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tehcaekftw
Denmark138 Posts
I was told lair around 7 mins, then go up to 4 gasses, grab a 3rd at around 8:30 or so and get that quickly saturated, and simply defend with quick infestors and lings. Though even then, i feel that 9min pushes would be pretty lethal, i wouldnt have many infestors. I just dont really know how to infestor/ling, i was told by a guy but it still seems quite confusing for me. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On April 14 2012 04:25 tehcaekftw wrote: Still need some help playing ling/infestor vs T. Just a couple of questions/timings and stuff; I was told lair around 7 mins, then go up to 4 gasses, grab a 3rd at around 8:30 or so and get that quickly saturated, and simply defend with quick infestors and lings. Though even then, i feel that 9min pushes would be pretty lethal, i wouldnt have many infestors. I just dont really know how to infestor/ling, i was told by a guy but it still seems quite confusing for me. I prefer to go 15h 17g 17p, use good scouting to not die to barracks play and go speed first and get my gas once I'm fully saturated on minerals. Then I'll turtle on two base and macro hatch with 1/1 lings until infestors are out and then grab a third, unless I manage to kill off his hellions in the beginning. This way, I'm okay against any timings, and should have infestors in the event of a marine tank push. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On April 14 2012 04:25 tehcaekftw wrote: I just dont really know how to infestor/ling, i was told by a guy but it still seems quite confusing for me. First things first, if you haven't downloaded any pro replays of this style I would highly recommend it. Stephano and Destiny are notorious for this strategy even though it's been around for well over a year (Mr. Bitter was teaching it to people on his stream January 2011). If you don't know where to go then click on the Sheth replay pack" under Team Liquid News on the left column. I remember watching one game out of that set that was infestor/ling. The goal of the opener is to build a strong economy, get fast melee/carapace upgrades, and rule the map with a highly mobile force of zerglings. Infestors are great when dealing with marine balls, infested terrans are effective in breaking tank lines, and you definitely have the potential to overwhelm a terran opponent who over-commits. The ling/infestor army will buy you the map control necessary to take a third. In fact, you should be taking a third as soon as you clear out hellions from a factory opening. You will be getting a fast hive with your choice of ultras or broodlords. You should have 3/3 cracklings with infestors and your tier 3 unit choice for a very powerful late-game composition. Adding banelings is optional and many pro's use them to great effect. This style has a few disadvantages. Your only anti-air options are queens, spores, fungal, and infested terrans. This means you will see a lot of marine drops. You also can't keep the terran inside their base the way you can with mutas, so your map control can and will be challenged. You will need to be on top of your injects because a majority of your midgame forces will be larva-heavy zerglings. About the third base.....you're want to get that as soon as you regain map control (assuming terran has their natural - scout this). There will most likely be hellions, so you'll need enough zerglings to chase them off or a small number of roaches (see blade55555's guide for a decent roach opener). This delays tech slightly, but econ is a good investment. 9 minute tank rushes can get a bit hairy and I've seen pro's go mass ling, zergling/baneling, or wait for infestors with zerglings. It's true that you won't have many infestors, but this kind of rush should be scouted not long after they leave their base. +1 carapace is extremely important to have since a zergling can survive and extra siege volley. | ||
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Baseic
Netherlands310 Posts
On April 14 2012 03:44 Servius_Fulvius wrote: Thanks for the tip. Do you have replays or vods of yourself or others pulling this off? Sounds like it works in theory, but I'd like to see it in practice. The idea sounds better than what I've been coming up with, so I'll give it a shot. Oh, and I've been using a Ret strategy where I max at 13 minutes with 1/1, hydras, and burrow roaches. Given how useless hydras are to a deathball with more than one colossus I've been holding back and it's turned into a stephano-esque style with more upgrades and fewer zerglings with a 13 minute max. Nevertheless, maxing it is still pretty quick. In my last game I tried a base race and it ALMOST worked. I'd prefer to just take out the army since they have nothing behind it, but in situations when I'm less prepared or he moves out uncontested it's definitely happening. I haven't faced 2 base double robo in a while, so I do not have any replays that I know of. I don't know the stylistic differences between Ret and Stephano, as long as you can instant remax it should work I think. Though for the remax you must make pure roach, they build and move faster. Focusing on upgrades is a good idea. I would max wihout any zerglings at all, all gas into roaches and tech, minerals into drones, and later spines, lings are pretty much useless once they have more than 3 collosi. | ||
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Baseic
Netherlands310 Posts
I meant that before 15 minutes you're maxed. Any other reasons why my advice may not stand? You had your army on your side the whole time, if you would've set up a huge concave at his natural, you would've actually killed something. You need to spread creep to your front, you had a lot of resources, he was all-in, you should sac 30 drones to make spine crawlers right there, it's not like he has anything left in his base. | ||
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Xorphene
United Kingdom492 Posts
We all know to sacrifice overlords at common tech times to determine the tech path of our opponents. This is good, solid, common sense information. HOWEVER, the pro's don't do this! Sheth doesn't do it, Idra doesn't do it, Scarlett doesn't do it, Snute doesn't do it. Yet they are fully prepared to deal with all the common timing pushes - is this a facet of being upper GM/professional level that you can simply assume your opponents are going to play some kind of macro game and thus simply be prepared for the timing pushes, or am I missing something? :confused: | ||
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Dalguno
United States2446 Posts
On April 14 2012 06:44 Xorphene wrote: Ok this has been bugging me for a while. We all know to sacrifice overlords at common tech times to determine the tech path of our opponents. This is good, solid, common sense information. HOWEVER, the pro's don't do this! Sheth doesn't do it, Idra doesn't do it, Scarlett doesn't do it, Snute doesn't do it. Yet they are fully prepared to deal with all the common timing pushes - is this a facet of being upper GM/professional level that you can simply assume your opponents are going to play some kind of macro game and thus simply be prepared for the timing pushes, or am I missing something? :confused: Most of the time it will be subtle things. Say you scout a reactor on the barracks, you know it's going to be hellions, that's a given. But what if they aren't able to scout the reactor, but as they try to scout with a ling, it is denied below the ramp by 2 marines. You can make a decent assumption that he is going reactored hellions, because the terran has time to make only 2 marines in that amount of time before making a reactor. | ||
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jumai
Canada115 Posts
On April 14 2012 04:25 tehcaekftw wrote: Still need some help playing ling/infestor vs T. Just a couple of questions/timings and stuff; I was told lair around 7 mins, then go up to 4 gasses, grab a 3rd at around 8:30 or so and get that quickly saturated, and simply defend with quick infestors and lings. Though even then, i feel that 9min pushes would be pretty lethal, i wouldnt have many infestors. I just dont really know how to infestor/ling, i was told by a guy but it still seems quite confusing for me. Actually, from what I understand, Terrans have been moving away from the 9 minute tank/marine push because they think it's bad against ling-heavy zerg. It sounds like maybe you're trying put too much emphasis on the infestors? Especially so early. If you're struggling to engage tanks early on make sure you're getting your +1 carapace on time. During the timing window from +1 carapace to +1 vehicle weapons, zerglings can survive a tank shell... this causes his tanks to shoot without smart-targetting for no overlap, and every zergling that he hits twice is effectively one less kill. He cant upgrade +1 tanks before armoury, so you always have the option to upgrade first, but he gets 3 damage per upgrade in siege mode, so it's a 1-time deal. Also, you don't need to be frugal about ling upgrades when you do the contemporary style of ling/infestor, nor should you feel rushed into the infestor transition. The real strength of the build is that your army benefits from gas normally all game despite using all of it to tech to broodlord/infestor(/ultralisk). You want your infestors out AND your broodlings upgraded at ~19 minutes; since you're getting them on the way, you want your infestor tech and melee ups to bear as much weight as possible in the meantime. The concept is just as good no matter how you distribute the weight between them, so be flexible. | ||
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HoBb3
Sweden38 Posts
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On April 14 2012 06:59 Dalguno wrote: Most of the time it will be subtle things. Say you scout a reactor on the barracks, you know it's going to be hellions, that's a given. But what if they aren't able to scout the reactor, but as they try to scout with a ling, it is denied below the ramp by 2 marines. You can make a decent assumption that he is going reactored hellions, because the terran has time to make only 2 marines in that amount of time before making a reactor. There are also strategies common to various maps, so perhaps it's a meta-game thing as well. I'd like to know how Stephano determines P's builds based solely on the gases at the natural. Every time I watch a replay of his I literally say to myself: "What do you see, Stephano!?" then jump back and pause and look for clues. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On April 14 2012 09:37 HoBb3 wrote: Where is the best spot to send your second overlord in zvz on daybreak? Right outside the watchtower next to his base and i send my first overlord to his third after scouting his expand. I always put the first one at his natural to see whether he went 15h or 14/14, the second one behind his base which is reserved for scouting at his lair timing, and, and the third one to his third exp. | ||
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kingsleigh
United States32 Posts
I don't really know what I did wrong, I should probably have made a Spire once I scouted that Robo Bay, but I was confident that I could break his third and remax again if he decides to counter attack. Apparently that doesn't work. | ||
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Vralaren
Sweden130 Posts
On April 14 2012 00:41 Zhout wrote: Hi I´m a top Bronze player and I´m wondering what tips I could get that would improve my game. I have this 14 pool 14 hatch and then a fast rw, with this strat I usally beat every zerg and toss player but against terran they wall themself in and then come with this big shit of an army and crush me. Sorry if the post is a bit weird but I try the best I can. You shoudent go pool first vs terran. You want the economic edge and therefor u go 15 hatch. After that u can follow with a 15 pool 16/17 gas then overlord. Just mine 100 gas for ling speed then start mining minerals with them. U will need those minerals for droning third queen and macro hatch. Also remember to make 4 lings on each map. 2 for watch towers and 2 for scouting his natrual. If its a late CC 7-8 min hes probably doing some allin/tech heavy build and you need to scout with a overlord and prepare. Since ur in bronze i woud recommend double evo at 7 min and when they finish throw up 1 spore crawler in mineral line. If u need more help i do free coaching just PM me. i'm swedish so i will be able to explain the whole zvt matchup for you pretty easy :p | ||
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ETisME
12685 Posts
On April 14 2012 06:44 Xorphene wrote: Ok this has been bugging me for a while. We all know to sacrifice overlords at common tech times to determine the tech path of our opponents. This is good, solid, common sense information. HOWEVER, the pro's don't do this! Sheth doesn't do it, Idra doesn't do it, Scarlett doesn't do it, Snute doesn't do it. Yet they are fully prepared to deal with all the common timing pushes - is this a facet of being upper GM/professional level that you can simply assume your opponents are going to play some kind of macro game and thus simply be prepared for the timing pushes, or am I missing something? :confused: Given good overlord placement that can scout the gas and poking, they can have a rough idea of what is coming. For example, against T, the hellion count can tell a lot. Against P, you can know what is coming from seeing how many gas is taken in the natural if he FFE. If not FFE, then scouting the natural timing and sentry count tells you something as well. | ||
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WarpTV
205 Posts
On April 14 2012 19:03 kingsleigh wrote: Need help with this ZvP: http://drop.sc/159272 I don't really know what I did wrong, I should probably have made a Spire once I scouted that Robo Bay, but I was confident that I could break his third and remax again if he decides to counter attack. Apparently that doesn't work. You scouted his robo bay at 9:45 but did not make a spier until 18mins in to the game. your 2 queens in your main, had a good bit of energy close to the end of the game. But the biggest issue I seen was not forcing a army trade when you moved up to kill his 3rd, you where up 50 supply, The loss of the nexus is nothing for protoss there, He could just remake it. You have to knock his army supply down and snip a colossi or 2 to delay his push as you remax. When you tried this 4 mins later mid map He was much close in supply and had more colossi. You did not have time to remax at that point and your army comp could not deal with that. One way to have done that would to have split your army up at the time you push his 3rd @ 13mins. Attack up his ramp close to the natural and come in form the 3rd at the same time, That way you can get close in on his colossi, force 2x the FF, and have more spread out forces to limit splash, | ||
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LayZRR
Germany449 Posts
especially for zerg and terran it is hard for me to find such things. | ||
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Vralaren
Sweden130 Posts
On April 14 2012 22:51 LayZRR wrote: is there a list (just a list with supplynumbers/timings) for build orders? dont get me wrong i love all people that make the videos etc. i just dont have time for watchin all of them i rather just read the build and copy it. especially for zerg and terran it is hard for me to find such things. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerg_Strategy ? | ||
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LayZRR
Germany449 Posts
thank you very much. but some people told me that the strats on liquipedia are very old and not up to date. i am sorry if its not but i am a pretty big noob and i trust other people cause i think they know it better than me ....or at least i hope so :D | ||
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Vralaren
Sweden130 Posts
On April 14 2012 23:20 LayZRR wrote: thank you very much. but some people told me that the strats on liquipedia are very old and not up to date. i am sorry if its not but i am a pretty big noob and i trust other people cause i think they know it better than me ....or at least i hope so :D They are decent.... But u shoudent really follow build order too far into the game. U have to be reactive in all MU's. For example, in a zvz u scout a 9 pool. Ofcourse u wont go and throw down ur hatchery when u intended to 15 hatch. There a re benchmarks for evry MU. I recommend you to follow those and practise macro, not getting supply blocked and keeping minerals under 300 until 15 mins into the game. If u follow those rules and the benchmarks u will improve alot and fast  | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
In ZvT if I am planning to hatch first at 15 and a scouting SCV comes and lays an engineering bay at my natural, what would be the optimal response? I assume just lay down the pool? | ||
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