book, I see his gates+immortals and then I re-scout to see his extra 3 gates going down so it's a full 7 gate allin. Even though I forget my roach warren I get it up and get to 180 food by the time he attacks to his ~120. I delay him with a counterattack that he has to come back to deal with, and I don't lose more than 5 lings in the process. Then he gets to my natural and lololol a moves my army gg. I'm guessing the reason I couldn't hold this bs is that I have no larva at the time. At the end of the game I'm massing like 1.4k mins and 700 gas, but i have no fcking larva to make any more units. Should I have made another hatch or did I just fuck up and panic and not make units? I wanted my army to more ling than roach (roaches obviously useless vs immortal), so I'm getting melee upgrades. If this is the correct path to go down, should I be getting these ups or should i get ranged for hydra? Thanks. | ||
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